 Okay, get a may 40 here talking to Ronnie Goldman once again about my favorite book of the past year or so conservative claims of cultural oppression on the nature and origins of Conservophobia and one of the the great things that I learned in this book is that we all have hero systems Is that is that true Ronnie? Do we do we all have hero systems? Even you know someone with like a 90 or an 80 or a 70 IQ do we all have hero systems? Well, okay. Well, I've never thought about that question and it's it's an interesting one. I mean certainly You know, I don't have any people with that IQ I've met so maybe I'm speaking more from speculation than first-hand experience or or you know actual expertise You know, I mean we certainly all have have egos I mean, I sort of think maybe you know, you know some animals have the rudiments of an ego at a minimum But do you add an 80 IQ? Do you have a? Hero system. I mean Kenneth is it something? Which do you have some sort of? sense of Things objective importance which you to which you are on some level beholden, you know I don't know. I mean look in so far as we're talking about somebody who is To a certain degree defective in terms of the normal human capacity of intelligence, you know, I'm not sure to what extent that is You know IQ is correlated with the the affect structure, which I've I've I've called a Hero system, you know, maybe maybe it's not maybe it's something that would Have to sound trivial to us if articulated. I'm really not sure I would be speaking outside my can I think and What what can you tell tell us about your hero system? well, you know, I mean I the more with age and I look sort of look look back upon the background values that Propelled me to act as I I did I think it's certainly Realized that you know in retrospect and I write about this towards the end of the book that you know at the end of the day I have a sort of an adversarial Disposition and I think that you know, maybe it's maybe it's hubris maybe it's You can also characterize it in more favorable terms, but you know, certainly I think there was a drive to kind of Upend or out do or what up? you know the the elites to show the The weaknesses of of of the elites, you know, that's actually I think I In I think I in towards the end of a star star chamber I quote Nietzsche and I think he kind of sees that as the the hero system of the the philosopher and you know, I Think I did have a certain point of pride that you know, okay It would have been very easy in a Stanford Law School environment to take a you know, various reactionary elements of various, you know Economically conservative elements that's very much and much encouraged and you know as we've discussed, you know I'm certainly not a dime the wool conservative So I would agree with the the substance of a lot of those critiques and yet I kind of felt they were You know beneath me call that hubris or something else that sort of you know The real the real challenge of my implicit hero system at the time So they became articulate the later for the time implicit was to to upend the elites to kind of to expose the vice beneath the The virtue so, you know, I don't know if that's you know, maybe that's kind of parasitic on some level maybe it's kind of Not self-sufficient though, you know, our conservatives have argued and I've echoed to them in the book that is sort of a characterizing well a lot of hero systems on Of the left they have a sort of self-perpetuating character because precisely because They are such a significant extent defined by hostility to the hero systems of The right and I think you know what I what I was driven by why I took that kind of hostility But I redirected it against the left the left itself and in order to show the respects in which they are You know the academic elites are constrained by their own conservatism okay, so let me think out loud about a Typical hero system for somebody on the right in America today Someone with an IQ north of 115 So they may very well part of their hero system would very likely be God-based So, you know aligning yourself with God's will would be heroic And it would be a way of gaining meaning for your life that goes beyond your own Taughtry things, but you are connected to something eternal You're connected to God another typical part of the right-wing hero system would be love and identification with country So you love the United States of America. You're willing to sacrifice the United States of America You may well serve in the military for the United States of America You think that United States of America is a perhaps a shining light on a hill Showing the rest of the world what it is possible for humanity to achieve Another part of your hero system would very likely be Heterosexual marriage it would be about the the military should be a heterosexual institution having children who you try to lead in you know, parts of goodness and righteousness and hard work and You know making money and you saving for retirement Donating some of your money to your church or to your synagogue or two causes that you believe in These I think would be typical parts of a right-wing hero system in the United States Family God country and family Yeah, talk to me about What we might find in hero systems say among professors at Stanford Law School You were two years at Stanford Law School. What did you notice about hero systems there? Well, you know, they're they're hero systems. I mean they have I think it sort of it operates on You know to level us. I mean they want you know It is it is a the hero systems of the left are sort of they're based not on Adherence to authority that certainly transpires in the background, but it is claims to Hire to hire insight so and and there is a certain religiosity there or at a minimum a certain Spirituality so even though it is ostensibly, you know secular of course, you know many many conservatives have said that the the you know You know the left they believe they have overcome traditional superstition nevertheless Have their own commitments structured by a certain kind of Religion religion analog and certainly among intellectuals, you know, I think that was already set forth in the in the Republic a certain ideal of the philosopher kings individuals who are able to kind of That they have the the heightened self-discipline self-restraint self-control self-reflection to kind of control their Their visceral instincts they they they see the the conservative that you just just described God country and family that they kind of even though You know from the conservative point of view that that's very elevated But from the point of view of the left they see that as kind of an animal like Heterotomy they are kind of instinctually bound to these traditional values, you know, they can't sort of step outside of these Reflexive reactions. They have two things be it, you know sexual non-conformity or all the other things which they consider a Threat to this order they see that as a kind of animal like Instinct then, you know, and then that and so the way the way those on the left see the hero systems of the right is simply a corollary of the hero systems of the left which are based not on not on feel some kind of fealty of one form or another but on on reflection and An insight, but you know, there is there is in all hero systems. It may be The various degrees either implicit or explicit, but there is certainly in the background a Certain sense of of one's own superiority to rival rival hero systems, and I don't think you know the kind of You know, there's a certain idea they can achieve a certain kind of neutrality or maybe a Orals in commitments of public reasons, and they'll say well, we don't we don't expressly Deny your hero systems. We just want you don't want you to act on it But I think on a on a visceral level as I emphasize many times Many times throughout the book that there is there is this underlying symmetry there. I mean there are differences between The hero systems where there's an underlying symmetry as well You're getting me right I heard a certain echo of myself so I was a little concerned Yeah, that was I just got a FaceTime from my brother and I told him I'll call him back So let me let me read a description of Hero systems from the Academy of Ideas calm and the whole thing about hero systems comes from Ernest Becker His famous book the denial of death This is the terror to have emerged from nothing to have a name consciousness of self Deep inner feelings excruciating inner yearning for life and for self expression and with all this yet to die It seems like a hoax. What kind of deity would create such complex and fancy worm food So that's from Ernest Becker's Pulitzer prize-winning book the denial of death Which he puts forth and defends the thesis that the fear of death is the primary motivating factor behind much of human behavior Or as Ernest Becker puts it the idea of death the fear of it haunts the human animal like nothing else It is a main