 So good afternoon everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for creating space today on your very busy schedules to hear what my colleague Kim and I have to say about changing the way we engage in conversations with the use of debriefing techniques we learned as healthcare simulation educators. My name is Carla Ferrera and I am a new faculty member at the School of Nursing. I hold an associate professor of teaching role and work closely with undergraduate nursing students. I've been an academic nurse educator since 2012. And I started my journey at the University of Calgary where I also received my bachelor's degree in nursing. Simulation education was introduced to me back in 2014. And since then I haven't looked back. Sim is definitely my happy place. And I know that this is also an area of interest for my co-presenter and colleague Kim. Hi everyone. My name is Kim Botnan and I'm sorry if you hear my dog barking in the background, but he'll settle down in a moment. I've been a nurse for 26 years and 17 of those in education. I've been teaching and coordinating in health sciences programs and currently I'm a lecturer. I'm in the position of lecturer and simulation program coordinator for the School of Nursing here at UBC. I've just joined the group, the team in August this year. So welcome. I'm so pleased to see so many of you here today. And before we begin our land acknowledgement, I actually want to acknowledge that this session is being recorded. And it will be, I think you should have heard a prompt in the background there. It will not record the small group activities that we will do later on, but it will be shared with the participants joining us today. So just to begin, I am joining you today from beautiful North Vancouver. I'm an uninvited guest from the unceded and traditional territories of the Sleil-Waututh, Squamish and Musqueam First Nations. And my family and I immigrated to Canada back in 1995. And as a settler, I'd like to acknowledge what a privilege it is to have the opportunity to live and play and work and learn on this land, which is home to many Indigenous people. I'm joining you today from the traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Musqueam people. We invite you to hold space to acknowledge the traditional territories you have the privilege of residing in and invite you to share as you wish using the chat box. Just going to take a look here and see if anybody's popped in where they are coming from today. I bet many of us are coming from there we go. Thank you, Karen. Musqueam as well. Silks to Naksa. Shushwap, Musqueam. Thanks, Ainsley. Okay. So here's our plan. So in the next 80-some minutes or so, what we'd like to do is really spend most of our time together solidifying our understanding of advocacy inquiry and apply the framework that we will share with you a little bit later on using small group activities. It is our hope that by the end of this session, you'll have the opportunity to build your knowledge and skills in relation to advocacy inquiry. And this kind of a hidden agenda too is that it isn't just really about knowledge and skills, but also rethinking our stance and our kind of like the affective domain in terms of how does this land on you? Is this something that you see enacting in your various roles? Okay, so now that we've reviewed the learning objectives for today's session, we would like to get to know you. So who is in the room? And Carla's going to pull up a poll here for everybody to complete, identifying, you know, the department or faculty that you've come from, your main role, and any experience that you've had with simulation? I don't want to cut off everyone, but we're just going to end the poll here and share with you the result. Okay, so we've got Applied Science and Arts. Quite a few others. I'm so interested to hear. So of the other group, who's here joining us today? Education? Nursing and the Faculty of Education. Okay. Yeah, okay, UBC Health. Okay, awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you for joining us today. And then lots of teachers, of course, administration, a student, and other as well, and then simulation. So some of you have had exposure in one way or another to simulation learning. So context, we'll talk more about this, but the context of the tool that we're sharing with you is utilized within simulation learning environments. But we're here to kind of advocate that that is a strategy we can use in many, many areas. Okay, Carla, thank you so much. So we're quite pleased with today's turnout. And what we'd like to also know from you is what about this session? Perhaps it's the description through the website that you read. We'd like to know what was it about this session that got you most curious? We want to gather your thoughts using Jamboard. And so the link to the Jamboard will be posted by Kim in the chat box. And when you follow that link, you're not actually going to see the screen that's in front of you. You're going to need to scroll to slide to the very last slide, which I believe is slide number six. And if you've never used Jamboard before, the button that you really would, the most important button is the button or the icon just below the arrow button. It's called sticky note. So if we were doing this in person, I'd have sticky notes