 Welcome to Start Up to Storefront, presented by Aurobora. All right, welcome to the podcast. On today's show, we're talking to Joshua from Edge Theory Labs. Thanks for joining for people who don't know what does your company do? We do ice baths. We have built the world's first portable all-in-one cold tub. So what that means is it's portable with a drop stitch inflatable technology similar to the stand-up paddle board. So it's really, really durable when it's up. You can put your full weight on it. You can stand on it. It's super durable. And the benefit is that it packs away into a backpack so that you can take it on the go or for someone like myself that lives in an apartment balcony and doesn't have a whole lot of space to put a big fixed wall tub. I can easily set it up there. And then the chilling unit, the chiller as we call it, plugs in a regular electric, hooks up to the tub and circulates the water, keeps it clean, keeps it cold. It's cold as 37. And also, one of our models has hot tub mode. So it gets up to 105, which we love. Oh, that's pretty dope. What made you want to start this? What did you see in the marketplace that obviously there's been a cold plunge explosion to some extent and cold therapy in general? But what did you see? It's an interesting question because it certainly was not something my cousin, who's my co-founder, and I concocted it up and said, we're going to get into the cold immersion space. It felt like it was one big accident waiting to happen. And I've noticed as well in talking with other founders that there's oftentimes a through line with that where it's like, it basically got to the point where we couldn't not start this. And that came personally from my experience with cold water immersion and what it did for me and my healing journey, which I'm happy to dig into to any degree of depth. Hey, let's do it. When did you first, I guess, discover or feel the benefits of just cold therapy? Yeah, well growing up in San Diego, I consider myself a sun creature. Like I love the warmth, the sand, and then I hated the cold. And I discovered this guy named Wim Hof, this crazy guy from the Netherlands on a podcast. And I heard him and his message was just deeply inspiring to me of the fact that we are in control of our own strength, health, and happiness. And that really resonated at the time. I had dealt with a lot of injuries growing up I had a near-death experience. I almost had to have my leg amputated from a really brutal injury. I had this injury called Compartment Syndrome, which happens from blunt force trauma. So it was actually from a high school football injury, a really rare thing. And there was a second injury on top of that that actually pushed it over the edge. And what that meant is that my muscle compartment basically filled with blood. And so there was no circulation going down my leg. Super painful, got really swollen, and finally got some more like, I need to go to the hospital to get some pain meds. And I get there, they did a test, and they're like, hey, we need to take you into surgery now. And we're like, okay, my parents are there. Like, can we get a second opinion in the morning? That seems a little rushed. And they're like, you can, but if it is what we think it is, then you're going to wake up with a dead leg and need amputation. Oh my God. Surgery sounds great. Oh my God, yeah. So at 17, that was a lot, right? A lot for me. It's at any age. At any age, no kidding. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then I, during that surgery, I had an out-of-body experience. And it was really wild. And it was definitely the beginning of my spiritual journey, if you will. And even since I was born, I had collapsed lung minutes after I was born. And I grew up as an active kid getting into trouble and broken bones here and there, but nothing more than the average. But then I had that injury a couple years later. I had appendicitis, which is normal, but they messed up the surgery and nicked an artery. So I was bleeding internally to get blood transfusions. Just touch and go for a minute. So this is like a theme for me growing up of just, and I had a lot of distrust in my body. And as a 19-year-old kid, I felt, I'm going to be in a wheelchair one day. What was the spiritual part that you felt like something happened? Was it a mindset thing? What did you see? Yeah, I think it was that it forced me to pay attention to what's going on here and get out of my head and into my body. Like, I didn't want to, for whatever reasons, but we live in our minds, right? Absolutely. We live totally up here. And there's this whole thing that's happening. There's this body wisdom that's whispering to us. There's this connectivity that we can have with our mind and our body that I believe can give us a lot of insight and answers. And so what it basically did was it forced me to pay attention and it forced me to be like, all right, I got to deal with this and I got to get on this path of being healthy. And what does that mean? What does it mean to be healthy? What does it mean to be well? Mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally? So yoga was the big trajectory changer for me where it was the first time I was like, whoa, body, I love you, thank you. You've been through so much. And I started feeling some flexibility and some movement. So I went deep down that path, became a yoga instructor, and I just followed the learnings. And then that led me to going on a Wim Hof method retreat out in Iceland. And that was when it felt like that was the last, that was like a big piece of the puzzle for me because I'm a big advocate and proponent of following the breadcrumbs. Like something interests you or you're passionate about or peaks your interest. Like follow that. There's probably something there for you. So it's almost like you had the body, right? You had it conditioned. And now it's like, let me see if I can control the mind or quiet the