 Well, thank you, everybody, for coming. I know this is a time when a lot of people are away from ITU or they're busy. So it's good to have such a nice turnout today. So for those who don't know me, I'm Rob Clark. And this is Xiaoyi Yang, who works in accessibility in TSB. And Jack Salvador, I'll introduce more in a moment. OK, the agenda, it'll take about half an hour to 45 minutes to go through this today. We'll talk initially. Xiaoyi is going to introduce the big picture ideas about accessibility and what it means within ITU. I'll then look in a little more detail at document accessibility in particular for people with visual impairments, the guiding principles and where we can find a little more information. Then Jack is going to give us a demonstration of his experience as a blind man using accessing our documents through the websites and looking within the Word files what kind of experiences he has and what experiences he's had outside ITU. Please feel free, if we miss anything as we go through, please feel free to jump in and ask questions. Or at the end, we can have a broader discussion about what we've seen, about the subject in general, and particularly about what steps we could take next. And throughout, I'll just remind you that we have no answers yet. This is very early in the process. This is really just a way of raising awareness among staff and raising difficult questions or easy questions about what this is going to mean in the future. So, Xiaoyi. Good afternoon, colleagues. I'm very happy that we are joining here in this session to talk about accessibility. I do not want to take too long before we hear the interesting sharing of experience by Jacques. I just want to highlight that accessibility is a very important working area for the ITU. And I just mentioned a few background. There is the United Nations Convention for the Rights of Persons with Disabilities adopted in 2005, where the accessibility of ICTs are considered very important means to get disabled people integrated into the society to be able to live independently. There is article of this convention for ICT accessibility. It's article nine. Then after WTSA08 first adopted resolution 70 on accessibility, ITUPP 2010 and WTDC 2010 also adopted relevant resolutions. And within the ITU staff, we have established an accessibility task force chaired by the deputy secretary general. And we have also developed an accessibility policy, which was approved by ITU Council 2013. And we have also developed an accessibility action plan for 2014, which was presented to the Council this year and was approved. Rob have already sent all these links to you in the meeting invitation. So that's a very useful information if you are interested in more work with what we are doing within the ITU for accessibility. Document accessibility is one of those tasks we plan to progress this year in the action plan. I also want to mention that within the ITU, it is the ITU T sector who initiated work on ICT accessibility. We have our question four of study group two, which is human factors. And we have question 26 of study group 16, which is accessibility to multimedia. So these two questions have already been working on ICT accessibility since many years, which could be even dated back to the famous dot on the button five, which is an accessibility feature for blind people to locate their finger on the right button. This is many, many years ago. And there is also F-series recommendation approved by study group 16, which is a guideline for universal design in standards making process. Because of that, we have two study groups working on this area. Therefore, we have joint coordination activity on accessibility and human factors, which is chaired by Madame Andrea Sachs, which many of you might have already met with. And she is a passionate, committed evangelist for accessibility within ITU. And she has made a great effort making us be aware of this important subject. Also, I want to mention that ever since 2006, 2007, we have been providing captioning service for accessibility-related meetings, workshops, for question 26 meetings, and GCHF meetings. We also provided captioning service for TSEC meetings, starting recently, which was followed then by PP10. And for council, now we also have captioning, which is very well accepted by all the ITU membership. So that's my first point. I want to say that accessibility is an important work. And the second point I want to say is that awareness is the most important first step before any deliberate action. Because without awareness, we do not have the same feeling. We just are not aware about those inaccessibilities. It's just too common for us normal people. Therefore, sharing of experience, this kind of firsthand experience is very important to make people sympathetic and compassionate for this work. I would just want to share a little bit of my experience. And you might have heard that our colleague Alexander Gasparis has fallen sick leave. I think part of that is also due to the pressure of this work. There is intense pressure of this work. Because if you are not aware of all those specific needs, it's easy to get complaints afterwards. Although it's not personal, but if you cannot handle it very well, it comes into personal feelings. For example, once we organized a very nice reception on a loan during one of the IGF, which was everybody is satisfied. It was great, nice food and beautiful tables. Everything was appreciated. But soon we heard that a person on wheelchair cannot come to this place, which is just the last drawback which ruined a perfect reception. Something like that. And also, for example, those kind of small things, if we do not pay