 Y ddigon iddyn nhw i'r ffesifel i arferwadodwyr yma ac yn gweithio arwybod o'r age families a'r ddylaniad i drafoddd sydd wedi teimlo yn dweud. Dyma rydych chi'n credu i gyfmyddio'r ddigon i gyfysgafol a phesifadau a'r ddigon i fynd, ac o hoffi ar y gweithio gwahanol gwahanol. Mae rhan oes iddyn nhw i'r ddigon a chwych chi am y mynedd, erbyn i Wisionynau yn y cyfnod. Felly, wrth chi'n bwysig o'i wneud, ystod, Stuart Kazamier yn gw shepherdr dyng Nghymru, yn cwestiynau BBC Scotlandus Black Scottish ac Stuart yn ddiddiych i ddwylo cymaint yr ystod codd y Prydysgrifennu Bain yn y Gwymwyng Llywodraeth Llywodraeth, eu hunai symud yng Nghymru a phemôr gan cyrraedd cymaint ar y brwyngholi across five local newsrooms in Scotland. We have Luke McCulloch to my left, who's the head of corporate affairs and public policy for the BBC in Scotland. And also Professor Phillips Sleshinger, who's a professor of cultural theory at the Centre for Cultural Policy Research at the University of Glasgow and deputy director of CREATE, E, the UK copyright and creative economy centre. A very warm welcome to you all this morning. So our topic is the future of broadcasting and obviously broadcasting is changed, our habits have changed, the nature of broadcasting, public sector broadcasting has changed and each of the panel has a unique experience and view of this and I'm going to open up by just asking them to outline what they think are the immediate challenges and the long-term challenges facing broadcasting and I'll go right to left and ask Linda to come in first. Oh well hello everyone, that's a big question isn't it? What are the challenges facing broadcasting? There are so many but that's not a new question. When I first joined STV it was almost 30 years ago, I can't believe it as I say that out loud and I think the first time I was actually told I started working in news, I came in as what was called a news assistant and the head of news said to me then you know broadcasting is not a job for life, it's changing, it's evolving and I said I understand that, I just need a job, I want to get in there and I got in there and I see the same thing, it's evolving and it's changing but I've never really experienced such dramatic change I would say in the past 10 years driven of course as I'm sure all of you very well aware of the whole world of digital, it is changing everything certainly that my newsroom is doing and it's certainly being driven by change and consumption by all of you and all of us here because we are all the consumers, audiences are changing, technology has driven that even coming over here today on the train, people were consuming on phones, laptops, iPads, people expect news delivered to them so that's one of the big challenges that I see in news and just in a wider scale of course it's the introduction of the big streamers, streamers bring choice, it's fantastic, who doesn't love to sit and binge, I know I do, Stuart Snowden along here too, we love to binge but that's a challenge also for public service broadcasting because public service broadcasters are the main channels, it's BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5 and competition is good, I don't think anyone denies that, the question and where I would land on this is the world a better place with the existence of the streamers and public service media and that's where I come at it, I think public service broadcasting is hugely important, important for many reasons and I'm sure we'll get into that during the discussions, it's important where we see ourselves reflected both in high quality drama and strong scheduling but the cornerstone is news and current affairs which I oversee and it's a better place that we have it in any democracy, big, big challenges ahead, Claire. Thank you, Stuart. Okay, so when I was thinking about this, I was thinking, let me just be honest, in my view as a exec producer for Create Anything, so we have produced content for BBC Scotland but most recently Amazon Prime, a document, drama documentary and also Four Kings which is a sports documentary. Now the difference I have noticed is when working with the BBC, the Australian X amount per hour, et cetera, we're going to be on the BBC iPlayer which is nationwide and then you've got Amazon Prime which is basically your orchestra, we want you to direct this, produce this, how much do you want and you're just looking at the figures you're getting from Amazon Prime and then the BBC but with Amazon Prime what you get is an international stage which means for me as a director I can go, I should be able to go anywhere in the world and I'll be able to say you can just go and check out Amazon or Netflix, let's see. Now what I've noticed is I'm very fortunate and recently signed up with a global production company and they said to me, as soon as we sign up, forget about the BBC and forget about Channel 4, it's all about making content for NBC, HBO, et cetera. So it's sad because in Scotland we don't have the budget, the budgets are very very small, you can tell a Scottish production straight away from speaking to Tim Davies at the time head of the BBC, he'd said with the budget, I come from a cinematography background so aesthetically it looked like something from HBO but it was with a smaller budget and he said that is the problem in Scotland. Scotland has got some beautiful stories, gorgeous stories but aesthetically we know that you guys are your Netflix, you're