mind. Exactly. And let me see if I can quiet the mind and I can get these two to work in unison, right, as well. What was the journey like? So you're in Iceland. What is the program? What are you doing? Yeah. So it was with someone who's become a close mentor and a close friend of mine. His name is Joran de Brown. He was one of Wim's, he was Wim's first instructor who started doing retreats outside of Wim himself so early on in the organization. And it was a former pro soccer player. He's got an amazing story. And it was with him and it was a week-long expedition. And it was intense. We did deep breathing sessions in the morning and then in the afternoon we would go out and do different adventures in the Iceland terrain. So a lot of cold exposure, right? So we would be going down to the lake, going in, doing shirtless hikes. And it all culminated with climbing the mountain. We climbed a mountain on one of the last days in nothing but shorts. And that was just a moment of pushing, kind of recalibrating, resetting the boundaries of what we think we're capable of doing. It's like you think that's crazy, climbing a mountain in nothing but your shorts and freezing temperatures with wind, gusts, and the minus temperatures. That's nuts. But it just reset that threshold of just how strong, how beautiful our bodies are, how intelligent we are, how capable we are, and what we can achieve when we're really present in our body. Because that's the only way you can do that is just be super present. Unfortunately so, yeah. Right? Yeah. And then you reach a pain tolerance that's sort of a mental mindset that's just probably unparalleled to anything you were experiencing before. Absolutely. And how did this make you, how did this change your mindset in terms of sort of maybe you feeling like your body, like there was something wrong with you or like you were accident prone, as someone would say, or how did that, how did you sort of wrap your head around this for the first time? I love that question. And because it was a total resetting of that, it was a total resetting of that and it was a total, oh my goodness, my body's actually looking out for me. And in fact, so much so that it's leading me to be in this close connection with my body and my mind. Like this is helping me and is reframing that instead of like my body's failing me. It's like, no, our body gives us feedback. It's like a check engine light in your car. You're not mad at your car for having the check engine light. You're grateful. You're like, okay, cool. I got to go take a look under the hood. It's the same thing. I'm having these check engine lights light up all over my body. And I'm just like, body, you're failing me. And it's just like all my body wanted was for me to take a look under the hood. And in doing so, it opened up this portal for me of real deep healing and real peace, real mental health, true mental vitality and well-being and a passion for something that led me to start a business for as well. Yeah. And there was this one moment when we were doing a breathing session, the first breathing session there in Iceland. Have you ever done any? Sure, absolutely, yeah. So I'm laying there. It was my first time in Iceland, of course. I'm a bit of an extremist in that way. It's like, all right. My friends were like, all right, Josh's going to Iceland. Cool. There you go. I love it. So it was just one of the things I felt right. And it was like, this is uncomfortable, but I feel like I need to take this step. And so I went and in that first breathing session, I started, you know, I was breathing, breathing, started losing track of time and space. And all of a sudden, right at the site of where my appendicitis scar was, I felt this like little tingle and this like little tickle. And it like slowly, I just like kept breathing into it. And it slowly worked its way up, up, up, up, up to my throat. And then I just started crying my eyes out, just absolutely bawling, hysterically crying, like I've never cried before in my life to that degree. And then all of a sudden around each of these different surgical incision points and points of injury, they all just felt like I was feeling the energy move through my body and release through this crying, right? And I was just like, I got out of that. And I felt the lightest, my shoulders were dropped. It was so profound and truly life changing to feel that, not only from that release, but also the fact that we have the ability to influence our body and our nervous system holding onto these things and how our body can hold onto certain trauma and memories. And we can have the also the influence to be able to release that. And there's practices and tools and holistic ways to be able to help move that stuck energy. It's almost like the scar tissue mentally and physically was leaving you. Well said, well said. Exactly. That's pretty wild. And so I was just like, this is crazy. I was just laying down breathing. Like I didn't take any drugs. Like I didn't like, it felt like I did. It's not an ayahuasca ratio. Seriously. And it felt like I did. But I'm just like, wait, this is something powerful here. There's something here. And then we couple that with the cold. And then going into the cold and feeling a clearing and a shedding and then getting into the cold and feeling the strength and learning this lesson of strength and surrender and being able to breathe and relax into the intensity of the moment. And the combination of those two things, I came back and I was just like, this is wild. Like these are tools that I'm taking with me. And I became passionate about sharing with others. Eventually became a Wim Hof method certified instructor, leading retreats and just super deep down that rabbit hole. And eventually got tired of buying ice. And then that's what started the story into us actually founding the company. That's so amazing. First of all, it's a great story. It's a great backstory also because it's almost