 The Action Aid Nigeria and other civil society organisations call for the reduction of salaries of political appointees and legislators. We discussed party primaries and internal democracy in the second segment with the new Nigeria People's Party, NNPP. Well, this is plus politics. I am Mary Anna Coughlin. The Action Aid Nigeria civil society action coalition on education for all, YAGA Africa and others have called for cuts of salaries of the federal lawmakers and political appointees to fund education. Now, Country Director Action Aid Nigeria, NLB, stated this saying that it is demoralising that the public universities that produced the present crop of leaders and manpower being currently enjoyed in the country are locked due to unresolved labour disputes between the lecturers and unions and the federal government. They also called for collective efforts to end the ongoing ASU strike in the interest of the nation's education and national development. In 2018, the senator representing Kaduna Central, Shehu Sani, revealed that he and his then colleagues received 13.5 million Naira as running cost. Well, joining us to discuss this is Deji Awobiide, and he's a legal practitioner and be able to show me who is a political analyst. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us. This is my pleasure. Great. So let's start by looking at the running cost of members of our legislature. This is not the first time this conversation has been had. Nigerians have always continuously called for a cut in the running cost of the National Assembly, the take-home pay of the National Assembly, but it's all just been talk and there's never really been action. I remember when Senator Bokala Sariqi was the Senate president, there was also a cry for the finances of the National Assembly to be made plain so that Nigerians could know how much these people were earning. But I'm going to start with you, Deji. Do you think that this is another talk or what a pawn in the back of a chicken in terms of asking for a cut in pay? Well, thank you. So firstly, you know that the revenue allocation and fiscal commission is empowered in the constitution to fix renovation for our legislators as well as other political office orders. Specifically, section 1784111 and 124, make that provision in addition to Biograff 32D of part one to the third schedule of the constitution. However, you will see that remember that had a lot of difficulty in trying to implement its constitutional mandate of fixing renovation for these political office orders and the challenge itself stems from implementation because you had two attempts at a review. The first one was in 2009, we tried to review the package of this political office orders. After the review, they submitted the report, they didn't follow up on it. In 2015, the same thing was done, they tried to review it as well. The people were supposed to actually implement these things in other words, when the RMAFAC does its own review, it submits it to the National Assembly, which is supposed to make it into an act, a law that guides it. So the extra law that we currently have is called the setting political, public and judicial office orders, salaries and allowances amendments act of 2008. Now, since then, they have been efforts to review it all to no avail because the persons who are affected by it have made themselves a stumbling block towards the actualisation of these amendments. So in other words, you have a package, if you go to the RMAFAC website, you find a package there, but that package does not reflect what they actually end. So in Trevi, you have that there for all to access, but of course there's no transparency as to how much it actually ends. And you've seen in the past few years that every National Assembly tries to entwine a negative into putting what their own budget should be into the national budget. In other words, they would not pass the budget or approve a budget unless their own needs are what they get care of. And of course, it also also emphasises that when it comes to these packages, there is no division. I mean, they are united even though they are from different tribes, different religions, different backgrounds. They are all united in ensuring that our collective, our common good is looted by them. And there seems to be no end in sight into how to resolve this problem. And that's where we are currently as a people, that we can't hold them to any accountability because they are the persons who should actually pass this law. And that will leave their packages. Mr Showmie, let's look at the core of this call. The reason why this call was made in the first instance is because they're saying there's a deadlock between university lecturers, the unions, ASU and of course the federal government. And we know that it has entered, I think this is the hundredth day since universities have been shut down and the hundredth day of that strike. And it might continue to linger if federal government and ASU do not come to some form of agreement. But let's do a quick side-by-side look at how much the university lecturers earn as opposed to what our national assembly members earn. I mean, we've seen the show Sandy saying that they