Amazon, you're watching good quality content, it looks good, it sounds good, it is good. The problem with Scotland is we don't have the money backing us to be able to create that content so good DPs, good directors, good execs, et cetera are all leaving to go work abroad. Now I have a family in Glasgow, I'm here, however I was offered to go and work in the Bob Marley film for Paramount Pictures in Jamaica for two months and then it was in the States to work in the different strokes in the Janet Jackson documentary. Now if I didn't have family I wouldn't be here, I would live elsewhere and that is basically what's happening to all of the talent, really good talent because why would they stay here if they don't have the platform, I could go on all day so I'm going to stop but that's my take on it and there's more. Thank you, really interesting, I'm sure we'll come back to those issues, Luke would you like to come in? I think it's sorry morning everyone and apologies for being the one that came with the summer cold, absolutely inevitable that one of us would be, I think when you call an event the future of broadcasting there's a sort of hint that it's maybe in trouble that it's in crisis that the future is uncertain, future has always been uncertain ever since the BBC was founded, broadcast for the first time in Scotland 100 years ago this year but it sort of troubles me sometimes that we paint these amazing things that the streaming platforms are doing as in being direct competition with the public part of broadcasting and I don't see the future as them being in competition at all, I think they are different things doing different jobs for different people, the BBC in Scotland obviously is it does as Linda said have a news and current affairs team like STV does, it scrutinises the exercise of power in Scotland, it holds our politicians to account on radio, television and online and has 14 different bases all across Scotland where we gather news and make sure that we're not just representing a part of Scotland but that with one third of the UK's land mass we can truly gather our news from everywhere where it's happening but I think what a public broadcast does is broader than news and current affairs that Gaelic is deeply important to the BBC in Scotland, we have our BBC Alibar service and also BBC Radio Nigel and not only is that for speakers of Gaelic but it's for learners of Gaelic and making sure that Scotland's language that isn't English also thrives in the same way that English does the BBC invests in apprentices and skills is interesting hearing what Stuart's saying about talent fleeing Scotland and I think money talks and I get that but the number of apprentices has changed exponentially both in the BBC and at other broadcast operators in Scotland in the last few years and there's so much so there's almost now a skill shortage because it's not only the BBC and STV productions that are making video content in Scotland it is Amazon Prime and it's the Outlander production at Cumbernauld and so on we have a really important job as public broadcasters to make sure we are helping train the industry and get the skills that are required in Scotland for us to be a home of creativity which we've always been but video production has been booming in Scotland in recent years but a skill shortage could of course cause that to be a problem but to that do the streamers and the public broadcasters compete I genuinely don't think they're the same thing I think Netflix does a great job at what it does but it doesn't really represent my life and that I think is the job of the public broadcasters I mean unless your life is a castle for Christmas that's their version of Scotland it's sort of the tartan the shortbread it's not my version of Scotland it's not real life I think that's what the public broadcasters STV and the BBC can do in a way that the streamers can't they don't have if you look back to the pandemic for example which is only really a short distance ago in terms of all of our memories getting health information from both the Scottish Government and the UK Government to the audience you didn't get that from Amazon Prime when all of the schools closed then the BBC had a bespoke curriculum offer for children that either didn't have internet access at home because of where they lived or because of the fact their families couldn't afford it so free on television bespoke to Scotland's curriculum were hours and hours and hours of educational content and we still provide of course the bite size service now that that education has returned much more to normal also when places of worship were closed the BBC went into churches to mosques to synagogues and filmed service material again so communities of faith could come together Disney Plus probably wasn't doing that they're different things and I think they both have a future that's relevant provided we get that future right thank you and Philip final reflections yes really difficult in a way to summarise the the current situation but I think we are witnessing the end of broadcasting in a way we're we're looking at a a system where viewing scheduled TV is diminishing there's a whole generational change going on in terms of how consumption is going which is actually extending across generations but particularly marked amongst younger generations and we have heard really about the tensions around the finance of broadcasting and I think that