like you solved your own problem, which is what generally entrepreneurs try to do. But for you, it was also spiritual journey, mental journey, a healing journey. And then naturally you want to share that with the world. That's right. And you probably saw on the marketplace, it's like buying ice can get kind of tedious and then buying an expensive, or they can be really expensive to buy like totally, you know, these blue cubes or these other devices. And so then what was your first step in being like, okay, I'm going to go start a company, but I want it to be, you know, an affordable luxury for everyone. Yeah. Well, the first step into that was coming back and trying to convince my roommates to let me hack a chest freezer and put it on our balcony. Sure. Okay. Apartment. All right. That's what you did. So you tried that? Yeah, I tried that. They shot it down. They thought I was crazy. So I'm grateful that they did. I wouldn't be sitting here otherwise. And then I went to my cousin. My cousin Rob was, he's like a very handyman tinkerer kind of guy. And he, him and I were training for our first triathlon at the time. And so we were pushing our bodies. And when I got back from Iceland, during that started being like, hey, we're going to 7-Eleven. We're getting ice bags and we're putting it in and started doing that. And he got hooked on it too. And so we were both hooked on it. And so I said, hey, can you help me build a chest freezer? And he didn't understand the concept at first. Like he didn't get that there was like a Facebook group with thousands of people trying to hack these things because otherwise you're spending 10, 15, $20,000 for the big fixed well tub. That was the only thing that was on the market. This was before the plunge was around as well. And so he was just like, no, I don't want you to electrocute yourself in there. Like lock yourself in the coffin. Like that sounds like a horrible idea. That's very pragmatic. Totally. And so he's like, well, let's, let's build like, like let's do a DIY tub. So we did a DIY tub with mostly above ground pool equipment and build something and it scratched the edge. And we're like, cool, this is awesome. And then it started failing, of course. And we're just like, ah, but wouldn't it be cooler if we could do this? Or like, how do we get the filtration in here? So it was just really like, this was even before we were like, we need to bring this to market. It wasn't until we were like, okay, cool. We see there's a path to make something for ourselves. And then we saw, wait, this could actually fit really well into the market because plunge had just launched at the time. So they, they were showing that there was a market for this, you know, middle tier $5,000 at home cold plunge, which I was shocked to see. I was like, amazing. Like, I would have bought that. Like if that was around before, I would have bought that and called it a day. And, but that wasn't around. And then the other part was, I live in an apartment with a balcony. I can't put that up there even if I want to. I'm not going to try to crane something in. So like, how do we make something practical, more practical in that way? How do we perhaps make something that when we go up to drive up to Santa Cruz for our next triathlon, we can load it in the car and take it with us. Like that would be cool. And so we started thinking about how can we potentially introduce something portable that is also self-cooling and self-cleaning. Like that would be cool. And we discovered that we could do that through isolating the tub that holds the water and then the chilling unit. And so we worked for two years in designing that chiller unit, brought the first of its kind to the market that had the filter, you know, we brought the filter housing inside. So it was just one tube in, one tube out that connects to any, any body of water and plugs into regular electric. So we started having these parameters of like, okay, it'd be really cool if we could do this, this, this, and this, and we can make it one horsepower. So it's four times as powerful as the current offerings on the market. Like that would be awesome. And we can make hot tub modes. So we're just like, what are all these cool ways we can do it? And then we stacked, we had this value stack and said, okay, I feel confident that we can spring this to market and somebody's going to buy it. We still had no clue that it was going to take off to the level that it has. But at the time we were just like, we think someone's like, that's a pretty compelling offer. And it was, it was the best offer at the time. During your two years as you're going through sort of the R and D and trying to get it right. What did you learn that like the current market offerings don't have? And so one of the things I've learned is some of these pumps, for whatever reason, if you put the water to a degree that's like a little too low, the pumps don't like it. And so they stopped working at a certain point. I don't know what that degree is. And obviously there's a whole range of how these pumps are made and they're cheap enough to replace. And so that's the other problem where it's like they're not perfect. Which is annoying from a customer experience perspective where you're like, what do you mean it's not perfect? I spent whatever on it. Totally. And so what did you learn during that process where it's like, wow, the science isn't here. It just doesn't exist yet. Or what needs to be refined? What did you learn? Yeah, I think that the biggest thing for us was being able to bring in the filtration into the same unit, into the same box as cooling because one of our earlier prototypes and most of the other ones out there, it's like those are separate pieces, like even in a big fixed wall tub. Like there's a lot of different pieces in there and different points. And so that felt a little clunky because then you also need more more, you know, poses and tubing. Yeah, exactly. And