 Okay, let's let us get started Welcome everyone to the March 2022 meeting of the racial disparities in the criminal and juvenile justice systems advisory panel I'm a ton nest red and long of chair and Let us start with introductions. I will go down that List that I have sort of on the right-hand side of the screen and I will start with a phone number 342 2468 could you introduce yourself? Yeah, sorry about that a time. I'm on the phone right now. I'll be getting pure later It's Christopher Loris from crime research group and the Vermont criminal justice council And if you guys don't mind like to share something Yesterday was the citizenship ceremony for the first Syrian family that got to Rutland in January of 2017 They turned it around in five years Lovely great to hear Thanks, Chris Tyler Good evening everybody Tyler Allen Commissioner appointed designee from DCF and I just wanted to an extend a Appreciation to all the women on the call today. It is International Women's Day. So thank you so much for your leadership And your presence Susanna hi Susanna Davis racial equity director for the state Thank you Jen Furpo At Jen Furpo Vermont police academy Jeff Jeff Sir, sorry about that Jeffrey Jones XPSP and at large Hey Mark Hughes Hey, time. What's up? I Love family. I'm I am Mark Hughes. I'm the executive director to Vermont Racial Justice Alliance and I'm still here it Good to hear Aaron Jacobson Good evening, everybody Aaron Jacobson Vermont Attorney General's office great Jessica hi everyone. My name is Jessica Brown. She her pronouns. I I'm an at-large appointee to the panel and I am a visiting professor of criminal law at Vermont Law School great Barb Kessler Hello all Barb Kessler Vermont State Police co-director of fair and impartial policing Thank you Evan Evan mean in from the Vermont Department of State's attorneys great Elizabeth Morris Hi, Elizabeth Morris juvenile justice coordinator for DCM great Ching Hi, it's Ying Ren. I work at Shelmar Farms Evaluation and program analyst Also, happy International Women's Day to those on this panel who want to celebrate Yes Thank you Sheila Everybody good evening. And yes, happy Women's International Day. I will take that. Thank you Clinton she her Pointed by the Attorney General panel member and executive director of the Root Social Justice Center great Julio Leo Thompson Attorney General's Office say Tracy Nichols Hi, um, I'm just here. Hello. I don't know if anybody well she was hurt me until it's Jessica. Hi I'm just here Listening for now at the moment Okay, welcome Thank you Rebecca Hi, everyone, Rebecca Turner from the Defender General's Office Okay, Monica Hi, everyone, I'm Monica Weber and I'm from the Department of Corrections Witchie Hi everyone, my name is Witchie. I pronounce he and his at the International Women's Day I am a data systems expert and social justice advocate appointed by Susana Davis director of the Office of Racial Equity right and Judge Zonae Good evening Tom Zona chief superior judge And I would note a time that I looked at the minutes for the last meeting I was here But apparently it didn't scroll down far enough to get to the end to ask me if I was here last meeting But I was there I promise Okay well That will lead us to what I didn't put on the agenda Which would be approval of the minutes and There's one quest. There's one issue that needs to be addressed Is that judge Zonae was in fact here? Are there other errata or Additions that people need to make to the minutes Yes, um a ton I too was here and was named in the minutes But not named as listed to being in the meeting. So I too was okay Very sorry to both of you. I was in good company though, so I don't mind There it is, right? There it is. That was my fault not a ton. That's my mayacle, but so I Will certainly amend the minutes to reflect judge Zonae and Sheila Linton's presence. Sorry about that Okay Anything else that anyone has about the minutes from our last meeting and I would like to just say Aaron those are wonderful I mean they are so detailed. I Was just really happy about that. I know you had issues. You thought maybe they were too detailed I thought they were lovely Okay, good. Well, I have to say that I learned a lot at the meeting and then Drafting the minutes helped cement it for me. And so once I was done with the minutes I frankly wasn't sure what I could take out. I thought it was all really helpful information that was shared and discussed so Absolutely Thank you very much so if anyone else has There are no other corrections or Changes that people feel need to be made a motion may be made at this point This is Sheila. I'll move to approve the minutes from February 8th With the corrections with the corrections with the corrections, please. Thank you Okay Seconded anybody. I'll second. This is Jessica Great all in favor. Please signify in some fashion Hi Great all opposed All abstaining Motion is carried minutes are approved with the two corrections. Thank you very much The in that for announcements I want to there are a couple things that I've wanted to do as First off chief Stevens cannot be here. He is off Visiting family and he says also trying to reclaim a share of sanity, which I think is a wonderful thing I'm very Very pleased with both of those So he will not be here this evening The other thing that I wanted to just bring up is that this is probably Not gonna be one of our longest meetings As you all know many of you better than I it's crossover Which means everybody's attentions are at about 50 different directions at this point So we're gonna get done what we can get done what has been done this week I'm sorry this month and Go from there and I just wanted to put that out there It's unlikely we're gonna go to eight o'clock, but I don't want to have things just sort of hanging around Of course feel free if you need to That's what we've got new business for if you've got something that needs to come up That's the place in which to bring that I Think that's all I have for announcements anyone else That would be a resounding. No, okay You will recall when I sent out the letter about well, there were two letters one had the link and one was just sort of Sending you a bunch of information that Evan had just so assiduously gathered About one of the issues that we brought up last month about our future direction having to do with our responsibilities under statute to the police academy and to the criminal justice council and We will talk about that in a moment The other things that I didn't I kept sort of hinting maybe tantalizingly that there were a couple of other things irons in the fire that I hoped would sort of bear fruit and the one thing that I really did want to bring up was just an update on H5 46 the bill that grew out of our report of November of last year And I have to turn that one over I was I sort of prevailed upon executive director Davis To see if she would do it and she very kindly said she would I've been sort of out of the loop on it And I'm not quite sure why but I have been But in any event I think there are others of you who are less out of the loop Others of you who are more out of the loop and I'm just hoping right now to get us all Roughly on the same page. So Susanna. Can I turn this over to you? You can I just don't know if my audio will reliably carry me through. Can you all hear me? Well? Yes Okay, so the update is brief and I'll be frank some of you may have newer intel and I do but Last I checked which was I think yesterday morning. Oh, no, no, let me back up first Just for those who are not sure what this bill is Yes, it is H5 46 which would create a division of racial justice statistics Of course, this is the panel that worked on that primarily to create that recommendation It appears that it is still The trajectory that they are likely to put it in the office of racial equity I know that was a big concern for people in this group It appears that that remains as they have it and It has left house judiciary with a unanimous vote Of approval It skipped past house appropriate. No house government operations When they conducted a straw poll indicating that it would Pass in a normal vote. So it made its way to house appropriations representatives Christy and Lalonde both appeared numerous times in Appropriations to Give a walkthrough of the bill and to answer questions for the other members The chair of appropriations indicated very strong support for the work itself She particularly noted how pervasive racism in remont is and the importance of being able to Track monitor and then respond to it. So if that's if that's an indication of the bill's success in that committee, then there that is A representative Lalonde has been asked by other members of the committee to discuss Whether and why not the duties of the advice Oh the advisory council the proposed advisory council which started out at being 18 members and then was up to 20 members has now been dropped back down to seven Real meteoric rise and fall there And the reason is because there was a lot of discussion about whether Every entity that was involved needed to be a sitting member on the advisory council Or if we just needed to be able to talk to them regularly And so they ended up landing at having Many of the designated agencies that are state run Having them