 I I'm Courtney Chuba from Samuel French. Thank you so much for joining us for the kickoff of right sweet We're really all in here. We want to say thank you because it's very important subjects to be discussing. Just a few things. First of all Please silence your cell phones, but like tweet. I'm going to be right there So and also Howard's going to be taking Questions from Twitter as well. So later there will be questions that y'all can ask But if you have friends at home that are following along Feel free to have them tweet out you in your hands in addition to the program if you didn't get it There are white papers about this exact subject from Samuel French. So take a look and also you'll notice We're there in your programs. We have three more great events coming up this week There's also a lot of great essays on how around so check them out Thank you Do feel like I'm hosting what's my life? Glad people in the room got the red Our topic tonight is owning your work. I'd like to introduce our panel I'm going to get very very brief Precies of their bios because we could be here for far too long if I read everything beginning immediately to my right the savage wingspace theatrical design In New York his work includes muscles in our toes Sunset baby and fitter than water Labyrinth claps for the women's project in all American at LCT three He's also designed regionally at Oslo To talk while Dallas Peter Center Miller glass equipment got three and long more than that. He took us from a through L He is instructor at the Yale School of Drama and trained at RISD and the Yale School of Drama To his right is Ralph Savage turning with drama is skilled since 1997 and co-executive director and general counsel since 2005 winners during the gill and advising its seven thousand plus members and governing council to Ralph's right is background also with wingspace theatrical design recently in New York stay in the silica Rouse stick playwrights theater feeding in winter at club Is other New York who never work in New York includes the 52nd Street project ours Nova New York Shakespeare Festival Public Theater and Lama and his recent regional designs in Sayama Christina the Magic Theater Yantel in the playhouse and it's a wonderful life at playmakers rap and Last but not least that liquors is an agent at Abrams artist agency where she represents artists who work in theater Offer a television and film before Abrams. She was an agent at Helen Merrill and William Morris agency She is a member of the association of the author's representatives the president of the literary managers and dramaturgs of the Americas and Board chair emeritus of theater breaking through barriers in your company that works with artists with disabilities So welcome to our panel. I'm going to start with with Lee and Burke With seemingly a simple question maybe not which is How did you come to learn that as theater artists you had rights in your work? Was that something that came up? Just listen, yeah At any point in school did anybody come and talk to you about your ownership of your work? Are you represented by agents who have to talk to you about what you're right? Well, in other words that people can't come in and see something you've done say gee that looks terrific And just willy-nilly replicate it on another stage in their own production without compensating It's hard to replicate I mean I Think part of what we talk about and and this idea of ownership is is really tricky because It's hard to own an idea and that's what sort of design is. I mean I feel like I own The drawings that I do the physical stuff the models the drawings, but it's hard to say Okay, so that as an agent who represents designers What would you say I jokingly said let's have a fight during this panel, but I didn't think it was going to happen on the first question And I thought it was going to be Ralph and I Now I have to fight with people I don't know Encourage you to have a stronger sense of what You are worth Dare I say and what your designs are worth and if this has not yet happened to you I suspect it will at some point where You design a lucy third or play at realistic playwrights theater and you're trolling around Facebook or the internet one day And the theater is producing the same play and you look at their Design or their production photos and you say well, that's really funny The door is in the same place the bookcases are in the same place They have that same weird ball of twine in the exact same location on the bookshelf You know the the lights are coming through the exact same location of the window And weirdly, you know, we put that character in orange dress and and their character is in an orange dress And all of a sudden it starts to become very clear that no You cannot copyright an idea or own an idea you can only own and copyright the expression of an idea But where that placement of that door and that window and the color of that dress and how you set decorated that bookshelf Are owned by you and there have absolutely been examples. Some of them very well know of people putting Photos side-by-side and you know the facial hair being identical That is not a fluke You work really hard and a lot of theaters, especially in New York you work for very little money And in truth most artists if a theater contacted them and said we loved your set so much We would like to duplicate it and we would like to pay you for permission to do so But we're tiny and our tickets are only $10 and we don't have a lot of money You would probably work with that theater at a very rational level and say okay Why don't you pay me this and use my design? so I would say Stanford and make people pay because artists can only afford to have careers when artists are being paid for what they create So let's expand We started from design you represent a variety of artists in the theater Artists all you hear I need to get an agent. I want to get an agent Let's say they get an agent And certainly you have the conversation about how you're going to seek work and suggest work, etc. etc but do you Do you have a conversation about their rights when say you're now the agent there Let's say it's a playwright Designer going out to do their first show that you're representing them Beyond making sure they get their travel and housing etc. etc What do you talk about in terms of them understanding what their rights are when they go out to do that work? I think for the initial production. It's usually Helping them understand what can and cannot be changed about their work That if you're a playwright and you show up in rehearsal one day and act to see one has been cut without your permission That cannot happen I have examples I've had directors leave after shows opened and get emails from their cast saying oh the artistic director showed up and Restaged three scenes in act two. I don't know if I've ever actually had like set pieces cut or changed So so it is about encouraging people to advocate for themselves and to understand that that is an actual contractual point their contract any contract I negotiate and especially in writers agreements It's getting longer and longer and longer has a very specific language saying what can't happen I now have language that says you cannot add remove or relocate Intermissions within the play because theaters are taking intermissionless plays and adding intermissions and I was reading reviews saying I Love to this play. It's just a little weird. The top of act two is sort of rocky and strange Do you think like that's because there's no top of that too? You know, so where I think your question actually comes into play is the subsequent productions where the author is not around and This is getting harder and harder sort of easier to please but in some ways harder to address is You know people who cast an old director and he can't retain all the lines So they break the roll across to performers that has happened people who felt the ensemble players didn't have enough to do So they wrote more lines for them That has happened a Play where the playwright said all the women are played by individual actors All the men are played by one actor and in an author's note in the acting edition explained why and