 Good afternoon everyone. My name is Hadi Rangin, a member of IT accessibility team. I would like to welcome you to our monthly webinar series. Today we will be discussing how we can utilize or use a screen reader as a potential checking testing tool. Okay, let me tell you what we will be discussing today. First, we will be talking a little bit about the difference between technical and functional accessibility. Then we talk a little bit about what and how we test it and what the screen reader are available, how a screen reader works, and then some common features that we look usually for when we are testing. And then later we dive into a kind of live demo. And finally, we have time to work questions and answer. Good luck. I usually go over time. Technical accessibility. I would like to, just at the beginning, we understand the difference between functional and technical accessibility. They have a big difference. When we talk about technical accessibility, we usually focus on accessibility of a specific item by itself. For example, we check that if a button or a form control in general has been coded according to the recommended standard or based practices. So this ensures that the assistive technology have proper access to the button as needed. Note that in this method, we are checking the element by itself. And it does not give us any holistic view about the overall accessibility of the page or the process that we are testing for. In the functional accessibility testing, we focus more on overall accessibility of the process. Examples that I have considered you go to Google or Gmail and you want to send an email. So we check. We consider the entire process of finding the compose button. Being able to navigate to it. Trigger it. And then go through all the components or the fields. Compose your email. Run the spell check. And then send the message. And then get the confirmation notice that you have successfully sent the message. So when we do the testing like this, we call that functional accessibility because we want to check the entire business process as a whole. And as you see that for each step, we need to make sure that all the elements that we are interacting with are accessible. And then we can get to the next step. And of course, this is the right way to do it because that way you get a holistic view of overall accessibility of the page or of the process. So to summarize it, so for the functional accessibility, we need the technical accessibility. Yeah, I think that is a short message. So accessible techniques are required. But you need both aspects of the accessibility to make sure that to make sure the application that you are dealing with are or is accessible. So we are talking about accessibility. I mean, how we can use the screen reader for that. But I am very, very skeptic to recommend developers go ahead and start with the screen reader testing because the screen reader program are super complex. And then it is not... I do not recommend that people go and just start testing with the screen reader because you might get a lot of incorrect results because you do not know how to utilize the screen reader or are not familiar with hundreds of functions that they offer. So before you test, you need to understand the basics of coding practices. So you need to know that, for example, for a button, what features you are looking for, what behavior you are looking for. And all of them are available through the ARIA-based practices or HTML-based practices that you can go and read and then see that, you know, what, for example, a button should behave on what features it should have. And then again, when we are testing, we do not want just focus on technical accessibility, we want to focus more on functional accessibility. And then frequently we see that sometimes, you know, they confuse accessibility with their personal preferences. Yeah, there are situations that we have to choose or we don't have a strong opinion. But please be careful that you do not impose your personal preferences and set it as accessibility behavior or feature. Other thing that you need to test that, so again, there are numerous accessibility testing tools that you can use and to get some idea about the technical accessibility problems. And then you can utilize them and you can utilize them and get a good overview, a good understanding about the technical issues. And I need to emphasize that the screen reader can partially help you to check for some accessibility problems. And then then one thing that I want to mention that, you know, that you probably see that in some application they tell you who, if you are a keyword user, then you have to go a significant needs more complex process or through the different process to do it. Or if you are a screen reader user, call us or do this or that, you know, we call all these things as a bandage or work around solution. So I just wanted to emphasize that work around solutions are not accessibility solutions. And when you are testing for accessibility, you run into a lot of issues and make sure that you do not get lost into it. So I see that sometimes, you know, people are focusing on just a font size are not consistent or fine. It's too small too big, which is, which is, there are completely valid issues. But when you are doing that, make sure that you get on the bigger and then item or more impactful items. Hey, howdy. Yes, sir. Your zoom window has made its way to the top of your slides. Not yet. There we go. The zoom toolbar is still visible, but the zoom window is gone now. Now the zoom window is there. If you, if you like, I can request control and make that go away every once in a while. Okay. I'm actually not sure how to make the toolbar go away. Howdy has a keyboard shortcut that was working earlier. Which I did that, but it seems it didn't work. It did close it. It did open and close it, but then the other window keeps popping up. It's not, the toolbar is not too great of a obstruction. We can still see your slides. Sorry guys for inconvenience. Thank you. Okay. So when you're