just designate a liaison to the advisory council someone we could count on reliably to be participating Without having to have a voting seat. So the So the advisory council itself now is down to seven members Which includes the six community members with lived experience that includes the People with lived experience with substance use or with mental health or with Negative outcomes for criminal justice in other ways. And there's a seventh. I cannot remember who that is So that is the advisory council. And so the question came up about whether those duties could be assigned to the existing Racial equity advisory panel Which as you may remember is the five member advisory panel that was created alongside the executive director of racial equity There were good reasons for and good reasons against but representative Lalonde And I both shared the sentiment that it's probably better that it not be rolled into the racial equity advisory panel for numerous reasons, but among them being the ability to provide some level of independence By not giving these duties to a panel that is advisory to the governor and also um because the existing racial equity advisory panel has staffing that is Pretty much enough to cover its existing duties, but would not be sufficient to cover the added duties Not to mention the level and nature of lived experience that we're looking for for this work Is not currently represented on the panel. So we would need to expand the membership to be more inclusive. So it seems like the trajectory is to keep the pen the advisory commission at seven To keep the advisory commission separate from the racial equity advisory panel And the staffing the rep the staffing. This is another big one um Instead of starting at five staff for the first two years and then whittling down to three It appears that they're just going for three staff throughout which is one project when lead one project lead Which I think we were referring to as a deputy of some sort and two Analysts, I think one would be a data steward and one would be an analyst But I'm hoping that the crg folks here can correct me if I'm wrong about that that is What I know And that's fabulous. Thank you Questions or comments witchy I apologize that I've been a little in my a Um, but I really appreciate this update and sort of how it's gone through and where we're out Um, I just have a question when you say data steward What does that mean? I don't know bro It There is a definition for that. I I I don't know it. Um, I got one. That is defined I don't know What it is is you you got Organizational you got data owners. Those are the business process owners the the business unit owners the folks who were, you know, responsible for Getting the work done that we're talking about the directors the managers The data stewards that would be digital services Data stewards are folks who are actually they are charged with The oversight of managing those systems in housing those data So that's typically where you hear data stewards is folks who have responsibility for You know providing access and control to the data providing availability to the data confidentiality integrity to the data protection All of these systems that are associated with it, but they don't necessarily own The process is associated with the access to the data. Uh, in so so the business unit actually owns the data Um, thank you mark. Uh in this position of the data steward, where is that definition home? That might be a question versus honor That's just I might be able to dig that up. Just give me a second. I know it's in an email somewhere. All right. Thank you Is honor. This is rebecca or maybe a vent nose or other reason this call He's you said, um lost and landed. I saw that It's this went on house appropriations committee right before The legislature broke for town meeting week last week and this is the critical week crossover week And I just saw I took a look at house appropriations Agenda for the week and it does not look like 546 is on the agenda for the week Does anyone know on this call whether It's it's going on any committees Um agenda this week I do not the money bill. It's got another two weeks Oh, okay. Thanks mark Thanks I just searched the um the schedule of all of the committee meetings that have been Scheduled or calendared for this week and it does not look like it's being taken up any time this week I If there are oh Susanna's got Got it. Thank you. Um If there are concerns This would be a good time to put them forth because I do think It's certainly possible to get these to both coach And to representative lond Um If you don't have them now But you might have them in the next few days or something I would encourage you to please shoot me an email or you can speak with them directly, of course You don't have to go through me But that's I I just think that that's That's Critical. I mean this the the bill has changed from what we recommended. We knew it would We certainly knew it would so, um If I would say don't be surprised by that, but if there's something here that is just truly egregiously awful Um, we should get that forward I'm sorry, witchy. I just saw you say something and I Anyway, so all right Other question, uh, go ahead witchy So just to clarify so there's only three positions now out of those five and that's analyst p.m. And steward Yes, so who's in charge of building it? That's a good question So that was what we had the advisory board for Well, the yeah, I think what what i'm struggling is Uh, like you still need to you still need the technological platform to house the data, right? Like you can you can put all the data governance you want you can analyze anything you want you can You know have have a project manager. That's all great But if you don't have the technology to house the data, you're not you're not analyzing anything So I don't know if then the duties are then shifted over to ads And then if so are their resources going to ads to help with that so they can hire a data base administrator or engineer So that's sort of like we're like it's it doesn't make sense That if you're building a warehouse and you have and you don't have an engineer to build it Yeah, so I think that's A very correct question to ask and so I'm looking right now at a document and I would share it But I don't have permission to so I apologize for having to paint you a word picture instead, but I'm looking at a document that Estimates costs This was put together by the agency of digital services and they testified on this in a public hearing so I'm not completely out of the box here, but The assumptions are that the project manager Which would be an ads staff person would be needed for 1.5 to 2 years So that's the outlook that they're putting for the project manager A database administrator slash data engineer would also be an ads person At 0.5 fte so a halftime person. Oh, no wait, that's for de-identified data if we're using identified data then that would be 0.75 so a three-quarter time person Um project manager is still one full time regardless and then Three hc In division. I don't know what that means. It also includes Sorry folks if I had the technical ability to know what I'm looking at I would do a better job explaining this Yeah, and it has um an allowance for three dashboard licenses Which I'm assuming is the total number of people they're anticipating would be accessing this and and working directly on it Yeah, that all makes sense to me and that answers my question. Thank you so much So again, oh mark go ahead Is there any definition around? the term systemic racial bias and disparities um and also Did was there a conversation about I don't remember where the conversation landed on This entity having an expansive responsibility for racial equity data across All social determinants I was just wondering where that conversation ended if there was a brief response to that Yeah, I think there's a piece in the bill that says That the day that they can request any data that they deem relevant Which I think is where social determinants and other upstream factors comes in I think the first part of that question was around First part of that question was around the nature of the the data is saying that the data that they're analyzing In collecting is related to quote systemic racial bias In disparities and I was just wondering if that was actually defined anywhere I I can I can take this a little bit Go for it Yeah, so one of the things that was part of that bill is that advisory panel and the reason Why we have people with lived experiences is to address those systemic racial biases So when we talk about data infrastructure and data and like the foundation of data Systems and implementing some type of ethical framework to be able to bring about equity We need to think about the different perspectives of how that data is collected and used analyzed and Then used to make decisions So by having that advisory panel with folks out Whose data is being collected whose data is being analyzed right with people lived experiences that you know Their data is supposed to reflect that then we're able to address those biases that otherwise wouldn't have been addressed so In that kind of sense the the advisory panel is supposed to provide an inherent equity lens to that data process And