then we saw a casting notice Casting all of the men individually You know, we live in the day and age of the internet you will very likely get caught You would be amazed how many aunts and uncles show up at shows written by their nieces and nephews you will get caught And it is about saying to clients You should have been asked and if you're asked you're allowed to give any answer I've approved the editing out of foul language. I've approved a drinking game without the haul being changed to soda But there are also things my clients have said to me, you know, I've written this play for certain racial Roles for actors and before we publish it, especially I've said now. Are you okay if somebody wants to do this? All Caucasian all African-American and sometimes they say it can be anything and sometimes they say no I wrote it with that very specific intent It can then be hard to make sure theaters do it that way And I would love for that to be a conversation at some point during this week But I don't feel schools are educating them to loop back to your question And it absolutely is the role of the agent to make that clear Yeah, and that's the best thing about agents like part of me doesn't want to know like part of me wants to just be a designer and focus on my work and working on new plays and developing ideas and like if somebody copies it they you know at least It says to me that we did something right, you know, and and there's been a number of times especially working on new plays where It's it's it's very hard to draw the line about whose idea it was and it gets baked into the final product and then If it's a hit or it's successful Undoubtedly the next production will take elements of that Because it worked and that's been done with Tennessee Williams That's been done with Arthur Miller. That's been done with a very great play right, you know, and I I think it's easy to get all hot and bothered about it But at the same time It's a testament to good design When when there's a you know a legacy Sometimes work is just inherent in design or directions becomes inherent in the text and For example, if a musical is written in a specifically recti and style and it's directed in a rectangle One would say that that's inherent in the text not something you know, it's not something the director is adding that's something the director is interpreting and So to get back to your question, I agree that I don't think anybody's teaching this on a collegiate level Even the graduate level except for a few writing programs. I know And I think it's often for the very reason you say I don't think the students really want to hear about it But they need to but they need to and I go around the I go around the country and I talk to schools And I talk to teachers Students because they're going to talk to more students than I am and It's amazing the pre-conceptions That they're communicating to the next generation of writers and designers Well, I'd like to back up for a second just because I think there may be many people here and Watching online who know of the dramatist skill, but don't exactly know what the dramatist skill Exists to do and what one must do to become a member of the drama skill obviously it is for writers and composers, but just can you give us the really short precy of What it what it's meant to be sure The kill has been around about a hundred years now It's a trade association of playwrights and musical theater writers and basically it's group of people who've decided to watch each other's acts and To maintain standards for each other so they do our standards and the whole Organization is built on one concept and it's tonight's top That's ownership of the property copyright is what authors And it's it's the reason they're not unionized writers like in Hollywood Right as gilded America is a labor union because they do work for They write in the theater writers don't get paid enough Instead, you know, it's one thing to be Paid like a Playwright and treated like a Playwright, but if you're you know paid like a screenwriter Paid like a screenwriter you better be treated I Think what you're saying is if you're paid by like a screen writer, it's okay to be prepared to get a treated like But if you're paid like a playwright and paid like you know paid like a playwright Paid like a playwright and treated like a screenwriter. It's the worst of all possible Very yeah The point there is that's the emphasis that's the issue we make theater or members to Educators to it's the only thing the writer has the other everybody else in the production has unionized unionized labor The designers are members of the USA directors part into the choreographer members of the STC There's local one. There's 802. There's everybody's a union and the writer So what the writer has instead of collective bargaining instead of health insurance instead of You know collectively bargain terms that increase over time is they have the ownership of the property And so they give that up at their peril because it's it's the only thing they have and so they guard it jealous and So let's let's talk about this idea that that he sort of brought up which is he he feels some sense of pride if his work is Copied or let's use the more current term sample Is there a part of this is a question that's coming from Twitter, you know, is there a degree to which artists work can be Open in the marketplace for others to you or Is it always due to copyright law something that has to be an absolute everything before 1923? You can do what you want to That's the point of the public domain copyright was created as Incentive is as a way for artists to earn a living to create art that eventually becomes public That's why Shakespeare is done. That's why all these things are done But for the life of the writer plus 70 years the writer has a discretion to decide how his place before And designers do I want to open this to everyone. I mean designers. Do you do you just say you're you're you know You like the idea that people like You know one of the first shows I did got remounted and I had taken a photo To create a painted backdrop for it originally and I walked into the theater of the subsequent production that none of the designers were hired for and There it was, you know And I have to say it was really Serial and shocking and it was made me angry, but at the same time After I got over that I felt You know the playwright was still involved. It was the same director from the original, you know Like I said, you know, we must have got got it, right When you saw that did you did you go to anyone and say you're using my work and You haven't asked me or you haven't come Well, but this is this is the gray area is because just because that One element was very very similar There were other things that were very different and the whole it was a different cast. It was a different space It was a different context It was a different production and so For me That's why I said it's impossible to replicate it because there's all these other factors that go into the production I find it really hard To separate to like pull out one element And say that's my ball of twine on that bookshelf, but it's because it's not it's part of it's part of the play Well, I feel like it's better use of my time than sweating a ball of twine I mean one production is done in Florida Other things to think about I've got three other more productions to design And it's more exciting and probably more lucrative to me to just keep designing in the worry about You know some hack this copy Yeah, I mean I could go after him or after his producers, but I've got Well, when you say you you guys have agents yeah, and so you wouldn't you wouldn't feel comfortable having your agent address that We're talking about talking about design, you know in this issue about you can't own you can't own the idea only the expression of the idea um and And and the idea that things are created collaboratively all the time I'm wondering if if bed and Ralph can speak to the issue of what is a director's ownership, right? because a director can have a great input as to What ends up on that stage what the words are what it looks like and so? I'd love to close the loop