 You are listening live to the web stream of Morning Session of Fresh Circus Trada Network. And I can see Katie Kearzy was waiting for the panelist to join her. There will be one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. And now they are settled with some water as you can listen to. We wanted to talk with Fabienne Brugère, but we didn't have time. Maybe we'll join her later on. You remember, she said, big awful about the care. She also asked for new institutions, like Fresh could be a new institution for care. So I mentioned the Stick the German with this book, The Desire de Consolation. She talks about the need, this desire of care. I think Emily is here. And Emily is here. So Morning Session Roundtable, like screaming. Emily is Emily Bustel with a yellow t-shirt. Okay, good morning. My name is Katie. I'm going to be facilitating this roundtable with these six lovely people here. And thank you to Circus Trada for the invitation. I'm very happy to be here. So I'm just going to go ahead and start. A little introduction before we start today. So about a month ago, I was starting to prepare to host this panel and I decided to take a quick look on the web page that Circus Trada created for this conference. And in the pre-program for this morning sessions, I saw a very interesting question, which, by the way, doesn't come from me. And the question which comes from the Circus Trada team is this. Can I have the next slide, please? I don't have my, there we go. This is the question. How to establish a reliable relationship and avoid the power relationship usually induced between the programming curator and the artist? And this question, it really made me think, you know, I thought are reliable relationships those in which interpersonal or inter-organizational power dynamics avoided? So as I was kind of mentally chewing on this question, I read a passage in a book called Mating Captivity, which was written by Esther Perrell. Now, Esther Perrell, for those of you who don't know, is a world-renowned psychotherapist with an international background who specializes in intercultural relationships. Next slide, please. In her book, she writes that, the ideal partnership is said to be one of absolute equality in every area of the relationship. Many of us steeped in an ideology of fairness and mutuality want nothing less. But the fact is that negotiating power is part of all human relationships. Power imbalances are inescapable. So, we are here today to talk about care, but that discussion takes place in a context. Now, our context today, the international professional contemporary circus and outdoor arts sector is multifaceted and complex. And so, in discussing with the team at Circus Strada, and in reading the question which you saw up here, I understand that that context includes the unequal distribution of power between different actors. But if Esther Perrell is right, those power discrepancies can never be solved once and for all. They can only be managed. My hunch is that care cannot help us fix power differentials, but rather they could provide us with a framework, a set of values and related actions, if you will, that helps us navigate our relationships, even those at work. Before I give the floor to the group gathered here today, because I know we're here primarily to hear them and not me, I'd just like to clarify what we're going to try and do for the next hour and a half or so. Together, the seven of us had a pre-panel meeting and it turned out that no one felt that they were some kind of expert on care, which is just fine. So, what I propose to the group and what they bravely accepted is that we're going to try and have a discussion that hopefully is going to feel like an experience of thinking out loud together in this moment about what care could look like and mean for this sector specifically. Now, that's a very vulnerable thing to do in front of your peers, especially when you're speaking in your second or your third language, which I believe all of you will be. So, I would just like to acknowledge how courageous that is and to say thank you for doing that and to ask all of you listening to do so with some patience and goodwill. In French, you would say bienvenu. And now, it's my great pleasure to give the floor to our six panelists. Could you each please stand up while I introduce you? Then everyone knows who you are. First, we have Kuhn. Kuhn currently works as the co-coordinator of Dance Punt in Ghent, which supports the dance scene in Flanders. Did I get it right? That's right. Thank you so much. The other co-coordinator is also Kuhn. Also Kuhn, okay. Double Kuhn. Double Kuhn. Thank you so much. We also have Emily and Marie. You can sit down. Which is Emily? Emily is yellow. Okay, and Marie is green. Okay. Emily and Marie are the co-founders and the co-directors of Sof de Dimanche in Montpellier and Paris, a dance company specializing in site-specific performance. You get it right? Wonderful. Then we have Sebastian. Sebastian is the director general of Espacio Checoslovakia in Santiago, a residency center for artistic development and production with strong ties to the working class neighborhood where it's based. And Sebastian also has a background as a professional performer. Thank you. Thank you. Next we have Anna. Anna is the artistic director of Fira Terega in Terega, an organization supporting the performing arts in Catalonia with a focus on street art and public space. Wonderful. Thank you, Anna. And finally we have Lucho. Lucho is the new artistic director of Festival Cioccolò in Tilburg, which is the largest circus festival in the Netherlands. Lucho also has an extensive background as a circus artist and a performer and co-founded the company Calapia Cirque, which some of you might know. Did I get right? Thank you so much, Lucho. Okay. Let's dive into our panel. You guys already know this. The cell doesn't know it. I'd like to ask each of you just quickly as a way to kind of open up the panel and also to underline the fact that we're a very international group today. How you would translate the word care into your native language or one of the other non-English languages that you speak. The reason I want to start with this, it's not a question of getting it perfectly right. It's really your unique creative personal choice about the way that you translate care. And just to kind of share that word with us, you picked it. And what kind of associations does that word hold for you? So when I say associations, I mean things like images, qualities, actions, colors, things like this. I happen to speak French as well as English. No other languages, unfortunately. And Fabienne, I think, was translating care in a few different ways, soins, bienveillance, and things like this. Those are all excellent choices, of course. For me, they don't always capture everything about what I understand when I hear the term care in English. So I'm just interested to hear about what is captured, what is lost, what is added when we bring in other languages and trends. And we see care through the vision of multilingualism. So who to pick to start? Anna. Yes. Please give us your answer. Good morning, and thanks for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here. And it's impressive to be in front of all of you. So care in Catalan, which is my mother language and also in Spanish, means take care of something or take care of a person. What's the word? Cura. Cura. Cura. It's quite similar. Cura. Cura. Cura. And it also could be when you're doing something very, very precise and you want to do it very well, you have to take care of doing that very well. And then there is another exception, definition, which means take care when the body is injured. So that means take care of the body in terms of physicality, more or less. Thank you so much. Emily. So I'm going to speak in French. I'll give my own personal definition. I translate care as considering the whole situation so as to respect everybody's place and person. Your personal definition. What are the feelings or associations or images that might come when you're developing this personal definition