there's just more failure points and there's a lot more happening. So for us, I think the big opportunity was how do we bring that filtration into the same unit that can do cooling and also heating and be powerful enough to work in a commercial environment? So it was like those power, it was power, portability, purity in terms of keeping it clean and then the price point. Those were like our four P's that we zeroed in on. And then what was your first product? What was the first one that you came to market with? So we came to market with the Edge Tub and we now have two variations of the Edge Tub. We have the Edge Tub Elite and the Edge Tub Legacy and what we realized through the first beginning of selling that product was doing amazing and we also wanted to innovate and have something a little bit more affordable, a little bit more entry level and something that could be a little bit lighter, smaller, easier to maneuver around. I mean, as in hardware, you start to do that as you keep innovating and you're able to make parts smaller and more efficient. So we introduced the Edge Tub Legacy which is our standard size tub with a cold only chiller because a lot of people, a lot of residential, they just use it on cold like hot tub's cool but a lot of people, the majority of people that are coming to buy the cold tub are buying it for the cold tub purposes. So we're able to do that and then shave off some price point there for our customer which is great. So that's our entry level now, the Edge Tub Legacy. And how much is that now? That's $4,500. Okay. Yeah. And then we have our Edge Tub Elite which is $5,500 and that is that one horsepower commercial grade compressor and that chiller goes hot and cold. That's a big pump, yeah. It's a big pump. Yeah. And then it also has the option to do an XL Tub. So the XL Tub was something that we realized very quickly especially as we started working with a lot of athletes and professional sports teams. Like the tub itself was great. The standard tub was great for anybody up to six foot three. You can be in there full immersion. No problem. It's comfortable. Once you start getting above that it's a little tighter. You can still do it just gets tighter. And so we realized there was a need just across the industry as well to have a bigger tub. So our XL Tub is just absolutely bang and it's awesome. There's nothing like it on the market in terms of its size and its depth and its comfortability. Fit two people in there comfortably. You can fit, you know, we have seven foot NBA athletes and NBA teams and NFL teams that travel with it and use it. And so they're putting their big boys in there. And when you first launched this were you guys funding it yourself or did you go for funding at some point? So we took out a loan and in the beginning to get it up to the point my cousin and I funded everything to get to the point where we were like, all right, it's time to like press go on this. And then we took out a loan that we've converted to investments since then that helped us push go on our first production run, the first half of the first production run. How many did you make in your first production? 50. And that felt like, and at one point we were just like, maybe we make 20, like 50 is the right number because like eventually we'll be able to sell 50. Like eventually, like it could take some time but eventually we'll be able to sell 50. And where are you guys storing this? And so well, we have a 3PL, a third party logistics warehouse in San Diego that handles that side of it thankfully because I was going to say, is this in your apartment too? Yeah, yeah, seriously. But so we took out the bed, basically we were like, all right, cool, we're going to press go on this. And in the meantime, we'll sell on a pre-order, right? And we'll sell with a great launching discount, sell on a pre-order and see if we can sell it out. And within 60 days we sold it out. And we were like, whoa. Yeah, we sold it out fast. And to who, like who was your customer? Who would, what surprised you when you went to market? What surprised me was very early on we realized people were going to buy this without seeing it in person. In the beginning, we were hitting. That's true. It's kind of a big thing. It's a big thing because in the beginning, like every sale that we made was coming from us working the half marathon booth over here. We're going to the Ironman Village and setting up a booth here or we're doing demos for friends and family. And I thought it's a $5,000 product and it's a physical product. People are going to need to see it and get into it. So we were starting to build out this whole strategy. Like a mattress store. Exactly. Yeah. And so we were starting to build out this whole strategy for building out a field market, a massive field marketing team. Okay, this is what it's going to take. Like it's going to take tireless weekends of activating events. That's the TPG mindset, the tastings. That's right. Exactly. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, I'll never forget that first order that came through and I was just like, hey Rob, did you talk to this guy named Ryan? He was like, no, did you? And I was like, no. He just came through and purchased. We're like, what? He found us on Instagram, came through and purchased. And that was like, whoa, light bulb moment. People are going to come through and purchase as like an e-commerce product. They're going to come through and purchase and ship it. So that was super surprising early on and then that allowed us to lean deeper into building out digital strategy and organic strategy that has just totally crushed from day one. We did all organic for the first year and just building that base. So that was the most surprising thing right off the bat. That's pretty cool. So what is part of your digital strategy? Because I know you can lean into the science per se, you can learn into your personal journey which I think