 You can watch other business owners and entrepreneurs speak about business and it can make you feel like a failure pretty quickly. And in an industry where I'm constantly like speaking to people, surrounded by people, going to busy events, funnily enough, it can still feel like a bit of a lonely place. And I think that maybe is just with any, any kind of like business owner slash leader. There is a certain feeling that if you're not, if you're not born and bred in London, like it's really hard to kind of break through that barrier Where do you go when you want to learn to become a better leader? That's a good question. In my 15 years of being a founder, I've had some ups, but I've also had some serious downs. Sometimes I've struggled with leadership, I've struggled with making the right decision, I've struggled with imposter syndrome or even celebrating my wins. But today I want to introduce you to one of the most humble founders I know, he's been able to thrive through all of those things, Jessica Joseph. She is the founder of Season 25, which is an influencer agency, which was created around three years ago, but has been able to get to a revenue of two million and growing. She represents a talent such as Madden Joyce, the Cubs family and Simply Shio. Throughout this interview, you will find out exactly why I call her one of the most humble founders I know. Please enjoy. Hey, Jessica. Hey, how are you? I'm doing well, thank you yourself. Good, yeah, I'm good. Busy week, but a good week. It's good to be here. I guess you will know, obviously, we've had a few conversations previously that when you're running a business, it's really hard to give all parts of yourself equally. And sometimes the self promotion or storytelling part of behind the business is the bit that kind of comes last. So when you reached out and said, like, you know, want to hear more about the story and let's come and chat, I was keen to do so. From like two business owners, it was really interesting, because we're at different parts of our journey, but there were so many things that we spoke about that were like similar experiences. Yeah. For me, to give a bit of context around the business itself, because we work in a service. So we have clients and they all have very different needs. Yeah. So if you think about managing creators who are summer 23, summer 44, some have families, there are so many things as humans that we're experiencing all the time that we've got to be so in tune with. And I think that for me, it's sometimes hard to find the balance between giving all of yourself in that position and also internally building the team and giving all of yourself to the team as well. One of the key themes that I did want to talk to you about is the idea of you building the team and what the experience has been like for you as well. I'd be lying if I said it hasn't been challenging. I think the hiring process has been one of the most challenging experiences of growing a business. And also, it's not even just the hiring, it's making the decision to start hiring. So when is a good time and why? And also, we've already touched on this, but the fact that I'm starting the business in a kitchen in my parents' house versus having loads of pre-business experience and working for, I guess I worked for startups in a way, but because I was a junior, I wasn't in those meetings about business and how you run a business and how to do financial overviews and how to write a business plan. So actually throwing yourself into it is great, but then when you look at all the building blocks that you need to take to run a business, you can kind of understand that there are obviously some bits you're gonna be good at and some bits that you're not gonna be good at. And I think a lot of conversations around business, there are some, not dishonesties, but you can watch the business owners and entrepreneurs speak about business and it can make you feel like a failure pretty quickly because nobody really discusses the genuinely hard parts about running a business. And although some people find it easier than others to do, I'm sure, I think by glossing over it and making it seem fully glamorous that it probably puts a lot of people off running a business. And actually those challenges and the failures you make and the bits that you do find really hard are the parts that make you, well firstly they build you as a person, but we're all learning at the same time and it makes us all quite similar. I think lots of people don't realise that. 100%. Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know that on November the 24th, 2023, we will be hosting our first workshop of the year. It's gonna be focused on helping you to become a board member. For more information, visit the Dream Nation website at dreamnation.co, that's dreamnation.co. We've got four full members of staff, which is exciting. Sometimes daunting, you look around, you're like, oh God, wow, here we all are at this small, I guess, early point in the business. And now we're hiring for two more positions. So going through the interview process has been quite eye-opening. We had about 700 applicants with us, two jobs. So did you go through 700 cover letters realistically? Or did you have to? Some of the cover letters are so easy. You know, file away. But that was the most important part, is seeing that somebody has taken the time out because they want to work for the