of care in your language? The images, the colors, the actions, the moments of life that sometimes are linked with this personal definition of care? For me, it's the notion that you were talking about earlier. You're speaking about taking into consideration the discrepancies of power relations saying that these discrepancies in power still existed. When you're dancing and trying to find the balance, you always try to find the lack of balance. You know, if you put yourself on one foot, you always are to try to find in your body where exactly you can find new balance. It has nothing to do with being rooted. It has to do with a permanent search. How would you translate care into one of your languages? What's the word or the phrase for you? That's the language. It's a bit like Klingon, like the language of Star Trek. It's like that. It's very inclusive. One of the main issues of care for me is in the keynote, it's the word empathy. It's so important to talk about care that we have lots of empathy in our relationship with artists, with public with, for me, that's one of the most important angles to talk about care. I'm very glad, I think it's the first time in my career, and I'm an old fox, that we're also talking about power because we're all, it's a bit awkward to talk about power, but we're all powerful in one way or another, and we have to have lots of empathy to develop care without power. Thank you so much, Lucio. Yes, Kun already had a beautiful introduction. My mother tongue is Dutch as well, so Zorg. Zorg. Which literally translates as care, and maybe this has more to do with my background, but the first things that come up, Zorg, is how much it costs to take care of our elderly and our sick, the people that are on strike because they demand better pay and better recognition, this is generally what Zorg is about in Holland. In this context, in our context, I would think and I would like to go more towards what Kun and also Fabienne said in her keynote, this collective responsibility, this image of the hive where all these bees in this ecosystem, they make things together, and they are all responsible for making things happen. And Kering, it's a shared responsibility. I would quickly like to react also to the citation that you had in your introduction, that these power relations are dynamics, that they are inherent to human relationships, that we cannot escape them. Maybe it's a question we can ask, should we therefore embrace them? Just a provocative question. Yeah, I didn't necessarily intend to have it, but because it's a question that Circo Strada had and I thought it was important not to ignore the question of power and power relations, and I thought it was interesting to take this specific doorway into care as being somehow a way of navigating power in a way that sometimes can feel as someone said awkward or uncomfortable to talk about. Sebastian. Hi everyone. I really thank you to be here for the invitation. I'm a little nervous, you can see. I'm from Chile and I have to say sorry for my English. I'm coming from public education and this is the result. Yeah, about care. In Spanish, I think it's the word, but in English you could be careful too. I will invent now a little bit. Care for me sounds very similar to CORE, but I don't know it's a Latin word, but CORE is a corazón. I think it's about love, it's about empathy too. It's a really big word, but I think I can explain me with one example better. I am a father, two kids, six and three years old, and I think I take care of them all the time, but not in the patriarchal way. I think it's to be attentive how they are, if they need something, if they change the personality in some second. I think it's about to give the power, to give independence, autonomy. I don't know, I think it's basically being with them, close to them and attend what is happening. I think that is going to be my definition. Thank you so much. Kun, I believe you have a little something to add. I like to react to be a father and have a bunch of kids. It's also important to say no in a clear way, and that's also care, to say no, you don't get my car. Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, of course, it's more difficult to reach here, of course. In that way, when you give the power, when you give independence, you see something that you don't want to see. It's difficult to have care with ourselves first, and after that with others. Thank you so much, and thank you for bringing in this idea of family and children, because I think that a lot of people who are really thinking about care and articulating what it can be are often talking about the roles, intergenerational relationships, so thank you for that. Marie, it's your turn. I think in French I choose the words, attention and consideration. I like this word, consideration in French, because I think it makes me think about an attitude to get in relation with an environmental person and even an autistic object. I think consideration sort of obliges me to think that care demands time, and maybe it would be interesting to actually speak about the necessity of patience and time in your relationship with things and people in general, before having this sort of reflex we may have that it is reassuring to get in touch or get in a relationship with somebody once we know where we are, and I think we have to be more careful in order to give more room to our intuition to be more curious and less knowing maybe. I don't know about you, I noted about 50 words here, so that's a lot of material. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge and your language and your personal definition. I wanted to center today's discussion around three big questions, which I hope we'll have the time to get to all of them. The first one I want us to try and approach is what forms of care is appropriate to expect to give or receive in the context of professional arts, practice, community, working life, et cetera. I'd like to start with a bit of a flip, because I think that when we think about the flow of care, it's probably more typical to think about artists' need care and support organizations, residencies, theaters, venues, festivals, but what are the benefits that they might have we are giving care? I want to switch it a bit and first ask the people here who have a role as a curator, how can we make the idea of care a few more ways straight, do you have the feeling How does this question land for you basically and I feel you having a reaction so maybe you would like to start No, I said wow because In my position, I'm always the one who try to ask them How are you? What are you needs in terms of of of creation? But maybe I don't give them a space to ask What do we need sometimes these? Feedbacks we get it from after the festival when we send them some some questions about well Could we be better in terms of accommodation or in terms of you know? Fees or whatever But in terms of creation sometimes we we didn't ask so did acly but that Brings me to talk about To have time To listen them for me. I'm coming from a family. We are a botchers and You know when you're going to a botch you you need time I mean it's not like picking up puppies of of of chicken and go away So you you need time on my on my dad on my mom. They're always asking them How are you today? How is it going? How is your family and they have a seed they have My dad sometimes sings a song, you know, it's like a good atmosphere And I grew up indeed in this atmosphere when I have the need always to ask To the professor of the people. How are you? How are you feeling today and in in firat Arga? Which is the organization I'm working with? Every single morning I try to go with our team to have a coffee and for me This is a very special moment This is a very special moment to ask to our team. How are you today? Do you need something? Because in terms of care if I really want of if we really want to take care of our Artists or the artist we want to present in the next edition First of all, I think that we have to take care of the colleagues. We are working with and it's a simple thing It's just have a coffee with