really is to get to one of the most fundamental things because it is both an economic question but it's also very much a political question and if you look over the past decade or so you see the government the UK government having pushed back the funding available to the BBC and the other broadcasters redefining what they do so that if you look for example of the way in which ITV and STV have developed they're not exiting from traditional broadcasting but they're changing the way their businesses operate so that they are much less dependent on providing broadcasting I think one of the things that Stuart said really points to the changing marketplace which is driving the situation and we're in now which is partly due to technological change but also due to sheer money that can be spent on the making of content Netflix will spend four times as much on a drama as the BBC can afford so one of the fundamental questions and I think this really touches on a point made by Luke is what do we want do we want something that is in the public interest do we want something that is not purely driven by commercial considerations and we've reached a point where that's actually quite difficult to decide it's difficult to decide for many reasons but one of the reasons is that generations have now grown up without a sense of what public service broadcasting is it's not a criticism it's simply a fact the the whole map that we have of the media ecology the the way in which media companies operate has transformed in the last decade so you need to kind of get out there and explain to people why we want something that's public something that supports the variety of cultural and other identities in the UK it's quite true that these are not the remits of the big streamers they are the remits of public service broadcasters do these things matter does if you like honest journalism which is based on a principle of evidence and impartiality matter to us that's very much in question at the present time in a society that's highly divided but all of these are the the currents that are running through the debate about broadcasting um you know that there's a plethora of stuff that you could read if you really wanted to but the fundamental questions are how is what is left of the public system going to redefine itself how is it going to be funded is it going to get the kind of political support that it needs and above all is it going to get the public support that it needs are people prepared to pay for it at a time when we we subscribe to everything if you like or actually at a time of economic crisis when a lot of us desubscribe from things how do you actually persuade people that these are public goods they're not just for me but they're for us so that there's a there's a big big dilemma in our political and cultural life which has not yet been resolved in a context of massive hostility I would say from the conservative party towards public service broadcasting over a long period I could go on of course since I've spent years going on about things but I will just stop there and say that's my agenda thank you okay thank you um I wonder if I could just bring a sort of Scottish focus and some of the comments that have been made over the years we've had discussions in Scotland about the nature of public sector broadcasting at one point um we've got fantastic studios both for STV and BBC in Glasgow um but there was a concern at one point that some of the production wasn't if you like Scottish grown that it was um brought in and put in Glasgow but the the writing the techniques the the um IP of all of that wasn't really a Scottish brand and you mentioned that particularly we're not reflecting Scotland but I was particularly interested in in Stuart's comments as well um in that the opportunities they have now are fantastic and on the back of incredible work that you've done but do you think that would have been possible without the public sector broadcasters that we have in Scotland at the moment and the opportunities within Scotland and and what what in terms of you know um reflecting on yourself Linda I mean what does that production here actually do for that skill set and growing it because we're always been told it's a huge opportunity for Scotland so I'd like to hear just you know how we how we capitalise on that and what's needed from government to make that happen so if I go to Stuart first okay um I sounded really brutal at the start there and I feel really bad because because my first documentary was commissioned by um BBC Scotland so literally I would not have a career if it wasn't for BBC Scotland documentary called Black in Scottish were nominated for two BAFTAs and informed there so if it wasn't for BBC Scotland I wouldn't be sitting here so just want to put that out there I want the best for Scotland and um going forward I was very fortunate to work on an anti boys for Amazon Prime an eel gaming um film it was shot in Leith I worked on that for three four months and I helped provide um Bame talent Bame crew for that production and I did see you know people travelling from London to come and to come and work here yes they were trying their best to to use um Scottish talent one of the directors um Douglas McKinnon is great director um directed line of duty but one thing that always baffles me is you've you've got movies like Batman right and they come over and they lock down the city centre um and what am I trying