 Podcasters round table round 125 is your podcast launch freaking you out Chill man. Just chill out Doesn't matter. We're gonna even talk about that podcast launching like with this welcome to the podcasters marketing show Just like that no actually actually this is the Pre the Super Bowl round table pre-show because we are streaming on a rare Weekend it's Saturday night. We're going crazy here. The Super Bowl is tomorrow. Obviously. We have nothing to do with the Super Bowl but Happy sports ball everyone Let's meet these sporting round table co-host Dave Jackson welcome back Yeah, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting comm very cool and Not new to the round table welcome back Emily Hi, Emily pro cap. I'm from the story behind podcast comm and if you were at podcasters round table comm slash live or YouTube comm slash podcasters round table you get to see Emily's very Cool little set. She's got I mean there's a recording sign. There's there's like sparkly lights These are all covering the moving blankets because the moving blankets are really ugly, but they're great for podcasters I have one right here off camera that no one can see Yes, you're right. They are not pretty but they work very well So anyways, that's a good reason to go over and check out the video Definitely subscribe I think it was only like two rounds ago where I asked people to subscribe and we're almost that was for to get hit 600 And we're almost in 700. I think so Good job round table community. We're going towards that 1000. We don't get anything. We get there. There should be a 1000 plaque The 1000 plaque it's like granite all right, I said a platinum or whatever they give you and New rounds abler, I think first time ginger. Yeah, yeah Thank you for having me. My name is ginger wise men I am the producer and co-host of the Outlander podcast as well as the all souls podcast to Fan podcasts that follow both book series and their television adaptations Very cool and lots of success with that Yeah, it's been I was telling someone someone who I didn't know knew that I had a show asked me kind of cornered me yesterday And asked me so I hear you have a podcast I was like, how do you hear you know from whom because at certain places? I'm not really advertising it, but um In retelling that story of how it started in and stuff. We've done. Yeah, it's kind of crazy That this journey over the last five and a half years. We've seen some like fairly cool stories from fan Podcasts like I feel like I always have kind of said that that is the fastest way to sort of start and get Potentially a good-sized audience because they're built in right you got friends like hardcore fans of a show And they're gonna give them more content around that show and exactly the beauty of a fan podcast is it's often Better than any official podcast because on the official podcast a lot of times They can't talk about all the stuff that a fan podcast can talk about right? Yeah, and and even if they have very strong opinions about certain things they May not share those because the whole point is because they are associated with production They I want to say they have to tell party line, but absolutely. It's definitely much more sensitive as far as Yeah, they they're being paid There they have to go back to work, you know, I mean Yeah, it's so cool because in a space where you feel like oh the major You know the the major studios or something they have an advantage. They have all the actors access to them But it does feel like the independent producer the fan actually has in this case more leverage because I feel like they just have more Freedom to discuss the things that fans actually want to talk about I would agree with that and And even if they're just starting out like they they're not podcasters and they're starting out in the space But they are fans let alone very knowledgeable fans of a certain Show or book series or whatever it is Even if you're coming to that space, whether you're the first or the eighth podcast The cool thing is even with a potentially built-in audience Once you begin to engage and once you enter that space as a as I kind of say a slightly Slightly higher profile fan because you are putting yourself out there That community for the most part like like the Red Sea parts like meaning they welcome you they open you you you have such possibility for engagement In a well-established fandom Yeah, very cool. And so well congrats to us because we've already We're on a perfect round table trajectory here, which I'm very proud of in fact, I may have or we may be banned From YouTube at this point because apparently I said the super was a bowl and of course Sports ball maybe trade mark violation and we know the bots are out to get us. So bring it on shut us down We'll just go to the we'll just stay in the RSS feed where we're independent do what we want No, you do not want to piss off podcasters Do not piss off the man with a microphone We have both today we're very balanced today right Right down gender lines. I like it split. So we Maybe we could like pair off and have a good debate on something. I don't know All right, let's get into well the title of this was is your podcast launch freaking you out because a lot of people when it comes to Their launch so when you start a podcast You start thinking about oh well this thing's about ready to go You know, hopefully you've created a good show, right? It's you've got content that you think is gonna be good And you're ready to talk about it ad nauseam Hopefully not all in one episode and you're trying to figure out well one I put this on Apple podcast or wherever else Google Spotify How do I launch like how do I get out to the most people? I gotta have reviews. It has to do really well so you start freaking out about it and There was an article and it was written by Matthew McLean, which I think I know a different one anyways He may be he probably I don't think he's been on the round table But he did an article at the podcast host comm which is done by round table or Colin Gray friend of the show there and It was a cool article that says does your podcast launch even matter so very clickbaity title It's perfect, right like that makes you go. Hmm. What is you know call something out? What does that mean and? So just a quote here from a section of the article This is when you'll want to read this one and the links will be in the show notes at podcast round table comm Slash 125 because there's a lot there But I like this part where he talks about the areas of launching We see a lot of focus on our getting into podcast charts and getting as many reviews as possible and People are saying stuff like I need to get this podcast launch Absolutely perfect is a commonly heard phrase But what's the thing behind that right so a podcast launch? Isn't like the launch of a film or the latest iPhone or a game console Those things need to come out flying out of the gate with high sales and amazing feedback Your podcast does not which I thought was very important because I mean and granted people starting a new podcast They don't know you don't know you think oh, I do need to if I'm gonna be successful I need to be a new and noteworthy and whatever that means. I mean we could talk about that It doesn't mean anything. You don't have to worry about it, but these are the things you might have heard When you've been trolling around trying to figure out how to do podcasting and it just feels that way You feel like oh if my book doesn't reach number one on Amazon It's not gonna do sales and then they're not going to ask me for another book deal But in podcasting there's no one really to shut you down and you have sort of infinite amount of time to grow now of course there are use cases where it's like you might be doing it for a business or a company and You need to show immediate results and maybe there are some Different considerations there and they go back they he goes into this in the article But I'm curious with you know with the people here the roundtablers Did you do anything special for a launch and you think back to your first podcast and you thought I'm I need to get this out to the world, right So two laughs thing Emily and ginger both laughing so ginger since you're the first time round there Well, tell us well, I mean, okay, it seems like in your case Yeah, your launch is kind of important because you're sort of following a show So don't you need to be found like as quick as possible? it's very The story answer is We I don't know if anyone ever put the word launch and podcast together when in 2013 when we started I I had never heard about it and I've been a fan of podcast since 2008 So as now a 10-year listener, I get the feeling it's kind of a more recent need So what was your concern when you was it just getting just getting it published period? I think so it was I knew I had from the previous Professional incarnation I knew I had the skills that I needed to edit audio like that's all I knew and everything else We'd be able to find out we found the host made a quickie website Just the minimal things and our thought was we'll be happy if our parents listen, you know So we we didn't have and also we realized rather quickly within two episodes that the show we were there to talk about It had just been announced that summer. It was going to take us our 10 to 12 months for it to premiere So when we're a year early, we're like, well, let's twiddle our thumbs Thankfully there's a book series so we started covering the book series, but um, yeah We had absolutely there was no perceived. There was no need perceived or otherwise of anything Around the word launch. Were you focused on? Apple and reviews and rankings or anything like that? No, I mean we I literally I to me a success was let's record Let me edit let's get it up and I think seeing it in Apple at the time iTunes Apple podcasts To me that was success