earn about 13.5 million, even though there are several ridiculous allowances that we will get to later in the conversation. So looking at these guys, what they're asking for and what we have as pay for our national assembly members, will there be a justification somewhat if this call were to be pushed further? If the budgeting or the budget of the national assembly be cut into half to be able to deal with the problem of our ASU. Again, during the APC's form buying and people declaring their intentions, we also saw how much money were being doled out, whether it be by groups or associations or certain persons saying, well, we want to pick a form for you. People have also queried that, but that's a political party and that's not a government agency. It's not also an arm of the government. In asking for this, how do we go about getting not just the legislature, but also the executive to the table with ASU? Yeah, we need to go a little bit backward to understand what is actually going on and why they call for the reduction in the salaries of political office holders. When you look at in 2005 or 2006, the intention of the former president of ASU, when he declared that he was going to monetize all the facilities, housing and everything being enjoyed, mobile ex-laters, they went ahead and did that. Many of them bought the houses and bought the vehicles and all that, so they were expected to maintain those houses and vehicles. But immediately of ASU power, the next turnaround is for the same legislators to hide on their committees duties. They were not supposed to have any vehicle belonging to the National Assembly, but they hid under the work of committees and bought the vehicles and claimed that the vehicles were for committees work using the public funds against the monetization. So, basically, they took one thing with one hand and also double it with another hand, creating a very terrible situation for the open trade. Unfortunately, the federal government would not do anything about it because they expected, the legislatures are expected to pass the law, but if they fail to enact the law, then there's nothing anybody can do just like they just said. Now, when you now move a beat for that and look at the report of Oresai's report, I think it was in 2013 or 2014, when Oresai came up with the report that there are duplications of existing functions of statutory agencies. In some cases, you have multiplication of agencies. Essentially, politicians using it for job for the boys, rather than amniasing those agencies and creating one agency to deal with one particular issue, multiple agencies are created. And since then, government has failed to implement the Oresai's report simply because they need to keep these jobs in those agencies as jobs, you know, can go for the boys, rather than looking at the national, the imperative of national spending court, you know that to fund the priorities like education. So, we've been in this lot job right from immediately after our bus was just letting tail now. And now we found ourselves in the situation where we are unable to fund education, we are unable to fund the health sector. So, we'll be having rampant, you know, strike actions both in the health and the education sector. Specifically on the education sector, since 2009, the federal government reached an agreement, no with us, and that agreement was negotiated in 2018, again by this very particular Oresai's government. When it comes to implementation, the federal government is short on that. We've seen the federal government refusing to implement agreements that would improve education, save the country a lot of funds on foreign exchange. And the only way you can understand the savings on foreign exchange, if we invest in educational model, is just to consider in 2018, 77,000 Nigerian students went together to study in five universities in Ghana. And the total amount of money paid to five universities in Ghana was more than the total budget for all Nigerian universities, federal, state and whatever. So, it makes me ask the question. I'm so sorry to talk over you, Mr Showmie. It makes me ask the question, because sometimes there's that argument that Nigerians don't want to pay for good education. But then we see Nigerians working very hard to pay these school fees abroad. I mean, I've even heard somebody say she's going to school in Benet Republic, you know. It goes to show how bad the situation is here for us to send our children to next door, the next door country. So is it really about us not being willing to pay for good education or it's just that the environment is not conducive enough for good education and learning to happen? Yes. What Nigerians don't want to do is to pay for bad education. They are happy to pay for education. Otherwise the private universities in Nigeria will not be surviving by now. What nobody wants to do is to, to to to to to solvent inefficiencies to solvent poor education. And what government needs to do is to invest in it. The only way you can gauge government performance on education is to consider UNESCO recommendation. Okay. o fod yn fwy ddweud. Felly, haethwn i chi'n dweud o ddweud o ddweud o yvectraf? Dw i'n dweud o'r