to say the amount of money behind it and the way that it looks it's just it's got that American look and feel into the American movie I would love to see Glasgow shut down like that but it's a Scottish production company how could that be if it was people from Scotland rather than as going oh my god Americans are here look you know how could it be if it was a Scottish production company locking down or how could it be if it was a Scottish production company locking streets down in New York you see but um I think I think that it's a hard one because it's about it's about skillset and and and the production and the BBC for example the Scottish networks can put a lot more should put a lot more money um for the production companies in Scotland to be able to do things like that because the networks sorry the streamers aren't going to come to Scotland and go I just want to predominantly Scottish team and I want to predominantly make a Scottish film I can say that there's a phone call Loch Ness that that's getting worked on a big there you go a phone call Loch Ness getting worked on and a big American production it's Americans that are making it so I can't really answer your question all I can say is that we do need to put a bit more money into Scottish talent um and try and diverse also diversify our productions so I don't know if I've made any sense there but one but yeah thank you a lot of sense and really really interesting I think particularly a number of things resonate with me one about building careers and building futures for people and that people can stay in Scotland and work in Scotland and enjoy careers as directors and producers on a world stage that has to be an ambition um the work has to be there it's as simple as that for stv I mean I hear his head of news but actually stv is part of that diversification strategy it's about growing the business and there is no reason why stv studios which is a production arm of the company which is set to quadruple revenues uh next year can't be making big films and big productions for the global streamers and they can be they can be here in scotland and they can be further afield and there's been a commission for uh apple tv I think it is it's Peter Capaldi criminal records we've got a fantastic head of drama Sarah Brown who has brought it was commissions actually for channel four which was screw which was filmed at the kelvin hall in Glasgow that's in its second series fantastic returning series um many of the people who came in and worked in school were trainees uh we had a part of part of the the trainee program was actually for ex-offenders it's about bringing people into the business who have not been in the business before far too often to get a job on television you had to know someone you had to be in the right place at the right time well that's luck that still happens but you had to know someone that should not be the case so I think we're not as big as the bbc in terms of our wider training programs but there's a conscious effort to ensure that the door is open to others and that when people come in there is a responsibility when they are in stv on it may be short term contracts but that we can work together with other producers so that we can build a base of skilled people that don't frankly have to leave scotland and head to london to continue with their jobs um what I would also say and just that diversification strategy other like returning series is we've got coming back at stv uh we've got catchphrase I know it doesn't might not set everyone here I like but people watch it it's great isn't it do you watch it yeah my my um because you watch it as well oh good yeah good isn't it great isn't it because you're still watching tv too maybe go on to that point the wider point being it really resonates with me what you see about you know building that production base that's out with news I've been very fortunate in terms of news if you go into news in scotland and you stick it in it and you work hard there's still you know brilliant careers within news and I was fortunate it wasn't have a plan to my life 30 years on I'm head of news but it's important for me to be here today to say you know encourage those and the audience who want to come into the industry but it is incumbent upon those who who make the decisions and support the industry that the right decisions are being taken um Philip do you want to reflect on the policy side of how we grow grow this industry maintain this industry and the skills aspect of it well I do I do think there's been a major change in Scotland you know having studios which 30 years ago were being discussed but no action was taken uh is is is a big plus um I think um there is a talent base um it is better supported uh the the arguments in Scotland in relation to funding are always um we need our share a proportionate share of what's spent within the UK and I think that argument will never go away but I think the there have been big changes and I I would say that um if you look at the way in which uh Salford keys has become if you like the second production centre in the UK uh at a time when Scotland actually did occupy that position and in terms of the regional politics of the UK this has been hugely significant and I don't think uh Scotland has recovered its position by any means um since that happened so I think um you know where we're where we're getting at in this discussion I think is that we're