because that was all I knew is I wanted to see it there for sure. How about you Emily? Uh for for both shows my first show and this one I did kind of quiet launch with both of them because um, I Get nervous about putting myself out there and I was even nervous today recording episode like 140 of the story behind I'm still nervous about putting myself out there into the world and Even though Dave can tell me over and over and over again Putting your show on Apple podcast is like putting your name in a phone book. It scares me that my name is in a phone book Kind of a private person so the fact that I'm doing a podcast and that I want listeners as well I still kind of need that privacy so my launch was kind of quiet and it was funny with the story behind One of my listeners from my first podcast was the one who found it He saw that I had put it up early and he started showing the link off on Twitter like Emily's new show is out. You guys So at work we had one show that we relaunch which essentially it had been like seven years it had been like on the hiatus for seven years and we relaunched it and I felt a little bit pressure to Launch it and get it out and grow it to at least what it had been but I I set goals Like I had to tell my organization. Hey within six months we're gonna be at a thousand downloads per episode whatever it was right and things that sometimes an organization says we need to see measurable results and So I was setting goals that I knew I had already assessed how many people were still sort of Keeping acted like so we're attached to the feed. I I didn't set a goal that I knew I couldn't hit Right. All right, so it was a little higher and I knew hey I can grow a podcast by a few hundred downloads per You know on average, so I did set a goal and I paid attention But in terms I would say we went to all the normal places like we have a Facebook page That is you know has a ton of people on it So I knew there were places that I could go where the audience was so really my only focus was Not about like am I showing up in the charts and Apple? Although in that case when you are dealing with an organization that sort of hands off It does not hurt to take a picture and show. Hey, we are we are number six, right in our niche means nothing but it is sort of that social proof to people who are not necessarily embedded in the space but for me it was about You know getting people back to the show they had been listening to trying to reconnect with those people and then just Leveraging the platforms we already had so my launch was really focused on just using Resources to get in front of them. It wasn't it wasn't it wasn't any more worried than that Dave when you're you know When you're helping people launch shows, well, you know, what's that discussion? What do you guys talk about people people must come to you and say Man, we got to make this launch has to be big, right? It's got to be big It's got to be and I always say to them Are you married in many in many cases? They are I'm like great. Did you have a big wedding and they go? Yes, I did. Okay, so I said, do you see we're having a big wedding Does not always mean an easy marriage. It still takes a lot of work Like that's where the work really starts is once the wedding is over even though You had all your friends and everybody came in with I'm like the real marriage starts when you get home and it's the same thing with a launch You can get everybody and their brother to come help you launch but the real Start the work like dig out the shovels and let's go to work is when the launch is over And I don't really think in the same way That there are people that get married at the courthouse that have really happy marriages and there are people that have $10,000 weddings and they get divorced in six weeks. So I don't think the launch has a lot to do with it I think now with that asterix don't blow it off do everything you can to Get your friends and your family and the website and the eat do everything you can What just breaks my heart is when somebody goes? Yeah, I did I mean I did the whole thing But I don't we didn't get into new and noteworthy. So and they'll come to me that like so do I Do I relaunch it under a different name? Should I change the name is the name wrong? Well, what's your show about? It's about Chocolate what's it called the name of the show is chocolate and I'm like, oh I think that's a pretty good name. If you know, it's it's like it's not the name It's not this it's just a matter of oh and then they'll go why I only had 200 downloads and I'm like, okay, that's 10 classrooms. It's 10 classrooms of people have tuned in to you to listen. So It's kind of interesting. I'm doing it. I'm doing a thing right now where I uh Am I back? Yeah, we haven't I'm back. You're back. Okay? I'm doing a thing right now probably at the end of February. I'm doing a secret podcast right now I'm purposely not launching it to see how much traffic do you get? Just by being in the directories and the the current answer is right now not much So it's so being in apple and Stitcher and all the other ones isn't really again going to get you a lot of stuff It's it's getting into your community getting all your friends and family To to point to it. I think it's key to the that Um You know like you said and the article mentions this like don't Don't just brush it off like there are things to consider right like I said We had a a current audience and if you have like an email list I mean there's all like best practice stuff you want to do like make sure you tell the people Who would be interested and that you're connected to that you have a podcast certainly make your website Friendly to that podcast. I still go to websites and and people who people who sign up for the show And then I go to website and I was like you you have a podcast, right? I mean the whole point is you to be on this show is like you're a podcaster and it's there But it's not there like I can't find it and I Kind of know how to look for those things So, you know, make sure when you launch people actually can find your show Put your best foot forward like make your best effort to be discoverable But don't freak out When the floodgates, you know don't open and you have massive subscribes in fact, you know It's those subscriptions that will move you up the charts But charts but we've talked about it several times On this show first of all, it doesn't take a ton of subscriptions to move you up a chart But being up there is not going to do much for your show and like Dave says, you know in the beginning You know, you could go out with a bang, but it is we're such a long It's such a long game like it doesn't matter if you start with 100 500 At some point that that initial thing is going to stop And in fact a lot of those people might peel off and you're going to have to build them back up So the listeners you get over time or more of like the real listeners are going to be around But also focus on that even if it's a small group try to focus on those early listeners Those are some of your your most hardcore. They're going to be your longest time fans. They're going to be big Big like advocates for your advocates. Yeah for your podcast They're going to go out and tell other people and that is exactly what's going to grow your show It's funny because uh, Stephanie. Oh wait, is it Stephanie? Yes, Stephanie who's in china right now in the morning. She said that her marriage was so much easier than But yeah, it's well, I did a um a thing recently Where I have people list what their favorite podcasts are and I went to the shows that like if ray said, hey I really like the story behind why would go to emily's site and say hey ray listed you as his favorite Congratulations. I did the four minute mark or whatever and I was amazed at the bigger the show The harder it was to contact people to the point of being really like have fun getting a hold of anybody at gimlet It was like forget about it. It's like a walled garden And so to me when we are quote little we're smaller. We're just launching That's where like ray said those people that say hey, I really like the show. I'm so glad I found it Definitely email that person say what would you like to hear on the show? I'm so glad you like it because that's your kindling If you get those people going like and I mean we all know that you know that I know that you know that we're just people But we're also the host and when the host emailed she was like, oh my gosh ray email ray or take a email And then we're all spastic and happy and we tell people that the ray or take a emailed me I had that reaction when I was emailing podcast hosts in early days and they'd got back I mean the point is People don't really know who's on the other side of that and you are the host like you're Someone that someone has chosen to tune into on a regular basis and when people respond It's awesome. It's funny because I was gonna I don't think I tweeted it out But just the other day I was thinking what I really love about As my youtube channel grows and gets bigger Is that the reaction when I when I answer a comment gets more they're more the person is more surprised every time So the bigger you are people it's sad that people are surprised when you respond to them But it's like low hanging fruit man Like not only do I want to answer the question but when you do people are like I didn't even expect you to answer people just put questions into the ether not expecting you to respond So, you know make sure you're paying attention to like every piece of feedback because one thing podcasters will definitely tell you It's actually hard to get feedback um, so definitely pay attention to that but i'm curious so Because we know that the launch is not necessarily the thing That's really going to determine the success or the growth of your podcast really you can get a like a little Little nice start