attention, it gets easily slapped. For example, if we think that badges could be printed on double sides and can be printed in bigger fonts, it will facilitate many participants to recognize each other. And especially to not to embarrass women. I just want to share before Jack coming to the document accessibility, our last experience of myself about a remote participation experience of the GCA-AHF meeting, which was held on the 30th of May 2014, which is just two months ago. That meeting was organized in room L2. As usual, for this GCA meeting, we book caption service, which needs to be done like booking our interpretation. It's our process, which needs to be started long enough. Don't forget. And because we will have one deaf participant on site, so we need to contract a sign language interpreter for him also in advance. And this lady is first time to ITU, so someone needs to get her in from the reception and some introductions to everybody in this room. And again, we have remote participation for this meeting. What's really interesting or impressive of this meeting is we have three different kinds of challenging remote participants. One participant remote is deaf, and his sign language interpreter is also remote, was also remote. So there is like a three-party. The meeting is in room L2, and that participant is in one city in the UK, and his sign language interpreter is in another city of the UK. Each of them, at that time during the meeting, had three screens in front of them. One is for remote participation tool, and the other one is for the captioning text, and the third one is for sign language video conference between them two. This is just one case, and adding to that, we have one blind remote participant who is using screen readers like Jack is going to show us, therefore, because he cannot handle two audio streams at the same time, so he can only join their voice to the remote participation. He cannot use the remote participation tool because he cannot read the remote participation screen and the text screen and the audio, everything he is relying on audio. And the third remote participant, which also challenged our remote participation because he's a normal person, no disabilities in that sense, but he doesn't know how to use the chat pod of Adobe Connect. So every time when he needs the floor, he just started to interact with everyone. Therefore, all of this need the awareness of the remote moderator and the remote moderator needs to test with each of them and to make agreement with them that if you want to ask the floor, how will you do that? If you want to ask the floor, please do this. And if you want to ask the floor, please do that. And also, the chairman have to normally pause after each agenda item say, let's make sure if there is anyone asking the floor, which is normally not the case if you have a normal meeting like us, what we are doing now here. So after this, I'm just saying that it's very important that you have firsthand experience, you become aware. And therefore, I appreciate very much, again, for Rob and Jack for their effort and their initiative to organize this session. And I hope that all of us will benefit from the experience you are sharing with us. Thank you very much. Thank you, Sharia. OK, so Sharia described the bigger picture, the broader implementation of accessibility in the UN. And she also focused on one aspect of accessibility, which is people with hearing impairments. We're going to look for the rest of the session at the other aspect, the other main aspect, which is people with visual impairments. Now, there are some source texts a little bit closer to home than the ones Sharia described. There's the ITU accessibility plan that describes in very high-level terms what we're trying to accomplish. And then in more detail, there are ITU accessibility guidelines, which try to go down into more concrete examples what we can do. Now, the accessibility plan has lots of parts. The ones that apply to us most at the moment firstly, engagement with staff and raising awareness. So that's one of the reasons we're here today. Another aspect is the accessibility of meeting documents. So that means both how you get access to the document through the website and also what the content looks like once you open the Word file. Now, accessibility, as Sharia mentioned, covers a lot of different groups and different needs. That includes physical, mental, intellectual, or sensory impairments. And we should try to bear that in mind whenever we're trying to understand what this topic means. Within the accessibility guidelines, there are several big ideas to put in place. And we should bear that in mind when we watch Jack's presentation. The first is universal design. So in the past, there's been a tendency to do special applications for people with accessibility issues. But this guide in principle means that we should try and develop one tool, one website, one Word file that is properly accessible to everybody. And what often happens is that it meets the accessibility needs of individuals, but it's also useful for everybody else as well. The other aspect which is important to us is that this shouldn't overburden us as staff members. The idea of reasonable accommodation means that we should do what we can within the resources available. Now, there are existing guidelines, generally best practice on the Microsoft site and things like this. But at the moment, they don't really tell us what we should be doing day to day. And today's session is really about raising awareness of what issues there are that we could be addressing. And once we've done that, we can start developing guidelines, developing document templates that