at your computer, you have still control. Make sure that you don't screw my window. Okay. Thank you. So what we are testing, when we consider you bring a project for us for accessibility testing, we usually, the first thing that we do that we perform is consistency throughout the application. So we check for the visual consistency, visual functional consistency, meaning that we make sure that the same feature or similar features are implemented in the same way. For example, if you asking in one page for, just to make up, you know, gender information, if you use in one place a, you know, combo box, and then in different page you use a radio group. So we consider as inconsistency. And we would love, you know, within the application framework, you use the same consistency. Proper user elements. So you will be surprised how many times we run into the applications that the people are not using the right element for the thing that they want to do. The common issue that we run into that is, you know, the use of links versus button or radio group versus check boxes. And then, so because each of them, they have different meaning and then if it is not implemented properly, you just cause confusion. Keyboard, keyboard upper ability, we want to make sure that you can tap to all the focusable element and you can perform all the applicable functions with keyboard, just keyboard. And then remember, when you are going through the keyboard testing, you want to make sure that you never get lost. So the focus indicator should be always visible. So do not blame your eyes or, you know, or age, if you cannot follow that. Logical tab order. It means that when you pressing tab key, it should go in the logical presentation that it is in front of you. It should not bounce back and forth, go top, down or in a direction that you are not expecting. And one thing I would like to mention about the shortcut keys and that is one of the really biggest problems that I am dealing these days with is some people, some applications, including Microsoft application, they are offering sometimes hundreds of shortcut keys. And then these shortcut keys do not are not considered as accessibility solution. Shortcut keys are good as long as they are a handful, they are meaningful and they are consistent. So if you look for example, let me say application that I am mastering these days is Microsoft Teams and you will be surferized how many of the shortcut keys they have because they fail to provide consistent navigation within the application. So they came up with the shortcut keys, sometimes you are at the control shift, something, control alt, something, and sometimes alt shifts and it is a mess. So we do not consider shortcut keys as accessibility solutions. So when we get there, for the next thing that we are looking for the ARIA landmark, for those of you who are not familiar with that we use, ARIA landmark is a mechanism to provide a kind of semantic meaning to different regions. So in other words, when you look at the page, you can easily see how the page is constructed, how the application is constructed. For example, you see some banner or a banner, you see some navigation bars, sidebars, footer and so on. And landmark provide that mechanism for us so we can see that this page consists of five things, five major components, and then we can easily navigate to it. We might not be able to tell you to say where they are, but we can see that these are major components. So we want to make sure that every element is residing in one of these regions and then the regions have meaningful names and labels. And then the next thing that we check is the content. We check for the content structure. So we separate the application or website, infrastructure, or framework from the content. So one of the first things that we look in the content structure is the heading. So we'll make sure that the page, the content section of the page has a proper heading and they are meaningful, they are logical and hierarchical and they are complete. It means that they offer headings to all major sections. So practically, the headings, the list of the heading should give you an outline of the content on the page. So there are some other stuff that can go with the structure for the content. It's a grouping element. If you see really related items, you want to see them in a group or as a list. They can be grouped as an order or an order or definition list. Graphics, so meaningful because of informational graphic and a graphic that provides some information that you think it is useful to the audience. They need proper text or description. So it's going to be there to know that what is the purpose of that graphic. Forms are getting a little bit more complex because the form we are interacting with the page or with the elements there. So for the simple thing, simple form element, we said that all form elements regarding their button, input text, combo box, check box, radio group and so on, they should have meaningful label and this is a very, very well defined best practices how to do it. When we get to the more complex widgets, for example, for the complex widgets like expand, collapse, a carousel or menu, it requires a little more in-depth knowledge about that and you need to know that how to interact, for example, with menu and what should be expected when you get into a disclosure or expand collapsible element or how a carousel should behave and then the purpose of the form is that you collect some data and then you submit that. But during that process, it is very possible that you run into some warning, some error, some requirement that you have to know. For some time, you know, format, for example, you are entering the date, all this stuff must be communicated in a kind of accessible way to all users and then during that process, when you submit that, the system should be able to deliver any error message or any warning or if it has been successful, a verification notification or verification announcement, something that people can see and hear and read or whatever. So I am