 Good evening, everyone. Welcome to modern day debate. Tonight, we have a very special panel with a variety of world views for you tonight. Tonight, we have Kay Fellows representing her pagan worldview. We have Jenna Belk representing her atheist worldview. We have William George Peter representing his Christian worldview. And we have Jennifer Scharf representing her pantheist worldview. And we have Praise Producing as always. Tonight, we have five minute openings for everybody, followed by 50 minutes of open dialogue and then 30 minutes of Q&A. Remember to tag me in modern day debates if you want to do more questions read along with the super chats. And we will go ahead and kick it off with Kay Fellows. The floor is all yours. Hi, everybody. I'm Kay. I'm pagan. I'm also what they would call an omnis. For those who may not know what that means, it means that I believe in all of the existence of all deities. So I believe that all religions to some extent have a little bit of validity. And I just choose which deities to acknowledge or serve for lack of a better term. I'm very, very new to paganism. I founded about a year ago. I grew up actually Christian due to some extreme religious trauma. I was an atheist for a little while. And then I found paganism last year and I'm still exploring and learning about it. And I'm super, super excited to hear all of the different world views tonight. All right, let's go ahead and kick it over to Jenna Belk. The floor is all yours. Hello. That's awesome. I'm excited to hear more about your worldview. I have only been an atheist for a couple of years, so I'm new to mine. I think that I'm kind of the oddball here, though, because I think that there's there's active belief involved in everyone else but me. So I'm kind of like the opposite of all of you. So as far as where my beliefs go, I mean, my beliefs are very personal to me. And I don't necessarily define them as atheist views. So I'm probably going to end up asking more questions and just because I'm so intrigued by everybody. I was raised Catholic, a pretty strict Catholic, and I have identified as agnostic for a couple of years and then found that I didn't have any reason to believe in any of it. So I'm open to changing my mind at all times if I have a reason to. So I'm really excited to hear more. Hey, thank you, Jenna. And let's go ahead and kick it over to William George Peter for his opening. Five minutes to all yours. Hi, everybody. I am a Christian, but the favor of my Christian is totally deferred from others. I'm not here, you know, as a believer. When I say that I'm not here as a believer, that does not mean I was not a believer. I was a believer once. First, I was a sinner, then I was a believer, and thereafter as a result of believing in God in Jesus, I have become born again, or I have become saved, or I have become a temple of God, or I have become a witness of Jesus like that. So can I take more time, you know, to complete my value? I'm sorry? Yeah, can I take more time, you know, to continue my, yeah, this is Peter, you know, as I said, you know, these are the sequence of my position, that is, I was a sinner, then believer, as a result of believing in Jesus, I have become a born again. When I say, you know, I am a sinner, because of the fact I was born into this planet by the sinful activities of my parents, my grandparents, my great-grandparents, and the chain goes back to the beginning, to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve, you know, disobey the commandment of God, and that, you know, God breathed his own spirit into the nostrils of Adam, which was removed from the physical body of Adam. And instead, as a result of eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the demonic spirit, or the unclean spirit, or the fine spirit are into Adam and Eve. Sorry, because of that reason I was born into this planet as a sinner. So when the Bible says it's corresponding to the reality, and that is the moment, you know, I decided to believe in God, in Jesus. When I say that I began to believe in Jesus, that does not mean I was saved, or I was born again, or I was, you know, something like a witness of God or a temple of God. No, I just began to believe, began to believe in the sense, believe is a psychological process in the brain. So since, you know, it is a psychological process, it must have a beginning point and end point. So I just began to believe in God reading the holy Bible. When I studied the holy Bible, I was growing in the knowledge of knowing more and more and more over a period of time. Then I was growing in the knowledge of knowing Jesus from 0% to 30%, 30% to 60%, 60% to 90%, and 90% to 100%. When I reach, you know, 100%, that is the breaking of the seal of the brain takes place. Breaking of the seal, I mean, since I am a sinner, I do not know, you know, the knowledge of God. So I was blind-minded and my brain is conditioned in a way not to establish contact with God. Therefore, you know, when I reach the end point, the breaking of the seal of the brain takes place. Once the breaking of the seal of the brain takes place, then the finite faculties or whatever, you know, inheritor from my parents, from my predecessors, like, you know, a spirit or a mind or a soul or a consciousness that is removed from my physical body and instead, you know, God's spirit or a Holy Spirit or God's mind or God's soul or God's consciousness or even, you know, God's respect system replaced back into my brain. And on that moment, I have become born again. Or even I say, born again, born again means never dead again. In other words, become like Jesus so that I can repeat whatever Jesus did back then. Therefore, God of the Holy Bible. Alright, thank you, William. And we would now kick it over to Jennifer. The floor is all yours. There's a lot of comments in the chat that the stream is buffering quite badly. So I'm not sure. I just want to see if people in the chat can hear me okay before I start. Because everybody basically in the chat is saying that they can't hear anything because it's buffering so much. Are you going to, do you want me to just go ahead even though it's buffering or... Wait for somebody to say anything. Yeah, I'm not sure why it's buffering here. Anybody in the chat say something if you can hear her chat. They're saying that you have too many things running, Chaz. I have every, I can't close anything else. Okay. Oh, sorry. Whoever's running the stream. Can you hear Jennifer? Yeah, a lot of people are saying they're leaving because it's buffering too much. Moderators, can you hear us? I have it open over on the side and it doesn't look like it's... You're coming through but it sounds like... The call. Let's try that, I guess. William, can you turn off your camera for the call? Let's see if that helps people hear us better. Can you turn off your camera? Alright, can anybody hear us better now? It's still not playing anything. Anybody in the chat? Give us some feedback, please. Hey guys, just testing to see if we're coming through. Can you let us know in the chat so I can start my five minute explanation of pantheism? Hannah, Anderson, can you let us know if you can hear us? Anyone in the chat, we just want to know that the issues resolve. So maybe they can't hear us. We are talking to the people in the chat. Can you guys hear us? Oh my. Hi, this is Billy. I made my five minute opening statement. If anybody is interested, you can also go back to making a statement. Pantheist here, I'm willing to listen to you. What do you think, Grace? People are saying in the chat that you're way too low. They can't hear you in the chat, William. They're saying you're too low. I can barely hear you either. It's getting better. It seems okay. You can hear us. Okay, great. Hannah says she can hear us. I'll start then. Thanks everyone for your patience. Okay. And thank you everyone gathered for the debate today as well as moderator. Kaz and channel owner James. I'll be talking about pantheism today. So first of all, what is pantheism? Well, there are a lot of different versions floating around out there. But the basic premise is that God is equal to the universe. It is easy to believe because it's more or less a choice of aesthetic preference that a statement of faith because who's going to deny that the universe exists. However, it nevertheless leaves much to be explored for the devout seeker who's interested in deeper topics like physics, logic, and sociology. Pantheism has a rich history from the ancient Vedic seers to the more recent Orphic hymns upon which the Christian religion is partially based. The theme that God is the universe is threaded throughout much of human history. More recently, the Italian friar Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for evangelizing a transcendent and infinite God in the year 1600. Things had cooled down a bit by 1665 when Baruch Spinoza was only excommunicated