to it, but it has nothing to do with the overall growth of your podcast I'm curious. Where do you guys see the most? Growth coming from in your podcast so ginger If I don't even know if that's something, you know, we don't necessarily track that but just yeah just as a sort of Anodotally like where do you see the most growth coming from? well, I can I can describe a pattern we've noticed it's we've now covered four seasons of outlander And dan read alongs for the first four books. We're about to start our fifth um, and the patterns we've noticed like Without fail every single time is that we I don't know if it's the subscriptions themselves it very well, maybe But the listens For it takes a week or two to get into this to the season like once we start covering the actual tv show by episode two of that new season um It really cranks up and our weekly are within our either 24 or 48 or one week out download numbers Are huge In comparison to maybe our One week two day one week excuse me 24 hour 48 hour one week Download numbers out of say an average episode when the tv show is not on the air So I would say because we do cover the tv show that definitely brings in a ton more interest Yeah, Dave What do you see correlating to any kind of growth like that like I mean that's a very specific case like you've got something going So people are searching people are actively watching. I do the same thing with with a westworld Which is an interesting thing with outlander. Can you binge it? or is it? Oh When the season is so you have to so that's good for you because It is definitely see spikes. It's interesting. I'm glad you said that because our second show Which is the also's podcast follows the also's trilogy which season one was just Premiered in the u.s. And it was dropped all at once And so the difference in how we attack that Is worlds apart because every no one's waiting to watch everyone's like give me all the episodes And they're waiting for us. Where's your next episode? Where's your next episode? I'm like, well, you know, we're human we do what we can and we're getting them out But it's completely different so you Have you have to have you do you have to think about dropping like the whole season's reviews? Like at one time In a perfect well You know that it's a it's an option. I think Because unfortunately outlander was literally finishing its season when all souls drop when a discovery which is dropped We didn't have that option. I mean we did get screeners So we could have done a little earlier, but there was so much going on and we've weekly show that The turnaround is so short so um Ideally Maybe I can see if a show is bingeable. Maybe to drop all at once if you can but um A lot of people who do listen to our second podcast are fans of our first So they kind of know number one. They know our past Pattern of productivity and um, they also know that we have the two shows. So it's it's kind of a twist It's a twisted thing. It's a very specific Um Set of circumstances right at this moment, but it's very interesting that the second show we cover is bingeable Yeah, and I think that with podcasting when you're talking about something that's fairly niche like On this show we try to apply things to all podcasters, but there are definitely like These things that are specific to different types of shows and you're kind of seeing that with a a fan podcast I mean Emily you you have multiple shows, right? I have a few shows. I do the story behind which is a Extraordinary history of everyday objects and I have hate to wait which is following me and john bukenis on our weight loss journeys Right. So what I'm thinking related to this topic about launching Everyone here has more than one show Did the second show was there any different consideration when launching a second podcast? Did you use your first podcast? Maybe they don't tie in at all Like I don't know when you launched the second one because as ginger sort of saying A lot of fans of their other show are fans of the first show. So you're going to have some carry over So i'm curious how that factors into any kind of announcement or launch of a new podcast a second podcast or third podcast Yeah, um Well because I had a show similar to the story behind before the story behind I was able to Tack on a show at the end of that feed that said emily is starting her own show Here's a preview of it. Now the story behind is very short So the preview wasn't like what some of the bigger companies do where they just throw an entire 40 minute episode into the feed This was an eight minute show and it was just to give a preview if you like it Go find the story behind on your podcatcher of choice and go subscribe Um, so that was nice. I had some crossover there between history and weight loss There's not a lot of crossover, but there's still some certainly you have you have an audience that's open to anyone So everyone you know has maybe I mean that's Those are like personal goals of people right so like that can apply to anyone in the audience really so And i'm wondering did you do you know if that was effective at all or just you kind of put it out there And you don't I think so and also john has a following of his own too and a weird so we brought people in Um with that though, we're not as big marketing It's it was more a show for us and that's how we started with it So when people find it out of nowhere and we have a question In our facebook group when people want to join us How did you hear about this facebook group and it's always because of the podcast and i'll message john and be like Do you know this person? Oh my gosh. This is the this is a stranger to us We don't know who this is or where they came from and it's the thing is like and we love it The craziest thing about this show is that at the end the best one of the best parts about being on this show is that we hang out After the recording with each other for like a good half hour and just talk right now I wish we could record those because that's where some of the best conversations So sorry everyone at some point we have to turn it off But it's amazing to me That at the end there will be people who join us and be like, man This is to check it off the list like You know, I couldn't wait to be dave and finally be on this show and i'm like, why have you not? Why do we not know who you are? You've just been out there huge fan and you don't know who you are So, uh, there probably needs to be some more effort to like Really dig in to like find the audience that can be a hard thing, right? Some people the silent majority is typically what's out there, right? You might hear the squeaky wheel who says Ray you talk too much and let other people talk and like it's my show whatever, but you don't hear the rest of everyone else So it um, it's interesting. It's interesting You want to definitely get in touch as much as you can with that other audience because again There's just people who love the stuff and that's that's kind of my point like where do you see the most growth in this article? um, they they asked what they said when They asked the question. I guess they did like a little poll Uh, you want to find a new podcast to listen to what do you do first? Only six percent of respondents took to the podcast charts to find their next show to binge And it said in fact the three areas that relied on tech to provide podcast recommendations were the three least popular ones Google search made up 12 percent of overall response while searching podcast listening apps directories was a lowly 16 percent Add these all together and they're still way short of the most popular way of discovering podcasts 43 percent of listeners would take to social media or online communities to ask other listeners recommendations And again, we see where word of mouth is still like the biggest thing whether that's another podcast mentioning you Um, you know, Dave saying it on his show that the round table exists I do that too and the email sign up list for this show Podcasts round table comm slash guess if you want to be on it says how did you find it's not a required question but almost everyone answers it and You get incredible insights because most people will say, you know school of podcasting YouTube youtube is an interesting way that podcasts have been found for me, but um People will tell you and most often it's they just they heard it from somewhere else It's not that they found you almost no. I don't know if anyone's ever responded Like you were featured podcast in the in the app or I found you in the charts or something like no one ever answers that Yeah, you were the first result in google when I was first looking up how to podcast was podcasters round table And I remember saying that and Daniel j. Lewis getting really bad Like they were first And you know what's funny about that too is I never know how to take those because oftentimes It's like specific to you, right? You know, it's not like we were first Overall, we were we were first to you and like your searches. So I always you're like, yes And you're like, nah, it just happens that like Emily had happened to like check out me before she googled round table Something weird like that, right? So Daniel, it's okay, man. You're probably still way first But that's that's why you should do things with quote your your competition because I have a fair amount of people That say like I'll say how did you find me like? Oh, I heard you on the round table and then I decided to cut you seem to know what you're talking about So I came over to to check you out Awesome. All right. Well Sweet, we're halfway through you hit one article and And like a rat hole we went down. So we are we are dialing in this round table. We're on track Now we need to pick out another story. Um, I will not pick out. That was one that I had Ginger It's funny because we've had crossover Dave mentioned gimlet and there's news there