bofyrdd, dyfodd yn ddweud, dda chi'n parwch ar y cosedd Gall Milgoon, neu wedi ddweud o fod ar unhau 7-8%. Felly, felly, ito'n gyfer gyfledd o driver i ddweud o ddweud, dwi'n ddweud o ddweud o ystyried�b gyda ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud. Fi't ddweudio ddweud o ddweud, hwnnw'n gwybod i'r ddweudio. Mae Gwbeth yn ystod ar fy llynigadau'r llefydd, rydym gynnwys y plan ar gyfer y dyfodol, gyda'r Ynysgwr Dynion Nigriol, yn yddy'r unig er mwyn i'r Ynysgwr Dynion Nigriol yn y ddweud i'r Ynysgwr Dynion Nigriol, gan ddweud i'r Ynysgwr Dynion Nigriol. Yna'r ffordd yna yn ynnu'r Afri ac mae'r gweithio'r ddechrau. Gweithio'r ddweudio'r eu ddweudio'r Ynysgwr Dynion Nigriol i gyfnodd o'r Dariusala yn syniad ar gyfer gyd yn ysgrifennu i gyfnodd i gynnwysgwyl. Rwy'n ddim yn ysgrifennu i gyd yma, yn ymwysgwyl yr extra-resources, yn ysgrifennu i gyd yn ysgrifennu o'r economi. Felly, ysgrifennu'r problem wedi'i gyd yn fwy o'r aswyl. Ysgrifennu i gyfnodd i'r aswyl i gyd yn eu cyfnodd i gyd yn gweithio'r gyda unifesrwythau i'r ffrifennu o'r Ffymiau, unedlaig, UNN Unsocia, y Fifeldio Fifadol, bydd ymgyrch gyda'r byd, yma ymgyrch gweithio'r bydd yma'r bydd yma. Bydd yma'r byd yn ysgrifennu bach ar gyfer. Mae'n ymddangos ar y bydd i'r ymgyrch gyda'r ffordd. Mae'n hynny i ddim yn yr ysgrifennu ffordd o'r byd. Mae'n ymgyrch gyda'r byd fel ymgyrch gyda'r byd a'r byd ei wneud i'r ffordd. Both applies, or when they get into the economy, the productivity – The contribution of the economy, so in those interest – do we serve when we refuse to poor education properly? Let me throw it back to D spaghetti. Unfortunately we're having some connection issues to show me We will come back to you Newspaper. There are, too, who also say that this might be deliberate on the part of our leaders being that there are several ways to go about dealing with the Kassu situation. And just like Mrs Holy herbs. He said, we've been graduating half baked in his words, I chose his words. Half baked graduates from our different universities in every era were chunning them out. But could this be a deliberate move from politic ishy pen c παدwx honcess and also as he mentioned, a you mentioned are the SDGs on education we have barely scratched the surface. When you look at Raphael bollid, year in year out, the budget do not hardly reflect anything on education, it's a mega, mega sum that is, you know, allotted to education. Why do you think that we are paying this least attention to education which should be the most important, I mean after health care? Thank you very much, Mi Mi. Well, I think that the greatest challenge that we face as a people is the leadership challenge, because if you look at the education budgets and health budgets side-by-side with how much the National Assembly is allocated in the budget, you would see that there's a very huge disparity. For instance, I didn't get one budget for 65 people in the National Assembly and more than the combined allocation for the health and education sector. I mean, that tells you that the deliberate, the systemic attempt to ensure that our educational sector and our health sector are in the comatose, because if you see what's going on with an agreement between the federal government and us, an agreement voluntarily entered into by the government. Both parties sat down and agreed. Now, you have a case where a professor in the major university is earning about 500,000 era. That's the highest level of the Professor of Canada, 500,000 era. Meanwhile, that amount is not even enough as running allowance or running costs as a red member. So it means that our priorities are misplaced. If you allocate that much money for politicians, while you leave those in the academia, those who produce the graduates, who supply you with the human resources that the country needs to develop with peanuts, then I mean, there's a need for an overall of the entire system. So advocated that we should return to part-time legislators, people who are gatefully employed, who will come and legislate maybe in the evenings or part-time businesses, but not full-time legislators, lawmakers who sit down in Abuja, sometimes on TV, you see that they are sleeping, either sleeping or absent. You see important motions are being moved by their serious colleagues, and you find a very scanty number of people in the house or in the Senate chamber. So that tells you that there's a disconnect between what these people are going there to do, and what they're actually doing. Because you're supposed there by the constitution, you're required to go and make laws for the betterment of the people. The people including the students who are at home, the students who are not able to go to school for the past 100 days. So that's why in final year, some are going to go to law school, some are supposed to go and start their housemanship. All of them are just there at home doing nothing, all because of these politicians. There's an agreement that is in place, as suspected for this welfare. Now, every now and then you see that the government establishes universities, whether university here and there, to satisfy their political clonies. So who is fooling who? You have universities that are