talking about the way in which global markets are affecting what goes on in the UK uh they're affecting careers they're affecting budgets uh they're affecting ambitions and then within the UK itself uh there are changes going on the so-called levelling up is not actually working um in fact there are many reasons to think that levelling down is is continuing so what happens in the creative sector is far from immune from what happens within the economy as a whole so I think um you know this is not sounding uh a kind of uh a doomful song you know it's it's not like that it's it's better than it was but it's all about relative positions and the relative position is not great in Scotland in my candid view you know and I I think actually that the the eye has been taken off the ball there really has not been enough I mean it you know within the devolved settlement that Scotland has uh Scotland does control its cultural policy and I don't think there's been enough discussion about how that might be used perhaps more effectively even given the fact that uh broadcasting is um a reserved matter that is you something that belongs to the UK Government rather than to the Scottish Government and you know there have to be ways around this and particularly in a changing marketplace it can't all rest on what's done in the public sector it you know there have to be ways of devising um attract the attraction of of new business which which circumvent the kind of constraints that we've had for decades now look um you you mentioned specifically um the the some of the programmes not reflecting what you see as Scotland and obviously um the BBC um has one of the the most important roles as a public sector broadcaster with regards to commissioning I just wondered if you could reflect a bit more on that and maybe say a bit about um the uniqueness of BBC Alipa and the commission of Gaelic and Scott's language and other programmes and what difference that makes to to what you see as the cultural landscape of broadcasting let me take that in two parts and and tie that back to what you were saying originally about when studios first opened what content was being made there and I think success breeds success Scotland was able to show very quickly it was a great place to make television but there were only a couple of studio facilities both inside the BBC's building at Pacific Key and now thankfully we have through through other public investment and private investment a much bigger studio landscape in Scotland and what it turns out we are particularly great at making is the kind of shiny floor show entertainment programmes so things like the hit list eggheads that sort of stuff that the skills in Scotland are very very good for making that and many many of these sort of entertainment programmes are now made here but you wouldn't necessarily know that it doesn't necessarily reflect our life but I wouldn't argue against it it's great for jobs it's great for people developing their skills and and why wouldn't we want them here if if people are wanting to come and make television here yet bring them in now I'm all for that I think there's been a a real sort of ballooning though in in drama in recent times that does reflect our lives I'm thinking of things like Shetland which is now about to return for its seventh or eighth series with a brand new lead character in fact when it next comes on which I'm really looking forward to I know some people will be tutting at the lack of Douglas Henshel in the room but give it a chance see what it looks like when the new series starts there's River City which has now been on air for 20 years as a as a drama reaching parts of our audience that our other drama doesn't reach and is a really valued important part of the TV landscape for people in Scotland there were dramas like Vigil set on the the submarine and if anyone saw that uh slightly odd references to the Procurator Fiscal Service and so on but generally quite reflective of of how that part of Scotland works there was the cry with Jenna Coleman this the story about the the sort of car accident and other bits and pieces there or or there was the sort of heartwarming and heart-rending Mayflies which is a fabulous bit of content and if you haven't seen it see that Granite Harbour which ran just a few months ago reflecting the north east of Scotland to the world and as someone who was on air on north sand radio in Aberdeen for a long time it was just fabulous to see parts of the Granite City literally reflecting itself on TV screens all around the United Kingdom on iPlayer and beyond and then in Gallic obviously money is really really tight but it doesn't mean it can't have those big cultural interventions as well. On Rydian a Gael there's some some drama running at the moment trying to commission new writers in Gallic which again nobody else would be doing without public investment but but there has also been drama on our BBC Alibar service the the most famous one is probably Bannon which was made by Chris Young an independent filmmaker Chris made the in-betweeners for Channel 4 but Chris's view was not only did he want to make a Gallic drama he wanted to make it in Sky where he grew up so he moved his production company there hired local actors local filmmakers and brought his Channel 4 filmmaking skills into Sky and has exported that to other places around the world where they have for one of a better way of putting it minority