on this just for two seconds and then we'll switch to directors which is to say Sure, you can sample anything you like including an image used on the backdrop Here's the response to that ask if the director had sent an email saying hey Everything else is going to be different. I'm really sorry. We couldn't get you hired on the job We're going to do all sorts of other stuff with the set But I really really really love that image and I'd like to use it with that be okay with you again Because most artists are pretty accommodating and you probably like this director want to work with them again You probably would have written back and said yeah And if somewhere in the program you can kind of give me some acknowledgement on the staff page of saying you know Image by me that would be really lovely, but of course go ahead and use it and then that awful moment of standing there and going That's mine I'm pissed and having a cycle through that and be like but this is a friend and everything else is different and the cast is different And it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's like What have been solved in a really fast to email exchange where you would have felt acknowledged respected and and How much time would it have taken to write that email nothing how much time did it take you to eat your feelings? Well, you know what like you eat your feelings Before you jump to my other question There's a question that came in from Twitter and I just want to ask you going going back to the ball of twine Would you feel differently if you saw it you just used in something that you suspected there was more money But it's a Also, there's a scale of it, you know when you're talking about a photograph that's the entire backdrop That's one thing, but if you're also talking about your contributions in the original production, which I'm a lighting designer So I feel strongly that at the end of each scene It should have ended with a zero second blackout boom boom boom boom And that is just the way it went and then the director goes off and directs it with the entire different production cast Designs actually in the rounds and it's all different it goes to the lighting side and says, you know It worked really well that all the scenes in the view of a second blackout I mean is that And these gentlemen were paid to have that idea you were paid to have that idea and it gave it to the production And that's what directors do. That's what designers do. They're paid To have ideas and about how to turn a bit more into a live But then it's turned back into a written work that's published for broader usage at the end of every scene is written immediate blackout That's not something they can help that's right And wasn't it didn't seem a bunch of used to print the ground plans like in the back of every script where the doors were Where the furniture was Rob's all of that. So, you know That goes back to your earlier statement about Who owns that now? I mean it's well I think if there are people here from the organization who can speak more intelligently than I can but having sort of Agented through the journey of that because early in my career You got the props list and what color dress everybody wore and then people sort of had that donning awareness of like Oh, let us give you a blueprint to use all of the designers work because there could even be a production photo in addition to the Blueprint and all of that started to come out and people were Theoretically encouraged to go do their own work Looping to the now. Let's go to the director And I'm curious for Ralph to speak to this because I know this is a big issue for the drama skill I have an incredibly simple view on this topic And maybe it's influenced by the fact that the bulk of my work is done with writers But there is a reason why an author's contract says Nobody can change the work without their permission and all such changes shall be owned by them free of any means and Enconferences, I don't care who gives you an idea who gives you a great joke Who gives you a way to structure your show? I don't care if it's the director the producer the lighting designer a Stagehand the person who picks the playbills up off the floor. It is yours and No one should be coming after you with their hand out saying You know you wrote that fight because I told you you should have a fight there or that character tells that joke Because I told you that joke in a bar one night. I mean if I came after writers for money every time they borrowed my name stupid things I'm prone to say Characteristics of what it means to work in an office because Blair it's like I've never worked in an office So I used you as the character I think there's sort of a side to being friends with writers you will show up in their work I want to play writing director discussing a costume design suddenly go He'd be dressed like Howard and apparently they both knew what that meant But so so You're speaking specifically about the directorings and decisions. I guess we should mention this might extend to dramaturgs. There was certainly a famous case over rent where Granted after Jonathan had passed away a dramaturg made claims that they were an author of peace and I too would make the distinction and this happened with a client It was working with a dramaturg and we had the deal all worked out And there was a moment one day sitting at the computer where the dramaturg said to him Oh, she should just say something like this and she kind of kicked his butt off the stool and sat down She started writing scenes and he was perfectly fine with that and that led to kind of the production draft of the script And I can say that was the moment when they finally told me about it But I said well now we need to have a different conversation because sitting in your living room and saying what about this and sitting down and typing Six pages of dialogue are two different relationships, but no if you're the literary manager at the theater Or you've been hired as a production dramaturg on something There again, there's a reason why that language exists in writers contracts, and I'm sorry This is a huge thing for me But everybody comes to writers with their hands out and you know what I'm one of those everybody It really when I watch it pile up and pile up in those slices of the pie get taken away and taken away And I see the checks with all the deductions for everybody and I just think why do you get up in the morning and write? We have to give people reasons to get up and write Or with the exception of the writers in this room, none of us would have jobs We would all be unemployed if people were not writing plays and musicals or devising work or otherwise Creating work that we could negotiate design publish It has to start there. It has to be protected And it's absolutely true you see you know when the writer starts they have a hundred percent of the work and then you know equity workshop and they get 5% and a developmental theater and they get 5% and Director they get 5% then the producer takes 40% and so and then all the agents take their commissions and The lawyers take their cuts and the New York producer takes The institution will not for profit that started in New York takes 10 before the commercial producer takes 40, right? So but at that point you've written when somebody else's play Look the point of the that revenue stream is it's supposed to keep writers Writing for the theater instead of looking for jobs elsewhere So we've had this conversation with a lot of theaters recently and a lot of them have come around to the idea that But they're taking they're sort of taxing the authors that they are getting non-profit status to produce They're sort of defeating the purpose for which they were served And they're also taking money from that what is what is basically? Paperclip money for an institution is grocery money What What rights does a director have in a show if they let's start with They have exactly the rights If you're just talking about Stainless directions We've had this fight there's been lawsuits I was involved in the red case That was a dramatic situation, but it's a similar situation There's been directed directors in Chicago during the year