in addition to that as the governance Comes out one of the things that we suggested. I don't know if it made it to the bill but Was the toolkit that was given to us about like how to can how to use the data are constructed or create data sheets to be able to have transparency And equity practices within the governance data governance structures And that did not make it into the bill that I do know the toolkit did not Go in there Evan I was just going to add that if the bill passes in its current form Then the bureau would have the legal authority to engage in rulemaking And that could be a legal mechanism for the bureau to answer Some of the questions and flush out some of the details That are not answered in the bill itself So there's some flexibility For the bureau to engage in these kinds of conversations through that legal mechanism If the bill itself does not end up Answering all of these questions and resolving all of these issues Okay Okay Anyone else Okay, as I say it would be useful if there are objections I would first of all to help ask people To take a look at it on the legislative website And further if there are major objections I think it would be a good idea to forward those To the sponsors and you will see who those are If you go to the website, I mean representative lalanda's one Representative christie is another Maxine grad and Hal polston I don't think I'm missing anyone But if This is the time To put things in I don't know where that will go But I do know that that was asked That if there were just moments of Real discordance between our Intents that at least letting people know that was important So I've done my due diligence Anything else Okay Susanna, thank you You were you you were you were more involved in that than I was And I was hoping that You would be able to provide all the information that you did. Thank you All right moving on Um The to what is in fact written on the agenda You will recall but last month we spent a lot of time talking about Directions for the our DAP and we formed Two informal subcommittees One being evan and I that we were going off to talk about um our Responsibilities our statutory responsibilities to both the VPA and the criminal justice council And then there was another subcommittee that is still Coming together That will include um when it gets going Uh rebecca and jessica And that was looking at a lot of things that Came up in the report of 2019 Uh, we were talking about amplifications Uh Points that had already been made That in another sense protecting our work product And pushing some of those ideas through and forward Um that as I say that subcommittee is getting going still So tonight what I what we have is The work that evan Mostly put together with the congress um from a conversation that he And I and director heather simons had about um the issue of Our responsibilities to those entities that I made And evan would you like to take over at this point and describe Where we're at because you sent off a lot of wonderful documents that we've been able to look at Um over the last week Sure. Yeah, and and my intention is not to to spend a lot of time talking about those documents It's it's really just background fyi type stuff The uh the only one that I want to reference In particular is um our enabling our our dApps enabling legislation which is three vsa 168 and um subsection f Outlines the things That we're supposed to be tackling which are many and uh One of them is to make recommendations to the criminal justice council About model trainings for law enforcement officers including but not limited to trainings on deescalation and the use of force And at the last meeting I explained that The criminal justice process or the criminal justice council was in the process Of revisiting its rules Which in part address those very issues Both the certification requirements and the uh in-service training requirements for vermont's law enforcement officers And I had explained that um the rules committee Had paused that work And was seeking some recommendations from other committees on the council Like the training advisory committee um And the entrance testing committee and um As aton noted we had a conversation on I think it was Oh February 14th, I think it was valentine it was valentine's day Was it? Okay, it must have been you don't remember aton. We spent so much time together. I thought it meant something to you But we had a conversation with heather simons who is the executive director of um Of the of the police academy And she gave us some information that I thought, uh, this group might be interested in She feels and and I think is is this is this is probably an appropriate thought that it's about time for the academy to Try and do a comprehensive review Of its current curriculum both, uh For the certification stage and the in-service stage of of law enforcement training in vermont and on She has asked the legislature for an appropriation To hire a consulting firm to do that type of work Uh, the appropriation has not come through yet But if it does she anticipates going through the state's standard RFP process to try and hire a consultant to engage in this type of uh This type of review um That's likely going to take a long time because she doesn't even have the appropriation yet But she was very receptive to the idea that rdap may be interested In providing some input in that process for example um What types uh, what type of um Information might want to be included in an RFP a request for a proposal like What types of consultants might be good for doing this type of review? What types of subject matters should the consultant be reviewing? um What type what subject matters should be addressed in any certification process or training? And what type of community engagement? Uh, the council should engage in Both during the review and then also when revising The rules regarding what the training requirements are So I think that we have a lot of time to decide if we want to get engaged in this conversation And also if we do how in depth our recommendations should be So I don't necessarily think we even have to answer any of those questions tonight um One helpful thing Could be uh as a potential next step would be to hear from Some folks at the police academy to get a better understanding of What the current curriculum looks like? How what subjects are covered how much time is spent on each subject? And that might help us decide Is this one of the tasks that we're supposed to tackle that we want to tackle at this moment in time? um And also if we decide to tackle it how Far down the rabbit hole do we want to get and how specific would we want to get and any recommendations that we make? um, so that's pretty much the update for this evening And I do my best to answer any questions if folks have them witchy I feel like I always have something to say um Good Thanks. Thanks for this for this update evan. I I just sort of had a comment Something that I think could be valuable for you to know Is that you know when we've had conversation at least here in windham county? We did a community safety review Uh, and we talked about sort of what kind of police folk we would we would want? um It talks a lot about the escalation tactics and when I talked to our previous town manager, peter elwell He mentioned that, you know At some point we had hired police who were trained and focused on the escalation Uh tactics, but then ended up going to the police academy and just quit right after that because of the culture or the training or whatever So it might be worth considering, uh, you know folks who are trying to do police reform like I don't know mayor The the mayor of barlington or or you know, peter elwell or these people who have been trying to change these systems Like maybe they have insight about That training curriculum or you know in the directions that they want to go towards community safety or the escalation tactics And seeing and seeing what can be dug up there Yeah, that's what it that's a great thought and You know, I would I mean, I think that we can we can certainly ask anybody We want to come and give us information to help us Make a decision about whether we want to tackle this and how and and if there's folks that folks like that that that have some insight into the Current academy curriculum that aren't embedded in the academy. I'm sure that'd be a very helpful perspective Would it be convenience and helpful for us to put a list of possible Uh, I was going to call them informants suddenly going into anthropology here um together to um Get a sense of who we would want to ask Um, I wanted to comment a comment on that aton too and thank you Give me a press so I would love to have like a spreadsheet or something to be thinking to understand where people's minds are thinking around this area I am Particularly, I don't know if how physically invested I am but I am definitely mentally invested in this topic in terms of In terms of how this is done and as I was reading Some of the materials that you set Evan I was thinking about like oh all the things I've been hearing from either those people I know who either work in the jails or people have come in and done presentations Or what so have you and in speaking to witchy's point as well as part of that community