business. That genuine passion. When I've hired for Dream Nation or basically anything I've done, I've always been really keen to not promote it to you highly. So a lot of the time, I only will talk about if we say my stories on Instagram because for someone to have got to the point where they are following me, they're licking at my stories and they're paying attention, then you get those really, I guess, people who are already brought into your dream and your vision. I have made the mistake of doing the LinkedIn post with, I don't know, 10 pounds I'd spend behind it and being inundated with easy applies and... Because you were saying before, some people didn't even look at your website, right? Yeah, that was it. Recruitment obviously in business is one of the hardest things, managing people is one of the hardest things, but I think the harder part, which is probably more unique to you as a leader now, is how do you know when it's time for you to actually bring people on board? I think for us, or for myself personally, I had spent so long doing the same job that I knew we needed assistance, even just on an admin level and kind of personal assistance to what I was doing. It was a hard decision to make and it was made a little bit easier because my sister needed a part-time job, so initially she came on to help on the admin side and now two years later is still with us and has joined full-time after she finished uni. The second hire was a little bit more difficult because again, really coming out of our comfort zone, I've been working with the full talent on the roster for such a long time that it was comfortable. But to grow in business, you kind of have to grow out of that comfort. Yeah, it felt like a good time to bring someone on and at that point, I was looking for another kind of talent assistant to really grow into the role and Nick won't mind me mentioning this. Nick is our, I guess he's talent manager, but also really working with me in business development now. So he came in and had a previous role in sales and this was a completely different role for him. And we met and I was like, your experience is way too big for this role. And in a similar way to what we were saying about, how did you select that person? Nick's passion outshone everything. He was just like, look, I know it's a completely different role, but what you're doing with season 25 is something I really want to be a part of. It's exciting, it's new. I want to support black creators and creatives. I want to be part of that journey and let's try to find a way to make it work. How did that feel for you? So you had somebody now that is really experienced, completely different industry, but they're saying they want to follow you and your vision. What was that like? I think that was one of the most uncomfortable feelings was, as you said, we haven't done too much marketing. How do you know what we've been doing? And after meeting once in person, we got on like a house on fire. And from that moment, like Nick was like, look, this is the only route for me. We're gonna make it work. What you're doing is amazing. And I want to be a part of that. And I remember going home that day and being like had the biggest imposter syndrome. And it wasn't about like being on stage and talking about the business. It was that this person was so committed and excited about joining the business when there was only me and my sister part-time who he hadn't ever met yet. And yet still had that real drive and passion for joining us. Imposter syndrome is something that is ridiculously hard for us entrepreneurs to deal with. I know for me, like more times, like you've encountered in my career, I've had to kind of go through that. Like you're doing something where it's like, everyone else around you sees the potential, they see your work fate, they see everything else, and they know that you're gonna succeed, but you don't feel that for yourself. I can definitely relate to the external view versus the internal feeling. And because we live in the digital age, we're obviously expected to showcase the best bits and really, you know, just going through the journey and appreciating the different feelings that come along with that. For me, there's a specific event that we did back in 2017, actually, where I was convinced that we shouldn't do this event. It was this 2017 gala that was organized and big networking event, 400 or so people coming down for it. And I remember looking at the numbers in the bank account, looking at the way that people were, kind of the energy that was getting from the audience and turning around to the other people in the leadership team and saying, we should not do this event. I just had no, personally, I had no confidence in being able to pull it off. Or even if we could, I was scared that the money still wasn't gonna add up in terms of like, yes, if we sold our tickets, great. But then we started to kill sponsors, get a headline to be, or a headline performer, all of that sort of thing. And I remember being honestly terrified with that. And it took both of those leaders to kind of sit me down and say, you know what, Claude, we got this. And it was tough. We did the event in the end. Apart, yeah, it was honestly one of the hardest things because you just don't know whether you should be exactly like, whether you're trying to be, because at the end of the day, it's your job to make sure there's money in the bank