is really captivating actually. Like it's unique to you. It's like no other founder is going to have that story and that's personal until there's a clear, like you're coming across pretty honestly. Right, that's a great point. It clicks. Yeah. And so what is your digital strategy in that regard? Yeah, our digital strategy in that regard is aspirational content in terms of showing like really and highlighting stories of people that are pushing the edge, pushing the boundaries in areas of their life, whether they're pro athletes, whether they're every day, high performers, whatever that might be. So it's a mix of I would say science, like there's different pillars to it. Science and education is definitely one. You know, highlighting team, personal story is definitely one. And then product of course and product is big, especially in the space that we're in, leaning in on product is everything. And then the way that we all bring that to life is like with a really premium aesthetic and a really high quality way that our director of marketing, Kat, has done an incredible job with since day one of building out and executing on that vision and partnering with other types of influencers and athletes and celebrities. That's helped us grow and get to where we're at today undoubtedly, especially from the digital side of being able to be able to do an exchange, a gifted exchange where we give someone a unit and they're making content around it. And they're gonna be willing to make a lot more content around it because they really want the thing. And it's a higher ticket value of course. It's like sending someone a beverage or a snack pack or something like that. That's just so awkward by the way. It's like I'm casually drinking this. It's like no, you're not. It's like someone's recording this, which is so weird to me. That's really interesting. And so where does your mind go? So you got customers, you got a strategy working. Is your goal, and I could totally be wrong about this, to democratize this? Is it like you want to make it as cheap as possible so as many people can enjoy it? Or is it like now you have some traction. What else can you do? Where else can you take this? How big of a, what's the sort of, where does the strategy go? Yeah, it's a great question. One of the things we identified early on as we launched and after we launched, you know, the Me Too's and the knockoffs started coming very, very quickly. Yeah, so fast. And yeah, if you go on Instagram now, it's just fun. It's everywhere, right? It's like you get to your algorithm and you're seeing ice baths left and right. And we decided, we knew really early on that there was going to be, we didn't want to partake in a race to the bottom in terms of trying to have the cheapest product out there because we wanted to make sure that we're able to support it firstly from a customer service standpoint and stand behind it and have super high quality. And the reality is right now at least without major, major innovation with Aquaponics and Aqua Chillers, there needs to be a major step up to really democratize it and having self-cooling, self-cleaning. We're really at that threshold already. And sure, we want to continue to bring it down over time, but that's going to take lots of time and lots of iterations and major product development. So what our focus really is, is to continue to build out a suite of other innovative, trustworthy products for the everyday high performer, for the person that is really valuing the recovery, their longevity, their well-being, their sports performance, and you fall in that spectrum. So there's other products right now that we're working on that we're really excited about to bring to market. So it's really innovative. Nothing quite yet, nothing quite yet, but I will be very stoked to share once we do, once we do announce. Give me like a cool story. So it's like, let's say somebody buys one, cool, they have it, they're using it for the first time. Where do they go? How do they, like, what's the, give me the unpacking, give me the filling, give me how long it takes to get cold, give me the customer journey. It's great. So we, the cool part of our product as well is that it comes via FedEx or UPS. So it comes right through door and three boxes it comes. So it doesn't come in a pallet where there's massive delivery. You need to get scheduled and you need to have, you know, a bunch of friends come over or hire someone to help move it to where it needs to be. Yeah, I've been there. Yeah. So it comes right through door FedEx. And then it comes in, one box has the chiller, another box has the tub, because the tub packs down to a really small box, like 30 pounds, right? So the tub box is pretty small. And then there's another box that we have that, we want to make the unboxing experience feel premium and feel exciting and feel like you're joining a part of something. So we have this really beautiful box that opens up. There's a hat in there. It's got your sanitizers, you know, your oxidizer. It has your filters. It has valves. And then there's like some cool takeaway postcards, some really cool branding, our definition of legends as we refer to legends spelled with edge in the middle, is what is what we were, how we refer to our community of people that are constantly pushing the edge and pushing those boundaries. And one of the things it says on there is, to them, you might be crazy. To us, you fit right in. Welcome to the family legend. And it's just like this way of, you know, if you're spending $5,000 on an ice bath, like you're probably an outlier in your group, right? A hundred percent. Like you're probably like, what, you're doing what? And so we are really cultivating this community and when we have our community space where we do breath work, we do group plunges, we do different types of educational resources and that's important to me as well. But we want to bring people in and be like, yeah, you're not the