handing you sticky notes right now, but we're doing this virtually. So I'm handing you a virtual sticky note. You're just going to click on that icon to jot down what made you choose this session. What are you most curious about? And Kim and I will reshare our screen. So you can see what others have written down and note that all posts are anonymous. And we're using this time to introduce you to Jamboard because we're going to use the same technology for our small group activity. So pick a sticky note, you can even choose a color and jot down what got you what got you most curious. All right, you're going to find me stop sharing, and I will be sharing the Jamboard instead. Right. Thanks everyone. Most curious about drawn by the word debrief. Yes, briefing challenging encourages. Yeah. Oh yes. So like here's an insider thing when we were coming up with a title for this session. It's quite fascinating being Kim and I are new to working with each other, and we're both new to the faculty. But the first part is actually Kim. And that was that was that was from her. And the last part was my, my, my contribution so this is very special for us it's our first. It's the first time presenting in this big UBC format so thank you so much for choosing this session today. Yeah, this will this will we will revisit this section. Again, but thank you for sharing what what what got you really curious, because I think that's the stance we're going to be taken on for this afternoon. I'm going to stop sharing this one and I'm going to go back to the presentation. So, like I said thank you for sharing your curiosities with us this is a really great segue actually to the main idea of this session, which is the advocacy inquiry approach or style of debriefing. So when just to address the person's curiosity around debriefing. So debriefing is the final phase of any simulated learning or simulation based learning activity, where what we end up doing is we, we put learners through a simulated event. And because given I both work in healthcare, it is usually a healthcare related scenario students or learners who participate in activities, end up using problem, solve their problem solving skills or clinical judgment skills in order to solve a particular situation. And that's not yes learning happens during that moment but it's actually this debriefing section where a lot of the debriefing or a lot of the learning happens. And the debriefing is a time for the facilitators and the learners to come together to talk about what happened, and not just what happened, but why something happened, and what are some of the key learnings. What we want to draw on our key learnings from these experiences because the goal is to influence actions or thoughts that results in certain events. So Kim will, we will visit that a little bit later on. So thank you for, for sharing that. Like I said a great segue to the main point of the session which is to talk about advocacy inquiry. This definition comes from the healthcare simulation dictionary. And what I want you to focus on are the yellow phrases and the ones that are colored in green, the yellow one pertains to advocacy advocacy is what you as the observer. It is, you state what you have observed in relation to someone's performance or behavior. And the inquiry part which is the green part is the part where you ask learners, or the other person that you're having a conversation with to share an explanation of their thoughts or actions. And when we pair advocacy and inquiry together, it results in a meaningful dialogue or conversation, as opposed to just having this back and forth discussing ideas and who's right who's wrong type of approach so let's talk a little bit more about advocacy inquiry. So, what advocacy inquiry is asking us to do is to see conversations we have as an opportunity to engage in dialogue. Dialogue comes from the Greek roots. So, dialogue is a dialogue or dialogue, meaning through or across and log or logos pertains to discourse or talk conversations or dialogues are meant to be a mechanism, a mechanism for us to suspend assumptions and enter into a genuine thinking and that last phrase right there last section actually came from the author of the fifth discipline Peter Sanke so if you've if you've read that book. Peter Sanke talks about team learning and where he talks about the difference between discussions and turning these discussions into dialogue in order for us to learn. And Peter Sanke also said that to the Greeks, dialogue is meant a free flowing of meaning through a group, allowing the group to discover insights not attainable individually. So, what it's asking a what what's dialogue or and Peter is asking us to do is to consider whenever we enter in these conversations to frame it or see it from a we stands as opposed to an I stand solely. What it's asking us to consider is to take a stance where our goal is to understand others perspectives, where they're coming from, as opposed to engaging in a discussion where the stands is to get as many ideas out as possible and where it feels like there is a search for the best idea. The stance that dialogues encourages encourages us to do is to uncover as many perspectives as possible for the purpose of learning so that perhaps we can learn and relearn how we ought to proceed and