not going to discuss about the accessibility of menu screen reader in Unix or Linux system, but for Windows, what screen reader we have, the one Windows we have, the traditional screen reader in North America is JAWS followed by NVDA and then narrator. JAWS is a commercial one, NVDA is pretty free and the narrator is a built-in screen reader from Microsoft until a couple of years ago. It was practically a toy, a useless thing, but in the past years, they invested a lot of resources to it. So I think it is coming along and then becoming, is getting slowly to become a sophisticated screen reader program. In Mac, the major screen reader is voice over, it comes with Mac and it is beautiful, you know, that the user doesn't have to pay extra for them. Android, we have a talk back and there is another system that I don't remember and then here is the statistic of the screen reader usage. I checked that this morning, this result is from last June, yeah, June of last year. As we go, move forward, we see that the NVDA, which is a free screen reader, is getting bigger portion of the market, so and JAWS, which is a traditional screen reader, is losing market a little bit to voice over and NVDA. So we will be sharing these slides with you and you will have access to all the data here. Omen, how much I emphasize that you should not start with the screen reader testing unless you know what you are doing. So remember screen reader are made for screen reader and for end user and they offer hundreds, if not really, maybe several hundred functions to help screen reader user to operate, to be able to interact or read the information. So some screen reader like JAWS, they have some algorithm to guess for the lack of the accessibility features and JAWS is one of them. So this is another red flag why I said that you should not use screen reader for testing because you get a lot of wrong result. NVDA tries to stay within the spec and then they do not usually provide information that or they don't do guessing. So their result is more reliable. Now here we would like to make an announcement next month on May, if I'm not mistaken, May 19th. We will have our Global Accessibility Awareness Day and like previous years, we will be offering a series of events and workshop and then I invite you to join us. A part of the Global Accessibility events that we are organizing is an introduction of the basic accessibility testing tools that you or everyone, regardless of your developer or and user can do and get some information about the technical accessibility problems and then we would like to offer also a workshop into how to use screen reader for accessibility. I call that checking, not really testing how we can check for accessibility feature using screen reader. So the announcement we send to the usual list including accessible work liaison and UW and I'm from there. Watch for your for watch the announcement. Okay, now we get to the screen reader, how it works. So let me explain to you when you get to when you're using a screen reader. So you do not, yes you can. It is free. I've got the text message or the chat. It was packed in. I heard that. But when you are a screen reader user, you do not see the entire page at once. You see only one piece of the information at the time. So for example, you see the logo. Of course, not the old logo itself. The old text that goes with that with the logo. You can see one heading. You can see one graphic or you can see one list item. You can see a data cell. You can see a phone control button or everything, but one at the time you do not see the relationship between these items. So, but beyond this jungle, there will be difficulty that you see if you use, provide the structure, HTML or R or properly, you can provide the structure so I can see, for example, a specific data cell with their column header corresponding column header and row header. So again, you can see one data cell and then if the table is made properly, so you can see the column header and row header. Or when you are in a phone control, so you see just a place for the, for example, edit box, but you can see what this edit box is programmatically related or connected to the adjacent label. So how do we do it? You know, if we see only one element, so we have to just tab, press tab key, to go from one focusable element to another focus element. If we did that, so we wouldn't be able to see the regular text. You wouldn't be able to see any other non focusable element. So that's why the screen reader needs a mechanism to discover the page. So different screen reader use different terminology. The terminology that we will be using here we call that browse mode or reading mode. So what browse mode or reading mode is that in this mode, that the screen reader gives you a kind of virtual view of your page. In that view, you see everything. You see the focusable and non focusable elements with all those associated labels. This is the format or this is the mode that we usually use to discover a new page. To see that here, what is the page? If you take me to a random page, I have no idea. I mean, how big is the page? This is just two paragraphs or 200 paragraphs. What does it contain? Does it have any form element or how many forms does it have? You can imagine how complicated it is. But using these features, screen reader features or virtual view, I am able to discover this page. So when we get to the live demo, I will show you, for example, when I can tell you what are the major component of this page. Because the screen reader they see from the document object model behind the scene. And then it tells me, hey, these are the major component or these are the heading of this page. So using all these features, they help me to understand almost how the page is constructed and what is the content. And then the beauty of that is that I can also navigate to that. So in summary, I mean, if you don't understand, don't worry. We will be covering that in comprehensively in that workshop. But that is one of the most complicated concept of the screen