not properly funded, the libraries are obsolete in terms of stock of books, the libraries are not properly equipped. You have medical students who cannot have facilities that have sit on the house. So you see that the challenge that is there for all to see, but the government is disinterested. The politicians are also disinterested in what's going on. I told you when I began, I said when it comes to sharing money, there is no tribalism involved, there is no religion involved. They are united in sharing money, but when it comes to things that will move the country forward, you will not find them adversely people's course. They are all about themselves. Just ask me your question, it is deliberate, it is systemic. And if you find out what's going on here, most Nigerians, even in the middle class, don't send their children to further universities anymore. They send them to the private universities. So what does that tell you? You will see that if you observe, that's what they did to the public primary schools. They did the same thing to the public secondary schools. They did the same thing to the public universities. They are gradually eroding public confidence in them and systemically ensuring that people are not going there anymore. Because before you would send your child to school now, they are having two strikes in about three years. I mean, a combined period of about seven months now, if we tell you it's up, seven months. Some schools are still running the session of 2019 before COVID. They are supposed to start a new session now and there's another strike on going. So students cannot graduate, those who are doing their PhDs cannot graduate, masters cannot graduate, Bachelors cannot graduate. So what are we talking about? So it is systemic and it's deliberate and it's really good. On the part of the government, it's very wicked because if you enter into an agreement, it is par casun savanda. You enter into an agreement with the person, you must honor the agreement. You cannot come back and say that it was entered into erroneously. That's how much I deal with this. Let me ask a discussion. I mean, I see that we're saying that government, and I'm not in any way trying to absolve government of the blame that they ought to carry on this particular matter. But in terms of us always finding other options when our leaders do not leave up to the leadership that we have handed to them. For example, like you said, the middle class person is sending their children to private universities and some even sending them abroad, scraping the bottom of their piggy banks to send these children abroad. But what are we supposed to do to make sure that these people who we call leaders, who are supposedly to serve us and do whatever it is they're doing in our best interest? What are we supposed to do to them to get them to do their jobs? Because it's not enough for us to be crying foul and saying, well, the government is not doing its job. Who's going to make them do that? Is that not supposed to be our job to keep them accountable and responsible? Correct. Absolutely correct. We should not forget one thing that one of the drivers for corruption in Nigeria is the desire to fund education of wards outside Nigeria. And you see parents holding public offices, you know, looking for other ways of means to accumulate capital, even primitively to the extent of being able to fund those luxurious education for their children. So therefore, if we fail to build our own institutions here, which the same people are the ones responsible for, then we'll continue to have corruption try being in our country. So one of the ways in which we can do this is first, somebody came up with a suggestion in the gas of reps, I think, and his colleagues rejected it. There's a new opportunity for Nigerians. Nigerians should ask anybody seeking for their goals. What is their view on education on sending their children abroad to school? Anybody can tell us what we want to hear. It's very easy. A desperate person who wants to get our votes can tell us what we want to hear. How about we begin to make demands instead of asking questions and getting very nice answers as opposed to what will happen in reality? Absolutely. It's one of the ways in which to sensitize political office seekers about the priorities of the rank and file Nigerians who they need their votes. Even though they will tell you, yes, when they get there they will do something else, but at the end of the day, they will be more sensitive to the fact that there's the likelihood that a movement, excuse me, will build along this line to what's forcing them or comparing them to do the right thing. We were very close to it with answers, safe for the agenda. The youth fields to include education as part of the agenda. I would not be surprised if, in the nearest future, we would see either the National Association of Nigerians, or some other civil society groups, governising public opinion and also mobilizing people to work, compelling the federal government to listen and not possess the federal government, the National Assembly to do the bidding of people, but applying the children of political office holders from studying abroad. The moment