spring of human activity activity designed largely to avoid the fatality of death to overcome it by denying In some way that it is the final destiny for man So humans unlike any other animal are aware of their own mortality this awareness when reflected on Elicits levels of anxiety and fear that can be so debilitating that to properly function one must repress or deny their mortality The way that Becker suggests humans go about denying death is by striving for the heroic Taking part in activities which lead one to believe that they are part of something more than their physical body Something that will live on past their physical death and so grant them a form of immortality and for most people They're not going to create amazing art So what does that your average bloke do to live on so most people deny death by becoming Fully absorbed in their social role and striving for whatever one's society deems as most desirable Which at this time would seem to be money fame and status So as a vehicle for the masses to act out their urge for heroism We've got society as a codified hero system, which means that society Everywhere is a living myth of the significance of human life. It is a defiant Creation of meaning so anything you want to add to this description Yeah, I think I think you know, I think you would emphasize that of course, you know the I Wouldn't I would not not add to the description of maybe to draw out, you know a few a few implications Which is that you know, so you have and this is something that I try to do in the In the book. So what is that of course, you know, the the more idiosyncratic your hero system is The harder it is to sustain it as a hero system precisely because you are your conviction in it is sustained by others And so the more you deviate from the conventional hero systems the The less automatic that social confirmation is going To be and of course part of part of what you're trying to do the same your hero system is idiosyncratic It is to induce others to see things your your way But you have you have your work cut out for you, you know given given it's it's it's nature So we have sort of this, you know, it's also, you know, the significance of the concept of hero system is that certainly it Runs counter to the you know, the liberal enlightenment idea that people want Individuality above above out above all else is what you see people as if we adhere to systems You see that individuality is that in inherently problematic potentially good, but Not not always actually actually good and you know fraught with payroll certainly a lot more a lot more problem problematic than the liberals will will acknowledge At a at a minimum So that's Yeah, I think that's that's something that should be stressed Let me tell you about an experience. I had I recently went back to Australia for three months and I found right within YouTube videos you were you were in a kayak. I think yeah Yeah, within hours of getting back to Australia. I just felt myself like a completely different person and And when I would look up the LA times I maintain like subscriptions like eight different newspapers including the LA times I would read the LA times and I just didn't really care About almost anything that was being described as happening in LA Simply by moving myself from Los Angeles to Sydney, even though it was only a temporary vacation Almost everything that was pressing to me important to me on my mind that I was striving for in LA Was just completely removed from me in Sydney and all the news about what was going on in LA I just found I didn't care about so even a Geographic shift for a temporary period of time even when you go on vacation It can kind of reconfigure large parts of your hero system for sure And you know what well, you know that that reminds me in both the star chamber and conservative claims at several points I discussed Heidegger and His concept of being in the world. I think speaks directly to what you're talking about here Which is again, you have this enlightenment myth that which is that the real you is is something inside You know it it has desires which propels you to then Seek their satisfaction in the world whether the origin of these meanings is Is inside you but in precisely in the scenario that you are? You are describing you you see that it's not really that way, you know, this is I think I discussed this Accentually I think in chapter chapter three of conservative claims discussion of you know Heidegger and the social construction of meaning with Burger and I just earn a specker there too and sort of the pseudo pseudo pods Yeah, who you really are is always responsive to a set of Social meanings and there are different ways to respond to that but that is that is foundation and you take it for granted You don't see the the extent to which your inner sense of yourself is prompted by these outside callings precisely until you change those outside callings and you have that that that that weirdness and Just oh yeah, there's one more point that I wanted to I Forgot briefly, but now now I I I recall so I said the extent to which the idea of hero systems poses a challenge to an enlightenment conception of individuality. Well, it also may call up Upon us to reconfigure our conceptions of equality and expand that in ways that some people on the left are quite Uncomfortable, you know in the book. There's you know, we have we have you know certain certain groups in the country where you know crime is You know, it's higher than then with other ethnic groups. That's a statistical facts and you know hasn't always been that way but Certainly those on the left will say well, yes, that may be I mean truly we have higher African American crime They also hire, you know Hispanic crime. We don't we don't like that But you know before you judge you have to understand the total circumstances in which a disproportionate number of those people come from and put it in put it in context and One thing I argue in the book. Okay, fair enough, but in that in that spirit of Sociological sophistication You have to also be somewhat forgiving What what strikes liberals as the the you know unpalatable or toxic aspects of Conservative Hero systems, you know God country and family because the fact that we need to hear a system and for a great many people You know, that's what it's going to be It's going to be some variant of that the extent they're gonna have a viable, you know hero system at all again You know, there can be there can be exceptions just like they you know Yeah, you have some people who can who can be born in the poverty and and put themselves up in the bootstraps but they but liberals were recognized with the exceptions don't prove the rule and you know, then maybe if we're going to be tall tolerant and And understanding of people who commit crimes of people who can't pull themselves out of their bootstraps To escape poverty well, then we've also got to be tolerant of or at least I you know understanding to some degree at least people who are Implicated in in in hero systems some of whose assets we might consider toxic, but hey, what are they going to do? not everybody can have a You know a successful academic career and become an elite and and distinguish themselves Validate themselves in that in that way So, you know, that's that's that's the the paradox of conservative claims of cultural oppression that once you once you properly You have a more sophisticated understanding of human nature and you which calls on you to expand to have a You know a more capacious understanding of certain ideals like equality, you know Ironically, it would it would it would make the I have to make the honest liberal at least somewhat more Forgiving of conservatives Yeah, and when I was in Australia, I went up to tenum sands, which is about six hours drive north of Brisbane So it's it's merging on outback Australia, right? And and I was up there for a month and there wasn't a whole lot of social reinforcement for observing the Sabbath observing the Dietary laws being being an orthodox Jew, you know working around with it Yawaka and and Seat seat there was no reinforcement for that and It kind of sobered me to think that without any social reinforcement, you know My my fire for Yiddish kite would would disappear So 2,000 years ago the rabbi's taught do not separate yourself from the community because Someone who tries to practice orthodox Judaism on their own without a community to reinforce that this is you know The hero system above all other hero systems Without that social reinforcement inevitably people go cold in their Jewish observance For sure. I mean that's that's you know, I live I live in New York and you know I've now I live in I live in Queens aren't very many orthodox Jews here But remember years ago I live in Brooklyn. I live in Crown Heights, you know as I was going to the gym You know they get since I was Joe's they would always try to you know, grab my attention get me to you know Put on to fill in or or