reader. So reading mode or browse mode versus interactive mode. I just mentioned that interactive mode. In a browse mode, I am just in a reading mode. I read and discover the page. But if I want to interact with it, then I have to switch the mode and go into an interactive mode. One thing that I forgot to mention that when I am in a browse mode, in a reading mode, anything that I type, screen reader will capture it as a command. For example, when I am here on this page, if I type letter H, letter H is never passed to my PowerPoint application. So it is passed to the screen reader captures that and interprets that as a command. As if, I mean, the command is, you know, go and find the next heading for me. But consider if I have in this page or any web page, if I had a text box where I needed to enter my name, we should also start with H. So in order to be able to type it, so I need to tell the screen reader here, switch or turn off this, you know, turn off the browse mode or reading mode. And now, after that, the screen reader just passes everything back to the application. So when I type H, so H goes into the edit box. So again, if you don't understand that, don't worry, it is really complex. But I don't think that you need to know all this stuff. So I think I briefly talked about all this stuff on this page. You know, we can tap to go to the next link. We can, you know, identify, for example, I can tell H, go and find the next radio button for me. It finds that. Oh, there are all separate commands for these navigation commands. I can go to tell that, hey, go to the next edit box or go to the next heading. I mentioned that, or go find the next graphic and so on. We will show them. So can we use it? Yes. Can we use the main screen reader for testing or checking? But remember always that this is not designed for accessibility testing. And then the best way that I can say that you can verify an issue, but not determine the issue. And then you cannot do that for keyword operability at all, because the screen reader offers a separate functionality that if you are not using a screen reader, you might not be you might not be able to do it. One thing that I need to mention that when you read it in the documentation, if somebody said, oh, we are JAWS compatible or something, I mean, JAWS accessibility stuff, we do not have such a stuff. There's just garbage. So bottom line, do not use it unless you know what you're doing. So this is kind of a thing redundant. I'm telling you that use those accessibility tools. And then note that the accessibility tools can catch, I guess, my guess up to maybe 30% of the issues. And then there are a lot of issues that you have to do that the manual checking or testing. And then this is some recommendation we have, you know, if you run into some accessibility issues, you know, some developer might not know that be polite and friendly and then, you know, contact them and refer them to the right resources or engage them at least in that conversation. So here are the next three slides I am offering. I'm giving a very basic commands of screen reader and VDA. I didn't have the voice over here. We don't need to go through that. You will receive the slides and you will see them. There are basic commands on how to get to the next heading, how to get to the next graphic, how to show the landmark, how to shut up the screen reader that it doesn't talk. And then so it is something that you can study that offline. Now let's go into testing. Some of you might have seen this page. So Teriel has created two identical, almost identical page. One of them is, I call that fully inaccessible. Another one is fully accessible. They look very, I mean, identical or almost identical. Visually you cannot say that. But from one of them, this version, whatever you have is accessible version. I think I don't want to waste your time by showing the inaccessible version that looks exactly like this because I can do anything. I can just read from top to bottom, but I cannot interact with any of those elements. I cannot even understand how the page is constructed. But while I'm here, and I would like to show some of those features that I talked about in action. So note that when we come to a page, we as a screen reader user, like you, the first thing that we get is just an overall view of the page. I call that application framework or page framework. And then that is what are your landmarks is for. So I am asking my screen reader to tell me what are the major components or what are the major landmarks of this page. That is a screen reader command. So it is in the list of the stuff that it is in the presentation. So it tells me we have a banner region. We have a main menu type of navigation region. Main is really main region. And this is a form region. And this is a content info. This is I think an ugly name for footer. So I need to emphasize, I need to maybe add that there are seven predefined regions. One of them is banner. Navigation is the next one. And then we have form. We have main, which is designed for the main content information. There is a footer or content info, complementary. We have, I guess, search and a few more, a couple of them. But these are what you see. There are the major things that are used. So again, I cannot tell you where the banner is. I can guess what it is, usually on the top. But I cannot tell you, for example, how this main menu region is arranged, unless maybe I go and then explore it. I cannot say that main is on the left side, the right side. I'm very likely on the right side. And the form, I cannot tell you where it is, but I know that somewhere past the main region and content information. So I assume it is the button. So some people, like myself, who has been visual for a big part of my life, it's important for me to know that I have a kind of visual relationship with this stuff. Okay. So I decide to go to main. So the beauty of providing these features is that when you have, you know, they not only provide information about the region or how the page is constructed, it helps me also