to make sure everyone gets paid on your team. And as much as they wanna take risks and do all these amazing things, it's not them that has to deal with it when there's nothing there. Yeah. So like. The fallout or the potential fallout because you never know. Yeah. And I think that's, it's one of the most exciting things about running a business is, you don't know what's coming next. And I think that's what keeps it exciting. And that's what powers you. That's what drives you to do well is that this could all change very quickly. And so you have to just take your gut instinct sometimes and you have to be confident in your decisions, even if, you know, 100% of you is not saying it's the right decision. Yeah. And I find, I'm finding that with kind of time and experience, those decisions are becoming a little bit easier and feeling more comfortable. Thank you for listening to today's episode. If you haven't already, make sure you sign up to our mailing list at dreamnation.co forward slash mailing list. And from there, you'll be able to find out about all the things that we have coming for you. Do you feel like imposter syndrome has led to you making a mistake when it comes to decisions in your company? Yes. Yeah. Can you talk about it? Yeah. I'm going to give, I'm going to give an example. And obviously, you know, we're still a small business now and we're still a small like roster of clients, a small team. It would be, I mean, it would be lucky to get to three years without making any mistakes. Yeah. And you can really beat yourself up about them or you can take them as a learning and use it as a kind of playbook as to how not to handle those situations the next time. I think definitely in the beginning, when we were onboarding new clients and we've had, we've had a handful that went, you know, the relationship hasn't worked out and it's been really amicable and we've just decided we're not quite right match for each other. I think there were, there was one or two kind of clients that we've worked with where I let my boundaries really slip. And when you're, as I said, in an active like service job and you've got a team that relies on you and those boundaries are slipping and you're giving kind of too much of yourself, there has been a couple of like toxic type relationships that I've always knew when I was making those decisions and answering those calls and making myself way too available and potentially over promising or, you know, not setting the right expectations that in that moment maybe wasn't making the right decision for the business. I personally felt like, oh, I can take that extra bit of work on and I'm sure it'll be fine and I'll just answer this quick call and that has an effect on your personal relationships. It has effect on the other clients that you have. Yeah, I think there's definitely some learners to be taken from setting healthier boundaries and understanding like what's good for yourself as well as the business. Yeah, without boundaries when it comes to clients is massive. So before I started Dream Nation, I used to run an agency as well in the media space and yeah, like some clients will, they will email you at 11 o'clock at night and expect a response or they'll send you WhatsApp messages or calls, et cetera. There's a lot. If you don't put that in place from pre-master get go, then they'll take the mic. Yeah, exactly. We, I guess in the projects that we work on, they're sometimes they're urgent and I get that there's lots to be done in a short amount of time and it's a really fast paced industry. So, and when you've got so many clients and they're all doing great things all at the same time, it is constant, you know, my brain is constantly worrying and there's a thousand emails and there are phone calls and there's a lot to fit in. But if you spread yourself too thinly and in the end it all is too much, you know, your experience in burnout and you just have to kind of stop, that's gonna be way worse for everyone. So I think learning that fairly early on in the business and making sure that we have healthy relationships of all our clients, like really open levels of communication and ways of working that don't mean that we're 24 seven on 24 seven call has been a really good decision. One lesson that I've learned when it comes to leadership and entrepreneurship is it's so easy for you to, I guess, set the pace of how your team follow. In your case, like, have you seen your team, like have anything to our boundaries of the clients that they're serving? I think one of the hardest things as a leader is when you're asking for honest feedback being really open to what your team is coming back to you and saying even if it's like a little bit hurtful and, you know, we're all human, even if it is something that they feel needs to be worked on, improved, changed, like being really open to that feedback. So yeah, I would say that right now we're in a great position where the team have got a great balance with the clients that we work with and at a point where there was less of us for sure, I think that maybe there were long hours, phone calls outside of working hours and it sometimes is inevitable but we've stripped back to a place that feels good for everyone now and I think that actually, because I'm using the example here of one of our newer clients who when they joined the roster asked me, by the way, like, do we work weekends? Just never had, this