only, you're not the only so-called crazy one out there. And with that becomes that community. So that third box is I love and it's something that we've had more recently. So you get that, you open up, you scan the QR code or go to the website and then you follow this, it's a seven minute step-by-step video. It's like nine steps within, first time setting up within 25 minutes, you'll be fired up and ready to rock. Once you do it more than once, you can do it pretty quickly and you know, like I'll do it in nine minutes now, I think is our internal record in nine minutes for the whole setup and filling and turn on process. That's pretty good. When you were saying that, it made me, I don't know why I thought this, and so I have to share it with you because it was like, you buy it, the unboxing is so key and you took advantage of the moment. And I don't know why in my head I went like, it's almost like a MacGyver toolkit, right? Because in some way you're, you know, and so I just thought like, oh, in your head I visualized where maybe it's like literally, not a brief, but like a toolkit and you open it and it's got like the valve, it's got your oxidizers, your filter, and I was like, oh, that's dope. And then in my head, I was like, then you carry it with you. That's cool. And that's like, right? So it made me think, I was like, oh, that's really interesting how you're creating a moment out of something that can be like a valve. Right. You know what I mean? Yes, absolutely. So my mind went there, which was interesting. And then do you guys have like a, is there like a Spotify playlist or a playlist where you're maybe on your website where you do the breath work? Yeah. So we have a, through the platform called Circle, we have a, we have our legend Circle. And so on there we have guided audio immersions, which are awesome. So it's like, it's designed with really high quality audio equipment and background music and breathing. And we take people through our edge sequence, if you will, which is something with pre-cooling. So before you get in the tub, a couple of breaths, your actual intra-cooling. So in the tub, instruction, and then post-cooling. So that warm-up period. So that's a framework that we've brought and we run with. So you can access. Can you charge for that? No, we give it to all of our community members and that are in our ecosystem. And then we do two or three times a week, we do live breathing sessions, our director of coaching and performance, a guy named Samuel Whiting. He's amazing, one of the top in the industry truly. He was one of the first North American Wim Hof Method instructors. So he's got a lot of experience. And so he's on there. One of our ambassadors is on there two to three times a week leading. Can someone like me join it? For you? Yeah, maybe. We'll talk about it. Because that's the one thing I've always wanted. I'm like, it'd be really cool to connect this. And not every company does it because they're attacking it from a different vantage point. And so a part of me is like, ah, how do I get that with that? Well, that's something that, that to me is something when you talk about democratizing like that to me is something that that I'm really passionate about. And I think there's a big opportunity to do so more of that, which is how can you know, how can we give that? Because because we recognize that we recognize that everybody out there that's getting started on their cold immersion journey or whatever stage they're at in their cold immersion journey can benefit from not only the resources of the instruction, but the community around it as well. And so that to me feels like there's a lot of scalability around that and something that we're increasingly putting more at time energy and resources into building out because there's not anything quite like that out there. And that's what I think about too. Like just from a macro level, no one's won that space. Right. And it's a whole different space, but it's like very tangential can serve as a Trojan horse in some way. That's right. And so it's like exciting. Yeah. And no one's won it yet. And then there's also like from the business, like the game of playing business, like the, there's a fun part of that too, which is like, it'd be really cool to have somebody sitting in another tub or it doesn't matter wherever they are or whatever they're doing. And then they're tuning into our programming. Like that's cool. It's because we can be able to reach so many more people. That way. Yeah. Yeah. Any dream collabs or any collabs that you're pretty pumped about? One of my favorite collabs I'm pumped about right now is with Woop, so the wearable tech company. We've, we're very grateful to be partnered with their, with their performance department and their Woop labs. So they're Dr. Dr. Kristen Holmes, who is their VP of performance. We're working on some really cool stuff both from some forward thinking research that we're looking to conduct in the space because there's a whole white space of opportunity. Big time. Big time. A lot of old science. Yep. They've got a couple of our tubs out in their Woop labs in Boston right now. So that's a fantastic collab and just, I love the alignment and how they think about, how they think about their research and their science and furthering and bringing more than just a product. Like that's something very aligned to what we say being more than just a tub. That's really important for us. So, so Woop is what I'm really stoked about for sure. And let's stop. So when you go in it, like, Yeah. I guess I'll just talk about my journey and then Sure. We can talk about yours. So for me, it was always like, I started at 44 degrees doing six minutes and then I just kept trying to do six minutes at lower temperatures. Yeah. And then I found it, when I got to the 38 degree mark, I felt like I got the hit, so to speak, in like one to three minutes. Yeah. And the need to stay in it for six kind of felt