engage. Here's an example of a conversation between Jason and Monica. Some of you may have seen this video before and if that is the case, what I'm hoping we would that we what we're hoping you would do is to see it in a in a different in a different lens. In the background, we want you to consider how this conversation could have been improved when we pair advocacy, or our observations with inquiry, or the act of hearing the other person's explanation of their thoughts or actions. And this video should take about lesson two minutes. There's all this pressure, you know, and sometimes it feels like it's right up on me and I can just feel it like literally feel it in my head and it's relentless. And I don't know if it's going to stop. I mean, that's the thing that scares me the most is that I don't know if it's ever going to stop. You do have a nail in your head. It is not about the nail. Are you sure? Because, I mean, I'll bet if we got that out of there. Stop trying to fix it. No, I'm not trying to fix it. I'm just pointing out that maybe the nail is causing- You always do this. You always try to fix things when what I really need is for you to just listen. No, see, I don't think that is what you need. I think what you need is to get the nail out of there. See, you're not even listening now. Okay, fine. I will listen. Fine. It's just sometimes it's like there's this achy, I don't know what it is. And I'm not sleeping very well at all. And all my sweaters are snagged. I mean, all of them. That sounds really hard. It is. Oh, come on. If you would just- Don't! Try to see things my way. Do I have to keep on talking? All right. So just a little bit of a recap. You know, I laugh every single time. Earlier we were practicing and we just seen this video and like Kim said, it always gets us every single time. Because it's so relatable. How many conversations have we had or we've been in where it was more of a discussion as in terms of- It's almost like a tennis match, right? So here's what I see. Here's my idea. Here's your idea. There's really no listening that's happening. There's not a whole lot of advocacy that's going on. There's just telling. And I suppose the lesson in this video is it's not always about the nail. Oftentimes whatever we see certain behaviors, it's not always what we assume that behavior is taking place for a whole new other reason. We don't even know it because we haven't yet created space to hear the other person's frame. Let me turn on my volume here. So I'm going to talk a little bit about advocacy inquiry specifically. And the main purpose of advocacy inquiry is to understand in order to facilitate learning and encourage growth. To do this, we uncover the what that leads to a behavior action or outcome, which is known as the person's frame. We use this with learners, but we advocate for this strategy whenever you encounter a situation to ensure that you are checking your facts and building that pool of knowledge from the perspectives of others from their frames that you may have never considered. Thank you, Carla. Um, so what I'm going to do is just walk you through the framework. And later in this session Carla will distill it down even further for us. So it just begins with observation. So you observe an event or the result of somebody's actions. The next piece is to comment on the observation that you had and advocate for your position around it. After that, you're going to explore the drivers behind the student or whoever it is that you're having a conversation with to uncover their frames. We want to understand the actions that they think led to the observed event, or the result of an action. And then together you're going to discover ways to attend to this issue that arose to work towards more of a positive result. So that is the framework. And considering the time of year, I thought we could work with an in person cheating example. Okay, so this is how the kind of the quick and dirty rundown of this framework. So you observe an event. You're circulating around. So this is you. I'm speaking like this is your experience observing the event. So you're circulating around the room. And notice that Joey's eyes seem to find Riley's paper on more than one occasion. So in the moment you remind Riley, or you mind Joey to keep their eyes on their own paper. And they look flustered and really surprised by your comment. You don't want to disrupt the exam. So you ask a colleague to focus on the back of the room where Joey is sitting and then you continue to circulate around and invigilate the exam until it's completion. After the exam, you ask Joey to meet for a few minutes. At this point, you're going to comment on your observations and advocate for your position. So it would sound something like this, Joey. I noticed that your eyes wandered toward Riley's test paper more than once over the exam time. And I'm concerned about cheating and academic honesty. And then Riley would say, oh, I wasn't cheating. I promise you I wasn't cheating. And then what you could say to explore the drivers is, okay, what was going on for you in those moments. And then Joey might say, actually, it's a really long exam. I'm prone to having dry eyes. I'm only giving them a rest from focusing so hard on my own paper. And I didn't even realize I was looking that way. And then