has always been their, you know, full-time career and that's your baby. So, you know, things they do in content, these creating, you're at a shoot, you're at an event, you're at a premiere, they just are used to working seven days a week. So that was an option for me to say, oh yeah, you can message anytime and we'll be around or for me to say, no, actually we don't work weekends unless extenuating circumstances, we've got a shoot to attend or whatever that is. And in this 24-7 hustle culture that we're really exposed to online and where you see other business owners and of course I'm always thinking about work, like it doesn't switch off and yeah, maybe I'm doing work behind the scenes but to say we are not available on the weekends and set that standard I think is really important and we shouldn't be, I guess, glamorising this, like being completely accessible and open to work seven days a week, 24 hours of the day. I do some coaching, I don't know if you know that, but we have really clear time to when the coaches are meant to start and when it's meant to finish. But with some of my clients, I'm realising that I'm really bad at stopping the session where it's supposed to stop because you just want to give them that little bit of extra help. And that's it and I think that you go into a certain vocation because it feels natural to you and you love doing it and I genuinely love my job, I love managing talent, I love being part of the journey, love building careers with them and being there in the long term and having that really successful relationship and it doesn't feel always natural to just switch off at the weekend but we all have factors of life that need to flourish as well, like hobbies and exercise and family and going on holiday and that kind of thing. And the thing I love about your approach to boundaries and how you set up your clients is definitely it stops stuff like burnout and that is a huge issue that I've had to deal with from the past. Kind of going back to that 2017 story I was telling about the gala, part of the reason why in hindsight I realised I was less willing to take that risk and put it into the companies because I was really burning out. I don't quite realise it but I wasn't sleeping enough, I wasn't like I was working till, I think it was like 11 p.m. every night, et cetera and it did have a huge impact on my physical and mental health over time. Massively. I actually think that the confidence in speaking about boundaries only comes from being so close to the edge of what you've just kind of explained. Being really close to a point where I physically couldn't work anymore and I think the nervousness around feeling like you're taking time off when realistically it's just the evening. It's just nighttime, you're not taking time off, you're going to sleep. And yeah, so it came from being in a position where six o'clock in the morning I'm up on emails, I'm missing the gym, I used to love running, I stopped running completely when I started working for myself because I didn't take half an hour to go for a run and when you start to weigh up the effects on your physical, mental health and relationships in general because actually continuing to live that way has a negative effect on the working relationships that you've worked really hard to build. You're not the best version of yourself. Everyone in your life is going to benefit from you being able to sleep well, eat well, exercise and actually you're going to be able to put more of yourself into all the tasks that you need to complete at work if you're feeling good. At the end of the day, we all want to live a happy life so I think that being a business earner is all about thinking about the benefits of, like, sorry, the success of the business but it's also thinking about actually what is a successful team as well and they have to be fulfilled and happy and healthy in order to feed back into the business. Where do you go when you want to learn to become a better leader? That's a good question. I would say my instinctively, there are three to four people who I know that I can lean on for advice that I can take inspiration from and who I really value the opinion of. One would be a friend that I met actually at Gleam who has gone on to build her own business and we kind of grown alongside each other. She has managed to build an amazing business and it's always great to see another woman in a similar industry achieving fabulous things. She's also really level-headed so it calms down. There's sometimes more kind of, like, off-the-handle reactions that I might have. I would then also look to the people that I find inspiring in the business world. Given a shout-out, I love Charmedine Reed who is the founder of the Stack World and part of the Stack World. So I joined that women's network because it was basically built around becoming a great woman and leader. So leaning on people from groups like that that I've met through, that will be going through the same challenges. And then lastly, I would say my dad, who is a business owner of a small business but also just has some, a wealth of experience and has gone through periods of setting up a business with someone else and that not being quite right, hiring somebody and that not being quite right. So I lean on him for his advice because I value his opinion. That's really insightful and I think it's really key for us to set up those support networks around