in town And it's it's frustrating because they keep insisting that they have a right that doesn't exist There are some academics who have a legal theory by which they buy you have it but Come walk at this point in time says no, there's no proper interest At least no copy Stainless directions Copywriting what we've been hearing for Since the mid 90s is that like anything created artistic whether it's music or a play or a movie Has under copyright law and so I now feel You are not an artist There's your interpretive artist and you can be an artist an actor is an artist They're not creating anything, but they're performance They don't own their performance You know those are my ideas ideas are not Script is the specific physical expression of that idea and so becomes property And that property is governed by federal law So this notion that because you're an artist you have therefore created something because you've created something You're an artist and deserve to own it is circular And this is a lead to Except a misunderstanding Because he was trying to leave it It wasn't it's not an argument about law. It's an argument about Public mindset, you know, which is What I don't understand Is that I do know that Staging different from stage direction Script but stay gene seems like Especially if you're talking about the staging that Robert Wilson does it seems indistinguishable from Or if you're talking about quite photography, it actually has the word The Choreography is copyrighted because the copyright law specifically identifies it as a copyrighted subject Direction is not There are a list of things that are being copyrighted Choreography is wrong. You can notate choreography. You can perform choreography independent of the show I remember when the musical Red Shoes was done only right But the ballet that was choreographed for that show is still performed And the choreographer has every right to continue to receive license Staging is not copyrighted because it's not fixed in any tangible medium And it is a set of ideas the idea that Wilson has You know, if he has an idea for the way it looks those elements You guys He had the idea for them, but unless he designed those elements himself I'm not aware When when a director says I have an idea for For this play. I want a doll house at this foot of the state He doesn't build the doll he doesn't design These guys do that and they like the dollars and they make it so He's claiming ownership of not just the author's right to say that's a good idea He's also taken their How did he become So let me ask Is there there are some people commenting and I don't think we're I don't think we have the right people necessarily to debate the specific nature of copyright law and whether it's good or bad Because I think I certainly know the position of some of the panels already, but what I'd like to talk about is The dividing line between referencing other works of art Utilizing small portions of it under fair use or Tipping over into Utilizing copyrighted work. We don't have to stick with the specific example, but certainly the play mr. Burns is makes extensive reference to Not just the Simpsons, but a specific episode Now it doesn't enact it It repeats some lines from it, but it Especially in the first act deals a great deal of what's happening How would someone know in design you can see designs that do incorporate images That we made a nice example of red Okay, because I feel like it touches on a bunch of these issues one it's a new play that was done in New York and then all over the country and It's one location and it's a very specific location and a lot of the designs look very very similar and your you have to create paintings done by Rock which Are impossible to recreate But especially in the time given on stage But there was an issue about copyright initially remember how it all played out, but to varying degrees I Know In the production it's I'm told the contract specified that all the paintings had to be burned We're destroyed and video of the burning photographs had to be sent to Have a great So You know It goes back to what we're talking earlier is that there was Some wonderful set of research for you for the bus goes studio Which every set designer and lighting designer found and so then all the sets looked alike To a certain degree based on whether you were in a thrust stage or a prescenium or a big house or a small house But now that we could point fingers at each other and say What's the difference between homage and steel? Yeah, not even homage as I said before there are some elements of play that are inherent in the text the staging comes from the text and anybody reading that text is going to stage it the same way and You have to have rock go studio. It's got to look like an art studio. It's got to have those kind of paintings in it How different can you make it? So that's called scenes are fair general scenes that are not copyrighted because they're they're inherent to that Story that any boy needs girl boy loses girl what gets girl scenes are fair. We can't own that You can own Romeo and Juliet, but you can't own You know generic kind of notions even if they're written down the design so I mean there are designs that are very specific and very unique and they But then back to to my question about say mr. Burns There are certainly other plays that reference earlier layers or other works of fiction Everything is based on some Every artist is drawing on their life to write what they're writing The world is very inspiration everything Some of those things are copyrightable some of them are not some of their people they know and some of them are me but They've chosen that process of choosing what is and what is not in your play Is a fundamental part of a lover? The craft of writing it is part too, but those elements are drawn from another work If the idea is drawn from another work Then it's it's up to us. See there's an inherent tension in the culture between those women property and those who want to use it so I Copyright laws is one of the ways we reconcile the company Reason copyright law works is because it has a safety valve for the public that's called fair use and fair use is an exception to copyright and It says, okay, you're in I infringe, but I had a good reason some of the good reasons include parody parody is a Form of social commentary So for example if you were to play about the sitcom threes company You have fun you have the perfectly all right to make fun of threes company What you can't do is Satire the difference is and there is a difference Parody makes fun of the thing itself Satire uses the thing to make fun for something else or comment on some other way As long as the threes company play is commenting on the characters of these companies ideas Sexual mores of it Then it's current if he uses it to talk about you know Why post social issues? unrelated Then then it's satire and that becomes a factual question For it, but by that time you're already in court So that's not where you want to be so fair use is one of the ways that people that you resolve the tension the owner and the users So that everybody's interested Based on Art grows Organically So you have to respect the rights of ownership if you're using enough of that material That your material couldn't work without it And you're just trading on it like there was a book about the OG Simpson child That was written in the form of cat and a hat And Ted Geisel didn't like that and so doctors sued the author and it was found to be satire Therefore an infringement of copyright because it was using the cat and a hat as a vehicle to tell some other unrelated thing and they don't have a right to the popularity The note variety and the success that take us are created out of cat and a hat. They're just using it without Question from Twitter There's an artist who is not yet represented not yet a member of the guild or United Senior Congress speaking to the group here Um What is the best way for them to assert their rights and to protect their copyright if they do not have They have the same rights with or without representation The copyright office is online and it costs 35 dollars to register your player music. So So