in the discovery piece, because it's still not okay, that strategy is not great. You could say, okay, I agree, it is a long exam. And I understand that you were resting your eyes rather than trying to find answers on Riley's test. But that behavior is problematic during test taking. And I wonder if you can think of a strategy to avoid that next time. And that is kind of an example of how you would work through this framework using an AI method. Okay, so continuing on. But in terms of uncovering those learner frames, student frames can also be described as the rationale for their actions. Their actions are the behaviors they exhibit, and these behaviors inform the decisions they make that lead to an outcome or the result here. So if you want to provide you with a strategy to analyze the results by having learners walk you through their actions to uncover their frames, or the ways they were thinking. As we showed you earlier, you may think you know, it's not about the nail, why they performed outside of the expected outcome but until you uncover their frame, which can be so surprising at times. It's possible to provide the right adjustments and could shut down the learning dialogue. And this could leave the student walking away without really understanding what they can do to change. So new frames can equal new actions which will inevitably equal new results, or in our world of simulation. So the way of looking at this is that debriefing leads to new frames and changes later actions. Now that's a lot about the student or the other person, the one that was being observed instructors or whoever's doing the observation also come with frames. As a educator or an instructor a frame consisting of what do I think about the learner's actions is quite different and not as open as why did the student perform or respond in the way that they did. So we want to ask ourselves with this question from a place of wonder and genuine curiosity, so that we create an opportunity for the learner, or that other individual on the other side of this conversation to feel safe in the learning space, and to promote honesty, when we are attempting to discover the frame. Okay, thank you Carla. So Carla is going to, like I said distill this down even further and provide this really great cognitive aid on creating a pale. Okay, so let's put this in a pale. So next time you are in any of these situations where you're really stumped with why is this happening at this time and how am I going to approach or even begin to approach this conversation. So let's talk about pale. Let's try and put it in a pale so PAIL stands for preview advocacy one advocacy to inquiry and listen. I wanted to do this I wish I did but I didn't. It is from the Harvard MedSim. As part of my role as a simulation educator requires a lot of faculty development around debriefing as I mentioned earlier debriefing has been. It's known to be the space where learning where learning happens. And while there are easy debriefs there are also very challenging debriefs and we often engage in hard conversations are difficult conversations because we're really navigating this space around. We can't just see certain actions or inactions as a deliberate response to something at our simulation center. We hold learners in high regard. And when we say that what we mean is that we hold learners. But what how we see learners is that they are intelligent, they are capable, they are smart, they are willing to do their best, and they are in the space that they are in, because they want to truly improve so when Kim says take a stance of curiosity. And that's when we. That's that's the stance that we need to be in is in this holding them to high regard have a basic assumption that they're there and they're really truly wanting to do their best. And in order to use PAIL, it also asks us to change the way that we see the world in order for us to engage in this way of having a conversation. Let's talk about that one preview is about letting the other person know what what it is that you want to talk about. If you are a fan of Brené Brown's work. I don't know if you've seen posters that says clear as kind. This is that I don't know how many emails you've received or an invitation or maybe a text message that says oh I need to talk to you about something. And oftentimes that sends us into a place where oh my goodness, am I in trouble depending on who's requesting to have a conversation with us. Oftentimes we think am I in trouble am I going to get fired what did I do wrong. So preview signposts for the person you want to talk to kind of to prepare themselves what it is that we are going to talk about. And if it's not you that that requested to have a conversation and let's say the learner or a student says I need to talk, we need to talk about this paper that I failed. You can ask for more clarification I said yeah I recognize you want to talk about your paper what is it about what it is about your paper that you would like to talk about. And this allows you to manage the the cognitive load of what this conversation would look like, and it allows you to prepare advocacy one is all about offering our observations right so this is when you will say, I saw x, or I heard why. The thing that I have adopted using the pale approach is the prompt I noticed Kim, I