language television services so Bannon has been sold into a Breton TV service in France as far as I know and it's also been sold into Germany and so on so we are taking items that reflect Gallic culture and taking them to to our European friends which I think is again only possible with that public investment I think Gallic would be in a really precarious position without the investment of public media keeping it alive I spoke for a while to the people who run the Gallic medium education school in Aberdeen it's a really thriving primary school but in the wider community Gallic is hardly spoken at all and if it wasn't for BBC Alibar these children would have really no community exposure to the language that they're learning in so again without that public intervention where would that be? Thank you I'm going to ask one more question and then we'll maybe move to some contributions from the audience but the other change in our habits if you like it was a time when we all were watching the same four channels of a evening those days are long gone but we still have the opportunities for big consumer experiences and festivals the cycling competitions that are on across the UCI and been across Scotland at the moment really really really important and other things like the coronation that are significant historical events and I just wanted to ask if you felt that people felt differently about those experiences now has our attitude to those kind of events changed or is there still a place do you think we will always be a place for a public sector broadcaster and use streamer or whatever to cover these events to the extent they were I'll come to you Linda first on that. Interesting question, it's a question that we could all answer. Do we sit about talking about the TV programme that we watched last night which we're used to do all the time you'd go into uni or work or school and did you watch this, did you watch this, did you watch this now it is more fragmented that said people have when we spoke about digitalisation people've got their own communities in a way that you might go and look online and try and figure out I mean I know I did it when when it was um line of duty you know who was ex I was I have to find this information out and you had to wait until the sunday night so from a scheduling point of view that was great scheduling I would suggest and we all as as a kind of TV watching community you know built towards those moments and you still get that it's just it is just changing now in terms of news I think that in the past year we have some incredible moments we have had a changing of a monarch and only public service media would have covered that event at the scale and the depth and the breadth that that happened and that was years and years and the planning and I know Luke you'll have colleagues that have spent their entire careers you know decades decades right now you know you can argue the toss around the the the amount of time spent on it but as a piece of history which it was and the commitment and investment that went into it I argued they are hugely hugely important moments on another scale and on a personal scale Glastonbury was fantastic it was a joyous occasion it was wonderful and it was I was delighted to see that the BBC were there and they were broadcasting it in all their different platforms fantastic moments public service media will do that big streamers won't so that's what's really important and from where I sit in news news attracts the biggest audiences night after night last Friday night 39% of people in scotland were watching stv news at six 39% that's big that's not a coincidence it's because the news that we produce is relevant it's reflecting people's lives it's reflecting what goes on at parliament not just this parliament the parliament's at Westminster it reflects what's going on in our hospitals in our schools it's holding people to account it's reflecting sport and it's reflecting what we're also laughing at during the day our lovely unfinallies so it's no coincidence that people tune in for strong high quality news and that's what public service media does and it needs to be protected clear I've got quite pointy heady there I think what you're really wanting to notice do we miss those big moments yes you know I think schedulers have to work hard they got to get creative that's why you have commissions on you know turnaround programmes you know the bake off people tune in they invest in it the reality tv it might be for some of you in this room I know clear we spoke before and I revealed I was a fan of big brother not so much of love island love island attracts the viewers people want to see that that's the moments and the people will talk about so a whole gamut there for us to to choose from they are being produced by the the broadcasters in the nations yeah so well I I do think the you know what Linda was talking about that really does matter is that some of the very big moments you know are still common moments but the bit the major change that's happened is that there are relatively few moments that are common moments um and that's for a whole plethora of reasons you know one is we actually live in a very divided society and I think one of the aspirations for public service broadcasting is it's going to heal the divisions of the society and I think you know I think the tenor of our discussion so far is that it's less and less able to do that it's