Uh, I I don't want to talk about it too much. We might mention it about the Spotify Potential purchase of gimlet and then we have Well, we just mentioned that tech is often not the way people Are finding podcasts just listen app to match listeners to podcast. So which one do you want to talk about ginger? Oh gosh, um, put you on the spot. Which one do you which one did you like more? I you know when I was going to look for things I I wasn't looking for things Like news announcements like the spotify thing I was looking for Not issues, but you know parts of the industry or develop latest developments But not anything that was this Yeah, I don't enjoy news that much because it often doesn't fly for longer than a week Exactly. So I was going to pull out the nugget. So we can talk about anything and then we can figure out how it applies to Podcasters. Okay. So the just listen app was um in the article it was likened to Like a dating app Yeah, like swipe left to listen to this exactly and I thought it was an interesting idea But then as I was going through and reading it I What it explained to bite if I remember correctly is um The the person who had who had used it was said that whereas the first Guests or the first show that was presented to them um had a pretty it had a high production value um and quality it was um Pretty enjoyable, but it seemed um it was very highly produced and it seemed Something that was general or generic enough to to be able to Apply to or be liked by a somewhat broad audience But then the next time that person went in Or listened to another episode of that same suggested podcast It what it was it was a miss and I thought it's it's interesting, you know, what What kind of algorithms are are is this app or are these would these types of app use? Because if they if they use something quite general out of the gate, how does that really truly help? You know because that to me that wouldn't be getting the best data You'd almost want to be slightly controversial out of the gate or you know choose something um Very definitive that would not maybe apply to everyone So you can start getting more niche for that person and have the app thus really bring you added value To me, it's this one of those things where like I feel like Dave we've seen a lot of tech That tries to help with discovery, but it's like who's using the tech like why would you go To an app to find a pot. I mean it it's just hard Like it's going to be hard for an app to bubble up to the surface where enough people are using this thing and discovering mass amounts of podcasts plus podcasts are not They're not sample sample a bull It is very hard. It's not like, you know, see a person. Nope. Nope. Nope. Yep, right like or or even You know instagram just I see a picture and I know whether I want to go further But a podcast like which section of the podcast are you going to give me the first 45 seconds? We're like, welcome to episode 125 with the podcasters round table today. We're talking to Dave Emily and like shut up What's the content here? Right? I hate intros by the way Dave I mean, what do you think an app? Yeah, it's one of those things that When I hear the discovery Thing I think it was Elsie on the feed Was saying that we've had discovery problems in every like books are hard to discover And it's hard to find a good tv show and it's hard and usually you just it's the same thing people are like, oh Like I just watched um you as in you on netflix. It's really creepy and really good And how did I find out about it? Because a friend of mine and said, oh, you're on netflix I'm again, I'm out of things to binge. Oh, you have to watch this show I watched the first episode got sucked in and that was it so That which is kind of funny because netflix an app used to be very good At saying oh, well you watch this show you should watch this and now there's so much on netflix of which apparently I think I could get my own comedy special at this point it's like That and I don't know about you but the album art I can't tell like when they put things in front of me Like what it is unless it's I don't know it just I get confused now when I go into netflix and I don't trust the recommendations anymore because They're just not as good that the the overall content isn't as good And see I'm glad that you said that you is creepy because I don't like creepy or scary things But the picture keeps coming up and I'm just like, well, what is this? But I don't want to click on it because I don't want creepy but so you told me and now I'm like, oh, nope Okay Yes, like if John Mayer was a secret Murderer kind of thing Nope You know, it's funny because you said books like every medium like movies Like how do you how do you find what movie to watch some people might use like rotten tomatoes? And that's just like a service it might go there Oftentimes a movie is still a weird one because there's not that many out at any given time for new stuff That's what's being promoted. It's not like We all hear about the newest podcast. In fact, there's probably too many podcasts coming out all the time um, but with books, you know, I subscribe to like a good reads newsletter And that's just a newsletter. I mean, I don't know that I've really seen a A newsletter for podcasts, uh, that sort of says, hey, these these have launched this weekend Actually, I might have I have that don't Dave you probably have a domain we can use for that, right? I think we should start that newsletter seriously Well, the other the other thing I was watching tim schmoyer who's a youtuber and he brought up a really good point He said when you turn on the tv It's on something will start automatically when you turn on the radio Something comes out when you fire up a podcast app nothing starts automatically And so this is where your title is really come into play so that people go Ooh, how to make a million dollars in 30 seconds click or whatever it is or You know some sort of title that's going to catch people's eye and make them want to click and I I saw I see this probably about once a month where Let's say I launched the Dave Jackson show and the first episode is called the Dave Jackson show And the second episode is called the Dave Jackson show not even like episode one episode two They just keep using it over and over and over and I'm like How are you going to share that you need to go listen to the Dave Jackson show great? Which episode? It's like who's on first? It's like no, it's the one called the Dave Jackson show I know but which one so your titles are I I've been banging this gong for a while your titles are really really important and Um don't overlook those Back to re I was I was doing the uh wants to show uh uncomfortable silence thing to see if someone would just sort of jump in I heard a Emily was going to say something but she and she's like no, I'm not going to say anything all right, well Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that I would it's so weird because The people who are going to take to an app the app would have to be super popular and I'm not sure Why it would get that way for enough people to be using it a for the app to survive and be for it to really produce Results that you can say oh man if you can get your featured in this if you get listed in this app people are going to find your podcast Well, the other one they mentioned in there was scout.com which you can actually pick Genres that you like which makes much more sense than just hey You could listen to anything that's that's terrifying to me if I turned on the tv And knowing that like any channel could be playing and I have kids and I'm like What I don't know what this is. Okay scout. Yeah Uh non explicit great. That's what I want. I want to be able to pick knowledge trivia history Don't give me true crime. No, no too scary. Uh, but But yeah, the other one that they mentioned in there scout.com. I don't know. We'll we'll see well This is what pandora is in theory going to try to do right? Yeah, I'm gonna use the system that pandora is always used which is You know just just put in front of you via their amazing algorithm to know what you want to hear and I will say They are inside my head. They oftentimes know what I want to hear They're gonna try to do this for podcasts But again, I think there's something unique to podcast and that's they're just not easy to sample that you can't just know in the first few seconds Do I want to listen to show? Yeah, you might know immediately You know if a host is like hey welcome. You're like no, you know, but for most podcasts You're like, what is this about? You know, again, we've talked about this here and I think Maybe it was paul colligan had some good ideas about how this Could work really well in that, you know, you can select your genre or your interest Like it'll know certain things and hopefully introduce you to stuff that you might be interested in um And are they filtering themselves? Like are they making any kind of Judgments on what is good versus what is not? I don't know The the one thing that I like about netflix is you do have the ability to go in and take something out of your history Because netflix has a really netflix, um spotify Spotify I love every week they have like here's your weekly Based on what you've listened to Songs that we think you're gonna like well, I haven't listened to this for a while And in december I went through and made a playlist of all these old christmas songs So I go to my playlist in spotify is like here's the next song from andy williams and i'm like what? You know, i'm like and I don't know that there's a way I can go into my history in spotify and go Okay, yeah, that was just in december. I don't need andy williams or harry bellafonte or doors day Like can we go back to the creed and you know, ted nugent and whatever disturbed Whatever I want to listen to it's very bizarre. So there are times when the