noticed that when we were at this meeting. I noticed that you looked really upset and that concerns me because our relationships really important to me and and I'd like for us to. To hear what what was going through your mind at that time. So advocacy one is offering that observation I also attached advocacy to in that example that I just gave advocacy to is all about offering your perspective, I think I'm concerned because. In in the healthcare simulations that we have done a great example that we usually are an example that we use would be during chest compressions and students sometimes do their chest compressions and they're either going to slow or going too fast. And we know that there is an appropriate rate that they need to follow. And when we're not seeing that rate being followed, we get concerned. And so usually what this would sound like would be. I'd like to talk to you about. How you approach that. How you did your chest compressions. What I saw is that you were going below the recommended rate of at least 100 compressions per minute, and I'm concerned because that's not enough in order to do x, y and z inquiry follows. And this inquiry part begins with I wonder, or now that I've mentioned that what do you think about it how do you how do you see it. And the hardest part, I think is number five, which is to listen. This is when we need to sit on our hands and here for those frames. And oftentimes learners would say you know what I've never actually done chest compression before I never realize how much of an effort it is to meet x, y and z expectations. And when we uncover these frames during this moment of listening, we can then correct certain misconceptions, knowledge gap in order to influence future results. So hang on to or open this up in your in a separate browser. This will serve as a cognitive aid for when we move into the activity just to remind you of how the different sections sound like, or could be phrased. And then we'll walk you through the activity. You will need the Jamboard link again for this and I will post that here as well. And Kim, take it away. Okay, so I'm sure I'm, yeah, I'm muted. Okay, so we are going to ask you in small groups to create your own pale based on your observations of this short funny light video. And after you do that, create your pale together. We would like to offer one group to, you know, share what they went through and we can look at that and offer some feedback. So, before, you know, without further ado, Carla, we can load up the video and Carla will walk us through the Jamboard again to make sure that everybody understands how to work through this activity after we watch the video. Okay. Any questions before we play? Carla, I just want to say that Cynthia, her volume was asked if we could turn it up and I, I don't know if we can do that on our end, if we can that would be helpful. Yeah, my volume is maxed on this one but I'm going to see once I play the video. I can see if I can. Yeah, Cynthia, let us know, let us know what it sounds like for you. I had my volume up at max as well. And it was quiet, hey, I figured yeah, yeah, okay. Okay, so bear with me here I'm going to play and then I'm going to see if I, if I note a volume button. Yeah, at the bottom. My friends call me Flam. Mr. Biles, can you tell me what you did wrong? I fell down. No, no, before that. Can anyone tell me Mr. Biles' big mistake? Let's take a look at the tape. Here we go. Right, there, see, the door, you left a wide open. And leaving the door open is the worst mistake any employee can make because... It could let in a draft. It could let in a child. Oh, Mr. Waternews. There's nothing more toxic or deadly than a human child, a single... Alright, thank you Carla. So just what we'd like you to do now is go into your breakout rooms and try to prepare a pale that adds a facilitator that is a little bit more conducive to learning. So in that taking on the role of the facilitator in that simulation and preparing a pale for that dear little monster who was just trying to work his way through a learning scenario. Okay, so let me just reorient you back to the Jamboard. The link is in the chat box. And what we'll do then is we'll put you in smaller groups. And what you will do is depending you'll be asked to or you'll be randomly placed in a group. And what we'd like to ask you is to remember which breakout room you are in. Your breakout room number will correspond to your slide number here on the Jamboard. If you are in breakout room, breakout room number one, then you're in group one slide number one. If you are in breakout room number two, you just hit next frame, quite fitting for what we're talking about. And you just go into the second slide and you fill in slide number two. You just put that under preview jot down. What are you going to say in your preview? And what are you going to say in your advocacy one. And our goal is to help. So we're going to ask Mr. Bile or Mr. Bile and Flint, who is the monster facilitator to have a conversation framed using the advocacy inquiry framework using pale. All right. So far so good. So let me just put you in groups, which I don't think I can do. breakout rooms. Oh, there. Never mind. I have it. It was just me panicking. All right, so we are 12 in the room. Maybe we'll make four rooms or three rooms. Okay. So you're going to be pulled into these rooms and make sure that one person does the note taking and can has that the note taker needs to have that jam board. Yeah, in order to document your, your, your statements and your, your questions. And then we'll give you seven, eight minutes for, for this one we'll do a check in you'll notice Kim and I popping in popping out of different rooms just to see if we can offer any help in any way. And then you'll have a warning a one minute warning saying wrap it up. We will come back to the main room as a group. And then Kim will lead us into a micro debrief of that situation. All right. So far so good. Thank you for the head nods and here we go. I'm so sorry Cynthia. Cynthia got pulled out of the room mid sentence. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, I'll be quiet and let Kim take it away. Okay. So, okay, I want to actually go back to your point Cynthia in a moment that you were trying to express because I think it probably something relevant for the entire group. All I want to do is just a quick little, you know, kind of what went well and what was challenging so, so what was surprising and really easy about, or, or natural about the task that you had in front of you. Anybody. Was there any component that that was like, okay I got this. Well those five letters that's pretty clear. So it was good to have the, the, the memory tool like that, that, that memory aid right. Karen, your hand is. Yeah Kim thanks for I just thought I perhaps open the door that are kicking close door. I shared when we started our conversation but I actually thought it was. Very comfortable and familiar with. What's it called the AI inquiry approach but not so much in the class. And so I thought as a non native English and coming from a different cultural cultural context. It's a very soft way of having a conversation. And so I actually think what a great when I saw it what a great introduction to having a, what could possibly be a difficult conversation and really appreciating the emotions that may come up for students and, and ensuring keeping the focus on a safe environment. Thank you Karen. Thank you for sharing your thoughts around the AI method. And so I guess anybody else was there anything, any, any comments you'd like to make before we start to unpack some of the challenges that you might have had. Cynthia, did you raised your hand. Well I was going to talk about the challenges. Okay, so I wasn't really familiar with the whole context of Monsters Inc. and, and sort of the cultural component of, of being a monster and the Monsters Inc. And so I think that is a really critical point for our learners that our learners might not understand the context that they are in. And the observer might not know the learner's background or their cultural background or what the objective is and so I think that's really a critical piece because once we didn't know a few of us in our group didn't know. Well, why is it important that the door is open or closed like for us that wasn't a key element, but in the context of a monster, it is so yeah. Thank you. Um, so if it wasn't, it would be your observation of the learner or of the exp, you would be intimately familiar with the circumstances, you'd need to explore the frames because you may not understand. You know Karen you even pulled in like cultural, their own cultural frameworks their own whatever that might be. But when we're using it in debriefing a simulation which we were trying to emulate with you. You would have known what the learning objectives were for that simulation. You would have had all of that upfront. And we just, you know, pulled out this this piece of of the video so the importance of having all of that is your right, you need that you need to understand what the goal was and you wouldn't have known that if you didn't have familiarity with that film. Well, Ellen, and Ellen's left the room but she actually mentioned to that you know we need to know more a bit about the monster culture to understand why that that specific behavior is is of concern. And then you think about the many times that we have been in a situation where we work with new teams, and you have no idea what the culture, what the water is that you're swimming in. And AI sometimes helps as well to say this is my observation I'm noticing that I'm noticing that there's really a need or maybe people it's very strict that you must follow these rules and that's what I'm noticing that's what I'm observing I'm curious to hear what people's thoughts are about that because where I've come from and what I've been exposed to this has been the pattern. So this is when you can open up that discussion around. What am I, what, what is it, the, why is whatever I'm observing. Is there a cultural component or that you're not privy to quite yet. Go ahead, Pierre. I'm wondering if it would have been helpful since the movie was very short. If you had played it twice. And we would have had the opportunity to catch much more. Okay, go so fast. I. Yeah. There's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of visual coming at you in that in that clip. For sure. Thank you for that. Also, we could, when I set up the activity, I'll give you the goal ahead of time. Yeah, a little more of that. So, I want to kind of