silly. It was like, I'm just going to be colder. But I got it. I got the bump, so to speak, you know, and so and then I've just went to play with this. And I, then I went 50 degree water that wasn't moving at all. And I felt like that was a hot tub. I was like, this is doing nothing for me. So I was like, that's interesting. And then I went back to 44 degrees and I was like, okay. So I've gotten kind of used to this point. The good news is I don't feel like I have to go colder. So that feels good. Where I'm not like, I'm not chasing 33 degrees for like 30 seconds. I feel like 38 is a sweet spot. Is it that personal? Like when you do it, is it, is it a minute? Is it three minutes? I know the science will say do 11 minutes during the week, but that doesn't, that doesn't really compute to me personally. So I don't, I don't know, but how do, what is your? Yeah. It's, it's such an interesting conversation. And I love one of the things that you said that I just want to highlight is that I'm playing with it. And I think that's the key, truly, because it is, it is different. And it's different every day, depending on who you are and what you need. One of the, one of the phrases that we use a lot is a goal oriented approach to cold water immersion. Because the truth is it depends. What are you looking for? Yeah. Are you looking to recover from a long run you just did? Are you looking for a quick pick me up? Are you looking for a wake cycle to get your body activated? Are you looking for a sleep cycle before you go down and come down before bed? So what is, what is the goal that you're looking for? Because that will determine our dosage. That will determine the time and temperature that we want to partake in. So we want to look at it a little bit more flexibly. So it's like a matrix in that way. Yeah, exactly. Totally. So that makes a lot of sense actually. And one of the things that I always tell people as well is starting, and it's funny because, you know, you adapt and you're someone that's very cold adapted. And if you get a 50 and it feels like a hot tub now, it's amazing. And that's really cold adapted. It's wild. It's wild. But it's totally wild. It's totally wild. Yeah. It blew me away by the way. I'm like, this is not good, right? This is not normal. It's fantastic though. It's cool. You've got great stores of your brown fat, that brown adipose tissue. You've got a nice high concentration of that which is helping you from a thermogenesis creating heat standpoint, which is great. Thank you. And there's a lot. Yeah, exactly. So you got some good brown fat. That's going to be the new compliment. The big thing that I always explain to beginners as well is that let's look at the research that we have out there and one of the papers that you referenced, which is looking at seeing the benefit of cold water immersion as it's relating to the boost in the norepinephrine and that adrenaline and the dopamine, which are some of the most common cited benefits, especially today, that wasn't done at 38 degrees or 33 degrees or even 45 degrees. That's right. It was not at 57 degrees, 14 Celsius. Cold shower, basically. Exactly. And like you said, 11, 12 minutes per week in totality. So I always like to start with beginners is 55 degrees, two minutes is like a really nice beginner dose. It's for someone that's a beginner, especially if they're a little bit apprehensive, they're going to get plenty of cold chalk from that and it's going to be intense. And my preference is that someone has a good first experience. And they're like, okay, that was intense, but I did it and like now I want to see what's more. And I think that that's something that a lot of people do get wrong in the space right now, because it's the hot, sexy, trendy thing to do is like get in, you want to see the ice. You want to, you know, you got to be in there for 10 minutes, like join the 10 minute club and be in the ice for 10 minutes. It's like, no, I worry about that for a lot of different reasons, especially because you only got one chance to have someone, everybody only has one chance to have their first ice bath experience. And I, my preference is that that becomes a really inspiring and empowering experience. And we know why we're doing it, not just like, get in and suffer and we're going to take a cool picture and it's going to be great. It's like, no, what is, can this actually do for you? What are you getting in? So it's a spectrum. It's, it's looking at it more with these more different variables. Like for me, the temperature that I'm loving right now is 47 degrees, like that 47 to 50 window feels great for me right now. And I'll be in there for two to three minutes and like that feels good. And then sometimes I feel inspired to, to get into the tub a little bit colder or stay for a little bit longer. Like this morning I went for a long run. So I was in for more like five to six minutes. I tend to not time myself anymore. I, I like to really go for timelessness. I do, I do the same thing. You do the same now. Yeah. I'm just kind of like, oh, I feel it. Exactly. You feel it. And that, and that in my opinion, that's the opportunity here. And that's what I really seek to empowering people with is that like you're your best coach. You're your best healer. You're your best teacher. You know, you're your best doctor. And you have within you those answers. And so when you're in there and you're in a really in tune place, your mind is quiet because it has to be. You're in your breath. You're in your zone. You know, you, you get that feeling. You know when it's time. You're like, okay, cool. I feel like this is complete. And you can play with like, as Andrew Humerman says, those walls, right? That wall of resistance. It's like, cool. Let me breathe through this a little bit more. Okay, cool. I'm over that. That feels good. Or no, you know what? I respect this wall and it's time for me to get out and building that sovereignty, that