would help guide the work in the future. So Jack, if I could hand over to you. Maybe you could say a few words about how you find ITU compared to other organizations and maybe give us a demonstration of browser and web and looking inside some Word files. Well, thank you for giving me the floor. Good afternoon. My name is Jack Salvador. I'm French national, French speaking. So that's why we're here, some French accent while speaking English. Anyway, I'm an interpreter working with French as an active language and English, Italian, Russian, and Spanish. I'm working as a freelance interpreter, including working for the ITU sometimes, from time to time. And for these, I need to access documents. New technologies in the ITT was really a great hope for us because when it started to work, I basically had to work without documents because the only thing we had was paper. So when documents started to be on the web and there could be a paper list, that meant that they were becoming accessible for us. Unfortunately, while documents were becoming accessible, the resource in the websites to access them were becoming inaccessible. I have to say, and that will sound very sweet for you, that ITU is the organization that will say the most advanced regarding accessibility. Because accessibility, what does that mean for us? That means jobs. That means that today we're going to be able to work to integrate a team. As far as I'm concerned, it's the interpretation teams. And that means that we're going to become more visible. You know, from time to time, people are used to saying, well, why should we be concerned about accessibility since there are nobody who would be benefiting from it? And I would say this is a sort of vicious circle. If you don't offer accessibility, you will not have people stepping in and working. And as you're going to work with, you're going to include accessibility and a reasonable accommodation, I think that people with special needs and people with disabilities will come and step in, I would be more visible. This is what I'm trying to prove while I'm working here with the ITU. In other organizations, to be very quick, there is nearly nothing existing at the moment. Used to be a permanent at the UN in Nairobi in Yunnan as an interpreter. And when I talked about the problems, I had nobody to talk to. My direct supervisor said to me, well, I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do. Well, cope and manage by yourself. I have a friend of mine who is also blind working in the French section of the translation service of UNOC here in Geneva, having the same problem because they are redesigning all the docs control. And he sees the stage where he is going to stop working because he won't be able to access the documents and the reference documents. So the situation is very serious. I'm very happy to be and very honored to be invited here and very happy to, sorry, very happy to, well, that accessibility is one of your concerns. Most of the time, the most important thing is to talk together. And sometimes we can find an easy solution because accessibility is benefiting everybody. Even in, I would say, not in ICT, but in real life, not in virtual life. But you see, when you're making an accessible ramp for a wheelchair, you will realize that some people who are drawing a case or who are just pushing a pram or a caddy or whatever will use this ramp. So accessibility would benefit everybody. And that's why universal design is very important because universal design means that accessibility can go beyond people with special needs. I am going to go through the demonstration right now. So I'm working here with a Mac computer simply because Apple were the first to include accessibility in this concept of universal design. So that means that it's out of the box. When you're used to buy a computer working under windows, for example, you had to buy an accessibility software which cost about three times the computer because accessibility has a cost. And this cost is most of the time borne by the people who buy the users, which is at some point not fair, not because the users don't have to pay. The users have to pay money like everybody else, but they don't have to pay for their disability. So what is very good is that this cost here is shared by every Apple computer user. And what is very good is that you get into a shop, you just get the right command, the accessibility system for visually impaired with Apple is called voiceover. The most popular accessibility system for windows called JAWS, which is job access with speech. And you've got also window eyes. But as I said, they are not included, so you've got to buy them on the top of what you're spending for your computer and other softwares. OK, so you just have to enter a command, which is available on all computers. It's also available on smartphones, like in my case, the iPhone, for example. So I'm going to voiceover, active and pursue. I'm very happy because usually when we're doing a demo, it doesn't work. Now it works. That's very good. Can I close this? Or you? Yeah, go ahead. OK. Ladies, plan 245. OK. So now I am on a Word document. That was a plenary document with an agenda. So what is voiceover or JAWS or whatever it is? What is an accessibility system for visually impaired made of? It's made of speech synthesizer, which is a good thing, but sometimes not sufficient. In my case, for example, working as an interpreter, I cannot always use a speech synthesizer. Why? Because as I'm interpreting into French with a microphone open with earphones on my heads, listening and working at the same time, there is no way for me to use a speech synthesizer. If the microphone is open, I mean, the