bring our debriefing piece to a close for this activity. We have about 20 minutes left Carla. We have one more activity that we, we'd like you to work on just to give you another practice at creating the advocacy inquiry statement so if the group is open to that we can share one more type of example so you can get another crack at it. Or we can sort of summarize the learning here today it's, it's a small group of us now. So, and I, I'd like for us to, so there are two scenarios that that we'd like for you to think about, and maybe this time around. It might be a little bit more familiar to us because it's, it's either going to come from an academic standpoint, or perhaps also drawing from our personal experiences. The other scenario to think about is that you're grading a midterm paper, and notice that one of the students didn't address any of the components of the rubric. And as a result of that they failed this paper. And now they've come to see you during office hours to discuss this paper. And the other scenario that your group might want to consider to create a pale is your child comes home from school, or, and forgot to bring home their range jacket. And this isn't the first time it's happened this is a behavior that's that's happened before, at least three more times this year, and you've had to replace this jacket once already, I swear, this is like my son. And so, as you can draw from those two experiences, or the third option actually is to come up with a scenario that you were just in that you feel comfortable sharing with your group. And let's, let's reflect on maybe perhaps a conversation that's already been had and see how, how AI could reframe that approach to that conversation. So what you, what you'll end up going back to is that jambore, and there's the stickies are the scenarios are posted there for you. And, and we'll, we'll watch you, I noticed that the group that I was observing I noticed that you all worked well together, I noticed that it was easy to come up with a preview. You came up really quickly with your first advocacy. And it's almost like when I was hearing you talk about your advocacy one, you needed to know why you wanted to talk about that advocacy one first. So you almost have to think about the advocacy two part. It's like that door being opened and how you entered in that room in the way that you did is problematic because and then you had to almost like work backwards in order to fill in those statements. But yeah, that was my observation of that group. I thought that it came naturally for, for, for those folks actually. So let's give it one more try in the spirit of deliberate practice. And, and then we'll, we'll summarize everything. And then at the end of this one, we would welcome one of you to share the jam board, and we can walk through and see what was missing do we choose either example yeah one or the other is fine Sue, and you'll see them listed there when you open up your jam board. Okay, so it was a group group one or group two, I guess. Yeah, so just rejoin your, your previous group will put the breakout rooms up and you can choose your own. So basically the last couple of slides is just us, we're doing it already and then the very last one is a list of our references. And as always, we value your feedback. Let us know how we can tweak this presentation better. What worked for you what didn't work for you the link is in the chat box. Kim and I would really appreciate to hear from you. And thank you for your engagement. And what Kim and I will do will we will have the copy of the presentation for you with all of the live links. And in there too I will have articles that you could refer to in to advocacy inquiry, and another form of debriefing, which, which other if you are into simulation might be also helpful, just to expand that, you know, your declarative knowledge around around this concept of AI. And as always, if you ever want to have a coffee or a chat or a coffee chat. Kim and I are such simulation geeks, and we're, we're happy to, we're happy to chit chat. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so thank you so much. Just one thing that I don't I want to leave you with it because I don't want you to leave here feeling that you always have to use this strategy. There's a there's a time and a place. And sometimes just what you said, just cued me Cynthia is, they may not be ready for this so you don't always need to do it right in the moment like it might be one week later, you send a message to the students saying, you know I noticed that that you were showing some some discomfort in our last conversation. I'd like you to come back so that we can explore this further. So that's your, your, your piece right so it can come later because if somebody's really fueled up. I could work, but it's, it's challenging, especially if you're not really slick with the process and it's a learning deliberate practice you have to practice it all the time so I'll leave you with practice on your, your partners, your family members, your colleagues anytime you can try to pull something together, give it a go. Okay, that's it for me. Well thank you very much again, and we hope that you have a great rest of your day and hopefully we get to see each other again at some point. Happy holidays. Thanks so much. Take care.