safety um Round up and We I'm feeling like we have to be part of this and I think we need a broader community and Going back to what we keep on saying is most impacted folks That I'm very concerned of what an rfp would look like so i'm really pleased to hear you say Maybe that we're starting from that point in crafting what that rfp will look like because I have a feeling That depending on how that rfp is crafted will leave out most people Who I would consider valuable for this job? and that may not be always looked at because We keep on saying well, they don't they're not in the justice system or they don't know They don't really know officers have to go through so they can't really give feedback on the trainings, right? This is a common thing that's been said on this panel. And so I would like to um Be able to have an entity that's not just versed in necessarily the criminal justice system But that is inversed in the connections and relationships with people who are most impacted by the criminal justice system And for those voices to be uplifted in the rfp proposal so that we can get more of eclectic or more of a I guess in a way what I would say is grassroots from the bottom up I I don't want to see these bougie entity to this is what they do come in and um Basically replicate the same um things that are going on so some of the questions that I had and maybe this is getting into the weeds around this is um You know some of the materials that you sent out talked about well best practices of social science research and I'm like, hmm Are those really best practices? So I'm just as I'm not delving into the nitty-gritty necessarily of what everything is there's certain terms such as that that stands out to me that makes me think like whoa is that is that um social science research bedded in white supremacy culture And are we just perpetuating something because we say that that's what best practices But what best practices is is actually not what's best for us as people And so I'm interested in teasing out and dismantling a little bit more about what those terms really mean What those practices really are how the difference between what is said and what is done? And I think witchy's point is really valid that this is about um systems change and about um Culture shifting that if we are not to shift the whole culture then there's going to be a rub so for the people who are currently in the academy are not going to be able to Be brought up to speed per se And then there's new people coming in and then there's just a there's friction And so we have to invest in this as a cultural shift and as a systems change And make that as part of the rfp rfp of what we want to have people be working on Great Thank you. Sheila Jen First I'd like to say Sheila. I really appreciate that you brought in The term shift the terms of shifting culture We are often at the police academy directed to or encouraged to add training to basic academies which To the basic academy, which really only affects the recruits as they come out And we have a saying that culture eats training for breakfast. We can take a bright shiny eager Lovely young person and turn out a fantastically trained recruit, but if their agency culture does not support The training and the attitude that we want them to have It goes away pretty quickly that shine comes off so fast and it kind of breaks your heart when you see it um So I threw in the in the chat something that may be helpful for folks as they're considering what they might like to um To suggest I have put a link to our training curriculum summary This gives all of the topics that are taught during the the level three academy And how many hours each topic is given that's as much as I can just throw out there for you right now I also want to point out that that a level three Academy officer is very different than a level two Academy officer and both of them are working on the road. So that might also be something that while you're Looking around on the academy website You take a look at the difference between the level two and level three training and the scope of authority of both types of officer And lastly, I think if you wanted to bring anybody from the academy in to talk about our curriculum Cindy Taylor patch would be The best person she knows this curriculum probably better than Anyone anyone of us on staff um And interestingly There's a fairly good number of us on the academy staff who are non sworn and have never been police officers So we are definitely open to information from and input from non sworn folks as well and I'll I'll hush up now Great. Thank well not great that you're shutting up But I mean great that you put that out there. Oh, I'm really on my game tonight. Thank you Jen Julio Julio Thank you. Um So, um, if the the group is interested, um I'm I'm pretty well acquainted with The head of the NAACP legal defense funds policing project which Is engaged in with a number of cities and states on training on like training evaluation and reform and community engagement um Fairly recently like in the last I think it was last two months She did a training for all of the all of the state AGs about how to engage community. Um, and um They deal at the NAACP LDF deals with a lot of subject matter experts Um, and and if folks are interested I could connect connect her either to the entire RDAP or to a subcommittee to talk about How to set up our RFP? or ideas to consider maybe examples of RFPs as well as, um uh thoughts or um ideas about uh community engagement, which is usually like multi-stage So just let me know if you're interested in that right Thank you, Julio Sheila I again, I don't know if this is an appropriate time to ask or not But um since we have some maybe people who might have the answers to the questions I thought I'd ask them I I kind of had a question around this topic around um hours Um, what I hear a lot from those who have been through the academy. It's like we did those hours We have four hours of this we have five hours. It's very Broken down into hours. I've never actually heard it Refer to in any other way over the decades of conversations that I've had so my question is Are we meeting the hours? Are we meeting the need or the content? Or is it like as long as we got the 58 hours? Does it matter if you bullshitted it through or not? Or if you got this training or not? As long as you made up that you checked off you check you checked in and you checked out It feels like that and I can say that For some people who have been through the academy They've said it feels like that for them too. Like yeah, we just had four hours on that poopy poo Whatever it was like whatever and so that's one question to have and a similar question I have around the hours is is around complete satisfactory like What does what does the completion of these hours or course or training or whatever it means? Is there a pass or fail? Is there a grade? Is it you get below a c-minus? You got to do it again? Like what does it actually mean? And what do you have to do? What is the scale rating? Like where's the test? Like who's the greater Of whether you pass these things and is it what are the words used? Is it mastery? Is it proficiency? Is it a plus like I'm very curious to understand What satisfaction completion of these trainings mean and the hourly part as well Jen I am so excited that you brought up hours versus Versus skills. That's another thing Right. So we like right now there is that lovely bill and I can't remember the number that is suggesting that we make That they that fair and partial policing become a 10 hour training and a 10 hour biennial update We don't hate it because it's more we hate it because Then I as the person who coordinates that training has to fill an arbitrary number of hours Every other year. I don't get to say Here is this topic that The community and our sub and our training committee has told me is important that officers have expressed a need and get And give them the best possible training to get that out I then have to I instead have to worry about is it enough hours? Is it too many hours? So we at the academy prefer to train to The competency trained to effectively covering the topic um the whole Pivoting to the whole How do we how do we grade them? There's a variety of ways, right? Some things are Weighted differently than others some some things if you attend the training you have considered you're considered to have Satisfactor factor really completed the training Some there are learning assessments, which might be a written test There might be a scenario When we talk about the full-time academy, there's assessments at various points attached to different training topics and then there's also Um, not just classroom type pen and paper test, but we have practical scenarios where folks have to go and um Try out these skills Right. I spent a good couple of days this this winter Running throwing a door open and running out screaming at the recruits that they had to get in there They had to get in there to see if I could unnerve them force them to run into an unknown and dangerous situation or possibly hopefully not Decide to shoot me because I was waving my hands with a cell phone in the air So they get tested with these things um And a bunch of different ways. I think