audience who listened to the French channel would hear the speech synthesizer, so it's not what we want. And I would be prevented from listening to what's happening. It's also not what we want. So what we're doing here, I'm using Braille, which is not incompatible. So there is a Braille display here connected by Bluetooth to the computer displaying what is on the screen at the moment. So for example, so I will stop the speech for one minute. OK, so here I will. OK, let me see. Let me try to figure out what I am now. OK. OK, so approval of, for example, I'm just reading right here what I have under my finger. Approval the new revised text. Refer to AST during app TD 117P, et cetera, P, approval of a drive-to-reverse, et cetera, et cetera. So OK, recombinations according to resolution 1TAP. OK, so now, for example, if I want to open the next document, which is TD 246P, OK, what I'll do. All right, here we go. OK, here I've got Ouvrieu. OK, and now I'm being taken to the website where I will be able to find the resource. Now, what happens with the website? Usually what you have, you have a global overview of the website just looking at your screen, which is not my case. In my case, I've got either the speech synthesizer that I can read through the website. OK, if it wants to, I'll be great. What would you like to search for? Kunturi Sidix, you search. List seven ailments. The two. General secret radio communication. Standardization. So just imagine that for visually impaired person, being on a web page like this one is when you get there for the first time, like being in an apartment that you don't know, OK? So you are in an apartment where you don't know. You've got to look for the, maybe if you want to make a cup of tea, you've got to find the kitchen. You've got to find the kitchen, then the kitchen sink, then the cupboard, then the kettle and everything to make your tea. So it takes, obviously, a lot of time as you don't have an overview of the web page, OK? So that makes things difficult. It's a matter of time. So obviously, working more or less on a regular basis for the ITU, being recruited by the interpretation services of the ITU, I have some experience already. So I visited already this website. So that would be easier for me to go through it and to find the document I need. But still, you will see that I need some time. So I'm going to try to open this document. About ITU team study groups, events, all groups, join ITU standards, resources, workshops, regional present, Finderlist, development. Please bear in mind that the nearest exit may be behind you. ITU telecom, membership, Finderlit, the 2D work program. You will skip navigation home. OK. Comma, ITU, share, share, share on link, share via email. Work item, G9, staff approved on two issued from previous comma. Approval, press tab. Type of work item, recommendation, version, new, provisional name, GFASP, equivalent number, tire-odd, timing, tire-odd, lia tire-odd, subject title. Fast access to summary, recommendation, comment. Tire-odd, base text, S, D246 plan. Here we go. Tie, sell, and ale-optiv. Comma, Finder, tablo, contact, S, the blue, one lebron, column one, commentator. Finder, tablo, the 2TA, five reference, F, generate A, five track, the blue, one colon, one lecoma, IEEE 802 point, Finder, tablo, comma. Submit new A, five ties, comma P, first registration, last update, list 6A, leave it, follow US. Twitter, Facebook, uplit, symbol, two joints, feedback, contact us, accessibility, Finder list, back to top. Okay, so went too far. Finder, uplit, pdf, tutorial, comma, tie, sell, submit, comma, IEEE, the blue, generate A, five track, TD, generated, the 2TA, five reference, S, Finder, tablo, commentator, lebron, the blue, one contact, S, Finder, comma, comma, tie, sell, and ale-optiv, TD 200 comma, TD 246 plan. Okay. A put, SIP, comma, 246 plan, draft new recommendation to 2TG, 9007, international telecommunication youth, Francis. Okay, so we. The name of the formulae are found. Characters, moes, leans, tabloes. Okay, so what I'm trying to find is a very, the heading for me to help, sometimes could be a good idea to classify actually this kind of thing by headings because heading is easy, but anyway. Sight map, column one, SG5, comma, temporary documents, meet colon, 200, recently posted, search meeting document, comma, 246 plan, the 2TSG15, study period, meeting from 2014 to temporary document, received on, tooth, source, editor, related to quit, access, locked, document, restrict ties, users, comma, 2T, available languages and four, the blue, five columns, five lines. Okay. Column two, two columns to, click on the selected format and language, column four, column five, link to column one, view, column two, format, column three, column four, posted, column three, size, column five, link free, column one, view, column two, four columns to large, view. Link for column one, English, column two, word document, word 2010. Okay, here we go. Word document, word 2010. So now I know that I'll be prompted for my, for entering my ties, logging in. Column four, link five, column one, colon, fin to tableau, top. So what type? Lines. I know that I'll have to look for a form, the form to fill in. Tableaus, liens, tableaus, lines, tableaus. I don't have it, what? Fit, contact, copy, column four, column three, column two, word document, word 2010. Okay. Appuire, word document, word 2010. I'm a bit, maybe because I entered the, a feature left to FASER, FASER. T-13, SG-15, 140,000, 324, TD, PLEN, zero, two, four, six, exclamation point, MSW, E, to a feature dance, the fanger. Appuire, a fig fanger, tail-aid chargements, print, T-13, SG-15, 140,000, 324, TD, PLEN, zero, two, four, out, text