to navigate to the desired region as well as I want. So now my focus is right at the beginning of that region. And then, oh, I need to unshare my screen and share it. And so you can hear the screen. Okay. I'm sorry. Okay. Um, hold on. What do I do? Are my sharing? Accessible university demo site accessible version of Google Chrome. You guys hear my screen? Yeah, yes. Okay, that's good. I will test it earlier. So we've changed the volume so it is not an annoying level. So let me go back here. Select the voice profile. Okay. Zoom in. Accessible university demo site accessible version of Google Chrome. Accessible university demo site. Short cut keys I have to remember. So that is the page that I was. So as you see that, this is a, we called a banner. Main menu navigation. Main menu navigation. Main. And content information. So again, I click on here on main. So I need to, if Dan was here, he would remind me, slow down. Slow, slower, slower, slower. Virtual to PC accessible university virtual PC accessible university. Now the next step. So now I know that the major component one. Now I want to say, what is the content? What the content I press another shortcut key. Heading list dialogue. Heading list view accessible university one. And it lists for me the headings use on this page. So what you see is a heading and what you see on the right, it is the heading level. For example, the first heading that I am on is the heading level one. She's good so it's a good heading one should be used for the as a main heading for the page. Future stories like show to feature stories to know that showed me this numbering this hierarchy hierarchy they provide they give me the relationship between these headings welcome to welcome is to be in when either to can use lots of barriers to another heading to a new enrollment trends to apply now to security question three. Now we said the security question number three. It tells me logically that it's a memory. We're at 345. Thank you. This shows me that he is part of apply now to apply no now section. So that is where we emphasize, you know, the hierarchy. So hierarchy is a key in providing heading. Apply now to so if I want to go for example to a new spot to bear me in the needle to this section which sound the Spanish and her heading level to be in the needle. As you notice that I go back again to the section of the page suggests that you may be a welcoming institution the inaccessible design of this page sends the opposite message. So I am going now to that that heading heading level to be in the needle. As you see that is switched to the to Spanish this voice automatically I didn't do anything. But the key is that behind the scene. Somebody in this case in Ontario made the proper language transition. So here this text that we are entering is a Spanish. So screen reader automatically switches to that language is if it is available to the accessible university. Wow. It's a university fictitious. It's a passion. It's a passion. It's a design. Okay. Now I told you that we check for the for for keyboard accessibility. And then I would like to check the main keyboard main main the headings. The main navigation section region's dialogue region main menu navigation. So I am navigating to the main menu region. And show menu keyboard shortcuts but menu sub menu collapse menu. So if you say I am just as you say I'm using my hand I'm doing that with the keyboard. I'm using press right or key to go to the next menu. And then I press arrow down programs one of distance learning three or four libraries. Escape key. It closes that admissions three or four and admission and then I press it down. This is the only option I guess. Okay, but missions three or four visitors four or four. And it tells me as you've probably heard that here. Visitors four or four. It even tells me that is a menu item four of four. But and we know that they have some options here. But if I wrote down events one of three is that the events one of three, it even tells me there are so many there are three sub options. Visitors are some of that. So let me see that I want to show you about the picture or graphics. Successful in this game. Select a graphic dialogue. I am bringing up the list of the graphics robot with a friendly face assembled with various scraps of hardware and mounted on the old desktop speech synthesizer. And I want to tell you that writing good. All text is an art. So that there are some some practice that we need to do that to master that creative commons license. Accessible university. Okay. If I want to go to, oh, to escape escape, for example, the table, there is a table that you probably see that. Viewing port. 2007 new enrollment trends. 2000 CS row to total 84. 2007 zero eight. Can user, can you see the table in its entirety or just a portion. Yeah. No, we see it all. That is great. So you can see the table I wait for a second so you can familiarize your table. I think it shows that the enrollment student enrollment for 2000 2000 for two years. And then it's some factors, you know, that has been recorded here. But let's browse together. Total row three. Is it a total? 2007 zero eight CS 84 column two. Did you hear that? That is a CS. 2007 zero eight N126 column three. This is the, the, the, I think the major. 2007 zero eight equal 43 column four economy. 2007 zero eight by 32 column five. 2007 zero eight by 32 column five. I didn't get that. 2007 zero eight side 112 column six. Okay. 2007 zero eight spot 59 column seven. 2008 zero nine CS 82 column eight. Oh, this, this one was CS but the other one was here. So when, but when I go to the, for example, how many males. Percent male row for percent male. 2007 zero eight CS 89 column two. So it's at 89, but it's read the information related information above. 2007 zero eight and 84 column three. And 84%. And then if I go find down percent female row five percent female. 