it shouldn't be a great hurdle to anyone who wants to do that Minimum there's plenty of information out there. There are books. I mean the internet is a tool That writers now can use it's funny. It's a double-edged sword. It allows greater access to material for infringement But it also allows people to find out about the infringement So and we just had that experience in texas so that uh That right that you have look you have a copyright thing you wrote it down That's when you have the copyright, but you can't defend the copyright Unless or any of your rights unless you register the copyright whatever the copyright is. There's no alternative We've passed over something. Uh, it's come up a couple of times. We were talking You brought up the example when we talked about a play based on the priest company For the distinction between satire versus parody People have asked when it blank Who is in the right regarding data? 3c is that Of work that is permissible or is that a work which Cannot be done without the approval of the copyright That's a case in progress Still in progress that uh One of your playwright clients comes to you has a finished play and uh, perhaps there is some material That uh either reminds you of another piece of work Or directly references another piece of work What do you do? I'm sorry now I do sound like we're in a game What do you do? What do I do? Well, first of all, I Complain that they didn't involve me in the process earlier But fortunately my clients are really well behaved and or I'm a busy body But so I tend to like know about things in in sort of concept phase and then Be involved throughout the process But we certainly have gotten to the point occasionally of even being in rehearsals and they've said oh that little ditty that you Hear at the play that's actually, you know, some obscure Japanese anime TV show from the 60s I neglected to tell you that and I say well You've signed your author agreement and it said that the play was wholly original to you. And so we have now lied and Usually you get on the phone with the theater and you discuss what your options are and your options may be to go scramble and get the rights to The poem or the tv show song or whatever it might be Or it might be to say let's quickly hire some cool young composer lyricist and Have them write something that we can record for less money or at least faster than I'm going to go find some Japanese tv show producer from the 60s and get them to write something, you know In the style up Now if we're just going to talk about the truth of what happens in the real world The truth of what happens in the real world is stuff like that gets used All the time I myself have worked on projects where they have Sampled songs in the sound design or whatever and people have turned a blind eye to it And I've worked on things around a patient. They've gotten letters saying You thought you could use that academy award winning song? We don't think so But by and large I try to know that that's happening I try to be clear whether it's something that's under copyright because Ralph is right Artists are inspired by things writers are inspired by things You see a play and it has a premise and you disagree with it And you spend the next five years writing a play refuting that premise or one of My favorite stories of this in in my own professional life is uh Aaron Posner was seeing a production of the seagull that he thought was truly truly terrible And as he was leaving the story out of the theater at the end of it. He said, you know, that was terrible I'm gonna write a version of the seagull and I'm gonna call it stupid fucking burn And how around just probably now beat me. Um, I apologize polythorough You know happily that's a situation where it was in the public domain and we didn't have to deal with it But sure I don't have to go after the rights to to films all the time And we do spend a certain amount of time educating to say well, you're writing about something You know events that really happened But you're really just using facts that have appeared in 150 articles So we're fine or you're using a journalist book that they spent 10 years researching and accessing That family's archives and reading Unpublished journals and so clearly these are not just facts that are in the public domain And we need to go get the rights to that journalist book Interesting. Now I've been giving favor to people who've been tweeting I should forgive me because I'm watching them. So I've also not been looking over here But are there people here who have questions? I ask you to keep them focused and brief Yes, in the back What am I issuing general was like copyright is that I feel like it's like Like that the idea of copyright was created for like new expression of the movement It was chosen for women like me who created the internet and like sort of like an extension of that like technological And I think like the way artists work now is there's a lot more conversations Okay, so the public domain was made because like after a hundred years something can be big for this But now something that's made two years ago or two years ago like the sentence is you've been put as all of us leaving the internet to do it for all different ones. And I I'm wondering like how can we as writers like Like how can we like challenge the law to like reflect the society with it now? To restate it quickly because the microphone's pointing this way for those at home just as the question is that Copyright law is something that was created many years ago We have a lot of things that exist in the culture that people want to respond to and comment on And is copyright law in its current form? I mean the first amendment was written a long time ago too They're still relevant. I mean You know copyright law is a way of organizing this society this society wants to be disorganized That's a public discussion to have and they have that debate. It's called copy left Um, so there's a debate. There's a serious intellectual conversation that's going on not in congress because they don't have those kind of conversations But in the culture at large about You know, what what is the appropriate duration of copyright? What what should it include what shouldn't it include? You know, I represent copyright owners But there are also copyright users When you make a musical Nine times out of ten you're writing a musical based on some underlying work And now very often it's a movie or something that's still under copyright so When when a movie studio goes to congress and lobbies for 20 more years of copyright That's not necessarily in your interest as playwrights and musical theater writers They are diminishing the public domain By keeping things out of it that used to be In going into it and it was a professor lesson from california who sort of leads this movement Um about well, you know, maybe copyright should be five years and then you can renew it every five years Up to a certain number But you have the responsibility of continuing to use it and if you're not using it then it becomes public domain I mean there's a lot of ways to address this issue and ultimately it's a legislative issue and about Your putting pressure on work congress to to make those kind of changes. Let me take one forward here. Yes I'm writing in a musical that's not based on anything I'm started in 2011 after a year And closer and as he's generating music ideas and musical themes We're going back and forth about the construction of the world the characters that they live in And what has influenced them that might be in literature or Here so now that we're to this point the lyricist stepped in in february and has decided okay. You have a decent book I'll get in bed with you guys So we moved over and she got in bed now We know she owns the lyrics because at this point she's writing lyrics to the story that we formed What was it two years of collaboration with the composer? Does my composer own any of my work or as I've ended it's my book and the music he's been coming up with Even though I say this would be a great place for a valid I don't know that valid. He owns it because he wrote it. Okay. Let me just restate it quickly The question is gentlemen's