edit, T-13, SG-15. So you realize how long it took me to get through these, through these documents. That, what does that mean? That means that when I'm in the booth, I have already a preparation beforehand so that I can obviously know where things are. And obviously the, so that I wouldn't take, I've got already my documents classified. I've, I mean, ideally I have had the agenda before and I know, but sometimes in some organization like the UN, for example, you never know from the morning to the afternoon where you're going to work. So you cannot access the agenda because you don't know the meeting you're going to be assigned to. You see what I mean? And you cannot complain about that because if you complain about the lack of accessibility or the lack of accommodation regarding accessibility and so on, they say, oh yes, you're right. This is true. We don't have any, we're not concerned enough for accessibility so you cannot work for us. You see? So you just have to keep silent about the override, you don't get the job. Okay, but anyway, here we open this document. International study, telecommunication, standardization sector, study period 2000, English only, Nouvelle Lane, original, English. Okay, this is, I've got my documents so I can just read it. So I've got, I'm reading question 4 slash 15, 24 March, 4 April, 2014, TD, Source, Rapporteur, Rapporteur, DFAST, et cetera, et cetera. Now, what I can do, of course, reading braille is always slow so if I have the possibility, see if I don't have anybody, a colleague to disturb in the booth, if I'm alone in the booth or if I sometimes use the lunch break for the other coffee breaks for that, I can just have a quick reading by with the speech synthesizer. So what you can do here, I will just go through the documents, you can maybe close your eyes and just listen to the documents and see how you can let the information come to you. International telecommunication union, study group 15, telecommunication, standardization sector, study period 2013 to 2016, TD 246, plen slash 15, English only, original, English, question S, 4 slash 15, March 24th, April 2014, TD, Source, Rapporteur, DFAST, title, draft new recommendation to 2TG 9704 approval, 4 April 2014, draft recommendation to 2TG 9700X, GFAST PSD, fast access to subscriber terminals, fast power spectral density specification, summary, recommendation to 2TG 9700 specifies power spectral density, PSD, mask requirements for fast access to subscriber terminals, fast, a set of tools to support reduction of the transmit PSD mask, profile control parameters that determine spectral content, including the allowable. Tell me when you've had enough. Okay, so this is about it. I think that this is all I can show you today. As far as I'm concerned, I've been pretty satisfied with the job was just made. The document synchronization software is today, unfortunately, not accessible. I hope that this problem will be addressed because that would be obviously a solution not to be compelled to navigate through a website, which, as you could see, takes time, which I'm very sorry about because I thought that it would be quicker. So I was myself a little bit put off. And, but anyway, this to give you a rough idea of what we can do, obviously, I'm at your disposal, not as an expert, but as a user to test and better test and give some opinions and debate and everything. I'll be accessibility is my interest. Accessibility is, well, is the way for me to have a job to survive and to earn my living. So I'll be ready to be as involved as I can actually with you and thank you very much. Excellent, thank you, Jack. Do I need to switch this off? Yes, thank you. Oh, okay. Thanks very much for that very interesting exploration of our websites and giving us the experience of the frustrations of using our documents. I'd like to put the, I'd like to put out the floor now. Does anyone have any questions I'd like to put to Jack? Go ahead, thanks. Your interpreter colleagues who aren't blind, how do they feel about having documents not on paper but electronic? Because maybe if all of you had to access them electronically, they'd be a simpler way of providing everybody documents in advance. So you wouldn't have to navigate like that so slowly. Okay, that's a very good question actually because some colleagues who love to work, I would say, all the way and who consider that they cannot do anything but with paper. So some people felt me demanding or asking for paperless documents, felt it as considered as a threat, which is not by the way because working with electronic documents doesn't prevent. Then it's the organization policy. You've got organizations like the ITO, other organization, even as I said, I worked for UNEP and UNON for some time, so UNON and UNEP work, I mean they are UNEP by the way, so they have to work with paperless documents at some point, you know. So the people have to be aware that we are going towards work without paper anyway. But some people in my profession feel it as a threat. But you know, we went to some sort of absurd situations where interpreters demanded paper. Absolutely, they wanted to work on paper only. And when I was asking for some paperless documents, they say, hey man, the chief interpreter said that you can work with paper only. So for example, when I was in a drafting meeting, I had some, so the text which was being drafted was typed on the computer, printed on paper, brought to the booth. And I say, may I have, if I give you a memory stick, may I have this document on my memory sticks so I can access it? And I say, no, sorry, you can't. So you know, this is definitely a burning issue. Obviously the new generation understands that we're going