the app picking for you Uh is not good. That's like on netflix when the one time you're like, wait, what was that madonna movie? Oh desperately seeking susan and then like for the next week. They're like, here's another banata movie And you're like, no I was just doing research Yeah before before I when I was only on free pandora for like years It was super. I was like don't let anyone else log on to your pandora because if you thumbs up and thumbs down wrong You're gonna mess up my channel bad And now that I pay for it. It's like I don't care. Just skip. I you know, I'm like, oh I forget the thumbs down like and it doesn't matter anymore Like there's something cool about the free version where it's like this channel is very curated It took me years to get the right things. So I will be interested to see their approach and if it even works, but I think You know, we're gonna talk about this forever about podcast discovery and Do we need help? What was nice was clamor when it was in its infancy was actually kind of a nice way to find New podcasts because what worked about it. Yeah Well, because they could pick exactly which clip they wanted people to listen to you picked them. It was a pain Because the producer had to do it, but this is marketing, right? This is marketing your show. So if you took the time to put the clip in there Dave you had a clamor podcast, didn't you Dave? I did like the clamor top 20 clamor cast What was it called the clamor cast that was it clamor on Dave? Yes It was uh, it was interesting I didn't like that show because I had no control over the content The guys would actually run a thing and say here's the top 20 You know things that are most clamored and It was like wow that was somebody who must have had a robot going because that was a really stupid clip So I was not sad to see that one go away All right, we've talked about like podcasts on music platforms and fented out a little bit. We will approach this Spotify May purchase the gimlet network for like, I don't know like 230 million dollars or something crazy like that, but I'm more curious and does this have any real effect. I don't think for most of us it does not Um, but overall for podcasting, you know, there are things we don't know and By the time you listen to this we probably might know them So that's why we have to be careful about how much we focus on like current events, but You know, is it an exclusive deal right? So like I'm more curious Um, do you think how does locking shows into a single distributor? So if like all gimlet shows were on spotify only even if they were free um You know at that point, is it even a podcast? Um, if you can't get it via rss, right? I mean, it's not really a podcast, right? but What do we think that it has an effect of like big shows sort of breaking off and these you're seeing this like original content All these platforms want to have their own original content. So they're buying up stuff that's already doing well In this case, I don't know. I mean, what do you guys think? Is this a good? Is this good for podcasting if if if the gimlet network goes over there? Does it matter? Is there any is there any upside downside to it? I see some upside Well, I would think if they put out two hundred and thirty million dollars for a product They're then going to put out, you know a fair amount of budget to make people then come listen to it And so I hope when they get there they'll accidentally find my show while they're at it The the business side if you're like, why would they pay two hundred and thirty million? Because there's no royalties on a podcast So when you run an ad against a music song Whatever they pay them 0.0002 cents or whatever it is But when you run it against a podcast I don't get the 0.002 cents that a musician gets because there's no mechanical rights There's no royalties or anything like that. So in theory podcasts are cheaper to Sell because you there's no Royalties So my question would be that I go man two hundred and thirty bucks is a lot of Like how many plays would that be for a musician? To equal two hundred and thirty million that you're not going to have to pay those guys And then I'm with you ray. It makes me think they're going to make it exclusive like they did with amy schumer and joe biden and I don't know that's I don't know how I feel about that. I I see the good thing where hey, this might bring more people to spotify But we're gonna end up like I don't know about you when I have an amazon fire tv when I go there I'm like wait. Where was I watching that show? Was that on hulu or netflix or was it on amazon? And there have been times when I'm like I could have sworn that or is it on hbo go? And I'm like, I can't remember where I was watching that There are shows I don't there are shows I just don't watch if it's not on the platform I already have like I just will say not doing it and and and the hardest part Is getting someone hooked right if you got me hooked And then then maybe I was you know, if I am listening to a property. I mean like Pod save america is a show that I listen to and They got an hbo and I don't have hbo, but trust me. I found ways to get hbo Like I was like, I'll I'll do the hbo go for a month because I want to see this this show I'm already into so you know if with gimlet, they're gonna bring over a lot of people But then any new people are probably only gonna come From spotify if it's locked in that platform it's gonna be harder to drag people into a spotify subscription, but You know for for spotify I mean gimlet is a hit maker If they tried to do that on their own it would probably cost them more and they might not do it They know what they're getting when they purchase The shows and a network and I would think that it's a lot of acquisitions like this They buy them kind of like instagram with facebook you buy the team and let them to keep doing what they're doing So I would think but as gimlet. You're just like we cashed out like How I don't know how that works like do we continue to get paid after you pay us once like yeah Because they have ads and they have ads in those episodes. So how does that work? Do they maybe spotify wants those advertisers as well? They're buying all of that, right? I don't know um It'd be fun to watch see what happens Well, I'm still watching I heart media which bought stuff media. So the stuff you should know And I'm waiting to see because I heart media they're they're still in trouble, right? They're not technically bankrupt, but they're kind of on on the trajectory I thought they had Remedyed that situation. Those media companies are always on the brink. Yeah So it's one of those things that okay. Well, why did I heart buy Stuff you should know and they're not doing it. They're not making that exclusive and hopefully spotify will do the same thing with gimlet. So Yeah, being exclusive. I mean he can't imagine that they wouldn't Be exclusive because what are you buying at that point? Here's a question. How many of you listen to a gimlet show? I Ironically, I mean start-up was the only one I listen. Yeah, I listen to start. Yeah, but I haven't not since then um You know, I guess spotify is also purchased I mean if you if spot if gimlet properties and they make hit shows You know, the next thing they're gonna make is probably gonna be heard by a lot of people Then it's brought to you by spotify, right? So they're getting their name Into a place that reaches a lot of people maybe outside their platform And that could be one thing that they're paying for as well They're also bringing in the quality which um, I I'm not I don't think they're going to say to anybody else on their platform who's submitting their podcast You know, you have to up your quality because we have gimlet. So your podcast You know, but it's kind of a nice incentive of just like hey guys Maybe get a better mic that everyone has their own. I don't know just just throwing that out there Crazy talk I know One is fine for five people That we hand around and have no stabilizer for oh no, no, no, no, you put it in the middle of the table and you all stand way back In the kitchen While touching the table like yep with the ice cubes going Yeah, and a lot and a lot of pens that click yes and slurping your drink. Oh god. Yeah Oh man, I thought I just waited I was gonna let that show right there if I kept going for 40 minutes I would have let it go. I would have let that go in the chats calling me out Okay, I started with a rock band mic and then I upped my game That's funny, uh So anyways, we don't know what's gonna happen. I mean I for us To more attention to podcasting so Congrats, I mean gimlet the only people it may not be good for is Spotify because they're gonna spend the money Gimlet's gonna get their money um And we're gonna get attention on podcasting because you know, hopefully Spotify hopefully for Either Spotify or for gimlet kind of like google podcast It won't be a shiny new toy that then they forget about In six months, right when another toy comes along and that was uh chris I think uh, I chris at I chris on twitter chris ends. He said that uh, you know Spotify Obviously doesn't care about podcast the way that gimlet does um gimlet started, you know, they they have a true passion for what they do So hopefully it doesn't affect what they're doing there with podcast It would be nice if that I didn't think about that. Maybe having gimlet come on board. Maybe spotify would actually Fix some things that they should fix when it comes to podcasting like better show notes spotify if you're listening better show No, yeah better show notes and quit hosting everybody's files and just let them pass through I thought they were gonna do that That was a big rumor and I heard it was a big rumor for february. So we got another 27 days Why don't you tell why don't you tell the round table audience why that's important to you? Oh, oh god because when