been working as a book writer with a composer over a period of time To develop a musical a lyricist has joined them. Yes But to what degree in the collaboration because the book writer and the composer in particular Have collaboratively created the shape of the work Does the composer have any ownership of the book writers portion or do they Together ultimately inform any portion of of what the lyricist is writing and have any ownership of Do you have a collaboration agreement? No Then you all own all of it You own the lyrics She owns the book He owns both the book and lyrics. You have what is called a joint non-disclosure agreement. It says we own our own property But you don't know what the property is yet. Yeah So A collaboration agreement is essentially a contract that gets you out of copyright law You know copyright law is going to govern until you have a contract that says otherwise And right now if you are writing without a collaboration agreement It could be deemed a joint work And a joint work is a work where all the authors Own all the material and they split it evenly despite despite whatever contributions you may have made Little or as much as a contribution you may have made It's also you can own each license a non-exclusive right to the work Which makes the value a bit that much less So what if I write the screenplay and the kids will see stuff like that what happened? I don't think we can go deep into the specifics of this. This sounds like something you need specific counsel on But i'll say succinctly it can be whatever the three of you agree to be Just make sure it's in writing. So if your collaborators say to you I don't write movies and I don't write children's books And originally it was your story and your characters. So, you know what you go do that You need a piece of paper that says I can adapt this in any other form and do anything with it that I want And you don't get billing. You don't get money. You don't have any ownership of that You could decide that you're going to give them all of your money and make none of it You just have to have a piece of paper that says that and and they're stupid And the field has a collaboration agreement to give our members that does exactly this So if you remember you can use it Let me let me toss in a question another question that's come from here and then I'll come back to the group here Do we talk briefly about whether playwrights designers Can enter into contracts that are work for hire in which they ultimately Do not end up owning that work. Does that situation exist in the field that's more specific? I've actually seen those contracts and before I knew him I've signed this But you shouldn't and there's I found situations When I have a specific relationship, especially with the choreographer Because the choreography In the dance world work that I've done tends to be different because the choreography is created And it is forever attached to that piece of music and often forever attached To that lighting design and there are light designers and choreographers that are still Traveling the world, mounting Jerome Robbins' Choreography with Tom Skelton's lighting Decades after the fact So I will sign you know, I have Licensed my lighting design to choreographers In pepper two of you I voted it's easy. It's easier to write And because of my relationship with the choreographer that was just I don't wear the size of the feet Was an important thing to do and that's much Somehow comfortable doing that then Doing work for hire Although last my chest exploded You also can do a license for several years that can then be subsequently renewed So that you are being paid each time that renewal happens If it has gone on to become incredibly successful, maybe your rates need to go up So you you can honor that idea that that your lighting and that Piece of choreography may go on to live for decades together Without dail the road saying well, I didn't know it was going to get performed at the Met for $35 of performance Work for hire is a legal concept and it comes out of the copyright law And there's not everything is eligible to be work for hire You're either have to be a full-time employee Not just an independent contractor with an employee Doing work within the scope of your employment or and then then it's work for hire Or you're an independent contractor and you've agreed to do work for hire And you've signed an agreement that says it's work for hire and it fits within certain categories that the copyright law Enumerates and the copyright law does not enumerate plays As work for hire. So we've had this discussion with certain movie studios Who like to come to Broadway and produce shows and think they're going to do it Hollywood basis and we've explained to them that no that that's not the way theater works You were very careful to say plays. Is there a distinction for musicals in any way? No, okay, just curious. Okay, some more questions from out here. Yes What about English translations of works which are written in foreign countries that are under a completely different copyright law? Okay, the question is about English translations of works that are four language works And maybe on your different copyright law It's the same thing if you want to adapt something into English You need to make a deal with whoever the copyright holder is or whoever their representative is that could be the SACD in Paris and that may be an agent that may be the original writer themselves And the terms will be very similar to what you would negotiate if you had written a play your licensing it to someone You would specify what territory what languages is it English language throughout the world? Is it English language in North America in the United States? Do you have the rights for three years if you get it produced for a certain number of performances? Do your rights expand? But in the same way that If a Terence McNally play is being translated into German for the German market It's absolutely the same thing if you're trying to do something for a play here But we should say as a twist on this Translations of foreign works which are in the public domain Each individual translation can be copyrighted by the author of the translation. That's right Every check-off translation that you would consider for a production Unless it was written quite some time ago is all under copyright Paul Schmidt's adaptation is under copyright Yes In sending out a script to a producer or a theater I had a copyright And subsequently six months later or two weeks later. I keep rewriting Do I need to be copyrighted every time I am rewritten in the script? The question is if a script is written and then there are subsequent revisions to the script does it need to be Re-copyrighted my feeling is there's sort of three points in the life of a play where you may want to Register the copyright When your play is done enough that that you or think are complete enough That you feel comfortable sending it out into the world It should have its you know glosses and raincoat on that you have its protection Subsequently if it ever gets produced or you do enough rewrites It may you may create additional copyrightable material A new character a new song a new scene At some point and usually this happens in the production process You usually wait to the production process because that process itself Generally Is going to generate a lot of rewrites That's the nature of the business. So you generally want to copyright, you know the production version And then when it's if it's published That's going to get That final version Should be the copyrighted version. So this is probably three points If you're you don't have to register every new draft of everything you do That's not necessary. If if they could lift the material out And create something new with it Then you probably should register a renewal or a revised copyright, but Most things are editing and switching around a new language not necessarily enough material on the whole to warrant re-registration Another question from out here. Oh gosh, so many Something that I saw in the copyright form Online is really an exclude material from copyright Question is about uh, something on the