for using the word God to describe the unity of all substance. But the cat was ultimately out of the bag and pantheism underwent a type of Streisand effect where interest grew gradually in circles of thinkers that had been preoccupied with the transcendental questions. And so there's a lot of back and forth from this time to about the early 1900s when this metaphysics was displaced by what we now have today which could be loosely described as quantum mechanics and general relativity. Somebody's unmuted if everybody could please just mute so that there's no noise. Thank you. Alright, so you might ask why pantheism? Well, aside from the fact that it's super easy to believe in the basic premise, it's super hard to know exactly what a religion is doing because just reading the contents of the scripture may not actually give you a proper feel of what it's going to be like to practice that religion. For that reason, we have to treat religion more or less like a black box that we don't know how it functions, but we can judge it based on the outcome. Although no religion is perfect, pantheism has been espoused by scientists who have made significant developments. And I think the most significant one might be Leibniz who embraced a type of pantheism with his monadism and also invented calculus. Indeed, the arguments understood as best substantiating the existence of God such as the prime mover and cosmological arguments are based on the pantheistic God. Pantheism is thus correlated with scientific clarity and development easy to believe, which diminishes the doubt we would have for being affiliated with it, which is always good because doubt is sort of the enemy of confidence. And we want to be certain about our beliefs rather than insecure because certainty is what leads to success. If one is interested in debating on the validity of their premises. Personally, the beliefs give me tremendous amount of comfort and strength. I've also developed a working field model for physics as well as a subjective consciousness. Through my study of religion and science, I have managed to disprove the Godel incompleteness theorem, Big Bang, and a slew of other ideas that are not completely false but also not completely true such as evolution. I've determined a working cosmological model that predicts red shifting. I've proven reincarnation with quantum mechanics. I won't go into all the different things that I've done but I'll just show you a picture of what I consider to be my biggest accomplishment which is the three-dimensional periodic table which I call the quantum periodic table. So I've got it here. Hopefully it's not buffering too much and you can see it. But yeah, this is a basically reddish of the correct orientation of the periodic table which unifies the space-time dimensions between this scale and the macro scale that we experience. So it's pretty fun to investigate this stuff. I know a lot of people have complained that it's too complicated and I agree it is complicated to understand all of it but that's kind of a good thing, isn't it? You don't want to get bored by your religion. So there's always something new to discover and then this super pretty picture of what the universe looks like at the fundamental level and what I think is really good proof of God because this is kind of like micro-God. It's the smallest conceivable space-time event. Oh, am I done? Yeah. Thank you so much for your attention and looking forward to the rest of the conversation. I'll turn the camera off in case we get those buffering issues again. All right. Thank you so much, Jennifer. And thank everybody on the panel for your opening statements. I want to remind everybody that we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science, religion, and politics. I want you to feel welcome no matter what your views are or what walk of life you're from. Our guests are linked in the description below. Jenna Belk has a link tree in the description as well as Kay Fellows has a link tree there and Jennifer Sharf is hosting an after-show from her Church of Entropy. I believe that's the... Is that the name of your channel or is that the name of the after-show? Jennifer. Yeah, the channel if people want to sub, it's Church of Entropy. It's always nice to have new people in the chat and get a chance to meet new people who are interested in talking about the same things as I am. Awesome. Thank you so much. And don't forget to smash that like button and subscribe for more live debates coming soon. And with that, let's go ahead and kick it over to the open dialogue. Everybody, the floor is all yours. Go ahead. Well, I guess I can break the silence. I just wanted to apologize in advance in case there's any background noise. It just started raining here really hard, so if it sounds like they're static, there's not really much I can do about it, so I'm sorry. But it was very interesting to listen to everybody's descriptions of things. I have so many questions, but I'm curious if I can ask UK, if I can ask you to expand a little bit more on what you actively believe. Yeah, sure. Like I said, I'm still super, super new to paganism, and paganism is a very, very broad belief because I'm also an omnis and I believe that all of the deities exist to an extent. With pagans, you really don't know where you're going to get because some pagans only pay homage to specific deities, and there are pagans like me that haven't even chosen a specific deity, but paganism really is just kind of a worship of the earth, honestly. I actually came into paganism because I started practicing witchcraft and just being really, really in tune with just the earth in general and finding just this very steady energy throughout all of nature. So I haven't chosen like what you might call a higher power that I pace any type of service to as of right now because I'm still trying to learn as much as I possibly can about each and every one of them, and I am kind of apprehensive coming from a Christian background, and like I mentioned in my opening statement, I have a long history of religious trauma that kind of pushed me into atheism for a really long time. So I'm kind of taking this very small baby steps at a time. I do believe that there's life after death. I do believe in the existence of beings that are, you might say, superior to humans, but overall my religion, as you might call it, I prefer to call it a belief system just because religion is such a heavily charged word. My belief system really is just, I believe that there's a life force in all living things from even the smallest, most insignificant, tiniest little seed all the way up through human beings. And I believe that that life force is important and it's valuable and that we are all connected to each other through that life force. Awesome, thank you. I don't want to ask you more, but I want to give everybody else an opportunity to speak as well. William, why don't you give us a test of your audio so that the chat can give us feedback about it and you can ask maybe a follow-up question about that too if you could. Yeah, are you hearing now? Because I'm hearing you all well. I can hear you fine, but I want to hear what the chat says about it. But if you have any questions for Kay, you can... Yes, I'm actually living in South India in the midst of Panties trying to murder the people or Hindus. But she was talking about some kind of an incarnation. I'd just like to hear from her. What type of a reincarnation she has evidence? Yeah, my name is Jen. So you want the evidence for reincarnation? So that's sort of a question that takes a bit of time to go into. But the basic premise is that... The basic premise is that human consciousness is an electromagnetic waveform. So I don't know if you agree with that or not because the proof is based on that. I'm very intrigued by that. Yeah, so it's like I've had this conversation like a Gajillion times and it's something that people either agree with or fight tooth and nail to disagree with, right? So we're looking for consciousness in the body. We know that the brain has something to do with it, but clearly the brain doesn't tell us everything, doesn't reveal the full complexity of who we are, clearly our mind performs the function of information centralization. Namely, it creates, it generates the personality. Right. So we can all be pretty sure that we have, we experience subjective consciousness. However, our consciousness is more than just our subjectivity and the evidence of that is that when you're asleep, arguably not in a state of awakeness, not subjectively conscious, you still have tons of stuff going on like your heart's beating and your stomach's digesting. So I would argue you're still conscious when you're asleep. You're just not, your subjective consciousness is just inhibited and that's something that is completely expected because we're going for a physical model of consciousness. It's