the reason that you see all of the hours on the Curriculum summary I sent you is because we have got a relatively short amount of time Um 18 weeks is a very small amount of time to to teach somebody how to be an officer And we have to account for that time At these we get these folks up at 6 a.m We put them to bed at 10 and every minute between they are either learning practicing eating or studying So that's that's hence the hours I know there's other hands up. So I'll let people talk, but that's the culture. I want to change Yeah, okay Uh ching and then rebecca Uh, I'm not very familiar with the work of police academy, but just from a background of education and assessment and it sounded like uh You already have assessment system in place And I'm just wondering if it's it would be helpful to do an inventory of the assessment tools in terms of a justice named partial Policing and to see if these tools actually meet the need of what we want to assess or evaluate like the programs how many hours or program are effective and uh, what the learning outcomes of The the program or the training And also talking about culture change and back to Sheila's point And I think one of the tools that we could potentially use is the logic model And that's what we oftentimes use in education settings and in terms of cultural Change and in terms of you know, if you want to build a sustainable cultural change, it would be useful to Clarify or specify what we are really trying to change and what It would take to create these changes and what we need to do in the next steps Okay Thank you, ching. That was very helpful. Thank you Rebecca so I wanted to Comment on the enabling language that Evan that was helpful that you provided in the list I was just looking at it as you were Presenting and discussing and the highlighted portions of the our dapps enabling language and so far. I've heard us focused on Through the work or thoughts or approaches to addressing that piece of the enabling legislation as to Let me pull it up again here I'm providing recommendations to the criminal justice council As to maybe model training to law enforcement What caught my eye about the pieces that you highlighted Evan sections f2 and 3 was that It's actually I what was interesting to me was that it was broader providing recommendations not just to the criminal justice council, but to the vermont bar association And not just concerning training or even concerning law enforcement, but I'm looking at Again two Best practices on model trainings, but policies for Again best practices and policies for Judges I'm skipping over law enforcement because we focused on that but judges correctional officers and attorneys Including prosecutors and public defenders to recognize and address implicit bias So I just wanted us while we're touching down on this particular subsections of the enabling legislation that we don't get Tunnel visual and just to the council what was interesting to me Is the invitation or actually request that we provide recommendations directly to the vermont bar association? I'm not sure who if there's anyone on this panel who's also a member of the vermont bar association I also wanted to share in this moment that I know that The supreme court has just I think created a commission and maybe judge zoney Can can talk a little bit about it, but it's it's it's directly relevant to the work We're doing with and it's important for us to know that we have another partner By way of the creation of a commission from the judiciary on on these overlapping issues And so I just wanted to put that out there as we think about it Whether it's in this context of the enabling legislation Or not, but what I like about this Is sort of what shila touched upon earlier not just sort of Well, just the opportunity that we're presented to broadening our Our support supporting groups broadening the messaging to certain community communities and thinking beyond law enforcement again I appreciated shila's and others in Point which is that we need to bring in community voices and and really not just hear from People within law enforcement people who have been training law enforcement to just sort of talk to us about the same I like how our process of that data system build how we really sort of brought that to the beginning of Of deconstructing and recognizing the implicit Implicit biases and structural racism that we comes into play when we just think about old systems in you And so I heard shila that you said that when we approach this that we need to be Questioning the very terms themselves and and who we're hearing them from and making sure that we lift up the voices I just like the fact that the vba Is included in here specifically from the legislature and also that they want us to think beyond Law enforcement. So questions here are do we have any direct overlap here in the panel with vba? Members and maybe I don't want to put judge zoni on the spot, but I'm excited to hear about the judiciary's initiation of this commission with overlapping interests in this area okay Let's get back to that but let's mark's had his hand up and let's do that and then we'll go back to To where you were rebecca mark Thank you. I wanted to offer up that You know, there was some some of you, you know, quite a You know, quite a huge Evaluation of the berlington police department that happened over this last year with a lot of community engagement From an outfit called cna And that report is a that's publicly available And I think just probably about yeah, I'm in 160 recommendations there and john mirad and us are working through that right now here and so For what it's worth cna is out there. They seem to do good good work I don't think I don't think anybody's talking about the quality to report or the proficiency of the folks who Delivered the services and I also want to piggyback on what uh, rebecca said hi rebecca um wanted to piggyback on what you said about the Just the nature Of the work when we start talking about what are what are we actually looking at here? I know, um, I don't I think Evan, you know applauding evan for returning to the enabling statue, but I think if there were recommendations made in your report I would recommend that you return to those reading from the minority report outward or to it as One of the things just specifically to your point rebecca was is that um The vermont criminal justice training council and the bar association recommendations Is is that the panel as directed by title III? 168 f2 recommends that the vermont criminal justice training council and the vermont bar association creating conjunction with stakeholders and develop infrastructure to provide querying and training analysis, but then it jumps over to um some other things there and I think what I really meant to read is is the training consults um The yeah, uh, yeah, so there's the the infrastructure as well as the the infrastructure to provide querying and trend analysis capabilities for data collection and then there's also model fairness diversity policy And systemic racism awareness training and these are As quoted in title III the enabling statute of the racial equity executive director. That's the language used there state's attorneys offices judges juvenile justice dcf Corrections and also we noted community justice center network crime victim services and other justice system contractors So yeah, definitely to that point and I think in addition to that Another recommendation for the vermont criminal justice training council Was is to create a framework that will support the collection and use of use of force data in conjunction with existing race data processes Make as a priority to creation of a of model appropriate use of force Deescalation and cross-cultural awareness policy and to create an adopt model training Academy one-time black and in-service appropriate use of force training. So there were Some recommendations. The other one was insurer adequate resources tools mandatory wellness Very important wellness maintenance checkups as well. So um Yeah, there there was and I do believe if I recall correctly that there was Some recommendations that may have come out of what I'll refer to as the majority report That came from the from you about 18 months later. This one was released as you know, uh on the second of march in 2018 but The main point is is just that yes The dog the tail should not wag the dog here What really should be happening is is as by statute, you know, the hope would be is is that there would be recommendations coming out from this body Uh, as opposed to the council coming back to this body and saying hey, this is what we're going to be doing What do you what do you guys think? I think there's already been some stuff that's put out there Um, thanks for the time. I gotta get off to um vital study. Um, thank you for allowing me to speak and here's the minority report Bye mark. See you later. Um Anyone else My gut is telling me From listening to all of this that what We need to really have smiling Um, which my gut is telling me from listening that what we need to do is sort of get a lineup Of people to come in and talk with us And to address this body now The uh that seems fine to me My other question though, uh before doing that Concerns do we want them just to come