or whatnot, but yeah, I mean there, you know, they can be quite I mean there's variation, you know the Lubavitch or or tend to be somewhat more cosmopolitan, you know the Satmar less less so but No, I mean they they are they are producing social meanings I mean they have an intuitive sense that they are not They are not self-sufficient, you know, and that it's not just their individual offer that individual effort They have to you know sustain a community That reinforces those meanings and certainly, you know, there are documentaries about People who found that horribly oppressive and had a hard time breaking away. They basically experienced it as a as a cult More or less, you know, the leader senses deviance, you know, they send the hounds against you. You're ostracized You are criticized but you know Obviously, there are also people who are who are deep into it who do not feel it to be oppressive who are rendered More not less functional by the fact they've managed to you know narrow their horizons in a In a certain way. Yeah, I mean, I certainly you know Obviously given my own my own route, you know I've always the time to expand my horizons, but to you know to a certain extent as I try to reflect upon in the book that is Maybe a product of my own adversarial Disposition and and and certainly not something that I would hold out as a General prescription for humanity though, you know, we need those people too But but it has its costs When I talk to orthodox Jews and let's say the subject comes up like God or chosen as the Jews of the chosen people I'll often start talking. Well, we all have our hero systems and this discernible look of pain Comes across their face when I talk about how we all have our hero systems and Orthodox Jews have a particular hero system that the Torah was given by God to the Jewish people 3200 years ago and what makes a human being heroic is his ability to conform himself to the will of God And this is what gives our life meaning and purpose and transcends, you know, our own individual existence But the concept that this is a hero system provokes a look of pain and I'm sure the same would be for many other Believers including people who believe in a left-wing Ideology if you were to confront them and say that you know what you hold sacred and transcendent is just another hero system I expect that would cause them pain too For sure. That's that's in the nature of hero systems. They function, you know the extent that they are uh, not recognized as hero systems that they're, you know, their sociological uh, role is uh, it is ignored unless if you look at, uh Nietzsche and his understanding of of Judaism, you know, which I write about in that, you know, the critical theory of uh of academia it's it's how Judaism changed as a hero system over the millennia in reflection of of You know circumstances. So, you know, originally in his mind, you know, when you go, um Early into the history of the Hebrews, you know, the the the Davidic kingdom Even though, you know, certainly it's it's it's it's monotheistic and in that respect, you know different from the surrounding Paganism still, you know, we know that for a long time. There was a lot of paganism among the ancient, uh Jews, you know, they had they worshiped one god alone But then I mean that they denied the existence Of other gods necessarily the the original uh, hebraic hero system certainly was not uh as intellectualized and, you know, academic as it was Today it was, you know, they were like like like all ancient societies they were sort of, you know a warrior society and the conception of divinity was was bound up with themselves with their sense of themselves as, uh Warriors, you know, but over time you've got the the the collapse of uh the uh ancient israeli kingdom babelonian uh Caps captivity then, you know, some do we have independence then the romans and so sort of gradually like a Judaism uh Things that united it with all the other hero systems of the ancient world those things just became, uh eroded over time just because, you know, there's no possibility of Acting on them when they're you're this very very small people amidst these these huge near eastern empires and so you become more More religious more academic More, uh more aesthetic more, uh more a function of, you know personal discipline personal and and and communal Discipline and improvement as opposed to, you know, some sort of political or or or or military, uh Grander and so, you know, sort of it changed It changed it changed over Over time and then when you have the, you know, the birth of Israel feeling about the flag and that is itself and it is a sense An attempt to revise a hero system where they have the traditional, uh, you know two two blue Stripes of the to fill it whether you have the The star of David instead and saying like it's sort of an attempt to revert to something Something closer to the original, uh, Israelite, uh hero system as opposed to the more, uh intellectualized and aesthetic hero systems that was the sort of, you know necessitated by uh By living in the in the diaspora and losing, uh political autonomy Yeah, that's a great point in one circumstance being a warrior was the the epitome of You know, what is heroic but in another circumstance being a Talmud scholar is the epitome of what is heroic and they're both Come from from Judaism So I thought I'd just digress for a couple of minutes and just talk about the various hero systems that I have moved in And through and out and and maybe you can share some of your own hero systems that you've moved through So when I was a kid, my father was a preacher. So I wanted to be a something adrenus missionary I thought I'd go to india and the third world and convert people to jesus and that was my hero system Then I stumbled upon running marathons at age 11 and I thought I'm going to become a marathon runner I'm going to set the world record. That was my hero system. Uh, then I thought I'm going to become a great political leader I was reading books about Winston Churchill, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln And I thought I'm going to become a great political leader At eighth grade. I thought I'm going to become a journalist. So from 1980 which was eighth grade until basically 2007 I saw my primary mission Usually as being a journalist and saw that profession as the most heroic of all professions Then I got really sick in 1988 and everything that I was trying to do in life was stripped from me And so then I turned to Judaism and that's where I got my meaning in life It's like, okay, I'm not able to accomplish anything But I'm achieving these profound insights into the nature of existence Because you know all I can do is lie here in my sick bed And I realized that all that really matters is God and goodness and fulfilling the commandments And then I had some successes a blogger and I thought you know blogging This is like the epitome of a hero you're taking on the establishment and then a transition to vlogging And I do some shows with over 900 live viewers. It's like wow This is the you know the epitome of the the hero I was wondering if you could share anything about different hero systems that you may have cycled in and out of Yeah, well, you know, I mean I was uh when I was uh, let's see I I mean, you know, I Surely when I was when I was in high school, I was uh, I was on the school newspaper the phoenix And uh, you know already then I had an you know adversarial disposition You know, I wrote all sorts of uh articles. I mean they were very little little, you know Importance, you know, maybe I I would criticize the the parking lot policy Or you know, we would be handed these like pride pens for like, you know Uh various forms of conformist achievement. I criticized the money spent on uh On on on pride pens You know, so I had you know, again, you know, you You look back. You see you're a kid. You know, you're looking for something. It's not it's not based on a mature assessment of Of things important, but that that doesn't uh, that doesn't matter. You know, you will you will impute uh that that that that that importance because uh, because you need to you know, and I would say um Certainly uh If I think in terms of my my academic, uh, you know, the trajectory I was on for a for a long time At least, you know until I just sort of emerged at as a full-time attorney Certainly that was that was The the roots of that certainly were born in uh early uh early undergraduates. So, you know, I took uh, I took philosophy classes, but I also you know at the time I sort of started experimenting pretty uh Pretty uh intensively with uh with with lsd and other psychedelics, you know, it was just uh, it was quite by By chance, you know, we were in the dorm and there was this frat And uh, they came over and they gave us all these like invitations Hey, we're having a kegger this weekend come on over, you know, they're trying to recruit people And you know, we head out there and we meet this