got a whole heck of a lot of energy, right? So if it's on all the time, it's going to burn your poor brain out. Sleeping is to allow the brain to regenerate itself. Pretty self-evident, but it is an important distinction because a lot of people mistakenly believe that the mind comes from the brain when it's actually the other way around, and we believe that because we can't quite visualize the mind as a separate entity. So I'm saying that the consciousness is the total electromagnetic wave form associated with your body. Your subjectivity is a subset of that. It's not the whole thing because the whole thing includes all, excuse me, all that other stuff that I mentioned earlier. So because we can establish it as a quantum mechanical entity because photons are quantum mechanical entities, indivisible quanta of light, it's not kook science. This is not something, this is not controversial. My interpretation is controversial, sure, for some, but the basic premise is not in violation of the commonly accepted physics conventions. So physics, sorry. So physics doesn't come to that conclusion because physics at this time does not concern itself with consciousness because their basic premise is that they're trying to minimize subjectivity. And in so doing, they've said, well, because subjectivity is subjective, we can't study it. So there's not been a whole lot of work aside. It's for a gentleman named Dr. Stuart Hameroff, who has been putting forth an idea of quantum consciousness. It's not the same as mine, but it's the basic premise that there's a quantum system in the body, excuse me, modulated by microtubules, or basically the microtubules are the matrix in which the quantum field is suspended. This is his hypothesis. So it's not unprecedented, but they haven't really looked at it this way. They sort of like, you have psychology, right, which doesn't examine the material nature of consciousness. It just examines the causal mechanisms of consciousness, like what causes depression and stuff like that. It doesn't really answer the question. So there's not really any discipline equipped to answer that question at this time. So I'm making an interpretation that has not been made before, but it fits the evidence, because this electromagnetic, what a lot of people would call an electromagnetic field, but the correct term is an electromagnetic waveform. It can be detected. So you can look it up, electromagnetic waveform human body. If you put that in Google, it'll show you what the images look like. So the field is there. What I'm linking it to is I'm saying this is the field. You can equate this to the base field of consciousness. Your own subjectivity is the subset of that. I'm just introducing a hypothetical mechanism for consciousness. Okay, by that interpretation or the evidence that we say, do you say that you have a proof of the God? Okay, well, you asked me about a proof of reincarnation, so I haven't actually got to the proof of reincarnation because I have to establish what is reincarnating, right? So your consciousness is reincarnating. So the way it works is that your body puts energy into your mind and then your mind puts energy into itself. That I understand, but by this proof, do you say that you have evidence for the existence of God? We're not talking about the existence of God. We're talking about the proof of reincarnation. Those are two different questions. So why does this formalism predict reincarnation? Because according to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, again, this is not me. This is what the scientists are saying. Basically, there's an equivalence between observation and waveform reduction. So if you're observing a system, the only way to do that is to waveform reduce it, which is kind of like squeezing it, so it changes it. So basically, there's no way to... Can you let me finish, please? I'm trying to get through the proof of reincarnation here. So the thing that reduces the waveform for consciousness is the body. And when the body dies, it's not there to reduce the waveform. So the personality is able to reduce itself, which means draw energy out of quantum mechanically. So you can think away your thoughts, feel away your feelings, and sense away your senses once you're dead, your mind that is. But there's no mechanism to reduce the personality. And the only thing that the personality is coherent with, because waveforms only interact, not interfere, excuse me, but react, interact is the right word. Waveforms only interact with things that they're coherent with. And so the waveform reduction that would happen next would be into a fetus. And that would happen when the heartbeat starts at the five-week mark. And so the mind is what is dictating the evolution of the body. So the body is actually causally after the mind. And it's very counterintuitive that the mind would cause the body, but that's indeed how it happens, because before the five-week mark is just like a basically an empty, I don't want to say carbon copy, but it's like an empty shell. And then at the five-week mark, the heartbeat starts. So that's when the energy from consciousness starts to seep into the body. And then that sort of turns the heart on, and the heart is what allows for energy to go back into the mind, which then puts energy in the body, and then you get the cycle set up where it can feed itself. So that's your basic proof of reincarnation. I'm sorry to speak for so long with these questions. I wanted to give you a full answer. I think it's an intuitive proof, but the logic of quantum mechanics is not something most people are familiar with, so I do apologize if that's unclear. Would you say that reincarnation has to do with pantheism, or is that a personal view? The personal view as well as the pantheism, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I meant to ask Jen. I'm sorry. You were describing it. Thank you for that. I'm curious if you would attach that to pantheism, or if that's a personal view. It just depends on how far you want to go into pantheism, right? Because if you just assert that the universe is God, you're not really getting any information out of that assertion. It's more of a metaphysical aesthetic. It's just a way you're agreeing to look at the universe. Then you can start with that premise and then you say, okay, well that means the laws of God or the laws of physics. If I understand the laws of physics, I'll understand the laws of God, so I'm just stating the laws of physics. I'm confused because I can't really tell the difference between pantheism and paganism just because of the way that I've heard each of you describe it. They kind of sound like the same thing to me. I've heard Kay say that you kind of worship the earth and that it's the universe. Jen said the universe is God. I'm kind of curious. I can't really tell what the difference is. There may not be a difference, right? It just may be a matter of I've been studying this for so long. My ideas have developed to this point. Other people haven't studied it as long, so they've only embraced part of the ideas because that's part of the system. You're not supposed to jump to conclusions. You're supposed to sort of test things out for yourself and decide whether you agree with them. There may not be a contradictory stance. You think it's like a spectrum or a timeline or something? The way that you put it, it sounds like you're saying that you're farther along than everyone else and I don't know if you meant that. I'm farther along than other people in my religion. What does that mean? It means that I can develop longer chains of logical causality that emanate from the fundamental axiom. Can you say that again, but slower? I can justify and defend longer causal chains emanating from the primary axiom. The primary axiom is just God is the universe. Are you saying that because you can defend your worldview, that means that you're farther along? Yes. What if everybody can defend their worldview? Are they right? I don't know. It's one thing to be able to defend a worldview is something else to be right. How do you know that you're right? Science? I think I'm right and then I test it and then I get evidence that I'm right and then I'm more sure that I'm right. There are many descriptions of, for example, how we know that reincarnation happens and it sounds like you're very educated about quantum physics, which I cannot wait until I get there, but I have not started that. It just sounds like you're making a whole lot of claims, but not giving any evidence for it. Just descriptions and emotional words and it just sounds like, well, for example, physics doesn't take up on it either. I'm just curious how you know that you're right and if it's dependent on how long you've spent on it or if it's dependent on how big of words you can use or what. Have you ever tried to run through a chain of logical causality to see if