us and have that so that we can, if you have somewhere to lean on because being a leader can be so lonely. It can, yeah, especially in an industry where I'm constantly speaking to people, surrounded by people, going to busy events. Funnily enough, it can still feel like a bit of a lonely place. And I think that maybe is just with any kind of like business owner slash leader. And I think that's why probably setting up a business with someone who you really know and trust is probably quite an attractive thought to people because you've always got that person to lean on. And I do feel really lucky to be in a position now where I can properly lean on the team and I value our team so much. And actually it's much nicer working with them and going through the ups and downs of like running a business and making wrong decisions than it is alone. I hope you're enjoying today's episode. If you are, please make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube or wherever platform you're listening to this podcast on. Don't forget to like this video as well. If you had the opportunity to go back and do things a little bit differently, would you consider having a co-founder or would there be any other changes you're making your business or journey so far? I would say, I would consider having a co-founder. Yeah, for sure. It's not something that I would rule out. If I was making the decision again exactly where I was at that point, I think I would do the same thing. I felt really driven in that moment and it wasn't a moment, it was obviously like weeks of thinking and brainstorming and pros and cons and whatnot. The one thing that I might change, I think that I would change would be thinking a little bit less about the hiring process and actually just letting people come in and really try, either prove themselves and it might work out, it might not work out. I think I've spent a lot of time just dithering, like, does it feel right, do I get, and instinct speaks for a lot, but I think I've spent a little bit too much time maybe worrying about those things and it would be better to have someone come in and be wonderful and get that process done a lot quicker. One of the things that I guess really has made you stand out to a lot of other founders I know, especially founders of your level of success is that humility and willingness to learn where do you say that comes from? I've mentioned my dad briefly in kind of being a business owner, but I saw him every day, you know, putting in the hours and working so hard to get to where he is now and, you know, in my head, he should be this owner of huge business and he's still working as hard as he was at 10 years ago and now he's near into 60. And also, if you're looking at the background that he had and, you know, my mum as well, she's from Bradford, born and bred in Bradford and it's a working class city. I do feel that you have to work a little bit harder to get to where you wanna go when you're living in a city that maybe doesn't have the same access to opportunity and my nan came over from the Caribbean just after not Windrush generation, but after that, obviously, with the promise of this great life and moved to a council estate in Bradford, had her children and I just see my family work really, really hard to get to where they are now and I think that really, it builds the drive in you. I've always kind of wanted to do well and continue that and make my family proud and to build opportunities for my family in the future. So I think it comes from that personal background. As you're speaking, you just made me realize I can't think about myself and probably a lot of other people from London, which is, we are so London centric. Yeah. I guess, I don't even guess like the vast majority of people in this country don't live in the city. And with that said, there's a whole another story about what you've experienced where you moved from your city, you came to London to establish yourself. Would you have any advice for somebody who's up north or the Midlands or anything like that that is looking at starting a business or developing their career? Like, is moving to London the end all in be all or? Oh, I'm on the fence about that one because it depends, again, it's about the industry you want to work in but for me, most industries now have their kind of headquarters in London. So you want to work in finance, you want to work as a banker, you want to work in media. Generally speaking, you instinctively think that moving to London is going to be the best option but it's really difficult. If I'm thinking about house prices and rent and affordability, it's not realistic to think that most people from Bradford where they average house prices, you know, somewhere between 125 and 150, to come to London and ever be able to live the life of a Londoner, I found it really difficult. I had, you know, something we haven't even touched on, like massive financial struggles when I moved here because firstly, you don't have that network of people. There's no one I could surface with. I didn't actually know anyone who lived here. So you've got the financial part of it to think about. You're building a whole new friendship group. You're coming to a job where you don't know anybody yet and it really does throw you out of your comfort zone and I think you've got to be really strong-willed and know what your end goal is to deal with those kind of emotions