them and sometimes we talk about silly things and sometimes you realize that my colleague Maybe he doesn't feel good and maybe it's something related with this family wherever But it's probably important to to give them time To talk and to listen We always are talking talking and talking, but it's when I'm learning the most is when I'm Having a seat I shut up and I listen from them So I think that we should have more time in terms or having a seat and Exchange in terms of how you feel how much you need how can I help you? Do you think I can help you or maybe it's not myself? But maybe a lucha can help them. So we need have we need time to talk and And half time but somebody told me we never have time. We never have time And another friend told me no, you're wrong time is the only thing we have we just have time But we don't know when that time will ends. It's our responsibility to decide if we Distribute this time with our colleagues with our artists with our family, which is more It's also more important. So communication and spend time with the artists with the distributors With the creators with the other programmers in order to know how are they how the feeling how can improve these conditions or Hello, there we go I don't know if cool and Sebastian lucha. You have something that you would like to add again the question here is a As a represent as a curator as a representative of an organization Do you feel like you can or could expect an artist or company to care for you and for the Organization that you represent lucha. I feel like you grab the mic. So please have at it. I was not exactly going to talk to this point That's fine, but I do feel that there is something in the relationship and in care That can be massively improved And I'm talking now from my experience as a maker Is that When you ask for an opportunity or You ask for a grant to perform somewhere or just for feedback It is very difficult to be honest in these kind of Exchanges because you're talking about something that's can be sensitive and I think just honesty and being able to talk about an Object on artistic creation a work Honestly Would help and would improve massively the kind of relation Makers and curators could have It's something I've Always tried to do as a maker with my peers now that I Also get questions. Hey, I would like to perform in your festival, which you may become to see the work or what did you think of the work I Try to keep this up, but I feel also that in the position I am in Somehow I have to be more careful about how I say things or put things Yeah Which Is too bad. I think I would actually like to ask koon to bounce off on this because A bit this question came up in our pre-meeting This like grain of sands or something like this in the relationship of like Wanting to be honest, maybe not wanting to hurt feelings, which is which is worse How do we deal with uncomfortable opinions things like this? So koon, please take the floor Really agree what you said No, I really agree what you said which oh, but it's so important that we as curators or directors of coordinators Are very clear and That we're good in clear communication For example and the French are top in it to avoid Direct communication I was at the premiere and And then the French are talking To each other and to other colleagues like me. Oh It was quite interesting His show, but I couldn't enter his universe and And the artist is not programmed. It's better to say very clear To the artist. No, it didn't work for me for bad that and that reason It's not a joke. It's really not a joke. I have still ideas to develop Festivals and things Like that and I want to develop a festival of the last shows Because it's always a party and I was an artist. I was talking to artists about it. I was an artist who was telling me Do you agree to organize a festival of the bad shows I Thought it was a joke, but it wasn't a joke He said it's so important for us because our aim isn't to creation and Then we are not programmed and we want to talk about it. We want to share Why are we not programmed that for other artists? It's also important to know why the show doesn't work. I Can not imagine that I'm the coordinator of such a festival. Oh, I didn't like your show. You're welcome It's so important But it's so important to to be clear in our communication also I'm working a lot with emerging artists and that's the other direction. It's so important also that they dare to to say what they need and They're emerging artists that they're kind of They I'm my mother said always even the king when he's going to the toilet. He has to clean his butt And that's what I try to give to the emerging artists. I'm just a person like them. So ask Clearly what you need and then we as an organization are gonna look at it if it fits So you have really Work on our communication in both directions I'd like to bring mahi and emily into the conversation because You're both working as artists and running a company and I don't want to insist too much on this question but I think it's just an interesting way to approach it, maybe I'm not correct, but Maybe just do you feel like you have some kind of responsibility or desire or question about you as an artist can care for a Thunder Residency program a program or a support organization of any kind Or do you really feel like the the flow is always supposed to be that the care comes to you as an artist across this divide again this question of power differential power relationships between artists artist accompanies and Programming or other kinds of support organization so And then when you have a question It can't be different in reality we just we never talk about it unnamed in this sector It's a blind spot Emily and I have kind of specific unique projects which are performed in non-stage Sites, but I'm not exactly public spaces. We do work there, too But not only and all of those creations require a form of discussion and partnership with the programmer Obviously we're often In a conventional relationship with either you buy my show Or you don't and you take it where you want to and a lot with our projects these relationships Require in our projects. We need more discussion and we've become obsessed with that. So Emily and I We've been working between years now of that company and these phones Really pushed us to try and think About it. I didn't really Named it as taking care of one another, but at least together to ask Where the interest of both parties is and how could these two circles of Interests to how can they overlap and we're in this work how can we overlap in this place in this show It's not the same even with the same show That the overlap won't be the same depending on where it's performed the audience is the uniqueness of each partner and Also what Lucho was saying in Kern Kuhn was saying It's a bit of an anecdote, but it seems it seems symbolic of what we're talking about where A friend who's the director of a theater in Brittany who said recently at the end of a show The artist came and asked what she thought of it and she said Do you do you want to know if what I thought of it or if I'll buy it and I went like oh my god, you didn't say that They didn't say that and yes, she did And she said the interesting thing what you're talking about is that if you ask my opinion I Start working with you and I'll try be in a communication which Even if she's French and start to go around it To try to work together in a discussion so we can say things that you can bear to hear as well You have to be able to hear What people say to you when you ask them that kind of question and if the subject is really to know whether I'm going to buy the show or Not the answer is different So this clarity is important. It's not easy for an artist, but it is an exercise It's interesting to do to be clear in what question. We're really asking and what answer You want and that can change depending on the moment I also feel like It should go both ways And even before you program something Companies have a lot of responsibility to take care of going to see Partners potential partners and going to get