copyright The copyright form says, uh, you know, what are you registering for copyright? There you may be submitting a screen A musical You only wrote the lyrics So you're going to register the lyrics And you're going to exclude the music in the book from your registration So you won't have a right to register your work Under the copyright This is a key point. There's a line where you ask you if is this a derivative work 6a This means you have the right from the original author To create a new version of that work A movie, you know A musical is derivative work based on the movie The movie is actually derivative work based on the screenplay So when you create a new version of that thing It's a derivative. That's one of the copyrights a copyright owner has the right to license derivative work So when you register your work, it's going to ask you is this a derivative work? Well, if it's based on underlying material You you have to have And you're doing that material. It's like a new version of that song Then you have to say yes, and you have to have the approval of the copyright owner to register Otherwise you're creating a fraudulent document. Is this set design or derivative work of uh, play? Not necessarily It's it's only it's independent and copyrightable, but because conceivably other plays can be performed on that set, right? I guess The derivative work of the play Is another version of the play Uh, your design is you might be able to take parts of your design And license a catalog of an art book of art Design art that book is a derivative work based on the design Um, you would have they can't do that without your permission. We should pay you for that Um, when they do the program booklet in their lobby, there are photographs of your work in the program In the superhero program if you're not getting paid for that You've got a bad agent. That sounds like your jeth fox word in the version You know you've got that you've got um Well, it's comes back to an issue with the directors, which is um Why director's work isn't copyrightable because it is entirely contingent upon The script which they don't don't The evening of stage directions is called, you know wandering in English There's So, um, well, there is an exception to this which is that great group of neo-futurists has done two events Of the collected stage directions of yujinoni And I would argue they're not wandering aimlessly. I very intentionally have them cross stage right They're just wandering without any text Here yes The question is about the rights for creators of devised work by which you mean Company devised work and what the ownership of that is the rights are the same. It's just how you split it up I mean and that should that should be in a contract Otherwise you're all joined up But let's unpack that a little bit because I spend a lot of time usually belatedly advising people about this and you know We sent people out to interview people and now we're creating a show from it And we want you to be the agent for that and I say okay. Did you get all of those people assigned things? Yes, we can use anything they said on stage Great. Do you have permission to publish what they said? Do you know how to find those people? Well, it was people we stopped on the street. So no You know you have the ability to record what they said So it is one of those moments where it's very good to get some advice It's very good to get some sample agreements and there are now Enough companies out there between tectonic and civilians and places like that to get some advice to really say The people you're interviewing you need to address the people who are doing the interviews you need to address If those people are then actors in the workshop But six of the eight of them go on to the production, but two of them get other work How are you addressing that? And I have spent some serious time with a calculator doing that if you did the workshop, but not the production You get this if you did the production, but not the transfer you get this Because ultimately we're trying to behave honorably Again, if you're the production dramaturg on that, but the director turns to you at some point and says Oh, we spent the day improving and you took notes all day. Um, go go home and write some scenes Based on the improvs Who wants that again? The answer is what does the paperwork say? But but certainly every time somebody starts putting words on paper If you don't have some stake in that show, whether you're an actor the dramaturg the director the playwright The producer the house manager you need to stop and say Look, I was hired to be house manager, but I went home last night and I wrote 16 pages of text I'm not just the house manager Tomorrow night at the lark and of course online the howl around tv The discussion will include more about the nature of devised work. So There's your commercial Question for me After this evening I found the interplay between Four of you so interesting that I've decided to produce a work based on not a little playwright and I tell the playwright about unique character dynamics Um, and it's in no way a transcription, but it's the idea that the idea is mom I bring them the story I bring them the character out of law and we invent some people who aren't really part of it We disguise you so completely no one would know Um, do I as the producer for having conceived that idea have any rights to That finished work It depends how Detailed the idea is again the idea is not ownable the idea of doing a play about four people sitting in a room being uh Is not So the producer every producer the reason the producer produces something is because they had an idea They thought their idea might be this is a great play I should produce it or their idea me maybe I need to go out and fire certain rights because I think that would make a great Music when I'll hire this person and that person and they may have input all during the process But that's what being a producer means doesn't certainly make you at all um, but if you wrote Text that specifically describes characters that are not generic that are very specific And and creative narrative is very specific And then you hire a writer to adapt it into the form of a Of a play there's a there's a legitimate uh, fish in there as to who owns what and it could be argued you're a joint author in the weeks Bet through your head back Yeah I'll say publicly I've made some bad choices in this world I knew then what I knew now Producers like to do this a lot They call you and they say I have this idea four people from different walks of life sit on a panel and talk about rights I want to hire your client to write it. I get 20 percent because it's my idea And most of the time they're not growing after major writers because that's why they think they'll get their 20 percent And most writers want the little bit of money that they're going to get paid and it already has a producer So it's going to get produced and so even though I say to them 20 percent seems an awful lot for two sentences No characters no plot no reason for conflict not even particularly interesting characters Why you give me this person 20 percent they invariably take the deal now the thing that I've learned after 17 years of being an agent The worst deals never wind up with shows that get produced There is something about that That it never happens But I have made deals where we've given away big percentages for A concept that was barely more than two sentences And I'll say here and if my clients are watching this they can call me tomorrow I regret it. It was the wrong thing to do I've I've seen first I see all the broadway current facts that come through Because I have to sign them So I look at them and talk to the producers sometimes and I actually have a broadway producer About this is a big show that ran so I'm not going to get into that but The uh, he said it was my idea don't I get something for having conceived this What was your idea your idea was to license a tv show and turn it into a music A tv show that had already been Existing in other films, movies, cartoons, toys That was your idea to turn it into a musical No, that's called producing. That's called producing And I think