you make a mistake And and there's 20 seconds of blank space And let's say you're using I don't know a normal host blueberry lips and spreeker or whatever You upload the same name file and poof. It's gone Except on google play music because they make a copy and spotify. So now if you want that file to be updated everywhere You have to upload a differently named file So that means now for the next 24 hours ish When people click play on apple podcast It's not going to work because your feed hasn't officially kind of updated And it's still pointing at the old file that doesn't exist But now spotify will update at which point I go over and say let's look at the spotify stats We let's look at the apple stats. You know what? I'm going to leave the 20 seconds of silence and spotify for those people as a collector's item Special edition podcast episode. Yeah So if they if if they got rid of that that would be a really good thing And if they could somebody please take google play music or at least podcasting in google play music And take it out behind the barn and just yeah Just just do it. Just do it. Just do it. Just pull the trailer that google play exactly google plus. Come on You know at this point I'm just happy that they keep hangouts But because google plus is being taken out behind the barn I heard a rumor they're getting rid of hangouts. What did you're the first? What are you talking about? I have a pixel. We hear things Oh, like we're gonna discontinue your pixel No, the the hangouts App yeah, so I don't think I think hangouts on air is maybe the only successful thing that's separate But out of yeah, that's all yeah the messaging app. They make it right hangouts itself So it's weird because it's all morphed google's so confusing. You never know what's working. What's broken? What's gonna continue, but he doesn't mean it I have no google products in here anyways, I'm not I just love tech So I'm not offended the see this is on youtube. So no one will ever see this Get bought revenge um But hangouts on air seems to be the only successful thing that came out of that sort of google plus experiment I mean we had an amazing podcast community there. It's funny because they you're killing google plus Uh, this is a classic round table rat hole. We've just fell down But they're killing gill google plus because it didn't have enough activity But like I know the the podcast like uh Community was just like super active. So they're one enough of those apparently You should have had a you know, I guess facebook fan page for your podcast is the better route than google plus fan page I think um It's not relevant to podcasting, but it's google related. Um, yeah as you said they have history of doing of of getting rid of things that You know, a good number of people are Using at a fans of and I I still don't forgive them for getting rid of google reader. Yeah, most people probably don't no I don't forget them for getting rid of i google, which was my favorite homepage in the entire world. I loved it Yes, that's true. Oh, and and I just spent 45 dollars on a chromecast that is now being discontinued I don't really have a chromecast that it just plugs in and stays hot and I never use Yeah, and then uh, I thought I could just connect my phone to my tv I can if I buy an app that has a five dollar subscription a month and I was like So I don't want to see chromecast go away. That's a hand or subscription. We're talking about exactly All right. Hey, let's we still have time Let's I I almost don't want to do this one because it feels like it'd be better at the Front end of another round, but who cares? Um This was an article Dan my Meisner, Mizzner, how do you say that? He's he writes on I don't know who he writes for but he writes a lot about podcasting lately on medium And this was an article called how to make amazing podcast artwork and it was more of like an interview But just the first question of this Let me I'm approving a couple of links here in the chat, which apparently I have to do for everyone But thanks everyone for including links. Emily is the Dave Jackson of the chat tonight. She beat me to it I Every time she beat you to a Dave I never had I don't think I approved one link from Dave Jackson. So no by the time I copy it I look and like there it is. I'm like, I never mind You know when the you know when the starting quarterback gets hurt and then you bring in the backup and the starting one never comes back Welcome to your new show Emily. Yay. So I went a sports ball today You went at round table ball. Yes No, all right We'll just dock Dave's pay because we know that's a lot of money. That's it So this first question he asked is what's the job of a piece of podcast artwork? And these people nick burns and laura walters. I'm not sure who they are. It's probably an article Uh, they said the job is first to convey the type of content You're going to experience whether that's as broad as humorous Wait, what whether that's as broad as humorous first technical or it's as specific as the topic itself The visuals need to communicate the tone and the content in a really quick Glance and there was a lead in about how you know That it was kind of ironic that a lot of times with podcasts people use their Eyes before they use their ears because and if said this a lot Your podcast artwork might be that one chance to get someone to then Press play or to read the description or go further Right as oftentimes a first impression that someone may have in an app in You know, if you're using itunes desktop or maybe even like who knows instagram Who knows where people find your artwork? But um And then laura says personally I notice when podcast art isn't great And I noticed when it is great as a listener of podcasts I really enjoy when the graphics are good and it encourages me to trust the publisher of the content and then keep exploring more Of what they produce so I think also I think it is important to again putting your best foot forward to make a good first impression I'm telling you man. You could be like a terrible youtuber But if you're if you're if you're very first three seconds is like super professional because you bought a motion graphic on whatever site You're like, whoa, it leaves some impression now two minutes in i'm like Okay, this person doesn't know what they're talking about. I'm out of here But that first impression may get people to stay that two minutes to actually check out your content to see if it's any good So with your podcast artwork to be honest with this show the round table. I don't like it. I'm not a graphic designer I made it myself. I think most of us independent podcasters make our own artwork but What went into your what went into your artwork? Did you pay for it? Do you think it's important? Do you want to change it? Does anyone ever comment on it? I don't ever get comments on it maybe because it sucks, but Emily, you know with your podcast artwork I feel like you're calling me out specifically because you remember my very first podcast artwork I do not if I had a good memory maybe but my memory sucks. So there's nothing personal here It's a random choice my very first podcast. You're projecting by the way. I know I'm gonna I'm so embarrassed by this um So my first podcast it was called classy little podcast. We talked about trivia and history over wine and cheese My cover art. Wait, does that not exist anymore? Well, I stopped doing it. Oh It's still out there People don't listen. Yeah. I think for a long time. That's how I knew you. I don't think I knew your name I know class little podcast. That's what I knew you as and that was the thing was um I remember tweeting the first time I met you at podcast movement. I'm like, oh my god Ray Ortega just smiled at me I wonder if he actually recognizes me or if he's waiting for a cat and a bowtie to appear because that was my podcast cover art We did talk about that. I think nothing to do with wine or cheese or trivia. It was just look at my cat He's wearing a bowtie. I'm so excited about this. No, it was terrible It was I made so many mistakes with that show that I love being able to tell people now. I'm like Here's what you don't do Even though you have a really cute cat don't put a bowtie on him and expect him to sell a podcast because he won't Finally we added wine And cheese and like some trivia things into our podcast cover art people realize. Okay All right, I'm starting to get this I'm starting to understand what this is My podcast cover art now for the story behind was actually professionally designed by my publisher of the book because they wanted to I actually asked them, you know Can you design my cover art to look like my book so that people see the book and they'll say Oh, that's Emily's show. That's her cover art. So they designed it for me and before that I designed it in canva But as long as you know the specs um And unless you're a podcast, you know, I'm taking Daniel's hat right now unless you're a podcast about podcasting I don't want to see microphones or headphones or any of those cliche things in your cover art No, no, no, don't even do that if you're a podcast So, okay, what was important to you? What What did you think of Emma? First of all ginger. Where did you how did you create your podcast cover art for your show? Did you steal the show's artwork? Oh lord, no remember there was no show when we started that's right Yeah, but why would you you knew something was coming there had to been correct But I'm saying we couldn't there's nothing to steal really like they just just it was just like we're gonna start Correct. Oh, I'm surprised they would start a show without branding. They may have had branding of like the font like a lettering Right, but there was no like image. There was no opening show opening yet So what we did was um, and it changed it's changed once in five and a half years What we did was um the story of outlander