it was rational or valid or whatever? Yes. It's kind of like that. What is like that? The process. What process? Of deducing truths via axioms. I understand that, but you haven't given a whole lot of those. Well, this chain of axioms is the universe is God, the laws of God are the laws of physics and these are the laws of physics. So what is, can we find God? The universe. Wait, so why come up with a whole other word for it if it is the universe? Why don't you just use the word the universe? There's a lot of atheism that's running rampant which can easily turn into a hatred for religion. There shouldn't be any shame in being religious and religion shouldn't be excluded from rationalism and I like it. So I don't know, it's an aesthetic preference, right? Interesting. I'm sorry, I feel like I'm taking up the whole show. Somebody else talk. Let's kick it over to Kay and Liam for a second. I don't know if either of you want to interrogate each other. World view for a moment, Kay or William. No, I was just going to say like I am going to, like to next and I'm going to agree with what Jen was saying like whenever she first responded, because like I said I'm super, super new to my belief system and my belief system really is just because I grew up in such a old, my belief system right now for me is just trying to view things with a more open mind and taking things in with that open mind and understanding why I believe the way that I believe about everything in the world around me. So I'm not nearly as far along in what I believe as Jen is and as I grow and I learn more about why I believe the things that I do, I may eventually get to where she is. So there may not be a huge difference between what she believes and what I believe. She's just saying that she's had a lot more education and she's studied a lot longer on why she believes the things that she does because my belief system is very much still like many beliefs in religions. It's very much built solely on ideas and to an extent a blind faith. Like there's not a whole lot of science that goes into what I believe and I can't defend it scientifically. It just is what I believe. Like I do believe that there's natural life but I can't prove that. There are a lot of things that I cannot prove about my belief system. I can argue why I believe them but Jen is so far along in her beliefs that she can defend them using science, using facts and statistics and things that you can visibly see. Interesting. So if we're looking at the spectrum and saying that you are where you are and you're at paganism and you say that you're new and that's why you are there. Jen says that she's farther along and she's a pantheist. So are you saying that you're on the way to becoming a pantheist? How do you know that it's not atheism at the end or Christianity or Judaism? How do you know it's not something else? Honestly, I always looked at beliefs and religions as kind of a spectrum and honestly, if you are willing to challenge your beliefs and why you believe them, which I don't believe enough people are. If you belong to a specific religion there aren't a whole lot of people challenging why they believe that way but I do believe that if you're willing to challenge your beliefs and why you think the way that you do about things that you're going to move one way or another across this spectrum and honestly I don't know where I'm going to land. I was an atheist for a good while but I realized that my atheism was more of a bitterness due to the severe trauma that I had experienced through Christianity and how I grew up and so I started searching and trying to understand what I believed about how the world works or what happens after you die and things like that and I realized that I don't want to believe that you're born, you live, you die and that's the end and that's why I kind of left atheism behind to an extent. I'm not opposed to atheism and I'm not opposed to re-evaluating where I stand and what belief system or what religion I land on as I grow and as I learn more but I think that as you challenge your beliefs you're going to move through this very, very broad spectrum of religion and different beliefs and ideas. So can I ask a question to each of you? I'm curious if each of you believe that you have control over what you believe. Well we talked about this a little bit when we got started as to the question of free will and... What I mean is do you choose your beliefs? Is it possible to look down a list and be like I choose to believe this I don't choose to believe that? Well you're into the domain of the hard problem of consciousness you're into the question of free will like do we have any control over what our destiny is? It's like... We can do things but it's not clear whether those things were predetermined that aside this is what I think it is people just subscribe to religious for different reasons I can't speak for others but personally I just like certainty I don't like to feel nervous or uncomfortable that maybe something I believe is wrong so yeah I will actually categorize and inventory my beliefs I think okay is that actually right or is that just something I wish was true and it's just a way to do that better Okay Kay, William? For me free will is like a really big thing for me because of how I grew up and I was always taught to believe that I was kind of on this path to destiny and I didn't have any type of free will I do like to believe that I have control over my own beliefs and where my beliefs go whatever direction that takes and not just my belief system but my life as a whole that I have complete and total control over it outside of I think that other people affect each other like there's a ripple effect with everything that you do and the voices that you make are going to affect the people around you but to an extent like I do have control over my thoughts and my opinion Interesting, okay Thank you Let me just interject for a second I just want to remind everybody in the chat to please remember to attack the arguments and not the speakers or each other remember to keep everything cordial and to respect the moderators and remember to tag me at modern-day debates William, we haven't heard from you in a while Do you have anything you want to ask? Yeah See I have an opening statement I find out I was a sinner then I became a believer and that as a result of believing in God believing in Jesus I have become a born again Therefore, I do not appear here as a believer For me, a belief is a psychological process that should have a starting point and end point in the brain Therefore, if anybody begins to believe that does not mean he is saved or he is repented or he is remit Over a period of time we study over the Bible then he would reach the end point In the end point the breaking of the scene takes place where all the incedent right that is removed that is not rooted from God actually God breathed his own spirit into the nostrils of mankind which was removed and thereafter due to the fruit that they eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they gained the unclean spirit or a soul or a consciousness that has been passed on throughout the generation and that tried only either cheated from a parent that must be relieved or removed from my physical brain or the God spirit or God's mind or God's consciousness replaced into my body then it goes to the brain and see the game and that is a moment you know I have become a born again or a witness of God therefore I can testify you know God of the Holy Bible exist that's it again you know the free will yes I have a free will whatever the evidence I have just on that I am behaving in a world so as to you know make this world to be a better place by preparing a way for God to come and to establish his kingdom you know that's what my my decision on my my life is all about could you actually answer that same question though? how free do you think we are? oh I don't think that I don't think I choose my beliefs at all you think that they're predetermined what if something bad happened as a consequence and you got tired of the bad consequence so you made the conscious decision to change your beliefs would that be allowable? I don't think that I think that it is possible to brainwash yourself with repetition okay but I don't think believe that I could just decide not to believe something and actually not believe it I could tell myself that doesn't mean I don't does that make sense? yeah sure well what about evidence you're saying there's no standard of evidence that would ever drive you to change your beliefs? I'm sorry? is there like an evidence? some people can you know speculate on evidence right it's like oh I'll believe in Jesus if he appears right now type thing well so my beliefs have changed I was a Catholic and then I found that I didn't believe that anymore and then I found out that I didn't believe that anymore that