in and talk broadly or do we need to have some focused questions? Because that's where I mean I I could go either way on this um I mean my sense is Talking broadly might be good for brainstorming, which is what we're doing right now And that perhaps we have them back in a more directed capacity later on and Then have particular questions That in fact the brainstorming session itself might lead to questions Um, I'm just throwing this out there to sort of get us Going and the other thing that I want to put out there is I am personally completely I don't know jazzed electrified by Qing's idea that we really need to do an inventory That is like classic That is a classic move that needs to happen and it hasn't happened And I just want to put that out there. That's all Um evan and then julio I was uh, I was thinking of the same exact thing as as you aton that maybe the next logical step was to Um think about the folks that we might want to hear from I'm starting to get the distinct impression that julio might be one of those people He seems like he knows a lot about this subject matter and and could help steer us In the right direction I definitely appreciate rebecca's point about the Other portions of the enabling and uh legislation that talks about attorneys including prosecutors and public defenders and Correctional officers and my intent certainly was not to leave them leave them out But you know, I I just simply knew that the criminal justice council is going to be engaging in this exercise And so that was the one component Of the enabling legislation where we're not going to have as much control over the timeline You know, we can dictate. I think our timeline on the other stuff But I I wouldn't want to get behind the eight ball on On what the council is doing so I think your suggestion makes a lot of sense aton and and I'd be happy if if people wanted to sort of email Either you or me or the two of us Suggestions for who we might want to hear from Then we can put together the bus. Yeah, and we can put together a list and go over the list next meeting and Make it make a decision make a group decision about who we might want to hear from And I I also like the suggestion of hearing from folks who Might provide some insights into what type of inventories the council should do Um in addition to just what type of people might have Thoughts about specific trainings To both the process folks and the subject matter folks Ching is this something that you're interested in? Pursuing in some I mean do you have time for this? I'd be happy to help but obviously I need to work with someone else who wasn't more familiar with the system Right, right. Okay um and Jen would that be Cindy? Possibly. Um, I would go through Go through the director. Yeah, but I think ultimately at the academy all roads lead to Cindy at some point Okay, Erin can I ask you to just make note of that because I will not remember that I have to do that Okay, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it Rebecca So I um, I I'm going to voice a contrary Suggestion than what I'm hearing which is to start a lineup of speakers who should You should hear from because I think that's the cart before the horse And I say that with the appreciation that we meet once a month for two hours And I also say that with the appreciation that I'm on that subcommittee that was supposed to Come back this month and it just didn't happen With essentially the relevant reports including our own Where we actually already landed on recommendations that we thought We had previously worked hard to determine What were our priority? Subjects where to go next and what I'm hearing happening today Is we're defaulting to next priority item being related to the council And now we're talking about lining up speakers related to that My drop down on the enabling legislation was just interesting in terms of seeing how much broader it is before We decide by falling in this pattern and taking up the next two months three months Four months of wonderful speakers on this particular subject. I think we as a panel Should step back and be deliberate. We have previously come up with our reports and wonderful recommendations And maybe we want to scrap them. Maybe this is where we want to go But I think we need to vote I think we need to come to an agreement that this is where we need to be or maybe want to do Two or three or four things at the same time But I am opposed to sort of going on this trajectory of identifying Really interesting people on this one subject because I for one While I recognize the importance of trying to make suggestions to the council on training It is not I think a significant priority for us to be landing on as a priority for this panel So I'd like us to be deliberate and where we go to next Can I ask you a question Yeah We I thought had said that we were going to do A multi pronged approach. Is there A problem with that That we were going to take on a number of things at the same time Oh, okay. I I If that's where we've all landed, that's fine. I want to make sure that that um, there's space then If that's where we've previously landed To make sure there's room for these others I know that I part of that subcommittee was trying to come up with all the relevant reports with With recommendations on where where we could Go to next any one of those recommendations even working from memory from our previous rdap report could We had more than one So which ones do you want to focus on which ones do we want to identify the Amazing speakers or whatever do we want to do on subcommittees? I guess Um, that is fine. I I support a multi prong approach I just wonder if the panel if we've landed on which ones Uh, I don't think we have but evan Go ahead. I don't I think you're right Rebecca. I don't think we have Yeah, I mean, I was just gonna say baby, maybe that's the maybe that's the topic of the conversation for our next meeting then because when when we my recollection was At our last meeting we kind of talked about how expansive our enabling legislation is it's a it's a lot of things to try and accomplish for uh, what's basically a volunteer group that meets once a month and so um, you know, since rebecca was gonna Was gonna sort of put some stuff together on what our previous but unfulfilled recommendations were Maybe now that we've had this meeting if rebecca can come back at the next meeting and sort of with with her piece of it Then we can really decide What's realistic for us to focus on right now because if we take on too much That could be you know, not that we want to ignore things we're supposed to do But we I think we do have to be aware of not taking on too much and getting our priorities in in order So maybe maybe that's what we talk about next meeting Which of all of these things we really want to focus on Okay Then I would say let's just hold that back in terms of the speakers, but Wait until we hear from Rebecca and jessica um And their work By then it'll be oh after crossover. Thank god and um We can have a more full conversation at that point I don't think evan to your point about moving And not getting behind what the council's doing I say this with great respect. I don't think that that's going to happen Um, I think we're fine on that front Um So Should we just wait then until after next meeting to go further Down this path that we were sort of proposing. Maybe we won't go there That was vaguely a question, but Hey tunnel vaguely answer to which whichever At the very least maybe we can all review our own the art app report because those recommendations are there I'll work with whomever Jess and and maybe susanna if you're if you're interested still working with us We can pull it together in a more comprehensive fashion If any any of you who are not on that subcommittee are are subsequently interested Just let me know or if you have some reports that you would like us to consider and put into this group And and and that's all you want to be involved in I'd love that so so Um, we'll go from there. But if we just review our own reports, there were a number of suggestions even there Yes Julio So, you know, I put in an offer to suggestion if people were interested in Talking to someone I wouldn't characterize, uh, punicima is an exciting speaker. Although I think she's a good speaker um There have been people working on the issues that we're talking about today Not in the wake of george floyd. Um But in in the wake of say freddy gray back in 2015. So people who have been doing work that's Our depth parallel if not our depth adjacent for seven years and who may have ideas about how to begin to begin to discuss about Looking at the issues that are within the art apps um Their recommendations from their initial report um, I didn't mean to suggest that Uh, ldf would be available only once and um, I think that uh, having having worked with ldf on different, uh Different jurisdictions or are helping jurisdictions connect with them such as dallas, for example They're very involved with dallas They're there for an extended period of time um, and so, um That's fine. I'm not on the our depth erin is the ag representative on the our depth. I'm just here Because I've been following the our depth's work and I am briefly substituted in When dav share had left and and we were