because sometimes it can feel really lonely. So I would say, I think really hard about whether it is that you need to be in London specifically to succeed wearing, again, the work from home age because of COVID and places like Manchester and Leeds, are really building their kind of media arms. And I think gaining experience there before knowing, cool, this is really the industry that I want to work in before you make that big leap wouldn't be a bad thing. I love London. I'm not trying to bad my life. I love being here. I would say that from where I'm kind of sitting and looking at the people in my circles, I do feel a disadvantage because I wasn't born here. I didn't go to school with anyone. I'm like new on the scene. Although I feel like I know the industry inside and out and I know how to do my job well. There is a certain feeling that if you're not born on bread and London, like it's really hard to kind of break through that barrier with your peers. So how do you navigate being that industry outsider? That I think is sometimes where the imposter syndrome also comes from is I don't have friends that I've grown up with to lean on round here who are, I guess, shouting my name in a room because they don't know me. So you really have to put yourself forward and sometimes build a fake confidence to just put yourself in the ring and have conversations and reach out to people. And there's so many people who have followed on Instagram for years, seen them at events and thought they're with people they know, they're with their mates and I'm not gonna go for any kind of conversation. And you really have to just push yourself past that mental blocker and say, nah, I actually deserve to be in the room as much as anyone else. And I'm confident. I know that I'm like good at my job and I'm happy enough to say hello. And if it's, you know, if it leads to nothing and they say hi and they're not interested in chatting, cool, I'll move on to the next person. But yeah, there is a mental barrier that you have to break down in order to just put yourself in that situation. What's a big win? I've got a few big wins I would say. Actually better than a big win because yeah, like your business is gonna have lots of those. What are you miss proud of? Like what's made you excited or making you smile? I'm proud of a lot of things. I am proud of the fact that one year in business is meant to be the hardest year. That first year I loved every second and not many people can say that. And I'm really proud of the fact that we've built such long standing and enjoyable relationships with the clients that we work with. The longest relationships I've got with some of our kind of OG clients and they're in five years now and still feel exciting every day. And we're still having some really big wins as a teenager growing up and wanting to work in like journalism or marketing to be able to say that we've worked on like a global Nike campaign with an amazing young footballer. Or we've worked on a huge Disney campaign with a family who never thought they would be going to Disneyland. That's actually something to be really proud of. Yeah. And when this is all said and done, what do you want to be known for? I don't know how I think about that beforehand. I think I would like to be known as somebody who has had a positive influence in this specific industry. I'd like to be known as a business that has just a real strong mission, vision and value that we've always stuck to. Even if we grow to 10 times the size now, I want it to feel that like the culture of the business is something that has always been true to who we are based on our own values. And that is that we are passionate. We are collaborative. And yeah, I just want it to feel that I've had a positive influence within this industry. That's really powerful. The last question I'll ask all my guests is, who do you think would be a great person for us to have on this podcast in the future? I am going to suggest a very good friend of mine, Brona Monahan. She is a business owner, co-founder with another unbelievable like powerhouse, Elspeth Ray. They have a management company called Mon Ray and they have built some outstanding careers for gaming talent. She has, I think she's on to kind of running her second business now. And as I said, is super knowledgeable, is the person that I lean on as a fellow business owner and friend and has a lot of different kind of skills to me. She is a really inspirational lady and I'm sure you'd enjoy speaking to her. Amazing, we'll definitely reach out to her. Yeah, please do. So, I'm going to say thank you so much for being on our show today. You've been so insightful, so honest, so transparent and that authenticity I think is really going to show through and actually really have a meaningful impact on our audience, so thank you for your time today and looking forward to see you continue to win. Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. We release a new episode every Sunday, so make sure that you subscribe and follow us so that you never miss out. If you'd like some more inspiration while you wait for the next new episode, then check out the recommendation above. Don't forget to follow us on social media and you can send us a question or a dilemma that you'd like us to answer on the podcast. This is Club Williams, you've been watching Behind the Dreams and we look forward to seeing you at the next Dream Nation event.