they know that their children will be affected, believe me, they will pay more attention, they will vote more money to the educational sector in Nigeria. I said we do that, I cannot see the ruling class yielding easily. Don't forget they have a very rapacious test for public wealth. Daisy, I want you to chime in on this. I can imagine you nodding in your head. Before you answer, I had a member of the House of Representatives here on the show last night. He was talking about sudden ills in the National Assembly, including himself, and talking about the fact that legislators are only passing bills and making laws that only are in their interest. I asked the question, if I'm benefiting from these legislations and it's helping me and I've been there for 30 to 35 years, why would I want to change it? So, yes, he's saying that we should make them do those things, but really, is that it? Can we really do that? Will it ever happen if we, the people, don't do something? Well, honestly, I was not in the long to what Mr Shom was saying, but I want to define a little bit as it relates to accountability of the elected officials. Now, don't forget that right now we're in the election season, a lot of primaries held across Nigeria, I guess, I think today and yesterday, or the PDP. And you could see on social media the amount that these delegates were expending. Are you seeing the news about people asking for refund of their money or getting a few less votes than they expected or anticipated? Now, it is a system that allows people to pay their delegates or have delegates the time it will become the flag bearer. If a person spends all that money to get to that particular office, there's no thing that is accountable to the people. He thinks that accountable first to himself and his pocket, and then to his colleagues who got him there. So you have a crisis in terms of accountability, because not really, the question says, when you get there, you're supposed to go there and make laws. But the first thing you need to do is to recoup how much you have spent, first and foremost, then try and get some more money to bolster your finances for the next election. So, really and truly, working for the people is not a priority. Now, the only way we can get these people to do our bidding is to activate the recall process. And even at that, you saw what happened with, I think it was Dino Melair that was about to be recalled, but you saw what happened with the process. They ensured that they twatted the process along the line. So there's a process for recalling the lawmakers. We can actually explore the opportunity. But we need to have a strong base, a base that would not be shaken by financial considerations, because eventually you can recall these lawmakers. And that's what happens in every civil society. People have left political offices for less abroad. But in Nigeria, people do a lot of things. There was a senator who slapped somebody, I think it was a senator or a member, I think it was a senator or Abba or something in Abuja, who slapped somebody on camera. I don't know what became of him eventually, but I'm not sure that he left his seat. And you have a lot of instances of people who have done all kinds of things and who have remained in power. So the problem is that we don't have a culture of accountability yet, of recalling lawmakers, of ensuring that people have resigned their offices. And that's the problem we're facing because we just, you know, we have a very, very large bandwidth for accommodating nonsense in Nigeria. We tolerate the law of hardship. We just make excuses and we keep taking it and taking it. And I'm not sure what we said. We are put almost upon with answers on to political interests intervened and it's got through the entire process. But we need to rise up as a people to demand these changes. Otherwise, it's very impossible and impossible for persons who are benefiting from the system to now cause the change that we desire. Like I said, a senator will get to the National Assembly who's been paid these false allowances. Who will not refuse it, whether he's a pastor or an imam, who will not refuse these false allowances because that is what he has met on the ground. And if he tries to refuse it or tries to propose a motion for an amendment, his colleagues will shut him down and ask democracy for you, majority will always have their way. The majority will have their say, but the majority will always have their way. So if you're outnumbered in terms of people who have like minds who want to build a better country and you're outnumbered, then there's a problem because there's not so much you can do if you're in the minority. And that's why we are where we are. And until there's an holistic approach to changing all that we currently have as a structure in Nigeria, I think we will still continue to sing the same song. Well, the other show is a political analyst. Dheji Awubeidei is a legal practitioner. Thank you so much gentlemen for being part of the conversation. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break now. When we come back, we'll be talking about the NMPP and of course their plans to us 2023. Stay tuned and we'll be right back.