information to make sure they see the right people Because we've got newsletters and Lots of means of communication that that are out there to invite programmers to come to see our work, but We're kind of shooting out brought making a broad of throwing a broad net and maybe it's not a Service to our relationship because We aim for the wrong people Spray and pray When you when you spray your invitation very large and you pray someone will answer you basically, um, I want to maybe Have one follow-up question to I guess eminine Marie, which is Do you think that your way of working this approach to mostly be outside of traditional venues and spaces do you think that that Gives you a different perspective or approach or Necessity of having these conversations that someone who is in maybe in a more traditional way of Making a performance product to be bought by a venue is maybe like is do you think that you suspect or know that? There's a difference in the way that you're working outside of traditional venues versus a more traditional curator Relationship that happens in a more traditional relationship of a product performance and the venue Oh, I think it's very different because when we get to a place nobody's expecting us to be there In the That we're often in places where people have never seen a show performed there before And in particular a contemporary dance performance There's an approach Like a cat we kind of come a bit creep in a little softly Maybe a little bit more Now we look at each other And then we start talking But all that time We must take it all the time in the places we go to it's very delicate As a process and it's never Something we can take for granted I would just say that Preparation discussion we had made me realize that because it's part of our Artistic Work that's choreographically what we're working on that has overflowed into all parts of our work and it's created something Which is a different way of dancing with the partners the spaces the audiences And with our own teams Sebastian I'm going to ask you if you have a perspective you'd like to share this question You know what kind what forms of care is it appropriate to expect to give a receive In a relationship between our system carrier company and support organization and how can this be a two-way streets? So please the floor is your Well, I think it's super important to have a really good and honestly communication It's important to have not only one channel to have a communication To have a different challenge Formal not formal channel to I think For us when I talk about us I took up for me and my team for us It's really important To create one ecosystem yeah where Everyone is important there and everyone feel They're self important there Yeah, and For example, I will do I will say some examples a For example for us and I were created a center If it's an artist go inside to to work in to the in the center if they Look at the neighbors working in the garden and talking with with the with our team Asking them and start to to to feel part or something and Feel part important to something. I think everyone here The human spaces we need to feel part or something more today It's super difficult to have a life alone without Some objectives without some human things I think in my opinion and it's really important Go together and go like a society not Myself not going only myself or ourselves with my small group. I Think it's important to be really open really sensitive It's important to hear than other people listening to another people take time to listen It's important to listen to the old people. I think the old people have many things to say I Remember to my grandmother to one woman with a lot of care Because I think she understood the life And I think the life is about that it's about to to create trust and trust each other and Then we can see in front like a equal like a similar like a Important guys important people and in that kind of a scenario context We can start to talk we can start to work and create that is so important That's for you old people. What's the age? Good question To honest be honest 70 or more 75 80 all people all people Yeah, I am old too. Thank you so much for showing this example I'd like to move on and I mean What you have mentioned today are things that you Think are you know, maybe missing a little bit or time or a sense that we have enough time Honesty clear communication the time to really hear and listen to each other a sense of belonging a sense of trust And so I'd like to maybe dig a level underneath and say what is what is keeping us From having these things or what is keeping us from perceiving that we have these things So what are the barriers? You know, like what is one or two maximum key elements that you feel like you're chronically missing in your professional life That would really allow you to demonstrate care in the way that you want In your professional life, especially across this supposed divide between artists and curator or Company and support organization like what's keeping you from being able to act care in the way that you want to or Or if it doesn't work for you to receive care in this way. I see Lucia having a response. So please take the floor. I Would say the two things that we imagine always keep us from doing this is time and money always We never have enough time and we never have enough money, but then that's just in our heads I would say that if there is something keeping me From being able to care and invest in The relation that I have with colleagues and with others It slipped my mind I'm gonna have to get back to you on this one It I went I went there and then I couldn't get back to Speaking and I do you want to go ahead? Please can go and then you you think about it Yeah, I think that we need time In our in our case I'm the artistic director of our organization and I'm the first woman leading artistic department since 40 years And it's the first time that the team At some point had to realize that I was pregnant So it was the first time that my team recalls all you know all the artistic decisions and I was on maternity leave and Indeed they did it very well, but it was a first a step and That takes time when you get into our organization that that that you want to To change a step by a step of course you did money But then you also need time because the things are changing one day from the other day So it takes time in yesterday We had a fabulous dinner with some colleagues and I told them I don't know why they asked me to talk about care What I could say I'm and they were why not you but like I was nearly shocked and and and they told me the way that now The team is listen and I'm back again with the communication and listen the way that now the team is listen The proper team the team is listen the artist the team is listening that sector It's changed since Since it goes in the past slowly slowly because it takes time so for me Money on the one side of course and then time Money why because the artist? Still in Catalonia on the street arts are there still on precarity, so they need the stability So how we as organization how we as a director that now I have kind of power to improve things how can we and improve the conditions of the artists who are Working on street arts and for me is having time to listen them to to listen what art they needs and Trying on the other side to improve the towing to give them more opportunities and be very clear on the criteria of selection and Is I think that is our duty when we don't select a show and the artist is asking us Why you don't select our show for me is that is an ethic To explain them in a good way. That's the criteria That's why we are not Supporting the show and then you can you can also explain all the things on propose to go all up or all the venues Or wherever it for me. It's our duty To be honest with them and with yourself and in give them information So this change for a place where is a market where we are doing is to put Shows on the platform in order to be seen for a lot of programmers since ten years now. We are developing artistic exchange