certainly true that 39 percent of people were watching stv news but who are those people you know it's it's not the young youngest generations who's actually being addressed you know I think you have to look at how consumption has changed whether people go to linear tv whether they go online whether they get it from a social media source you know these all matter the the the ways in which we consume matter because it's not the basis of a common conversation actually if we um if we consume diversely and we're not going to go back to that that's done and dusted with so the the the big challenge I think is you know how many times can you have a coronation a queen's funeral or glastonbury you know these are these are these are occasional events and some are very occasional events um so I I think the the big challenge is how you have a common conversation uh you know and and here we are in Scotland where you know we've we've we've we've been having a sort of pretty cross diverse conversation you know particularly since the independence referendum you know that's that's not changed there's been brexit which has left you know major scars I think on on the body politic in the UK there's been the impact of covid which has actually changed the way in which people behave and think you know so we and and and then there's the the kind of economic crisis now all of these things actually shape how we interact with the various kinds of media that we have and um all I'm saying is it's complex no simple solutions but um if we want to start thinking about this we need to take the complexity into account and not kid ourselves thank you look just just before um I asked you to comment on on on that general principle I'm thinking about one of the things that I think um from a more shocking point of view the the nation did actually have a a communal response to you was um when the war in Ukraine started and we did have an intense coverage of that for a long long time but over time it tails off and could you just maybe explain to us why that happens in the news cycle and what you think um changes that take something off the news agenda um in in terms of these big items as they happen I'm sure Linda's got a view on on that as well but I think the the the clue's sort of in the question it is a news cycle and and news is news there are new things that happen and there's an element to to the crisis in Ukraine that has become largely similar each day very small advancements very small changes and it doesn't mean that the broadcast is both ITN and the BBC aren't there they're still there with the resources that they had but there's other things happening that are that are moving them off as as philip said we've had a a range of moments in our society in the last sort of eight years that that if you were to go back 20 years and look ahead you wouldn't have believed what what we then had and I think the news agenda gets really really competitive in terms of the actual shelf space you've got to cover things and people in Scotland are deeply interested in international matters so that I think is a very fair question and and there's obviously been a lot of Scottish links with Ukraine in terms of how charities and other organisations have tried to support the Ukrainian efforts so it's then what do you do with that news cycle how do you bring something different to it to help keep the story going to help keep it alive in the minds of the audience there is some research that some people don't want to keep hearing grim news so how do broadcasters react to that if people only want good news and yet the things that are happening are things like the war in Ukraine there's almost a disconnect between what some people want from their news cycle and maybe that's one of the reasons they're turning to to social media for news but but it isn't news in terms of what's happening in Ukraine or in Russia or elsewhere it's news about skateboarding cats and that's what some people are calling news and and it's a it's a really really tricky cycle in a tricky moment but but ultimately I think the cycle just moves on other things happen okay thank you um Stuart you as a documentary maker um you're maybe not happening at an event that happens in time if you like it's a different slightly different mechanism for you to get your message across but notice that there's other providers are available but sky has an advert at the moment sky glass where you can join a family member if you you have a camera and have that still a shared experience so um what's your experience of how people respond collectively to to the to the um the documentaries that you make and is the does it build a community behind it yes i would i would say so definitely um obviously you have your spaces you have you know your social media your your facebook your instagram um actually i'll give you a story there so the documentary black and scottish just prior to that coming out you know you have your hashtags so you have hashtag black and scottish so i did a search on instagram and social media and there was no hashtag black and scottish now this thousands so um people mothers and you know ethnic minorities started to share the content and take little snippets from what we did as well we we made um one minute snippets on each subject let's say you know cultures more racism or whatever it may be love of scotland and they did really well they got over a million so so instead of