guy. He's not really a member of the frat But he's their friend and he lives there and he's a drug dealer and like, you know, this is you know, I'm I'm I'm 18 Uh at at the time and so, you know Definitely I and uh my crew on my hallway and some people I met elsewhere Definitely get into that. It's sort of a big thing dropping acid on the weekend going to uh, the arboretum this big this big park Talking philosophy. So I think like, you know It was all quite my chance. I'm sure that my life would be Altogether different if I'd never gone down that path, but that that experience, you know I mean, it's been both a big pro and a big uh a big God, I mean, I can see like sort of, you know, the the adversary of this position was certainly born there But I also feel that as a result of uh that experience That is always uh to a certain extent uh debilitated my ability to take hero systems Seriously, which is to say, you know, that's the problem the the the more your visceral awareness that these are human creations The harder it is for you to actually, uh Believe in them, but you do need to believe in them, you know, and that's and that's that's a problem And I think that in a sense those early experiences propelled me To try to in a sense, you know, generate my own uh, my own hero system my own kind of academic counter cultural Hero system, which is, you know, I guess, you know expressed in the in the memoir for the roots of that were were then were because you know the the You know, basically, you know, all psychedelics destabilize Your, you know, your your basic, you know, synaptic structures to sort of, you know Your organ your world is normally organized in a particular way, which sort of, you know ahead of conscious reflection Structures just how you see things and basically what what the psychedelics do they sort of, you know, they destabilize that for temporarily and uh that That those experiences that's put me in a position where I could not But you know try to create my own sweet generous sorts of meaning, you know Kind of, you know, recklessly that may be at a certain level because I was I was left with no no other options Yeah, and when you change profession You know the hero system often changes with you What one thing that is absolutely certain is that you you can't live without a hero system Even when I was reduced to my knees by illness. I still had a hero system Even when I was Sleeping around I had a very strong hero system when I was a successful blogger I had a hero system when I was an unsuccessful blogger. I had a hero system. I just had to adjust it So when I have a big audience, I think I'm superior because I have a big audience But I'm a small small audience. I think I'm superior because I'm willing to for go having a big audience to talk about the truth But whatever changes one thing that does not change is the absolute Biological necessity of having a hero system. Yes, and that's absolutely true. No, I what you what you're saying, you know, I get I get Very similar set of uh of experiences and challenges and realizations that I think with the memoir, you know, of course, you know my My fantasy on some level that, you know, it would uh sell, you know, huge amount I would have some sort of, you know, global vindication of this Silent struggle, you know, now I realize, you know, that it's not Happened, you know, I've I've I've sold, you know, I don't know 80 100 copies or something certainly some people have uh, you know, very much appreciated But it's not it's not caught on like a wildfire. And so yeah, so now I need to think of myself like, you know Yeah, originally a hero system required some sort of uh of vindication Now have to accept that, you know That that may not come but see it in a way where it doesn't detract from the enterprise itself I was, you know, a guy, I suppose a guy who had read the book and he had he had been to stanford And so some of what I said resonated with him and he said, well, you know, don't you know these things, you know Knows paying attention now it can take, you know decades or centuries, you know for this stuff to catch on Well, you know, I have to, you know, resign myself just realize like, you know, it's not I obviously have to find a way to push it. I can't just let it sit on, you know, the the digital amazon shelf you know, but I have to I have to kind of Reconfigure that entire effort and realize that there's not going to be some sort of, uh, you know automatic torrents of Praise and and appreciation Yeah, it's not it's not it's not gonna happen But you know, what is that does that does that mean? Yeah, does that reduce the value of the project or that mean it's so elevated that, you know, what can I expect? I don't know. I've got it, you know, I've got to see things in the most favorable light, you know As you just alluded to Yeah, like when I'm winning, you know, I think about winning is the Apex of my hero system when I'm losing I'm you know, I'm really winning because the losing is a winning because it's reduced me to reality And I get to see things that people are winning out there. They're just gonna miss so when I'm winning or losing My hero systems reconfiguring to make me, you know, the very epitome of what I could be Yeah, yeah, and it's uh, it's it's hard to reconfigure now today today's april 2nd 2023 I released the memoir exactly one year ago today, you know, it was only and that was only about, you know About four months earlier. I could I had actually finished the writing. I still feel like I am uh Not yet sure how exactly to You know reconfigure, you know, I don't I'm not I'm just not I'm just not sure I um I feel I've been absorbing that hero system for so long that even though, you know, I'm I'm thinking myself, you know I want to like engage more in you know, contemporary, uh, political Discourse it's not it's not so easy. I was in my world for so long that they try to like now Deal with the limited reception is received that just try to then but still Harness it towards um, you know, greater effort, you know, I'm still I'm still want, you know wandering about Sputtering about a little bit on that On that front because because because because hero systems are feel objective Once you have to move on to something else, you know, it It takes quite a while before you can really Reshape it in a possible way. I'm not I'm not sure that I'm I'm there yet Yeah, so here's something that's in the news right now in Australia a One nation member of the new south wales parliament mark latham. He used to be actually the leader of the opposition He he was in a race for for prime minister about 16 years ago But he's moved to pauline hansons one nation party, which is a nationalist party And he tweeted at a gay mp who'd complained that this or that was disgusting And so mark latham responded disgusting How does that compare with sticking your dick up a blokes arse and covering it with shit? so Mark latham was just roundly condemned everyone said this is absolutely unacceptable I'm just thinking about, you know, a large part informed by your book on The conservative claims of cultural oppression whether or not you find a particular act Disgusting or particular policies. I don't know about global warming disgusting Or you find mark latham's tweet about a particular sexual act is disgusting It all depends on the, you know, whatever is your particular hero system. There is no but there's no inherent biological Geological reason why any of these things is more or less disgusting than anything else It just depends entirely on the arbitrary nature of your hero system Yeah, I I mean, you know any kind of, you know From the point of view of, you know, any kind of traditional you know, uh Christian notion of like, you know, purity or so, you know, certainly, I mean any kind of biological act Even, you know, heterosexual as much as homosexual could be seen as kind of, you know, very very animal-like. So he's, you know His tweet, I think it kind of, you know, applied it rather rather, you know, you know, selectively But so what was see You say say, okay. Well, it's a homosexual act is is is disgusting too. But what was the what was the position His position that was being characterized as disgusting just the the general conservatism or nationalism was seen as disgusting Oh, no, the homophobia of his tweet was seen as disgusting And I'm just thinking whether you're homophobic or philo Philo homo or, you know, wherever you are on this spectrum There's no inherent reason why his tweet is more disgusting than the particular this or that sex act It's just all a matter of of somebody's hero system Wherever you stand, you're making a stand on you declared something sacred whether it's Tolerance towards, you know, all different forms of sexual expression or whether you are declaring what sacred is that Sexual expression should only be between men and women Yeah, there's a certain, you know, relativity there and of course, you know, uh, I I guess the liberal is going to