transitioning Uh to our to to erin's membership of the panel Um, I haven't heard from rebecca. What if she has any thoughts now about what her priority Is if it's not training oriented because I would I would definitely not want the discussion tonight to crowd out A discussion of that so I don't know if you're able to to articulate that rebecca because I do think that um Having seen this work in other cities Doing one meeting every couple of months is not really The pace usually their subcommittee work as as we've been doing so I just Wanted to give the floor back to rebecca if there were other issues Based on at least her reading or thinking today because I I didn't I don't think I heard that and I want to make sure There was space for that Oh, yeah, thanks julio I know that erin you've been raised here and I can wait to respond to julio. Go ahead. You've been waiting Go ahead and respond rebecca. It just makes more logical sense Thanks, erin. I'll be quick. I think julio. They the quick answer is is I'll defer until we get the the work of that subcommittee all together because my my The process of that was uh, going to be an exercise not just of getting us the handy links to the reports that we already um Some of us are authored edited weighed in on heavily, right? And so dimly in our memory banks, um, not just that but that it was going to be a provide an opportunity to See what's come out since then um As far as recommendations and see what we could add that we hadn't been on our radar. So, you know, it's a little bit premature for me Um, but I will absolutely share but I think next month It's great Thanks erin Um, I had a related question for you rebecca. So that's why I wanted you to be able to respond first Well, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page in that I think if I'm recalling right that last month's meeting we talked about um in the enabling legislation items number 6a and 6b and 6c Um, those are the items that we are Directed by statute to report on and that we all felt like we had Um, we've done data So yeah, we're done with data We are I'm sorry. No done data Data we we've spent we've spent a lot of time on 6c the data provision And that maybe we need to look at 6a and b and that that's what um rebecca and jessica Maybe susana would be kind of thinking about in the context of past reports That was one thing and then the other thing was um the training element for um and specifically with the um criminal justice council and so Aren't we still just in the place where we're trying to figure out what our priorities are And we definitely have this opportunity with a criminal justice council But it's sounding to me like we have more time than we thought we did as of last month We have a lot more information about what their timeline is looking like um, and so I support this idea that rebecca and jessica and susana and whoever else could come back next month and talk about what You know what other priorities we might want to um lean on for our future work So I just wanted to that's a sound like a statement But I just want to it's more of a question to make sure that we're all on the same page and then asterisk Julio We have to do everything in our power to keep julio on this panel. I am no replacement for julio He is not only a criminal Especially police reform expert in vermont, but nationally and if we're going to be working on these issues It would really be beneficial to us to to keep him involved. So You're not please don't try to squirrel out of anything julio Oh boy rebecca My second the uh encouragement that julio you you keep coming to these panels your great asset and um Great resource and it's great to have everyone who's who's here and dropping in either for the first time Or to just keep coming back because just having this this exchange and and if you're new this panel You should know that we really do hope to create a An environment where you feel free to share your thoughts. Um, whether it's through a tons agenda or Through this this these kinds of back and forth. I aren't to your point or question a clarification. It's true. I think that Our approach our subcommittee's approach was to think broadly to interpret the six B Broadly because as a tons that we're not touching data We're not necessarily limited to the dealing with the public complaint process either of a It is reading into six Providing as part of the report recommendations to address systemic implicit bias in these two systems Including whether and how to prohibit racial profiling to us. That's a pretty broad mandate and as evan said I mean, it's it's broadly written throughout if you recall perhaps I don't know if it was csg talking to us or csg talking in another forum csg I think helped suggest this language and deliberately chose broad language And I have heard at least some members of the house judiciary committee and I'm thinking, you know, representatives l alone and Christy that they Sort of love that about Seeing the work that that they're not wanting us to feel restricted. And so I think with that spirit erin our subcommittee is sort of trying to look up from our last report and Not want to miss all the creative creative reform Movements and ideas that have happened past year and a half since we've written that report And it's not limited to training not limited to to complaint process is not limited to data But everything else potentially Part of part of my interest is as the minutes taker also Taking sure it's clear. It's clear what we're what we're doing next and then i'm articulating that accurately, so thank you The only thing i'm just going to jump in hulia just before you just give me one the one thing I want to um I don't want to lose these little what I would think of as gems that have come out. I am so Powerfully swayed by what ching said. I mean, I really believe those inventories are critical So even if that's not the only direction we go in It came up tonight. I think it should happen at some point um I think it's something we shouldn't lose sight of And that's I think i'm talking in some ways to you erin That I just think that that's an important those little gems even if we're not going to pursue this As avidly right now and single-mindedly To the exclusion of other things as we might have been 25 minutes ago, I would just really like to keep those in play I agree and I've noted down in a couple of places that this idea about inventorying And its connection to not just curriculum changes, but um culture shifts That seems to be an important theme that um has come through this tonight's meeting Exactly. Thank you Julio. I'm sorry your turn now You're the chair and I'm just I'm just watching the the panel work. Um, so no apologies necessary I would say that there is Two sides of the coin about timing. It is true that in vermont There is plenty of time at least it appears with the council But I'd also Ask folks to think about beyond vermont for a second. So there are 18,000 police agencies in the country Most of them have been following what's been going on in maniapolis Not only in terms of the conviction of You know the murder trial, but also uh last week the trial and convictions of the officers who failed to intervene I can tell you that when you're talking about rfps for the right people or the experts and and looking at policing There is already a very long line of jurisdictions who are looking for the same people that with who have experience and and and training and um and and maybe a track record of how their training works And so while internally in vermont The internal mechanism has time to think and to meet and deliberate. I would just point out that um proceeding with with you know um Do speed is in vermont's interest because people are I I had conversations earlier this week with heather simons about a training model module or model that they want to that they're interested in and In officer peer intervention out of georgetown law school um able Which they are um At the end of a very very long line Um after officers were convicted in maniapolis of failing to intervene. So Um, there is still enough time But I don't think in terms of looking at people who have a track record and experience Uh and people who work with other communities not I'm not talking about people who just work with police departments. We're talking about community driven develop training. Um The those there's a long line already forming and so I would just counsel Um speed and for for subcommittees and I'm not on any committee because I'm no longer No longer on the art yet, but I would just say I would just Remind you of that that there are people who are both many months out And I know the academy right now wants to get this training and The people out of the georgetown training, which is free by the way have said They're overwhelmed, but yes, you can get in line Julio, let me get very specific then is there a problem if somebody at the At this meeting were to say let us sit on this, um That yes, we need to do this and we need to move on it But let's think about that Towards the end of next meeting, which will be on the 12th of april Does that make a Does that handicap us? Um, you know or is the answer at handicaps us by a month That's right because there are people signing up every day I think