in the first book in the very beginning um Part of the story takes place in in in verness. I studied Many many little years ago. I was uh, I studied in scotland for a year And I went on a trip to n verness and I took a picture of the river ness by night And I sent the digital image to my sister who painted that image So we use the digital image of the painting of a digital image For outlander it was very pretty and I still have it Well once the show came out and we saw what the actual opening sequence was it was of standing stones and a sunrise and everything My sister took that and painted that So, um, it's really it's it's a very monnaie impressionistic, uh quality, but um, yeah, so she painted that What was your goal? So for me, it's funny because the round table Speaking of google and things they've killed google circles doesn't exist anymore The round table was it says podcasters round table Let's got the name of the show and then there's a circle behind it And it was because this show was I built this show Based on the tech google hangouts on air. I was like I have friends Let's just talk about podcasting and then I put them in circles because it was based on that whole concept I just loosely based the artwork on it and again At not much time spent on it And I actually tried to put it on a shirt the other day to entertain the idea of a shirt By the way, you're not getting a shirt anytime soon, but maybe sp is that's more shows. Yeah, I know five more shows So I better get I better get on that design. It sucked on a shirt, by the way, so it's not you're not getting that one Not happening I have a picture of a cat you can use Be Amazing and in fact I figured it out. We're just gonna use other pieces other people's podcast art works This is about other podcasts. That's true. We're gonna use the artwork of other that'll be cool We'll do limited runs. We'll have like 100 shirts with cats on it This is gonna be the best. Thanks. You just broke this wide open. So you might get a shirt in like 10 years Okay, so anyways So that's it. It just it conveys the name and the letters are big So hopefully you can see it in a small size with the round with the podcast or studio Again, it's got the name. It's had several iterations where I had my own name on it It's got an XLR cable to sort of represent so it's close to a microphone, but not quite Dave you're not a graphic artist I'm not and I've proven it time and time again What do you what is your goal with podcast artwork when you create a new show because we know that's like every week Yeah, I um I usually make something in canva And give it to and give it to a professional and go this is what I'm thinking Just make it look like it's not designed by somebody who's not a graphic designer Um, and so that's what I've done. I use podcast designs a lot my last one I went to I think it's kappa 99 And what's kind of confusing about that service is their their main bread and butter is you can Hire them for hundreds of dollars a month and they will just be your your graphic people for everything you want Which is great except I need them for one job And if you go to the more button you can get artwork for 50 bucks So I've used them once I think that anyone starting a new podcast or getting into podcasting has a hard time with that And that's why we get bad artwork that's created by ourselves. We're not graphic artists What's the value in investing in your artwork? First impression. Yeah first. So back to the first impression. Yeah, I mean you can't judge a book by a cover Yes, you can it's really easy you look at that and go wow, that's horrible The same thing that we sort of talk about how tech doesn't drive All these discovery things and different and being in the charts and this doesn't really drive your audience Does podcast artwork really make a difference though? For me if I saw if I type in You know, whatever pygmy ponies and I see there's three pygmy pony podcasts Say that three times fast and two of them have professional artwork and one doesn't I know the I'm gonna okay. Now it's down to two at least for me. I don't know. What about you guys I think I think um kind of going back to what I think uh ray was saying about from from the article he was talking about um Part of the job Rightly or wrongly part of the job of artwork of anything a book a podcast A movie billboard whatever it is is to gain attention And then once you have someone's attention It's going to be you know a positive or negative reaction. Um And negative doesn't necessarily mean bad right? It just depends on what you're going for But I I agree with Dave if I if I'm looking for something especially by by niche or or um or topic And a flurry of results come up I'm I'm I'm likely going to ignore the ones that are not pleasing to my eye Bad, I mean super amateur Podcasts are work. I mean if you're filtering by if you're trying to figure out What do I listen to first that first impression like something super amateur like Could lead you to think well, then why wouldn't the podcast be the same thing, right? So I might I might try that podcast, you know That might not completely turn me off, but it might not be where I go first and That other podcast then has an opportunity to sort of Get your subscription right and then you might be satisfied like if I'm looking for Westworld podcasts and I click on one and they're the people that I'm like they're giving me what I want I don't really have a reason to explore any other at westworld podcasts per se So I think related to that first impression. That's it's probably Pretty important for me. I also I always look at podcasts and I'm like man their branding has been the same since like day one and it's great And now they do have shirts or cups or mugs and I'm like and it's all stuff that Like I wouldn't mind displaying in public You're like I'd wear that shirt or that coffee cup looks really cool and I love the show I'm gonna get that so I think it's really It's nice to be able to if you have a professional design what they can do for you oftentimes is makes Make a design that looks good on other stuff like if you do get to the point We're gonna sell some merch Hopefully and that's easy to do you can go on all these third party sites and put your logo on stuff Um, and I think you know, again, that's all of that sort of small move marketing made up that term Um that that we do as podcasters if we're trying to like generate any kind of income But even beyond income just something to give our audience You know, I've seen I've seen shirts of podcasts I love that are just like the massive I'm like, I wouldn't look I love the show. I'm not wearing that in public It's just is bad But you know, so I think I think graphic first impressions are important for sure but in terms of You know, you If it's that first thing you see and you're judging by what information what information do you have on your I think we all have our title right the title of the show Although I am kind of curious Is it redundant? Is there a place where artwork exists where you also don't see a title? So like in in itunes apple podcast if I saw your artwork The title of your show is going to be underneath it. It's kind of when I think of youtube thumbnails Your a youtube thumbnail is another opportunity to tell me something more About the content because the title is right there. I know the title if you repeat that on the thumbnail It's a wasted opportunity and I'm wondering Suddenly does this could this have any impact on podcast artwork? Do you need to put the time is it redundant? Is there a place that exists for the majority of places you find podcasts where the artwork is just telling you again What the title is showing you right next to it We're just going thinking in my mind about since since I'm using my phone for this and I can't look at it I just go through Um thinking of times I've gone through looking for podcasts whether it's on apple podcasts or on an app You're absolutely right. The title is there, but it's so small compared to that graphic that I don't even Like if if I'm looking for those pygmy ponies Okay, then I am not looking at the title of what comes up. I'm looking. Okay I've already put in my search parameter. What they gave me was the pygmy ponies So these three I'm gonna look at Which one or two or whatever, you know are not visually attractive at first so, um Then after I kind of saw something and and dismissed it then I might go say, okay Well, I wonder what this one's called. Um, if it's not, you know automatic, but I'm so number one I think the font comparably is so much smaller or the the type number two I'm so conditioned to look at the image for the title I Don't think it's I totally I see what you're saying and I'm wondering if it's a missed opportunity to do more But I think we've Can we're conditioned at least to look at the image for for the title and it's just much bigger I have an example that I'm looking at on my phone. Um, hopefully The people in the video can see this. It's at the very bottom right. It's a red Logo with a circle and that's all it is now if you were to see that Would you have any idea what that's about? That is something you're already subscribed to right because yes, there's no way they're showing me that with no no description No, it looks like a hair braid Or one of the same. It's just a war shock test and davis. Yeah telling us some interesting Yeah, no It's an investing podcast. What I would have said like, uh, eclipse some weird eclipse Yeah, no, it's an investing podcast that I really like and it's nice and short except for this random one. That's a hundred 1300 minutes for some reason but for the most part it's very short And I don't understand the logo and the thing is whenever it comes up on my app even though I've listened to it I still have to check wait. What podcast is this? Yeah, I mean It's very pretty But I I just I have