to a paperless way of working and things are getting smoother and easier. Thank you, Jacques. Any other questions? Yeah, go ahead, it's Jose Maria. Hi, I'm Jose Botanero, I'm from the General Secretariat working on the accessibility policy. So maybe an overall comment on, maybe from your side, if you, how you feel that we are progressing, if you see an improvement, how our services in general, so you've mentioned today documents, but in general the idea is to make all our services to staff, delegates, and to the general public accessible. How are our general services improving? And maybe from your side, suggestions that things you think we should be focusing immediately. So you mentioned, for instance, the application to sync documents, so that we take note of that. Maybe you have some ideas that we can incorporate for future revisions of this plan. Well, thank you for the question. You know, I find at the ITU, well, I mean, things go well, they go their way and they go smoothly. And the, well, the best way to prove it is I'm here to talk about that. And I've been invited to talk about that, and to talk about that, I'm not the only one. So this is a very good thing. And the other good thing to mention is that ITU staff, for example, so security staff, is very helpful for mobility. For example, you know, mobility is a real challenge, and especially for an interpreter, because sometimes you're assigned to a meeting in the morning, the meeting may change venue, may change room, because the room is not available in the afternoon, so you've got to go to another room. And sometimes colleagues are not ready to help, or they just cannot do. I'm not telling you the judgment about that, but this is, this may be the case, not always. Some colleagues show solidarity. Some other colleagues do not. And at the end of the day, I would say they have the right. I mean, they're here to do their job, and they don't... I mean, I'm not the one who can oblige them or compel them to solidarity. So this is something that we also have to bear in mind, because one thing that I was told when I started to express my desire of wanting to be an interpreter, and even when I started to be on the freelance market of interpretation, some chief interpreter said to me, well, Holden, I'm not going to recruit you because that will be a burden for your colleagues. And I said, definitely not. I mean, I will do my very best not to be a burden for my colleagues, and I think I'm pretty successful in that. I mean, if you're hearing some colleagues complaining about me being a burden because of disability or whatever, I mean, just send them to me. So, well, many things can be improved, of course. But the best way to do it is just to talk together, because sometimes there are very simple things. You know, I had a problem in New York because you may find it funny, but it's not funny at all. I was in the wrong rest room. I was in ladies' room. And a lady and let's see, what are you doing in the ladies' room? So I'm just admiring the view through the window. Well, she didn't find it as a joke at all. She didn't find it funny at all. She fired a complaint, and, well, it finished well. But I said, well, I'm sorry, but the simplest thing to do is just to put a braille label on the door, men's or ladies' restroom, and the problem will be definitely sorted out. OK, this is an extreme example, but it may happen. Now they did it, by the way, in a UN secretariat in New York. So things go, they also make progress. Accessibility on labeling the elevators button is also a good thing. So there are plenty of good things that we could do. But most of the time, good communication, being able to express needs without taking them for granted. OK, I'm not going to, well, don't count on me to say, OK, I will need, you have to do this and this is my right. No way. I have special needs. I am perfectly aware that some of them can be accommodated. Some of them cannot. I promise I would continue to do it with it. Sometimes it may cause frustration. This is part of my life. My life is made of many frustrations, but I can live with it. And I think that with good communications, I mean, frustrations can easily fade away. Did I answer your question? Yeah, absolutely. Excellent. Thank you. Any further questions? OK, I see no hands. I think that's probably a natural point to draw this session to an end. I'd like to thank Shaq again for this fantastic opportunity to experience what we do from the other side of the fence. I think it's been very interesting. If you're like me, it raises more questions than answers. And that's really the next point, which is what are the next steps? And that is to start gathering together what these questions are. You may have seen things today that help you see the nature of the problem. Maybe you might have seen the nature of the solution as well, but not necessarily. So really, the aim of this session was to raise awareness. And I'd invite you, following on from this meeting, please get in touch, either through me or through the accessibility team, with your ideas, your observations about accessibility, about the types of problems we've got. And just take part in the discussion about what we can do next. So in concrete terms, the templates group is already trying to develop accessibility-based templates for all our word files. And from my point of view, along with Shao Yeh and the accessibility team, I'll be starting to put together guidelines which just gather best practice on what we can do to make life a little bit easier for people with visual impairments. So just to round off, I'd just like to say thank you once again to Jack for his time and his insights. Thank you very much.