eventually understood that but I've also had other play producers say no You know, I've been working with this playwright For two years on a story that I conceived originally And I've written characters And I've written an outline before I got this And You know Then there's a discussion between them About their relationship, but nine times out of ten. It's not like that at all. It's as bet the stride It's about producers thinking because they had an idea to do a show They thought they thought should own the show And you know, that's what hollywood's for Now before you all jump in your hands, there is if there's such a thing as emphatic tweeting I have one question And people are retweeting and favoring and liking so I need to ask this and I'm going to read it directly Um anonymous asks If I'm writing theater that will be produced only in not non-profits never commercial What's the relevance of rights? That's the question. Relevance of what? Rights Exactly the same non-profits have to pay royalties non-profits Look the theater in texas that just tried to rewrite Hands-on hard buy Had a license to do it. They were non-profit theater If you don't have the rights to stop them, then they make their own show out of your show That's the relevance of life Most shows are produced commercially so Lin Nottage wrote ruined which has only been produced in not for profits But she shouldn't hold the copyright to her play or make any money off of it It feels to me like somebody doesn't understand the vocabulary they're using So it may be a deeper question that we should be unpacking and if you're out there listening and tweeting Rephrase the question Howard I'm so sorry, but we have a really like rabid question in the front row and I'm worried if we don't answer it Can we can I throw the ball? We need to we should go to some people who haven't had a chance to ask the question yet. I'm sorry I do want to move on. Yes, you've been waiting in the back I have a play where It's set immediately after World War II Very US and a character was recalling when they They heard Edward R. Murrow's dispatch from Buchenwald And it turns very much into the story And I understand that because The original broadcast was Was free and it had been transcribed and submitted to wire services Many women's character It does come on it could be on the various Because But you're asking whether I'll repeat the question but just to clarify are you asking if the actual broadcast itself Okay, so the question is there's a play set post World War II Which would utilize a broadcast by Edward R. Murrow Which at some point was transcribed and was distributed Um, is that available for use or is that something for which rights would need to be acquired? The same as if it was in a newspaper, I mean the The facts that that murrow were reporting on You can talk about but the text of his you can't copyright a speech unless you then publish the speech Um, you know oral it has to be fits in a tangible medium. So murrow said these things out into the Into the microphone with the understanding that it would be transmitted by the broadcaster And ultimately there'd be a recording of it somehow The person who records it Isn't necessarily the author That they they're a scribe essentially Acting at the direction of the author So I would argue that murrow owned that when it got fixed and so Murrow worked for cbs If he was doing if all of what he thought passed on cbs was work for hire It might be owned by cbs not tomorrow's statement, but there is ownership in that case. Yes Why the explicit stage directions that aren't considered essentially That are part of the plot That are it is essentially comic business And if that comic business totally done Is in the play of To what you know Where is that line of where A company producing that play has a responsibility Really The question is if in a comic work, there is specific stage directions, you know, which are very specific which The author has has required Um, can the author require that those stage directions be performed precisely as written? This one also gives me a lot of uh jita Because I I spent a lot of time Especially in sort of the university world wherever but all the directors are taught, you know black out all the stage directions Don't even read them and I think You know, I work with writers who sometimes spend years on plays if you work with bill kane You understand that those stage directions You know if you go through equivocation You go through nine circles and you look for moments where he has crafted One character cradling another character in their arms. Those moments are incredibly specific if there are moments of nudity in nine circles They are Incredibly specific. It's not simply, you know, this person crosses to the drinks cart before themselves suburban I think that if we are seeking to honor author intent stage directions matter Do I agree that directors and designers and actors should be free in the rehearsal room to create and contribute? Of course Here's the bottom line for me and and if it's we're wrapping up. I couldn't bang one drum I was just in Boston for the annual conference of literary managers drum in terms of the americas and I did a panel with Salisa colke from the alliance and rebecca frank who used to work at the guild And it was on like dramaturge in law and I thought three people are going to show Because why do you watch a dramaturge the literary managers care about copyright legal issues and the room was packed And it was a group of people Rapid for information because they are artists advocates and writers advocates who find themselves constantly in situations where they think I might not this might not be right, but I don't know what is right or wrong And I don't know who to turn to and I don't know what to do Except that I'm here to be an advocate for a writer and I feel like the writer's intent is not being honored And so I said this at the beginning of the panel and I would say it again in relation to you I'm assuming you're the writer of the play like you exist I'm looking at you. I suspect you have an email address You may have a publisher you may have a website You may be listed on duly your kanji or the natural new play networks new play exchange If I googled you I could probably find you in about 10 minutes This was the thing we said on the panel is a thing I'll say here Pick up the phone have the director the producer and say Look, I'm used to a lot of contemporary plays don't have a lot of stage directions, which is true Your play has a lot of stage directions Can I talk to you about the role of the stage directions in your play? And you can say look, there's some things that if you didn't do them It would break my heart. There are other things that we did that I think are really funny If you can be funnier than that Godspeed But it gives them an opportunity to have a conversation with you or a conversation with me because by a margin I'm very aware of what my authors and tents are or a conversation with the publisher to say We want to do the right thing. We want to make changes We're a christian university who can't show drinking on stage Our audience has a strong reaction to swear words. There are a lot of swear words in this play Just ask we're here to facilitate the publishers are here to facilitate Attorneys are here to facilitate agents are here to facilitate designers will go out of their way to facilitate and make things work If you're not sure what you're doing is right. There's a really simple step to take ask somebody And they're intense. They're they're a desire to respect your intent Is irrelevant unless you have the authority to enforce your intent And enforcing your intent is what we're talking about tonight. It's about ownership of your economy And protecting it. I think we have to let those be the final words. Um, a few announcements for the congregation I think we should first of all thank our panelists To the Dramatists for being our hosts And it's Samuel French for organizing rights week. Uh, finally, I'm gonna repeat One something Beth just said because I think it's a great way to finish this conversation If you have questions about your rights Ask thank you for being here