program Where the artists are teaching us how to be better these two ladies here I'll remember they are part of in situ and they came up to us and We want to make something we want to make something with a catalan company because we have something Similar the other company was electrical 28. They were on the theater feel and they are on the on the dance feel and They proposed to make an explore residency We are a market our goal is to present and chose But they were proposing us an explore residency with a no-ending show just Showing Methodologies and showing knowledge. So they were teaching us how to be better How to be honest how to accompany better the artists? So we need time And we need of course money and now we think that Lucho already remember the idea I Would gladly give it a word to someone else because I feel we're monopolizing the space here if you if you have remembered What I wanted to say is that what is really Keeping us from Investing in the care or having the right care towards our colleagues is that It's not so much time and money it is That we always end up playing the role that is projected upon us In some kind of way It's maybe a bit strange to understand this Can you give an example yes, I can give an example this is This is many years back. We had a residency in a psychiatric hospital and It's big institution maybe 2000 patients a very very big institution and It was a three-month residency and the afternoons we ate together with the team in the in the cafeteria and It's October it's a bit cold. I'm outside the main building. I'm you know, I'm a bit like this I forgot my sweater in the caravan and there's a little family that comes out of the main building Mother or father and a little girl and the little girl. She's far away. There are 30 meters away. She starts pointing at me and I thought oh they must think I am I'm I'm a patient here and Whatever I did I could not get away from the image that was on me and whatever I did you can stop you can move away You can walk it gets worse You end up playing the role that is projected upon you. Okay, this is an extreme example But it happens, okay, he's an artist so in In some kind of social context, whatever you say they're going to think you're funny or they're going to say oh, that's interesting or And and this is what you end up doing and also as a curator. Okay. He's a curator He's going to have the power to say yes or no and in the address or in the perception There is something and maybe this is why these power relations in the citation you showed earlier are inevitable Maybe this is why because we end up Playing the role that is projected upon us in my opinion I think I think you what I'm hearing you say is that we internalize certain imagined or real aspects of of our role and we Instead of consciously choosing to take them on we we feel a bit imprisoned by this somehow What about the four of you over here anyone want to talk about this idea of what's keeping us from caring or receiving care In this sector the way that you want to what's the barriers? I Think personally sometimes a lack of courage I Have a personal it's it's hard to And when you're working with emerging artists, it's hard to say no, it's hard to say no because your ideas your Try out don't work and it's It hurts me myself to say to them and sometimes I'm also a bit slippery talking to Like so for me personally, it's it's also to develop a kind of courage and and I think in the Netherlands they developed this art and That's a mythology to communicate between the public and the artists and maybe Circus the other can organize once a workshop about the mythology About how we professionals can communicate with artists and in the other way Sebastian I I Want to say something important for for us. I think We we have a we have a program different problem I think many people here have the same problem residence Production production and I think the important is not what we're doing The important the most important is how how we do it. This is the most important For example, you can say no to something But it's the really important how you say no you can say no Don't answer where they email for example It's some way to say no, but if you have a meeting with the guy and you start to listen the The The things and after that you say why you you think no is the best option now Now today, maybe not tomorrow. Maybe next year The people can understand you better. It's really important How we can say no and and another thing It's important to I think We can have a care with our artist with our team But for me it's super difficult to have care on the office and then on the street. No, don't have to care I think it's really difficult But if you want to be like that you have to be care all day every week all day on the week It's difficult to change the the switch on the street be like Nothing is happening and you come into the office and you are really open really I Think you have to be consequence with yourself And this is I think it's important Emily and Maria do you have something to add to this idea of What might be keeping you from receiving or giving care like what's the barriers again? What's this? What's what's the blocks? Courage is probably an element there and then I thought tools also It kind of goes over the idea of time in a certain way I Really feel like I belong to a generation When the alternative Experienced there are tools for everything everywhere, but I can't Embrace the whole or to make it the leap out of my Strict field so I kind of lacking time In defense, I can't get out of beyond the rails of the sectors of culture Now I'm in there's no meaning today Saying to being alone in life that even even alone in whatever you're doing just yourself We can't you cool. There's no meaning today to try to be all alone. So then you get the question of means Can you Include in a dance production Can you budgetize? artistic moments, but like times for Looking for spaces that would nourish the tools in the term of taking care of our imagination as Philosophers it early and then taking care of our teams. How can you incorporate that into like a residency? In fact Very complex questions very and I We really take to care about teams, but we quickly get caught up very often by Exterior Problems to do with budgets and finances and decisions The company based on the more general company-based questions for the longer term and sometimes we trip over and we announce Things things to dancers that we shouldn't if it's the wrong time to announce it and we create some imbalance and throws everyone off and We're not always kind of navigating All the time and trying to readjust all the time I feel that in our relationship with programming the same with curators the relationship cannot It's not fixed. It's not Can't give the role and the role we can't separate the roles programmer artists and separate them completely. I feel like We need Before Once you have Once the relationship, well, we know Anna for example, we've met already It's easier to take care at that point but before that before you meet a curator I sent an email first email and I wait an answer an answer Do I nudge them or do I do this or did that? That gets a bit tough There are people That I've been waiting. There's a people. I've been waiting to get an appointment with fruit 18 months people who are not far from me Not the other end of the world people who are close by And I'm waiting Tell me why it's not a minister. I'm talking to her a year a year and a half is a long time to wait To meet with someone, but it's very disembalanced. I keep going Waiting and keep so waiting painfully for this Appointment and painfully. I'm not receiving an answer. I find that difficult Thank you all for sharing that. How you guys doing in the audience? We're good. Not too tired We've got about 20 minutes left. I hope that we can hold your attention This is kind of the last Terrain that I want us to go to this morning and it's the topic of gender Because I don't think that we can talk about care without talking about the fact that Traditionally, it's a word that holds very different