was a stone for me to discover that I didn't actually believe that there are any gods and so when that was a process and I was changing my beliefs I don't believe that I could have changed the direction that I was already going in I mean it's even what's funny is as I was going through this process of like I was oh my god it's almost insane how much I just started like absorbing all this information from all these different sources and I was loving it and some people close to me were actually getting worried they're like will you slow down I'm like I can't you know just whatever is in me that's driving me to do this just is and I'm just I don't have a choice you know I I don't yeah so I don't believe in free will in that aspect so no I don't believe that I can choose to believe something other than whatever it is that I believe because I believe it for whatever reason I believe it because I've actually gotten to that point with my atheism which I consider a lack of belief not a belief system when I got there I found out oh crap I told you this was going to happen was I going with that? it was about free will and your progression into atheism I'm sorry I lost my train of thought completely I'm pregnant it's fine it's just it's always interesting to hear what people think about you were saying that you is not a belief system oh yeah it's it's not a belief system it's really just a lack of belief so whatever like I kind of mentioned before the stream you know whatever balls are rolling are already rolling I just I don't have control over it that helps but I'm curious what did you mean by what evidence what evidence are you talking about I don't know I mean if somebody didn't believe in God and then they saw some evidence that convinced them God was real and then they started believing in God type evidence or they didn't yes but it would require that evidence yes my beliefs would change but that evidence would actually have to happen first and I haven't found any I'm not saying it doesn't exist I'm saying I haven't found any I've talked to a lot of different people this actually my first time talking to a painting in a pantheist I'm excited about this but I haven't found any reason to believe that that there's any reason to call the universe anything other than what it is and when Kay was talking a little bit more about kind of what what she felt was real about the life forces in the universe I would just put the word energy on it like the word energy as and like from science I would say that that could be the what it is that you're sensing you know what it is that you're you know it just I guess I think people need God why especially me because it serves as a centralizing supreme ideal so do you think that I need God I think you'd probably be happier if you believed in the same God as I did but I wouldn't want you to do something that didn't feel right for you the same God as you if you said God was the universe and then you would start you know having a wonderful blissful love for the universe and discover all of its intrinsic beauties and be pleased from that well but so I've done that by becoming an atheist and finding out that there isn't this this world so I was basically taught that the world that I live in is basically like a test and it's your job to pass the test so you can get into heaven and so I kind of tried to you know orchestrate it like a game like you know like it was it was very stressful and when I found out you know there were so many people that told me so many different things about what's right and what's wrong and there was just so much cognitive dissonance that was insane I just couldn't handle it and then when I finally after doing like intensive research on listening to many different debates and many different people from many different points of view over many hours and many days I finally came to the conclusion oh my God I don't believe that we're living in a world that is controlled in like that in any way I think there is cause and effect you know it's it just is what I also believe God is the source of cause and effect so I don't really see your but why would you how do you get there because it's an aesthetic preference what does that have to do with reality the reality is that I want to worship the supreme God because you want to worship a God I should believe that that God exists and for myself out of all the gods that I could worship I want to worship the real one so how can so if so if you're saying that I would be happier which I mean you may be right I I think I'm much happier as an atheist I don't think that my happiness level is a legitimate you know gauge of determining what's true I think it's part of it interesting how do you come to that conclusion because truth is connected to reality and the more we can align our will to reality the less we'll be disappointed in the outcome disappointment comes from having an expectation and then the world doesn't rise to your expectation but if you don't have unrealistic expectations i.e. you understand reality well enough not to have unrealistic expectations then you don't get those horrible moments of disappointment and I think that they can really scar you especially when it's a mistake in your own judgment it's like oh my god so my basic premise is like I want to minimize cognitive dissonance but I also want to be right because what will minimize my cognitive dissonance ultimately is being right and that's a personal choice I can't make that choice interesting guys I really want to get William and Kay more involved in the conversation we're already 32 minutes into the open discussion could you guys respond to that last comment that Jennifer made yeah I'm actually go ahead William yeah see for my problem with the world is that I was not a perfect when I realized that I was brought into this planet see the way you know I was born into this planet of classical activity so unless I rectify you know those problems I'm not going to be you know perfect in the world but the rectification in the top possible you know without God and that's the reason I begin to believe see when I say I begin to believe in God it does not mean you know I saved or I have an evidence when I start to believe believe is a psychological process in the brain and if there is a process that should have you know a starting and end point it takes you know a lot of time so during the course of time when I grow in the knowledge of doing you know my brain is exposed to the situation and thereafter only you know the breaking of this heat takes place because I am incapable of developing a contact with an almighty God because of the imperfection that is dwelling in me that is imperative from my predecessor therefore that needs to be removed to remove you know the inherited right that is I call imperfect or unclean or demonic spirit that needs to be removed to remove you know from the brain I have to believe there is no other way because believe happens in the brain believe is not happen in our finger or feet so when I believe you know I am growing in the knowledge of knowing God more and more then I am reaching an end point and that is where you know the breaking of the seal or the condition of the brain that needs to be removed so that you know God because God is a spirit or God is a consciousness or God is a mind you can take bigger of the eighties or saying you know there is no evidence for the spirit and that is the reason you know I am invoking some mind or a consciousness or even a respiratory system so that can be replaced back into the body that goes to the brain and seal again and that is where I come to know God evident and that is where I am you know becoming perfect born again born of God something like that so we need to realize basically you know the way we were born into this planet throw you know simple activities and thereafter we need to believe because we have no other option than to believe so we love to believe and as a result of believe we can come to know who God is all about then we can testify who God is all about even you know physically demonstrate the existence of God that is what you know my point that is what my you know very important point I would like to make to both of you know the fan base as well as you know the eighties so William like because I grew up in the exact same religion that you are currently in I have to ask because this is ultimately the question that I asked that caused me to start distancing myself from Christianity so Christians believe that God is all knowing and has always existed because everything that has ever been and ever will be so with that being said how do you rectify a God creating Adam and Eve and putting them into the garden knowing full well that they were going to go against his will and sin and turn the world upside down and cause every horrible awful thing just every atrocity there is because of humanity's