independence and that, that communication with that inner voice is something that is, I think the big opportunity here. So as you were saying this, I realized for me, the reason I do it more often than not, I play a lot of tennis. I play like maybe two hours of tennis a day. And so there's for sure benefits for me going in anything cold. Totally. Just to sort of reduce the inflammation. I've noticed I can play more tennis because of it. So that's like, check that box. Cool. But I realized, I realized I do it more for mental. Like I think as, and you know this as an entrepreneur starting a business, not every day is glamorous. And so naturally, for some reason, for me doing the cold plunge every day is like, this is the hardest thing I have to do. I'm choosing torture in some way. And everything else is going to be pretty straightforward. And that just jives. But to go back to the science of it, I would love if someone published a paper being like, this is, this is, it's rewiring mental circuits. It's making people think differently. There's something to be said about sort of hitting those walls. But what is that literally doing? Right. In the brain. Right. Long term, not just, you know, and that's the thing that I, you know, hopefully that's the science I want to see. Yeah, agree. Both that from a qualitative standpoint, but from a quantitative standpoint as well, what are some of these biometrics we can measure that can show the effect of that? So, so I'm totally on the same page with you with that. And that's some of the stuff that I'm most excited about when it comes towards furthering the space and the education and the research of how this can be approachable. And just to, to riff on what you said there around as an entrepreneur going in and doing that hard thing, right? Like, yeah, we know that as a, as a high performer as an entrepreneur, eating the frog, so to speak, or, or going in, that's a hormetic stress. It's a hormetic stressor. It's a willful conscious dose of stress that you're putting on your body. And there's great benefit. Like, we know the science behind that, the hormesis and hormetic stress and what that can do for our body. It's fantastic. And it's such an important part of my daily habit and routine and knowing that's a tool, like you said, of being able to be like, I'm going to go do a thing that sucks right now that I don't want to do. But how can we take, because then that becomes in a practice arena. And the question I often pose is, how can we take the practice out of the ice bath? Where are those everyday ice bath moments? You know, just this morning I had one when I got a, when I got a call from, from someone that we're doing a partnership with who was a little flustered about certain things and it was just like, Oh, that hurts. It's a little uncomfortable. Okay. Let me breathe. This is an ice bath moment. Like, how am I going to lean in? Okay. Let me just get on the phone and call him. It's like, let me lean into that, like right where I feel like I'm throttling back. What if we just took that one step, that one step further right when we're like kind of throttling back because that's, that's the edge zone as we call it. Like that's the zone. And you take that step and that's where the growth happens and that's where things become easier as well. So it's like, we're always right kind of pushing up against it. I think most people learn this when they have children, is my guess. Do you have children? No. But it's like, I've seen enough people become like morphing to somebody else after children because so much is out of their control. But it's constant, especially when the kids are like very little, it's constant. You're just problem solving. Why are you crying? I don't know. What do I do? How do I fix it? I'm not sure. I'm going to the doctor 14 times a day. You're just like, there's a mess. You got to watch your child get a vaccine. Totally. You know, you got to feel that pain but it's not your pain. How do I, you know what I mean? And so it's like this constant game of, oh my God, whack-a-mole. It's a good point. And so I think that's when people experience it. And so, yeah, I love it. Well, listen, where can people help? Where can people buy? Yeah. Or can they join the legends club? Yeah, exactly. I mean, our Instagram is kind of our go-to social media place. It's our community hub right now. So find us on Instagram at edge3labs, personally, at Joshua Dean Church, and our website, edge3labs.com. We have a great science page on our website and we're constantly adding to it. So that's something very cool to check out. If you want to go learn a little bit more about use case and benefits and all the way down to the actual studies that we reference, we spent a lot of time on building that page to bring something together that felt like this feels like a really great standalone resource for whoever. So I encourage you to go check that out. We also have a free Cold Water Immersion 101 mini course where you can understand a little bit about the benefits. There's a guided breath work session in there. There's a guided audio immersion to do your first one, whether it's a cold shower or a cold immersion. If you're a beginner like that, I'd recommend checking that out. You can find that on our website or on our Instagram. Yeah, otherwise, just what people can do to support is to take control, take control of their lives, take control of their breath, understand that they've got this body that's working for them and that's whispering wisdom to them and they have the ability to tap into that and if they lead from that place, leading from that place of intuition, then that's what they can do to support. Joshua, a legend. Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much for the support and making it to the end of the episode. If you haven't already, please leave a review and share the episode with your friends. 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