implications for men and for women or for people who don't identify with either of those words and I suppose that one of the things that I personally worry about is this possibility of the less glamorous or more tedious or less visible aspects of care sort of being shunted Unofficially mostly to women Without them being recognized or compensated in some way for this labor So I guess my question is how do we make sure it's not the same group of people that are getting Uniquely burdened over and over again with the majority of caring responsibilities I see Marie as maybe having a reaction to this I have a lot of a lot of thoughts come to my mind. I might be a bit confused, but I'll try to be brief and Work my way through it I first of all thought I started thinking We shouldn't ask this question if we don't As a personal and professional Point of view, I can't do what I'm about to say But I would like to sidestep This issue and ignore the possibility that it wouldn't be shared as a woman if I can just pretend That the possibility of me having to take on that charge by myself Then I'll be inducing a different reaction a different reality I don't I prefer not to even consider that it's a possibility that all of that responsibility could follow me as a woman unjustly How do you feel about this like how do we make sure it's not just Women or another sort of marginalized group of people be it it could be women. It could also be sort of the the lowest Status lowest paid people in organizations that are doing this work. That's just the question I have you know, it's a question Very important very important question when you started asking that question. I wanted in our case with a company Be if to prove to minds and to women We're called if we've called our company software Dimash, which means and except for Sunday. We We said could we Do this job This being this profession by leaving the possibility in our lives To move and as women when we're 20 when we met And after five years we've mounted our company and then we have to leave a possibility for having children For our lives to change a situation to change even geographically change And I promise that we made to one another and that we have respected and it's the base for everything is that Leave the possibility for the other one to experience and live what she needs to go through Emily has three children. I have two It's a sport. It's very very Extra it's a lot as I as I said at the beginning on the first woman directing the fit a target and to be honest and I didn't feel like prepare to assume at that moment To be the artistic director my background is not from the arts is from the economics And I have a lot of fragilities day after day even now in But now it comes to my mind a thing is like I didn't have a woman referring for me in terms of a street art, so Why not why? Why I don't try to write a project and try to direct organization Not on my home definitely. I have a brilliant team But we can try and after five years I've been learning a lot from you from them from the artist and is it possible is it possible but it is hard because as I said also I had a baby and Fabienne say that the lecture we have to take care of our self and We have to put the person on the middle in terms of care How can you manage that when it's the first time that you are leading? and a market and in and you have just four years of five years and Everybody's asking and everybody's pushing and everybody's demanding of you. How you manage that? How can we stop? Because it is very important also to take care of our personal life and on that time women have Most difficult situation in that subject that is that it's it's our reality But after five years, I think I could do the same because it's important because it's political And because now I have the opportunity to explain that in front of Of the sector of a lot of professionals and for the new generations who are coming Definitely, I hope that they will put the person and put the curse on the center We will need time what it's important. It's difficult and when you have the opportunity to have power and How can you manage this power in a good thing in a good way or in a bad way? So now that we are here that we have boys So we have to take into account all these needs all these subjects Because we can change things little by little Thank you What about Kuhn Lucho Sebastian? What do you have Kuhn? I see you reaching for the microphone. I Had a bad joke in my head Not gonna say it I'm the king of the bad jokes For me care, it's not about Women or or whatever it's a carousel very inclusive And you have to see it not in a binary or Universe it's it's very inclusive for for everyone we have to take care and sometimes We have a new Member of our team and there are some issues and there's someone reacting are we an inclusive Organization when We still working with with her or we have to Ask her to leave And it's very it enters really as a co-coordinator it enters, but what do we have to do? Because she's she has a bit the autistic Spectrum shizzle And that's so important that care for me, it's it's it's inclusive That's my first reaction. Thank you Lucho, do you have something to add to this idea of? Care having gendered implications and how do we balance this a bit? In our work, maybe I I don't think I have the solution, of course not I Very much hear what everyone has just shared and maybe I can Make a link back to circus in some kind of way Sometimes I work with groups of people our artists Whatever and I can ask them. What is what is circus? I would you define circus? So you get this list of words with performance and this and that One of the things that always turns out a lot of them You can take away because it also applies to other living arts and it also applies to this and it also applies to that So what would really define circus or what is one of the words that would really stay and that is very particular in circus and there's this sense of community and Yeah, this I think is strong and it yeah, it connects to the idea this of this shared responsibility that The responsibility or the burden is not always on The person that requires care the most Yeah, and this is something that I think circus can be good at Thank you so much for that Emilia Sebastian, do you have something to add to this discussion Sebastian? Yes, please You can say me again the question please of course I The question has to do with the fact that care is a gendered word meaning that a lot of It comes a lot of feminist Philosophers in particular have talked about how care is something that is required of women is not asked of them It's required mostly that they give it. They don't sort of a lack of choice a lack of option It's not optional for many women to give care. It's it's a requirement And so the question that I Would have brought to the group is how do we make sure it's not only one group of people? That are being the most burdens or the most considered Responsible for care. How do we share care more equally across to all of the sector in general? It's a really difficult question Because I Come in from the another context Latin America My first reference is my mother And we will we will we will be the first always In in South America is human Crescent grow. Thank you without the father. It's normal And I super agree for the human the life is completely Different and difficult for the man to the man and I think We are not equal And I work in my context I think it's super difficult to have a one clear position for me I think I have to just to watch to listen in that the the people Of course We have to give some tools to women for to work for example Different give a space give time and give power I Don't know sorry, but I don't have the dance where clear. It's difficult To say Have to be like that or have to be like that. We have to understand the context and the history and the The year I born in Dictadura for example And in my home we were our mother my brother and me And she worked and every day all day a lot a lot a lot Now I have to to take my responsibility and turn change the way with