so called sin and then place them on this earth kind of what you know we were talking about earlier with this this test that you have to pass to get into heaven he had to send his son to die so that we could get into heaven how do you rectify worshipping a God that would knowing and willingly create human beings they can worship him knowing that like it's almost like he created us to worship him knowing I'm sorry before you respond William could you turn up your mic just a little bit I'm still getting some messages that you might be a little quiet I'm sorry now you're hearing I can hear you just fine but the chat is still saying that they can't hear you sometimes okay see I mean she's asking a lot I agree see you know when God created everything and finally you know God wanted these people I mean Adam and Eve to multiply through Godly way because of that reason you know God made the humanity in this planet and also God informed about you know a certain thing and that is you know the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if God didn't inform then you can you know ask Allah did God inform them there is a tree and in the fruit you are not supposed to eat that means these humanity this Adam and Eve needs to obey the commandment you know if God didn't inform then you can ask Allah this stuff you know God says you should not eat that means there is some problem you know God having with that tree because God himself handled that tree by keeping it in a particular place therefore God handle the same way you know God's children Adam and Eve needs to handle that's what God expects but God put Adam and Eve in the garden and told them that you know there's this tree and you're not to eat from it but before he even created Adam and Eve and put them in the garden being that you believe that he is an all-knowing being he knew before he did that that Adam and Eve were going to sin therefore cast all of humanity into a never-ending cycle of sin to where he was going to have to sacrifice his own son so that we could be in eternal heaven with him forever so why why worship a deity why worship a God that would knowingly do that why worship a God that would create humanity knowing that they were going to disobey him and throw the entire world for generations upon generations into just horrible suffering okay I agree what you were saying but just think in a different way if Adam and Eve did not you know eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then the world would have gone peacefully with all the trouble that was happening you know that would have never been known to humanity that is also possible yes but I'm just saying I'm not denying that according to the Christian faith that Adam and Eve did go against what God told them to do my problem is that why would I worship a God that would create humanity knowing that we were going to live through absolutely horrible suffering because of something that he could have prevented by just not creating us in the first place it almost seems like God created us knowing that we were going to fall into sin so that we would have to based on his guidelines we would have to spend our entire lives in our entire existence worshiping him and living under a very specific set of guidelines so that he could grant us entrance into his heaven it almost seems incredibly selfish can you turn your volume up at all anymore William can you turn your volume up anymore yeah yeah see there is a problem see you love to understand the basic things now you are hearing hello can you turn your volume up just a little bit more I'm still getting messages in the chat saying that they can't hear you very well now are you hearing now that's better that's definitely louder now I'm a little louder I hope you all are hearing it see God created everything and finally he selected Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil by that you can understand God himself was having some problem previously and that is the reason he made this tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of God and he selected him not to eat from it now what is the problem God was facing different question we can discuss a lot because you know God had some problem at the beginning and keeping in that view only you know God created you know mankind and informing them about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you know love to obey to the part of God so that you know whatever the way God handles things these children also would have handled the things that's it if God had this problem in the beginning why did he take it out on us see that's the problem you know if God there was a problem I just you know elaborate on it because you asked it to a particular report you know God came into a being from you know unfathomable or unimaginable source which is very difficult nowadays you know people are discussing about it you know God created angels to assist him and finally what happens you know one of the angel also receiving you know some sort of desire to become like God from the same source same unimaginable source and that you know angel now begin to think against God and at some point in time you know God appeared God brought this angel to an angel to himself and one of you are not supposed to think against me because I am a supreme power nothing happens without my knowledge it is natural you receive it you know some sort of a thinking against me but you don't develop it because you are a substandard nothing can happen without my knowledge because I am a supreme God this is how you know things began then you know the adversary of God I mean the angel who has become an adversary of God and challenged God challenged to God to you know top of them and that is a reason you know God through the angel out of his presence and immediately become a devil or an adversary you said that God became the devil one second one second let me complete I am sorry I was just trying to clarify I think I misheard you God came into a being from an unimaginable source first he is the first person and secondly after some time secondly you know a desire came to an angel who was created by God so God didn't create you know the devil or God didn't create you know any you know this angel to receive you know the kind of a desire against him this one angel received a concept you know from again you know the unfathomable or unimaginable source as a second and that is the reason you know the Christian used to say you know satan is a substandard he is not a supreme like God and he must have listened to God and listened to God's instruction and behaved but he didn't he rebelled and that is the reason you know he challenged and you know God agreed to that challenge and gave him a time and throw him from his presence and he landed upon this planet and thereafter only you know God creating everything in the world and that is the reason he instruct Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of the great evil if Adam and Eve they didn't eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of the great evil whatever you know nothing would have happened in this planet this planet would have continued as as a heaven as a blissful place so there was a problem happened and which you know opened the flood gate for the devil or the wickedness to happen in this planet because of this reason you know we all are suffering throughout the world is suffering and God is watching it and God is going to set everything in the appropriate times and that's it hello you still got about six minutes left yeah I see this is just like this is just what I struggle with whenever it comes to Christianity and ultimately why I left Christianity like I said at the beginning I'm an omnis so I believe that you know the idea of God from every every different religion and belief system has validity in some way I'm not denying the existence of the Christian God I simply choose not to acknowledge or worship him because personally I think that he's kind of a major douche hi it is only possible let me finish one second it is only possible to prove the existence of God through Judea Christianity otherwise it is impossible to prove the existence of God in any other you know religion or any other argument the reason is that Christianity is not based on the belief system one has to understand this is you know our plan is maybe to the world but I can prove you Christianity is not based on belief if you study you know the Word of Jesus you know just before his ascension he insert his disciples to be witnesses not believers so one can become a witness of God when one can become a witness of God when you know when he go through the process of born of God or born again you know the born again means removal of the inherited spirit from the parent from the predecessors and instead you know the replacement of God's spirit or God's consciousness or God's mind into the human body