respond to that and say exactly Don't you realize that, you know All these visceral reactions we have to things even though they may feel subjectively to be very compelling We have to realize that they are just that uh Subjective Feeling so, you know, what if we that's the question. Well, could we all tone that down? to, you know, lower lower the volume on those kinds of Of reactions, but I mean and that's but I think That's something most conservatives would say is it's kind of a liberal Ruse, right? Because, you know, in the end of the day That would create the order that the liberals Want and everybody, you know toned down there If they could if it's if it's doable that they they toned down their sense of the disgusting to, you know Volume one out of out of 10 I mean That would create a liberal society that maybe there there might not be there might be other things that you don't like About that society that are sort of the the side effects, I guess Of uh of that reduction to 10 people don't get disgusted with anything But that's also because maybe they don't really believe in anything strongly anymore generally um, so what is Maybe discussed is a necessary price of Any hero system and I guess that in so far as we need hero systems That we need discussed that I guess discussed is uh Is it inevitable? Um But then I guess at the end of the day, you have to look at it empirically like Which feelings of disgust have you know, remained mere subjective sentiments or maybe expressed as mere insults? Um, and which ones by contrast have led to actual violence and uh And mayhem and I guess, um, you know, look You know, look the the liberal response, I guess is going to be yeah, okay You know, we hurt uh, we hurt your conservative Feelings, but it's not the same thing as you know people getting beaten up or or lynched and so forth That's that's going to be the liberal response. Look for in the the the liberal view is that sort of the They can see our concierge systems at the end of the day conservative hero systems lend themselves to more To creating more tangible damage And injury than the mere, you know contempt of the of the liberal elite Towards towards conservatives. That's what they're going to say. You know, is it is it true sort of, you know empirically? um, even I guess even even if it were true empirically, you know, we're bound by hero systems like conservatives are not going to be able to tolerate That that liberal, you know contempt even even if It's right-wingers who are like, you know more likely to engage in, you know mass shootings or or the like I'm not I'm not sure about that. That's probably true, but I'm not I'm not absolutely sure right so you you could One thing that struck me was that to the best of my knowledge in all the discourse about mark latham's tweet No one mentioned that we're just talking about a conflict of hero systems I don't really think that would have added to the discussion level and said there was just a unanimous Vote in the media that this was absolutely disgusting and unacceptable And so yeah, you can then compete over which hero system is going to produce the greatest good for the greatest number Right. You can have a utilitarian argument or you can argue over which hero system is more in alignment with the bible Or you can argue over, you know, which hero system is more in alignment with, you know, John Rawls or the Australian constitution. I mean you have to find some arbitrary arbitrary standard which you can then judge these conflicting hero systems against is there anything you want to add to that? I mean, I guess you could say that in the end, you know, it's The the critique of the conservative hero system is that in in a sense Even if, you know, we we can see that that modernity even though maybe it has been our physical lives more comfortable It has caused various forms of psychological injury to human beings Which would be less rare in a traditional society at least in terms of the The average middle-of-the-road non-deviant human being is maybe You know better off in a conservative society In terms of the stability of the hero system and and yet These traditional hero systems though the problem saying well, let's go back to the past Is that well, what's the point of going back to the past when we know as a matter of historical reality? that the past led to the present So it's like you think well, can't we what can't we just go go back? But there's there's there are reasons it wasn't sheer bad luck or or cosmic accident that the traditional hero systems eroded in order to put to create this like, you know the company of meanings in In modernity they broke down for a reason. They were no longer, you know believable So, you know at the end of the day you you could say that You know the hero systems on the left you know the kind of the left spirituality though, you know the the yoga spirituality, you know commuting with all things sort of a cosmopolitan um citizen of the world, you know As kind of untenable as that might appear to be psychologically on a certain level just given the you know limitations of uh, human beings Uh, the crooked timber of humanity still that kind of uh, you know imperfection uh, maybe more tolerable than uh, You know a hero systems would depend on some sort of the deep Metaphysical belief, you know after after Nietzsche's death of of god. Yeah, their best conservative hero systems might be, you know more natural and more more viable on On some level, you know, that makes that makes that makes sense. I mean after all, you know, we we we emerged for from from apes who have a certain biological concreteness And liberal universalism certainly grates Against that at a at a at a general level. So, you know that that that critique of the hero system Of the left is is legitimate and yet Even though there's a certain, you know unacknowledged, uh, you know, uh unargued spirituality there It it doesn't require you to accept, you know What from a sophisticated historical point of view seems like, you know You know very dubious propositions about this religion being the you know, the the The true one, you know, it has the hero systems have had that going for them at least so Let's say someone is publicly engaged and follows the news and they're They have a hero system. They've got an IQ over 115. They read books. They have a coherent political ideology And so for a person like that, I would have to think that, you know, watching the news is Frequently going to be painful and your book helped me it helped anesthetize me from the emotional ups and downs of following the news to see whether my team was was winning or losing But I still even after reading your book, I still retain a hero system And I still have a sense that my hero system is, you know, contains elements that are, you know, objectively transcendently true But your your way of thinking in your book, you know, kind of help anesthetize me from the pain of, you know, dealing with a world which is frequently Violating my hero system. Do you have any thoughts on how the Politically engaged, socially engaged, culturally engaged, religiously engaged person with a coherent Hero system who does want to follow what's going on in the world How do they then deal with the constant pain of seeing their hero system Hero system violated Yeah, I mean, I know where you're coming from, you know, when I hear that I thought to my mind like, you know, okay, well I am here, you know upset that, you know, my book is not my memoir is not caught on uh to the degree, uh That I would have liked but I kind of Go back to the actual, you know, the The details of that hero system like like what why aren't you why aren't the rest of you? like Buying buying this book and affirming this, you know, I mean, obviously, you know I'm not gonna be of interest to anyone, but you've got a lot of like very, you know, visceral negative reactions to it As as as well. And you know, if I go back and I look at like the last chapter It's like, well, but I've explained all this. Why is it? Why am I so surprised? Why is it this huge mystery? You know, I've said that, you know Naturally the elites would dismiss this. They have no interest in Indicognize again, of course, I would be seen as a, you know, a conspiracy theorist, you know, or maybe at best Say, uh, I could have the book being a, you know, a tempest in a teapot um and So follows logically from what I've said That I the memoir would be in the position that I'm in. It's nothing. It's nothing inconsistent with anything I've said it was in fact predicted if I go back and look at the line and yet And yet because it is a hero system I still demand the universal I still the back of my mind would like to think that sort of, you know Deep down even though, you know, people told me, of course, you know, uh, it's just, you know, too complex for a lot of people Even follow still like deep down. I would like to think that my hero system has like Captured something universal or something something