my kids for example in my Context now in our center Where the the women feel Important for example a little smaller samples. I don't want to talk about our my project. It's not really important. I think but It's important to have a space for example for yoga only for women with women women To space to create a secure space and comfortable and And create that space. It's not magic. You have to work for that You have to work with respect. You have to talk with another when you look when you see Something wrong. You have to go there and say stop. This is not the way You have to be really attempt. I Don't know in my country. We are living Really big changes now and For me it's my comfortable Place I'm feeling comfortable when the ocean is really I don't feel me comfortable when everything is calm. I'm feeling comfortable when everything isn't really happening, you know I don't know. I don't I don't have the answer. We're really clear, but I'm trying to explain myself. Yeah, thank you I think I think that you are what I'm hearing you say is two different things, which is that of course I'm Asking a very broad question, which of course has cultural implications and is very much tied to Everyone's local national and cultural context and I think when you're explaining that one thing that you do as part of your work in the center that you run is provide Embodied workshops to local women. It's also I think Implicating your organization in what Fabien Bourger called the change you care the chain of care, which is that you're seeing that there's a In your particular context women are burdened in their personalized with taking care And it's a way for you to take care of the carers and be a part of the chain of care within your your local community as an organization Yes, absolutely. I Think sometimes it's much more important important the question that the answer Now we have to give a space to for the questions Immediately you have something to add quickly before we try and wrap up Maybe we need to have Places as well for men So ball of you care, sorry for speak about care To me it is a notion that includes both men women and all these pieces that are around us and I think Moreover today, we'll have to learn to do things differently and to really take care of everything around us Continue discussion and talk with you. Hope I'm not saying the wrong thing for it on behalf of you guys In closing I would like each of you to complete the following sentence as an arts professional for me care is Fill in the blank it can be one words it can be a few words. There's no wrong answer It's just a quick way to wrap up and to To finish a sentence so again the sentence is as an arts professional for me care is Finish a sentence who wants to start cool and go ahead Evidence is your word. Okay. Thank you Empathy empathy care is empathy. Okay, but I don't me properly maybe in the bike In case you're in control An unavoidable question to be a good listener Okay, thank you You're not miked I would go back to collective responsibility Emili you've got the final word Taking care of our space we're done. Thank you so much everyone. It was pleasure Thank you so much everyone. Thank you Katie Kuhn Sebastiano Emili Marie Anna Lucho. Thank you. So While the technical team will set up the room for the final closing words by Christopher Miles who just joined us from the Minister of Culture Can I have your full attention? I know it's the last 10 minutes. We're gonna run lunch But I have some pretty Practical important information to share with you. Okay for the afternoon Hello First of all when you get out of here, please if you had a translation headset give it back I think you will because you probably gave your ID card. So you want it back? We're gonna have lunch on the Pellus de la Geode Which is the green turf just outside of here and we're gonna have a picnic and we're very lucky that it's not raining today So let's enjoy the picnic The picnic will last from one to two thirty. You probably paid for this when you registered We are gonna have three path for the afternoon. Okay, there is path one at espace periphery can't fair Okay, which will start at three till six You will follow a person holding a yellow umbrella to go to espace periphery Okay, this person is kinga. She's from our team. So kinga Yellow umbrella, okay The meeting point is at the picnic place at two forty five Let's try to be on time to be fair and to care for each other the path to It's between two forty five till five thirty. It's at le moulin fondue and we're gonna experience primo festival and For this path, we're gonna meet at two thirty and the person holding the red umbrella is me So, you know my face. I Think you know the color red if not just follow my face Okay, so at two thirty we meet and then we catch up the bus and then we go together If you miss the bus it's gonna be quite tricky for you to reach that place you can but probably you're gonna reach as well We're finished Okay, and then the third path It's the networking one from three to six You're we're gonna meet at two forty five and you're gonna follow a person holding a black umbrella and the person is Laura, okay, Laura black Stefan red king We are yellow. I Think it's good. I have the last information to tell you for tonight. I don't know if it's in the slide But I will tell you anyway. So there is a boat party tonight as you know Exactly we are very excited about this Let's go through the day first, okay, and we have to meet at the boat at eight We enter between eight and nine the boat lives at nine sharp If you're not there, we'll just wave hello from the boat Okay, so sorry to say but there are some if since we're gonna go through the sand We cannot allow ourselves to go on a different time Okay, so we meet at eight over there Drinks and food will be provided to you music and many surprises. So I hope you come so now that I've done my bit and there is a place for the general director Next slide, please the general director of artistic creation of the Ministry of Culture I invite Monsieur Christophe Hermels to join us for a few closing words Well, hello, good morning, good morning, good morning, good morning, good morning, good morning. I'm Christopher Mayes in charge of performing Arts and visual arts in the Ministry of Culture Ladies and gentlemen and of agenda's categories It's really a pleasure to be here with you today to celebrate this 20th anniversary Happy birthday, sir It's a pleasure as well because we are here at the Which is France one of the main Sides for circus expression and outdoor arts and it's been 40 years now Like to say a few words about what brings us together what's bringing you together Circus and art street art Social places they welcome Differences in terms of physical and social Communion where everyone can meet without judgment to discover Marvel magic And it's moment where everyone can forget the differences during the show So these are places the Ministry of the culture More than 40 years now Wanted to bring support And one proof of that is the Ministry of Culture wished that last weekend to open sessions for the heritage Rafael Boatel circus Show was presented in the Palais Royale, which is the seat of the Ministry of Culture in France Canopry Circus and the art and outdoor arts Have really shown Their vitality their creativity Has been under strain and now for us for all performing arts they're putting in the position To confront a huge shift in society The earth is Changing the ecological environmental transition Is also going through Culture Is now based on Other means and has this in mind as well to help people go through that transition We're talking about considering the world that is in the world that's Becoming the circus and after arts this proximity with audiences This capacity to bring to get the different generations this relationship Freeze bodies and spirits Helps us work on feeling or and Marvel for many Far above the DNA Oh She'll discipline that moving bodies through public space and on stage now You are building in a relationship with plastic art dance Theater drama There's diversity that