that like when I offered to connect folks to the ldf It doesn't have to be the full art app It can be if that's what the art app wants to do But any individual who's working on any of these projects um Probably could schedule something at least a phone call and introduction to talk with You know just for a quick brainstorming With the ldf folks who work and just say have you thought about this or that or to hear your ideas and react to them because they they've been doing this for years and um the good news for everyone is that um There are lots of shillers and there are lots of susanas and there are lots of rebecca's and lots of atons out there around the country and the challenge is that You don't have access to them and there are people who have met all those atons and rebecca's And have gotten some of their ideas and they're they're open to new ideas and they're and that's What they get paid for is so like to meet those people and engage with them And it's a much more efficient way to get an idea about what other um projects right, you know or or um approaches that people who have who have had two years advance a thinking on this have And it doesn't mean that our own original thoughts don't uh contribute to that but To me, it's just like an opportunity that it's like to be able to get um, you know a much quicker start on a lot of thinking um because There are many hundreds of our depth like our depth like groups, whether they're legislated or not whether they're based in state government versus cities and a lot of good people um have Gone through the process and it only uh, I think it only helps the our depth To get a benefit on some of that thinking I offered some links for things of people to read but what what I could also Just make the introduction and then people talk amongst themselves to to people who work on this every single day Because all of us. I mean virtually all of us, uh Maybe that all but many of us We have day jobs, but there are like, you know the person at ldf. That's their full-time job Is like engaging with communities on these same issues and not getting the law enforcement Centered voice but getting the community, you know the community voice in there as a as an equal partner in public safety And public health. So that that's what I'm that's that's what's available to the our depth if they if they want it Why don't we just keep going the way we've been going That the I mean ebb it if you're willing and anybody else who wants to jump on in here Um on this on you know that topic that we were working on um The trainings and stuff that we We pursue trying to have a conversation with some of julio's contexts outside of the state And rebecca and susana and jasica Work on their stuff and we just do another presentation in a month I mean we said last month we were going to do a multi pronged approach And that was the idea of these two subcommittees So I guess there's a part of me thinking. All right fine. So let's just keep going We did some really excellent brainstorming tonight But let's just keep moving with this Because I think julio's point is actually well taken Aaron Thanks. This is a question for the group considering how In demand some of the speakers might be that we would want to invite should Should we be thinking more broadly than inviting? Just our DAP people. I mean if if are there others that we would really want to invite to The table to Hear and ask questions and learn from the speakers I mean how many times can we get these people to talk to our DAP and then oh Can you please come talk to the criminal justice council and then could you talk to so-and-so and So I just I don't have an answer to that question But I I think if you know as we're thinking about inviting national experts to come Help us out. We should think maybe More broadly beyond just this group So as to maximize the effect of of that knowledge As she would point out sure Ching This is a more of a follow-up question and I I'm not entirely sure. So do we have community liaisons that we work with in the state? I probably there are some people on the panel who are already like community liaisons, but I wonder yeah, at least we should invite people who will be working with To represent the communities and because vermouth is in some ways a unique place And uh, so if we have an outstate person to be beneficial for for community organizations or liaisons that we will be working with To have whole conversations with them to maybe do comparison or brainstorm what We can how we can tap into their brain to to provide information for Vermont specific work Yeah Hmm It's a good point Anyone else? Okay, um I guess I would recommend we keep going forward where the way we've been going I'm not entirely comfortable with that because I hate it when I feel like There is a time deadline and I don't know what it is um That's not a very comfortable feeling But It is what is The one thing I do feel certain about is I'm looking forward to hearing what The other subcommittee has to put forward Because I think that'll help us Focus frankly Evan if I said to you, where do we go now? What would you say? I would say I'm not entirely sure I was I was in the middle of typing myself a note that was going to say Think about scheduling a time to talk with etan and julio about What the heck we're going to do between now and our next meeting or is there anything we need to do between now and our next meeting? because I I just I you know, I want to be realistic in I I don't this is a very large group and I don't want a very small number of people tackling these issues that That this group that's supposed to have a lot of voices are supposed to yes way in on you know And so for better or worse due to the breadth of our enabling legislation We do have to set priorities and I don't want to be in the position of Being one of the few people that sets them for the entire group I think we need to I do think rebecca's right that we need to try and have some consensus on it But I want to remain Being helpful to the degree I can and and do my part so I don't know where we go from here I guess Well, I think what I'm going to suggest because I mean your point is well taken One of the things that worked well. I think last month was that people leapt in as they saw fit I mean initially it was like it was rebecca and then And then jessica and susana are now part of it and I mean, I don't think that It's a closed club by any means. It's a question of I mean, I I I don't Think I mean we can't tell people to do something if you want to be part of something I'm going to assume that everybody can just sort of a say I want to be part of this Nobody's a mind reader. So no one's going to know Unless somebody says something And I think we have to just take that as I mean, that's just a logistical fact of having a panel of this size Is that people have to vote themselves onto these things And decide that they're going to work on them Hey, ton for what it's worth. This is rebecca anticipate with our subcommittee will bring a bunch of ideas forward And then we'll see what what people are interested in and maybe they'll result in subcommittees A formal vote or or a consensus building around certain topics and maybe the next move at this moment is um a motion to adjourn as to I I think that I would like to move. Yes. I think that we've got that. I think we have a direction here um, but not a journey yet. I want to um Before we get their new business new business Things you'd like to see on the agenda for next month And that's not a closed thing. I mean, you know, send me a note. It's not like I'm that hard to find anybody, okay then Moving right along here Our next meeting I wrote this. I don't know what happened to me Our next meeting is actually the 12th of april All right. I don't know why I wrote 8 march Don't ask questions um But it is actually the 12th of april six to eight p.m Again, it'll be on teams um and now if someone like Miss turner would like to make a motion to adjourn Eight on before you do that. This is sheila. I'm just wondering if um the difference between new business and open to public comment It might be a little bit different for people who are not used to these meetings. And so if you could invite open comments now Because somebody might think new businesses Different from being able to openly comment on whatever went on today or other stuff that they have going on So and maybe it's still the same silence. But if you could welcome that into the space, I'd appreciate that Uh, does anyone have a uh commentary they'd like to add Please those of you who are guests, uh Please feel free to add on it. I mean chime in Okay hearing none Uh Would someone like to make is that okay sheila? Thank you. Eight on You're welcome Would someone like to make a motion for adjournment? I'll make a motion to adjourn tonight. Okay anyone seconding Rebecca is seconding. I think yes All in favor scream Hi All opposed All abstaining We are adjourned. I will see you all on the 12th of april And I'm sure we'll be talking between now and then Thank you all. This was really productive. We got a lot of good ideas out that probably Were about three Maybe three months ahead of their time, but I feel good about that Um, we're thinking forward That's good So thank you Thanks everyone