2007 zero eight CS 11 column two. I hope the statistic has changed. It's not that way to me. It sounds like when I was a computer. I mean, a student many years back when this was from last century. But hopefully the statistic has changed. And 350 p.m. 350. I can show you a lot of stuff with the screen that how it works. I can show maybe the form control name required and required invalid entry. It did you ever repeat that name required and required invalid entry. It said that name record field invalid because there is no data here. So apply now form region name required and required invalid. I type honey. Honey email required and required invalid entry. But you hear that it tells that. At or at a required. It's required. And city as pop up Seattle. Seattle state slash province edit as pop up. Was it slash postal code as pop up. 98155 other than one. I would never for 955. I guess 98,955 country edit as pop up. Autofill this box expanded United States audio engine one to four. Accessible university demo site accessible version of virtual if a cow is purple. What color is it? It required invalid entry. If a cow if a cow is purple. What color is it? It required invalid entry. I want to do that. I'm making mistakes. Great. Submit button. Now. Now see that we did submit. Thank you. Thank you. Your application has been received. Submit, submit check box, not checked by regions nine editing and seven links. So you hear the confirmation. And the confirmation is really is the essential for it when we are interacting with form. So we want that for a successful submission. We get the confirmation so user know what's happening. We have seen in some of the transaction that we do online. You submit the form and you have no idea. Did you go through or it crashed or what, what happened? Okay, that is the so far I wanted to share more about it when we get to the promise workshop for global accessibility. We're gonna stay. So now we can open the floor for questions. We have a voice of chat today. Hi, howdy. It's Adam. Okay. So if you want, you prefer to open your microphone and ask questions. Feel free to do it. But you can also ask via chat. We do have a couple of comments I'd like to share with you. Really great to see here this in action. Thank you. Thank you so much. I have to dash, but this has been great. I look forward to the workshops next month. You. Thank you. So if anyone has a question for hotty, feel free to unmute yourself to ask your question. Did you say you'd advertise those workshops? It will be coming. We'll be posting that soon. So we are, I guess working on the. Registration page. Okay. Thank you. I assume you early next week, you will be seeing in your mailbox. Great. Awesome. Thank you. And that workshop, you will be also covering Mac. Voice over. Mac. No, of course. How do you, this is a tarot. Not, not seeing any other questions at the moment, but I just wanted to. Comment or discuss the table. It has the column headers and that all has good table markup, right? You're able to navigate through the columns and rows. And it was reading those column headers. But it was reading them kind of cryptically. So they're all acronyms and, you know, and you sort of got stumped on, on, uh, Phi and Psi and spa. Yeah. And those actually have abbreviation, HTML abbreviation tags. That do spell out what they. Accessible technology for everyone. The full, full version. Beyond the acronym, what I just asked for. I think that's a setting within JAWS that you have to enable to get that to read aloud, but even when you have that enabled. What I've discovered in JAWS is that when you're reading the column directly, it will spell those out and read them. But when you're in table mode and, and it's announcing the column headers, it does not. So even if they're, if they're coded and you have acronym abbreviation expansion enabled, it still is not going to read those when you're navigating, you know, as column headers. So I think I don't know if that's a feature or a bug, but just enough FYI. Yeah. Thank you. Now, I think that is the reason many years ago I decided to turn off the abbreviation. So otherwise, because when it is, it does that, then, then I cannot do that the proper testing because I do not know if they have to spell that out or it is the result of the, or, or not. So, and then as you mentioned, there's community that are not always handling them in the same way. JAWS has decided to spell it out, but, but I consider that as a bug. Some people may say that as a feature. So if somebody does that, put there. So this is for the purpose to, to spell it out. If somebody like me decides to turn it off, then I can turn it off, but they should not decide for me that if I need it or not. These are the sorts of issues that, that we encounter and why, how do you have all those cautionary notes about, you know, testing with a screen reader. Because it is often you'll, you'll hear something. And you're not sure, you know, if it's because you coded something improperly, you know, or what, what's going on there. And so having that, you know, an insider's knowledge as to how your different screen readers work, what different settings are, there are hundreds of settings within JAWS and almost as many within NVDA. And, you know, there's really no substitute for, for having, you know, an actual user, somebody like Hadi who, you know, uses this tool every day. Those of us who don't use it every day on an ongoing basis can learn a few key strokes that can kind of help give us a sense for what a screen reader, you know, might read this page like, but, but it's not, you know, not the same experience. I mean, we are out to two minutes for the top of the and in last last minute for questions. It usually doesn't happen that I finished. We didn't go over time. Keep keeping you on track. Yeah, exactly. But thank you. Thank you everyone for coming. Hopefully you found the, this, this presentation or give you some idea about accessibility testing. With the screen reader. Let me use accessibility. Checking. I am afraid to say that testing because we are really not testing we are just checking, you know, how screen readers handles that. But talk to you next time. Similar webinar and enjoy the rest of the day. Thank you.