is wrong When other people Not enough other people latch on to it To the same to the same, you know, degree. So it's it's it's an irrational contradiction between the the heroic yearning to Be I don't want to even say like acknowledge that sounds kind of like, you know, whining and heteronoms, but let's say be vindicated uh, and and the realization That given that the the nature of your hero system and the diversity of human hero systems that It would not be reasonable to expect that and in in fact, even though Even though you need it um So I I I find myself to be in a a version of that Dilemma, you know as as as well. And it's just like a Contradiction that I'm trying to worm my way Out of it, you know, and uh, if you know, that's just that The path for better or worse that I've uh gone down, you know, who knows, you know, maybe maybe if I hadn't, you know Got that LSD as a freshman I would have gone on, you know, my family was to be sort of a, you know A journalist and right and right, you know, rye op-eds, you know, maybe I'd be Working for the new yorker today and like writing right op-eds or something like some more, you know elite but conventional Occupation, uh, that would have uh the tension that you've described would then would then be absent, but uh Uh, alas, you know, fate has has not has not taken me in that direction Uh, can one really embody? Can one really feel viscerally In your body An understanding that your own hero system is fictional I mean, is that possible can one read? Yeah, I mean You can't I mean you could you could you could recognize that Cognitively, but I agree that's sort of on on the more on the bit more Level, you know, you I mean it's very undermining to see this fictional, you know, that's what we call that's that's that's depression You know, you can't there is there is a a uh, and so you go out of your way To prevent a situation in which you would feel no choice, but to so recognize it in that Way, you know, little little things, you know, okay, so Right now, you know, it's not I have a huge number, but you know, maybe maybe, you know, probably myself through youtube, maybe write off ads find Find some way. Yeah, I mean, I I feel like I'm sort of on a on a In a race against time To to vindicate, uh The hero system, you know, that's not uh It's not an enviable position To to to be in, you know, much better to be in a hero system where you are in fact, you know, you are uh socially vindicated from the outset and you don't have to go out of your Way to generate that vindication or to try but you know Alas that that is the situation So you can't really transcend having a hero system. You can't reach such a state of knowledge that uh It no longer hurts you I I I I I I I I I could not, you know, I mean I thought to myself, you know Maybe I should go to a buddhist temple. Maybe I should go zed. Maybe that that is, you know, buddhism is the attempt The genuine attempt to you know transcend Hero systems, but you know In terms of I don't want to say no one Can I mean yes, you have you have those zed masters and maybe they have in fact, uh Succeeded it maybe they are not, you know, uh, a qualitatively different state rather than just another Hero system, you know, Nietzsche. Nietzsche thought much more of of buddhism than he did of uh, Christianity he thought he saw it as, you know, much more Scientific much more self much more lucid and self transparent Precisely because and as they recognize this problem, you know directly that we've been we've been Discussing, you know, and they just said well, we have discovered of all all hero systems not not replace one by But other that may carry its own cost, but they were at least it, you know Lucid about what they're doing Yeah, so do do Some people have a more intense Hero system than others or are we perhaps fooling ourselves if we feel like we have an ability to stand outside out hero system Well, I mean the the the the more the more, uh Unique, individuated, idiosyncratic, your hero system Other things being equal is going to be less intense Precisely because you know because you have to generate that because so much more of the of the conviction Has to be generated from within rather than being supplied effortlessly From from without so the the more individuated you are the weaker you are That's not that that's that's a misconception of uh, liberalism, which I've actually you know discussed at some length already my My my two orientations sorts human nature. That's my my first book after after grad school has sort of you know, there there is a uh Individuality has to be seen as a kind of uh, a kind of weakness A kind of illness Maybe one from what you're gonna, you know recover and grow from possibly but but but in in in in itself a liability a position Into which you are forced Into which people are forced By a lot of circumstances And they have to deal with more or less properly Not something that we would naturally be impelled to uh to seek out So how does the wise philosopher who also wants to engage with the world? How does the wise philosopher who believes that st. Donald trump is a moral threat To the health and the future of the republic. How does this wise liberal philosopher? Then deal with four years of the trump presidency What what are what are wiser ways of dealing with a hero system that is You know assaulted by reality on a daily basis Well, you know, I mean you have to realize that you know trump trump prevailed because there was Something in his in his character not his beliefs. I don't know that he has it has you know firm beliefs or something in his temperament which you know firmly resonated with Default human nature, you know, I have to go back to conservative claims of cultural oppression, you know, he is the Trump is the repudiation of the civilizing process um Of the discipline and refreshments of the buffered idea identity this idea of You know, he is I his hero system is I have these strong feelings within me. They are self-validating. I don't need to apologize for them I don't need to explain them Here they are. That's you know, that's uh, a very human Way of uh of experiencing things and something about you know, a lot of uh People experience things that way and you know, that's that's his uh, that's his appeal and why the Uh conservative invocation of wokeness Uh, here is so much power for Uh, conservative. It's not that you know, most of them are you know Truly being shattered down on a daily basis by you know the the woke the woke mob I mean you can find illustrations of that But it's it's you know, but I think symbolically not in terms of like people's day-to-day experience in terms of you know symbolically wokeness represents this hostility to sort of the very uh visceral animal like uh temperament sensibilities that uh that Trump uh validates which is also our you know our default state as uh as human beings and so you you want to you know, criticize uh You can criticize Trump on all sorts of uh levels. He has shoes you know all sorts of you know values that I hold dear and yet and yet my uh Research over all the years makes Trump uh very uh understandable as a uh a symbol of a certain self-acceptance a certain self-acceptance of the hero systems into which you are born And the the the defense of that self-acceptance against sort of these like you know higher demands that the uh the the elites would uh would impose upon people now Is it is it fair to say that it really doesn't matter unless a person's interested in politics or in an exceptional position the real life of Hundreds of millions of Americans is not really affected hardly at all depending on who's president. Do you do you think that's basically true? Um the real lot well, I mean it's It could be true, but it looks like insofar as people decide to make uh Trump or to make the the the resurgence of Trump part of their identity Then it's sort of like you know It it it does matter and it matters because he is he is symbolic of their uh Hero systems. So the way they articulate it, you know our lives, you know People can't put it that way to themselves. You will don't want to acknowledge that they are, you know Behold into hero systems. So they will articulate it, you know a more, you know tangible Level whether to be he will like, you know restore Job to prevent, you know various forms of uh mayhem be it transgenderism or whatever Whatever else a may it may be So people people represent their allegiance to trump in terms of certain, you know punitive Tangible benefits that he represents But the the real uh well spring of their attraction to him their allegiance to him Is uh Is is his symbol for a certain kind of hero system or a certain range of uh, you know systems which are a less uh less compromised by what experience conservatives experience to be these very uh, you know unnatural Artificial uh demands imposed by liberalism So one way of judging hero systems is do they enable you to be more effective and pass on your genes in life? And