is owned and exemplary In the opening up of Europe and international context in this context it seems important to say We are wanting to work with you on the issues that are at the heart of your Mission questions of care safety Diversity The heart of your artistic creation so that all the differences can be expressed all the otherness can be expressed Sustainable to support your sustainability with exemplary dialogue between your various communities. I just want to bring a message of hope and trust The society That's unfolding I'm for your eyes and the public They've behind you and now you're the second generation of creators That's constantly reinventing yourself For emerging artists today the mystery of culture in France will always be present those creators for outdoor arts and circus arts to give this message of hope trust and this Republican message that in all levels of arts in street arts and circus There's a capacity to integrate and imagine together What can? Be the possibility for a young child To be present At a show and say yes, I Recognize myself there. I can relate to this in the street and tomorrow I can imagine my life differently my creativity And I could be recognized as what I am and what I create. Thank you Thank you everyone. Thank you the translators. I'm not gonna give my thanks again for everybody Let's have lunch. Come on. Thank you Okay, morning sessions are Close now, but not the radio stream still yet. We're just listening to Christopher Miles was a general director of artist inquiries of the French Ministry and I told you before that we would talk a little bit more with Fabienne Grougere Who was the the keynote of the morning of this meeting and for an exclusive short More words we wanted In English for me and you speak English. Yes, of course, but you should you have read in English because this Ethic of care came from the states. Of course and the states you told us, huh? Regan time like mean art time could have been before in such a term But you don't want to talk mainly about politics You you you've listened to people from the art world now from the circus world talked Are you like me impressed by the fact that they always mentioned their family? Yes, in a way, it's interesting because they Mentioned their family and of course woman Mentioned their family. So it's a way of explaining That care is a gender question. Not only it It would it must be the question of all the humanity in fact But as usual Woman practice care. Yeah in the history. So, yes, it's a and we are still stuck into it Yes, and we remember somebody but We know also that family is a place where there is no care Because it's also the the place where there is a lot of violence So before caring, maybe it's would be good to Disconstruct the family, of course It's an institution. Yes, of course a family is an institution and A family is crossed by the question of gender is crossed by the possibility of violence by all sorts of asymmetries and asymmetry when it is a heterosexual family between Male and female and asymmetry between parents and children and so care is a way of introducing justice of introducing reciprocity in relations Which can be Inhabited by violence by power and so on and family Is not it's not only love Family is the violence power to like circus is not only to get together It can be also and we know it the artistic world is a very competitive work world and I Was thinking of what you said before you talk about a sort of revolution and you were asking for new institutions, right? So the question we have To ask now and maybe you have some answers What kind of institution do you think of? Certainly, maybe Someone that looks from outside because when we are inside, what do we see? I don't know. Maybe you have some example to talk about first of all, it's important to to mention that All artists all people work in the cultural sector As I've really to do I've really to do with neoliberalism and all the question of flexibility precarity vulnerability and so on and competition too But they have to be ready for anything. Yes, we ask them they have to be ready for anything, but I Considering that point that That neoliberalism is very stark in the artistic field it's important to to imagine the possibility of of new institutions Which would be which would be no, no neoliberal institutions and the best way to get to get new institution which would take care of individuals is is to is to have people Who have imagination who create? Collective responsibility Who try to to get together new ideas new? compositions of the bodies and so on new sort of Scenes of spectacles and so on so in a way. Yes, it's outside the existing Institution, but it has to be connected The link is with with the institutions where which exist I mean that institution I've to listen is there any an example of this work you've discovered in in your experience in your readings in Maybe it was in other society Like maybe not the modern occidental society because we know philosophy is an open world As an example I Would say that in some it's important to have Small structures of Of workers of cultural workers, which would be there for really for for listening to artists for listening to groups of artists and That's what was explained during during that morning Artists need to have Dialogues for their creations. They need to have Answers in they need to have possibilities and so it means it means in institutions it's mean people who can Listen to them who can take them into a conch in a way that that's something which is really important and it's a way of of taking care of the imagination of The artist because as usual we are so with Technology we are so with bureaucracy and so on that that we forget That that artist come with their imagination and that we have to to welcome That imagination and to give a certain price in a way Yes, we have this world always with a question of price Yeah, and price is not is not only money. It's in a way money We have to pay for having people who listen to to the artist To to all sorts of of creation and to render them real in a way care is not free Yeah, it's not free. It's not gratis. Thank you very much For your extra exclusive talk under web a radio of fresh I have to point out that your book is called the elite to care and it's a big success because it has been Read it as we said it has been translated in English. Yes in Italian in Spanish Portugal and in Japanese and it's going to be translated Yeah In Romania, which means which means there is a big Interest yes, and that's very interesting because 20 years ago You know when I began when I 11. Yes, but 20 years ago when I began to to study care Yes in a paper in a paper by your journal, which is called Esprit Which is a French journal. Yeah, it's a French review. Well, I'm sure you when I began to study care It was really no interest for for for anybody in France, and it's it's really incredible To to notice That today it becomes so important in many fields of Of our society because we we understood And maybe because of the pandemic that our society were sick the pandemic render Care visible, but it was there. Yes. The suffering was there. Yes before the pandemic. Yeah Thank you. So it's good to know that your book is translated for us all over the world To be able to read it. Thank you Fabienne Brigitte. Thank you We will leave you for this morning and meet You for this fresh 20 Anniversary of circles strada tomorrow Let's meet at 10 o'clock. We will be in the smallest circus of the world I say hello to Fabienne leaving the studio here in in la Villette this morning So tomorrow 10 o'clock same radio some streaming some team today with Boca and Clément recording the the streaming that With all around you can get it all over the place I mentioned for you to if you need that you will find much more in first information on The website of circus strada dot org and the podcast called around French that was Produced before the event by my chemist So I'm all the French journalist as you can hear Reporting live from the Villette in Paris. See you tomorrow morning 10 o'clock have a nice day