that goes to the brain and feel again and eventually one can become a witness of God and testify you know the existence of God even physically demonstrate you know the existence of God because born again never dead again born again means he go through the process of death and resurrection in a fraction of time or in two seconds having no gap in it therefore second death have no power over to come so born again eventually become you know a temple of God that cannot be distorted by the Jesus like cancer or a COVID or even even you know bullets and that is the reason you know Jesus said destroy this body I will rebuild in three days the same reality is possible now so God can be witnessed that is only possible in Judea and Christianity therefore God of the fully Bible exists so when you when you witness God do you witness a douche see when I see that for you that is a sincere question I am not being like seriously when you talking about you just witness him and does that make an excuse for him being a douche I tell you I tell you something you know to become a witness of Jesus that God you know that is to receive the God's spirit or a God's mind or a God's consciousness into you know do you receive a douche yes that is not one can you agree that he is a douche see he is something you do you agree that God is a douche because it sounds like you do but I don't think that's what you mean to say see God is a personal being you know is he an asshole your God is not benevolent I think no I'm asking if you think that he's a dick see like I genuinely would like you to answer yes or no if you if you if possible God is a personal being like the human being so is he an asshole that's like a human being yeah he's a human being in the sense you know in Christian doctor you know God is he cruel no not cruel no so he's not cruel he's not cruel okay that is what K I think and correct me if I'm wrong that is what K is trying to convey is that she's saying that she is seeing a cruel being a vicious asshole dick douche but I mean feel in the blank and so when when you see God why do you choose to worship it because that's what she and I actually both see when we when we examine what you're defining as God see the way you have examined is absolutely wrong because you are saying you know belief system you are you are believed sometime you know when you were in a Christian you are a Christian right I was a Catholic which is a Christian yes yeah that is the problem you know you do not understand when you are a Christian who is really a Christian or who is because Jesus didn't ask anybody to believe why you were a belief such a long time you know when you were in a what Jesus didn't ask anybody to believe okay guys we're gonna need to start wrapping it up now um let's just everybody just give a couple of words in short and pithy if I could just ask the panel um do you think it's important that beliefs be plausible you like plausible to find plausible possible I guess validatable yeah I do the point to evidence supporting them verifiable yeah yeah yeah I do so like feel if you feel terrible about the belief in your religion is that an issue that's basically what I'm asking it may be an issue but it doesn't change your belief I was curious about everyone's answers actually for me I don't necessarily believe that you have to have solid proof for everything that you believe some things are our blind faith and I think that that's okay to believe in something that you can't necessarily prove and like I said I think that you should continue challenging your beliefs but if you believe in something that you can't necessarily prove to other people that's okay but what I'm not okay with is you using those beliefs whether you can prove them or not to justify horrible behavior especially on the part of the person that you're supposedly worshiping for me believing as a platform that can lead to the truth or the untruth if you reach the truth then you can testify the truth and if you also reach an untruth that is also you can testify but as far as I have seen it you know believe is simply a platform that leads to truth as far as Christianity is concerned okay well I think let's go ahead and move on to the Q&A guys thank you all for all of your very cordial conversation that was very riveting um let's see what we've got I do have some questions from the chat we do have quite a few no super chats tonight amazing I can't believe it so this is a question from Sahi Luke for Jennifer in light of your beliefs what evidence can you present to show that 10 issues 2x4 ladders tires cars and basketball basketballs are that of deity the idea is that everything on earth is a subset of the deity so the deity is a quantum computer that operates on the principle of gravity it doesn't have much light you can see the evidence for that looking up in the night sky so it's a massive quantum computer and then here on planet earth we have life and those are quantum computers but they're functioning on the basis of not just mass but electromagnetism as well so you're kind of like a little droplet that has the same essential structure as the universe but separated from itself and so how is all that stuff a part of God well everything because God created everything and the God leaves enough room for whatever people flights of fancy half and half to be possible within this domain I hope that answers the question I mean it's like I said it's an aesthetic preference I like it I have no issues believing it and it's been a great platform to develop what I feel are significant scientific discoveries that's all I have to say about it I'm trying to sort of bring importance to the point that it's a necessary condition for the knowledge that I've achieved to believe this way okay question for Jennifer from Evil Piece of Garbage why should someone be a pantheist if we're all going to be reincarnated anyway does anything matter what do pantheists get that everyone else doesn't well that's three questions sorry so let me just sort of parse through that so what you're saying does reincarnation mean life has no meaning I would say it has more meaning because it gives you more time to have more experiences and you're still yourself so people have a lot of questions about things like who am I right and the answer that we get from atheistic science is well you're a mashup of your parents where it's like well yeah clearly I got certain traits in common with my parents but I'm not just a sploshed up mess of random combination of them in my own person and this allows you to understand why you have the parents that you do in a way that actually makes sense because it's all quantum mechanical so it's all to do with principle of magnetism so you chose your parents basically the magnetism of your soul was attracted to your parents because they shared the largest overlap of consciousness with you between them so you're basically picking and choosing to go with what you already have from two people who more or less are the best match for you so it does properly understood and ties people to take a longer view of time which can be very healthy and helpful because you're not so focused on the here and now you're thinking sort of down the line and making things better more stable longer term because you're not just thinking about the good stuff that's going to happen to you in this life but all the possibly hopefully even better stuff that will happen in the future and figuring out exactly what we need to do in this life to ensure that the next life is better it doesn't really give you any reason to be depressed I think people are sometimes hesitant to embrace the belief at first because it's scary to the ego because it's a new way of looking at things and so the ego part of what your ego does is give you a sense of control and when sometimes resented with a new idea you can lose that sense of control so your ego will try to present to you reasons to deny the truth so that you don't have to face the loss of control but once you get past that it's a lot more liberating because you're not sort of plagued with these feelings that were alluded to earlier about a sort of a dread about the Panopticon God there's really none of that it's just about a personal experience a journey inward to learn about the nature of consciousness because it informs how we judge everything okay next question is also for you Jennifer there's a lot of these for you actually we have a super chat so I'm going to read that one next Mark Reed says thanks to all the debaters, hosts and mods thanks so much to Jennifer for stepping up and saving the stream so thank you Mark Reed for the $5 super chat we really appreciate it and the question is from Nikolai Babik I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing these names I'm really sorry guys for Jennifer what is the distinguishing difference between a universe where all is God and a