so I'm thinking about one woman. I know who was a volunteer for the Hillary Clinton campaign And when Hillary lost in November of 2016 she could not go to work for six weeks She was basically she took to bed for about six weeks So that would strike me as probably a maladaptive hero system and As opposed to say someone who was volunteering for Hillary supporting Hillary was devastated when Hillary lost But then you know went out and started marching in pussy hats and made like valuable friends and contacts And enhanced the quality of her life by by taking action But if you can't sleep at night because of news that doesn't have any direct effect on your life And you know if you if you take to bed because you find the news so depressing If you can't show up for work because you find the news so depressing that it seems like we are dealing there with a maladaptive hero system while I Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, I think so and I think for someone to have the reactions you've described They would certainly have to have a Vastly over idealized view of Hillary Clinton, you know, even he thought she was far better than uh, than then then then Donald from uh, you know uh Yeah, I mean you would have to see or something, you know better than the the lesser evil. Um It's become dysfunctional for for six weeks, you know I certainly uh Would not would not feel that way. But I but uh I think that that that that is an example of uh, the extent to which uh, hero systems are not, you know, idle, you know ideations that's that's sort of um, you know the the liberal attack on uh, Unconservatives that you know conservatives are I've been uh, bam boozled into these uh, is preoccupations with uh, purely symbolic concerns whereas, uh, Liberals are more tuned to you, you know, the tangible sources of actual, uh human welfare So, you know heroes, they see hero systems They are uh these illusory relics from a sort of a bygone pre-modern past that you know, unfortunately still live on uh Within certain segments of the population such as uh as conservatives But the example you you you just invoked shows that all of us have these physiological embedded uh hero systems that become attached to some uh very uh very specific things So you know as I as I stress throughout the book that that example hillary clinton, um It reveals the this underlying symmetry Uh between liberals and conservatives They're they're they're the mutual uh Beholdness to uh to hero systems Okay, so I want to use a couple of analogies here my wrist works So I can pick up a pen I can click my mouse my wrist does everything I want my wrist to do So my my wrist is working on the other hand if I am experiencing extreme anxiety Um about you know anything in the news that doesn't directly affect me My anxiety system is not working as it should like I should not be in fight or flight Because of decisions being made in washington dc that have no effect on my my life So do you think it's useful to one way to approach your hero system and perhaps to understand one's own hero system Is to think you know, is this adaptive or maladaptive meaning does my hero system assist me with getting out of bed in the morning Doing the things that I need to do in the morning Does it help connect me to the people that I want to be connected to Does it give me the strength and energy to do the things that I want to do Or does it undercut the things that I I want to do So is the maladaptive versus adaptive understanding of hero systems? Is that a useful distinction? I I think I think up to a point It uh it is I mean certainly you know any uh counselor or you know psychotherapist is going to tell you Yeah, that's exactly how you should uh Think about uh, is your hero system adaptive or maladaptive? The problem is that you know Hero systems by their nature Don't let themselves to uh those kinds of interpretations because it is the nature of the Of the hero That the hero is not going to see things that so you know quote unquote, you know petty Petty a level they're going to do what has to be Done, you know regardless of the consequences. So there is there's that inherent Again that inherent tension between our reflexive capacities, which would indeed aspire to Modify our hero systems to the extent uh, we can to you know make them more adaptive more uh more functional but part of You know vindicating through yourself through a hero system Is that you do not see yourself as? overly beholden to considerations of adaptiveness or expediency Generally because uh a hero a true hero would not be Right, but like when my team wins It gives me pleasure to watch the highlights And if my team loses, I generally don't watch the highlights because that makes me feel bad when trump won the 2016 election for fun I would like when I'd ride my bike doing exercise, uh, you know my stationary bike I would watch like the network news For for an election night and it was just so much fun seeing the liberal tears And so I watched like the election night news on three or four different channels But I have not watched Joe biden's you know election news because that would just make me unhappy. So we do have some ability to Turn our hero system up or down. So when my team wins, it does me no good to To understand this is just a game, right? That would just reduce my joy But when my team loses, it does do me good to realize this is just you know a hobby and something that You know likes any ultimate meaning. So I do think we do have Some capacity to turn our system hero system up in intensity or down in intensity Fair enough. I mean again, you have you know, human beings. We are always you know, we've evolved over, you know Millions of years. I guess we've been modern humans for a few hundred thousands of years And you have certain, you know, you have different systems within human beings and you have sort of the more You know primordial they call it reptilian or call it something else systems That that are you know, sort of, you know, very Very visceral and those are those are intentions With, you know, these, you know more evolved reflexive Capacities and they sort of you know, they they they they interact In in various ways and I wouldn't want to you know Say that either of those are you know, certainly are are unreal But the the problem with liberalism, I guess is that sort of the It it overstresses the one half of that equation. We're just, you know Our ability to modulate our, you know, our reflexive intelligent capacities to modulate versus sort of our more Animal like, you know primitive reactions Which which resist modulation and they're both they're both there You just given, you know, we have we have our default human nature We have the way society has strengthened certain aspects of that human age or the exclusion of Of of of others, uh, but I guess I mean To the extent, uh, I don't I don't think most conservatives, you know, they would they would Probably say there are profound limits on our ability to, you know Modulate our hero systems to the extent they're going to they're going to remain functional as hero systems Okay, uh, I would think for anyone with a You know strongly Hold hero system about politics that watching the news is going to be like a stress test So when you do a federal stress test, you get on a bike and you go to about 95 percent of your capacity And they kind of check out, you know, whether your heart can handle it Whether your system can handle that level of exertion And I'm someone who follows the news pretty closely because I enjoy it And so it doesn't usually stress test my my system because I've you know, achieved a certain level of philosophical detachment So here are some of the ways that I notice people get unhinged when they follow the news One they overestimate their ability to change things in the world Two they tend to overestimate the importance of the news Three they overestimate the importance of, you know, following the news I guess I'm just repeating myself there They overestimate their own ability to understand the news Because obviously there's a lot more going on in the news and we can possibly understand The news is just, you know, shadows dancing on the wall of a cave as opposed to reality Some people if they if they You know have a dysfunction following the news It's because they're denying reality Some people when they follow the news it deepens their pathologies Such as, you know, feeling grossly superior or inferior to others to a maladaptive degree Or feeling hopeless like the woman who was bedridden for six weeks feeling desperate because the other party won It can lead some people particularly young men to want to take grand action Completely detached from reality It can lead people whose news indicates that their team's winning or losing to get overly inflated or deflated People can, you know, identify too strongly with winning or losing when really the news is a very superficial And limited depiction of what's really going on in the