one of my favorite shows chains are artwork and I was like, uh, it's terrible Like you're even screwing up my display in my app. What are you doing? Like I took it personally Don't mess up with my checkerboard, man I've been reading don miller's story brand and he has a phrase if you confuse you lose So I think that's the case because I see people what I love is they'll they'll get the 3000 by 3000 artwork Not realizing that that's going to get shrunk down to like God knows what 75 by 75 or something like that It's a little cram all this information, you know, the school of podcasting with Dave Jackson school of podcasting.com Uh Plan launch grow your and it's like and then it gets shrunk down and it's you can't read any of it So I always say make the name of your show ginormous And that way when it does get shrunk down, hopefully they can See your name There was some threat in in our personal slack recently about, uh, putting your face on cover artwork and does that work? And I I had just done that but it was only because I have a Private patreon podcast so there was like nothing didn't have a name. It was just like this is a podcast So like it was the only case where People would recognize like my face was like this thing that people would know like that's raised podcast Yeah, it's private podcast like it's no no brain into it. Otherwise. I would never put my face on there I mean, maybe if you're like a celebrity, right that might be a reason but Um, we're talking about like cliche things like mics and like maybe if you know, whatever you are The like the thing of your industry like what do you put on there? But um, yeah, I mean the information The title of the show and that it's big enough Patrick kelder in the chat says artwork will determine a book he buys and I'll say I mean, how do you pick wine all the time people just pick by the label man? Come on They probably offend Emily, but oh no, I picked by the label all the time. I don't know what I'm picking out I had a wine podcast Right, I don't like wines, but I am I am attracted to pretty bottles, but I drink um whiskey. So um I and I have very distinctive likes and dislikes. So I have to either research it or um, or waste a lot of money Yeah Do you listen to the whiskey cast I do not I mean I have but I do not regularly Okay, I was gonna say because if you didn't know that exist Really great guy. I will no I will definitely I have listened. I don't think I'm subscribed but I will I think I'm one of the few who like people's pictures on their podcast cover art I don't necessarily recommend it as my number one recommendation, but I like it sometimes to Put a face to that voice A lot of the times or some people will do a cartoon versions of themselves And I'm usually like oh, that's very sweet. I kind of like that I can't stand cartoon versions of avatars because I'm like, I don't know who that is Like I don't know it's you like I love face people who are talking about faces. Let's just derail this Not having your a picture of you in your like twitter avatar I'm like, I don't ever really know who you are like I need a face like in that case like Not not a picture of your cat media when yeah, how dare you how dare I mean if a cat is tweeting Fine. I know the cat, but I need to know it's owner I'm down like get your own account cat like I'm fine with that I'm fine with that Emily, it's okay. I've got to I I have your back. I'm looking for them. I'm like I he will he will yell at you That's I am cool with cats, dude. That's not what I'm saying Because when I do this we do live live aftershows after a new episode of outlanders on the air and um Oh my yeah, they will Either be all over me or knock over lights and so yeah, no mine have to be locked up Patrick also says isn't the face on album artwork kind of an old school thing all the dead podcasts from 10 years ago have faces Do you remember that being a thing dave? Was everyone putting their face on a podcast artwork? How about I don't I don't remember that along the same trends What do you remember since dave has been here before podcast started? Um, he just waiting dave was like I have a podcast. I'm waiting for them to develop Was all the cover art and black and white dave it was all Until it was invented we now have podcast in color Have you seen anything change dave like was there something you remember like podcast artwork being I mean, it was probably just all homemade in the beginning. Yeah, I remember a lot of microsoft paint kind of like wow That's you know, was that done in crayon again? That would be awesome artwork. Yeah um Yeah, a lot of it was homemade and then eventually You know upgraded they finally figured it out that maybe we should let somebody who actually does this for a living You know create that I don't remember a lot of faces though. Um, I remember and it was always kind of um Like extreme in many cases like it was if it was a heavy metal like more extreme or No, like just like if it was like a heavy metal thing it was like Things were on fire and double horns and like yeah, it was just like um, so everything seemed to be And if it was a lot of stuff crammed into probably a very small space. Yes. Yeah, because that's back when God think about that album art used to be 300 by 300. That's back when nerds were making podcasts And they wanted all their nerd stuff on there and I'm including myself Yeah Oh, all right. Well Let me probably beat all these horses We don't beat any no horses were beat in the making of the round And no cats and no cats were injured definitely no cats or insulted right not insulted Just get the cat it don't twitter account mine, but no one else can Uh, I look forward to tweeting your cat Oh gosh We'll DM Yeah All right Let's get out of here. Let's tell everyone where they can find one of our podcasts And uh, thanks for being on the show Dave Jackson You can find me over at school of podcasting dot com So Much like I said, are we wasting an opportunity on our artwork? Are we doubling up on the thing that's already there title on our artwork title in description? You see both as Dave went with the very same thing he opens the show with so I don't I think you missed opportunity there Dave, but uh, or I you're just nailing at home. You're just sending it home That's it. I'm just trying to get it ingrained. That's right. People have to hear things like seven times before When you think podcasting think school of podcasting dot com podcasting Dave also just found a cheap way to get an extra plug in. All right. Yes It's all right. Just co-host way to give him a little a little leeway Emily thanks again for joining us Thanks for having me. I'm at the story behind podcast.com which I said in the beginning of the show Because when people heard me in the beginning, they didn't know who I was Maybe they want to follow me and my cat now now they like you Before they're like, who's this who's this woman? I'll put plenty of cat pictures on instagram And you can find that at my website too. You claim To be five Away from a shirt. Did you have you been on this show five times? I don't buy that actually I think either four or five. You're just guessing is what you're just randomly throwing out numbers hoping to be closer to 10 Okay, right, right. You had me tonight Just a question just trying to find out because my whole point is again, how many times you have to hear the story behind Right to get it in there. It's branding. You got to say it again and again and again All right, she's checking on that by the way. We got to get out of here before she discovers a real number and finds out It's nine And ginger thanks for joining us for your first ever round table. Oh my pleasure. Thanks for thanks for the invitation Where shall we find your um? At very original outlander pod.com pod just pod. I like you what yeah, why not podcast Well, actually I can answer that so when we when we did start I tried to get all the social media handles before we went live. Yeah, and oh you're launched before you launched Before we launched yes And so went live. Sorry before we put anything out there or started talking about it and I think I was on twitter first and It is literally like two or three characters too much I was like dammit So I didn't want to use these so I said, okay Has to have outlander because that has to be there podcast. Uh, and I wasn't very knowledgeable yet about what other podcasts do in their name I know it's some some are pods and are cast some are podcasts and like, you know what keep it keep it pod Keep at the beginning of the word. So once we got twitter as outlander pod. I wanted to be consistent as much as possible So we got our url our domain for outlander pod.com. Yeah as much as you can keep The brand the same thing everywhere. It's so much better. Like I don't have any I mean like ideally I'd be rare take it everywhere I mean I'm podcast helper on most places because I couldn't get rare take everywhere Only because twitter and the rare tega that's holding is hostage doesn't do anything with it twitter. That's twitter's fault anyways Not better. All right. Well, yes, that's a good advice Try to match your branding. It just makes it easier for the audience if they know they're like, well, I follow I follow um outlander pod on instagram. Maybe that's their twitter handle. Oh, turns out it is Congrats. You found me. All right Thanks, everyone podcast was round table comm slash guest if you want to be on a round table That'll put you on the list. It'll ask you some things you want to talk about we don't do that anymore It doesn't matter you should do work for you get on the show Um, and then I'll contact you about five hours before we go live and if you're available we'll bring you on That's how it works very informal. Thanks. We'll see you next time. You must wave. Goodbye audio. Bye Whoa, I almost hung up. I do that wrong. I've done it so many times. Keep waving Ray