universe where nothing is God you could argue that they're equivalent but then you'd have to back it up with an evidentiary basis you need to be able to point to someone who had that other belief that is really equivalent and then demonstrate that their knowledge was on par with mine which I don't think can be done so that's why I keep coming back it's an aesthetic preference but it's an aesthetic preference that has been determined through science not me the ancient science so I'm just going with what they said but if you prefer to look at it as the universe you can but you're probably not going to have as good of a time because we sort of have this innate drive towards religion because religion is really the first thing that separated us from animals and it's ingrained into the fabric of society to a very deep degree that I think we would do well to acknowledge thank you so much and another one from Nikolai this one is for K what prescriptions restrictions and requirements does your paganism enforce on your life not much really and honestly that was kind of the initial draw for me to paganism having grown up in a religion that was so incredibly strict and dictated everything about my life and my existence paganism truly there seems to be like a misunderstanding in chat about what paganism is paganism really is just the belief that all of nature is sacred and natural cycles that all life goes through are spiritual and meaning I tell people all the time I'm pagan which really just means that I really really like rocks and plants it doesn't it doesn't hinder me living my life the way that I want to I just see life as important and sacred and I try to live my life that lens I like to watch things grow whenever things die whether it's naturally or by the actions of other beings like I find that sad like even whenever my plant dies I find that incredibly sad but paganism is not a restricting belief system there is the freedom for you to exist the way that you want to exist as long as you are not harming particularly other humans gotcha thank you so much another question for K from Sahih Luke Christianity has a plethora of extant historical attestation e.g. evidence for the crucifixion is virtually unanimous can you name one pagan religion with more extant evidence the fact that there is historical evidence for the crucifixion doesn't prove anything about Christianity all it proves is that a guy came claimed to be the son of God and was killed for it doesn't prove that everything within the Christian faith or the existence of God himself like I said earlier there is a lot of things that in my belief system I do take on blind faith I choose to believe that there is something after death I don't want to believe that we just die we go into the ground and that's it do I know exactly what that looks like or who is in charge of it no as I've said multiple times I do believe in the existence of the Christian God I just choose not to worship him because even if everything in the bible is true I find that God would be an enormous douchebag and if that sends me into the fiery pits of hell it would have been worth it because he is not deserving of my worship gotcha we have gotten a $10 super chat from best in show for UK he says I am an atheist but I want to believe but have not found good reason to believe yet in your religion do you live forever or die and what is your channel I did just post my link in chat a few minutes ago I can post that again if you guys need to but you can pretty much find me anywhere with just my name at kfellowswithaz that's pretty much where I am on any social media platform including youtube in my belief system of course there is natural human death but I do want to believe that there is something after death I don't want to believe that once you die that's it and that's the end while that is an incredibly complex idea and I don't know exactly all of the ins and outs of it or who would be in charge of what is after natural human death I simply take that on blind faith and it does give me comfort thinking that once I die there is something else beyond that gotcha we have a question for Jennifer from Sahiluk in light of your beliefs the universe is a manifestation of God what is your evidence that inanimate things mountains and trees are deity or have emotions intellect slash will well that's a bit of a mischaracterization of what I was saying the universe is not a manifestation of God the universe is God and then what happens in the universe those things are the manifestations of God can you just repeat the last bit of the question what is your evidence that inanimate things parentheses mountains or trees are deity or have emotions slash intellect slash will okay well my world view doesn't imply that it implies a single deity which is the universe and everything else would be a subset of it so I'm not really sure how to answer that because that's not what the position really is sorry no problem gotcha we have a sorry not a super chat but a question for William from Rolling Rock William do you believe in free will if yes how do you justify it being incompatible with the definition of the Christian God basically you know I'm not believing I'm not believing a free will free will came into a being once you know Adam and Eve disobeyed the commandment of God but initially there was no free will initially there was an instruction that should be followed and now after fall when I am living in this planet I have a free will that free will you know I'm choosing from you know from the description of the Word of God so still I'm having a free will I can show I can reject I can do anything yeah gotcha and our last question on the list right now 4k from Saheluk 99% of all scholars affirm the historical Jesus and the crucifixion is a historical fact and there is a plethora of more extent evidence is there I think I actually already asked this question actually you know we did get a super chat from Endo XD k can someone take a position on faith and be wrong why use faith if you had a ruler that sometimes measured correctly you throw if you had a ruler that sometimes measured correctly you throw it out um yes of course that you can take a position on blind faith and be wrong because whenever you take something purely on faith there's no way of knowing whether you're right or wrong for me choosing to believe that you know in the things that I can't prove life after death or the existence of beings that are superior to us as human beings like superior deities the thing that holds me to whether or not it's okay to believe things that you cannot prove is whether or not that belief harms anyone and for me with my beliefs opposed to many many religious beliefs they don't hurt anyone and they don't perpetuate toxic or dangerous ideologies so if you're taking something on faith whether or not you're right or wrong as long as you're not doing harm to others with your beliefs and I think that it's perfectly okay to have those beliefs gotcha thank you for that we got a five euro super chat from pancake of destiny there is only one true god the god of blondes fall from the sky prove me wrong great job Jenna if you want to respond to that Jenna that was funny thank you okay that seems to be all of our questions I want to say thank you again to all of our speakers to Jenna to Kay thank you thank you to Jennifer and thank you William thank you to praise for producing and we apologize to our viewers for all of our technical issues once again remember if you enjoyed these debates please don't forget to subscribe and like and share and all that good stuff of all of our speakers are linked in the description and please check them out if you like what you heard tonight I believe that's it there's an after show on my channel if anyone wants to check it out thank you so much yes that should be linked and if it's not I also did put it in the chat at one point you know what I think I'll just go in and try to put it in there one more time before we go yeah thank you for hosting and thank you panelists thank you so much if you guys want to say goodbye real quick go ahead yeah thank you so much for inviting me to do this this is tons of fun I'm so glad that I got to listen to each of you and get to know your perspectives there are so many more questions that I have for each of you and so if either of you are willing to engage further I'm happy to we can work it out later I just want to let you know yeah absolutely I'm more than willing to have these long drawn out conversations about religion and just different beliefs and everything so yeah feel free to reach out to me whenever yeah it was great to meet everybody so much for your attention the audience mods channel owner and other debaters it was great to meet everybody okay thank you all and once again keep switching out the reasonable from the unreasonable have a great night everybody bye bye