world It can be tempting to lose your own individual identity to bigger entities than than yourself And so you you can lose touch with what you really should be focusing on which are the things that you can control You can use the news to try to hurt other people to put them down Or you can try to sell out to the mainstream news perspective to try to get Mainstream respectability if you feel like you're on the margins So those are some of the ways that I see people getting unhinged Dealing with the news and it's complex with one's hero system. Is there anything there that you'd like to come in on? well, you know, I I The the problems which you're describing Certainly real There are sort of problems which I almost uh I envy to a certain extent. I wish that I wish I had a little bit more You know because I have You know throughout the last I guess decade or so, you know Writing these these these books which you you you've read and like dealing with these issues on such a uh High level of philosophical You know abstraction even even when it comes to the memoir even even as as Concrete and visceral as that was I was still that was on a high level of philosophical abstraction, you know I kind of wish More so than I have that I would become More more kind of captive to these like news stories that they would sort of overwhelm My reactions a little bit more than they actually Are, you know, so in the sense, you know, I've I've uh, perhaps, you know cultivated my sense of Theoretical I feel for you know from my perspective. I may have you know Have the opposite vice of the one that you've uh described in that sort of I've cultivated my capacity for you know nuance and perspective And Relativization More so than would be ideal to the point that you know, I've made like, you know to youtube videos so far And I'm looking at it. I'm thinking you know, what can I do to improve? I mean everybody you know sucks when they start I know I know that but I'm thinking you know, I I I have a heart A little bit of difficulty just like fully believing what I'm saying just because in the back of my mind Oh, yeah, okay, but there's other perspectives to it. It's almost it's almost uh Too great a a a disengagement So I kind of you know The vices which you're describing are certainly real are certainly Possible from like where I'm coming from I would I would prefer to be Somewhat more compromised by those vices than I than I am because sort of the The insistence on objectivity and and perspective that can be That can be debilitating too in its way Now how does living in a multicultural multi religious multi racial society affect people's hero systems because you would think they would generally have an effect of Making people a little more aware of the fictional nature of their own hero. Yes Yes, and that is and that is that is the problem with uh With with with with liberalism was that yeah, you know With the way she would be need a certain degree of fiction But when you have different people are are playing out different dramas different scripts That that makes the fictional nature Rather rather rather salience that is really The the problem of modernity. It is the the reason why, you know Tolerance is easier easier said than done Um as well because in the end, you know, we have uh A liberalism has a very simplistic, you know, my My freedom between my fist, you know ends at your nose So it has it presents a A very very clean And overly simplistic Picture of how human beings affect Affect one another but they affect each other profoundly In as much as in uh, you know, in a in a modern heterogeneous societies. They Certainly threatened to undercut one another's uh, one of the other's hero system And uh, that that that that that that is a that is a problem. No question So there are advantages and disadvantages to believing intensely in the objective Truth of your hero system and there are advantages and disadvantages to Seeing the fictional nature of one's hero system So it's not like an individual is inherently better off Understanding the fictional nature of his hero system or not understanding the fictional nature of his hero system That that that Yes, I agree with that. Yeah. I mean there are uh You could certainly you you you could you you could you could certainly, uh, find many examples of uh The failure, you know, you think of uh, you know 20th century examples of uh, both both fascism and uh Communism certainly those are certainly illustrate. Uh, the the dangers of not recognizing your hero system is uh As hero systems, but you know, you can also find uh, very many examples of uh, of people maybe maybe People that we would consider simple people But they have a certain hero system and they've never been forced to question it And uh, they go through life, you know, maybe unglamorously but uh, perfectly functionally And uh, you know, um It's like it's not something with which I can identify You know, uh, it's not, you know, it's completely foreign to me, but It's obviously the the the the the case. I think it would be a great uh mistake. Uh, you know, and you certainly have this in uh Progressive education. It's an idea like can't really be fulfilled to the idea that you know, we want to you know maximize Uh, free thought we want to maximize questioning. We want to maximize Reflection, uh, certainly there are uh situations where that is indeed called for but uh, I I I it is not something which is uh, you know, obviously always preferable in itself So you are not calling on people to recognize the fictional nature of their hero systems No, you know, I mean if they're listening to me At all Then they may have been in a position where they you know, they have to Perhaps they're in a position where that that that is like raised to the Forefront and I understand that if somebody's in that position, they may they may you know They may have to do it and maybe I can provide whatever guidance I I have but I it's it's certainly not things that I would urge upon Anyone who's not already in that position. I would not go out of my way And uh, try to uh, proselytize them Uh to that I think you know, it's it's like uh, you know, Ernest Becker and I think I some of that some of that Some of my quotes from him in uh conservative claims, you know, like human beings, you know Uh, like animals your your your dog your cats even even you know Domestic animals they have they have much stronger instincts than human beings. You know, they can become uh And and culture you know systems already the sense the the human uh substitute For those those instincts. So certainly to uh, to argue that we should, you know, categorically try to Uh weaken hero systems and erode our conviction in them and and enhance our ability to see uh Through them. Uh, yeah, I certainly would not Uh urge that as a general prescription from uh for human happiness Far from that if you have to deal with it, you have to deal with it, but you know, uh, uh Yeah, I would not I would not we're not trying to proselytize to that perspective Yeah, okay. I might start to wrap up today's stream Do you have any final words anything that you'd like to hit before we wrap up for today? Um I don't I don't I don't think so. You you you've definitely sort of uh Help me uh articulate Uh, I mean it's been very very useful going going through this as I've been reading, uh conservative claims of uh Of cultural oppression that sort of you know as a as abstract as some of that theorizing It is the end of the day. I think it relates to Uh issues which were we're dealing with uh, you know every day even when we're doing something as uh, You know cotidian as as as you described watching watching the news and reflecting on Why we're reacting to them as the as we do Yeah, I'd encourage anyone who's not quite sure about what we're talking about is Reflect on what matters to you when you move Like when you move permanently when you move for a vacation Like if you move to another country just for two week vacation Do you carry the exact same cares and concerns and priorities that you had back at home? And I would say Really would you also when you change profession if your profession means something to you, right? If you're just going from one form of drudgery to another I don't expect to change in your hero system But if you change from someone who is intent on becoming a philosophy professor and you become a lawyer That's going to require a change in your hero system You're going to change if you if you up or reduce or change the the Direction of your religious Observance or commitment or if you change your your politics You will notice a whole rejiggering of your of your hero system. Is there anything you want to add on these themes? Well, yeah, I mean if you find yourself in that position then you've got a wrestle with the questions with which we're discussing but uh If uh, if not, then I would just say, you know, then count your blessings Yeah, okay. Thanks, Ronnie. Great to talk to you again. Okay. We'll talk