people having a link to the half an hour documentary we're giving them social media snippets as i call it that will then take them back to linear television or take them to to um BBC iPlayer so a community can grow and that's that's kind of indirectly our new watering hole in a sense where you would um where you would usually we would channel hop and we would watch um a show and then the next day where we're talking about it but now that that narrative lives in the social media space which is a good and bad thing because you know you kind of have to search for it you know you have to you have to search for that if you're interested interested in it and when i talk about when i talk about spaces what i'm meaning is we all have a um a television show or whatever show on television or a streaming service that you recommend to someone else whereas before when we used to channel hop as we said we had channel with a BBC one to to um channel five we don't do that anymore um and unfortunately unfortunately what we need to do is from a digital perspective is as as um philip was saying from a digital perspective it's going nowhere so we need to try and find a way to have conversations about the content that we've that um we've watched where does that where is that space um do we have a lot more dedicated spaces on things like twitter and instagram does bbc scotland does this tv do we do we put more money into social media um going forward so we can have those those discussions that's the only thing um that i can see but it is a good thing because the difference back then when i'm showing my age now let's say in the 90s you would tell someone about uh you know tell something about a show they would then tell someone else now you can just put out a hashtag an x amount of thousands or millions people are looking at it so there's positive and negatives there thank thank you very much um yeah absolutely i think another thing is you know straight you spoke there about the documentary black in scottish now i remember when it did first air was actually my children draw my attention to my children are black and scottish and that yeah and it was the title and actually what you said there about then searching online and then finding that that conversation and that identity and it hadn't first of all it came i think from obviously the commissioning from was it bbc there that commissioned it so you know linear tv but then you know and it came i think did i have a resurgence again after george floyd in 2020 that's when it didn't yeah sorry we'll let me just have this personal conversation here we're not at the point being that the the idea that you know it is not all lost in young people right television is not all lost but we do need to be out there on the platforms and the media and social media that people are using that conversation has to be had and it takes different forms you spoke there about you know breaking up and giving snacks sizes of what you do we we're doing that in in news i feel like i'm bringing it back to news while i'm heading news i talk here about about news and it is about being absolutely relevant with the audience and i think i mentioned the the figure of 39 percent which you know i'm usually proud of because it reads high but actually you make a very fair point that young people are consuming news on digital and i see many young people here and you know i don't need to tell you that i'm sure you you would be first to tell me that so what we have been doing at stv news certainly over the past five years since 2018 big transformation and you know really accelerated over the past two and a half years is looking at how we move the newsroom from being a linear facing tv newsroom essentially tv newsroom to multiplatform newsroom none of this is new all newsrooms are doing that i see we're not a tv newsroom we're a multiplatform newsroom a really simple way of explaining that is reporters will go out to report on one story and that story will be distributed across a number of platforms so they may make the the six o'clock news that night but actually now we need to be looking at you know push notifications if the you know when the former first minister spoke um when she was resigning the clisturgian you know we put that directly to people's phones it was a press conference held and that was push notification directly to people and they could watch it the part they can become part of that conversation so i use these as examples of what we are doing to stay relevant and stay relevant is hugely important it can't be a one-way conversation news being produced for people who are watching and we do have a very loyal audience who tend to be older so the challenge that we have is maintaining your broadcast audience alongside growing and being relevant with the the audiences that are consuming on all different platforms and those great news moments people do come to the public media provider so we would have had hundreds of thousands of people watching Nicholas Sturgeon's resignation statement on television between BBC Scotland and the news channel we had over five million people access the bbc's news pages that day online to find out the latest to find out what was happening so there is a huge hunger amongst the public still to get that news when it's important to them i think there's been a point on news but it's about remain relevant and i am i am so you know that's the bit that now i take so seriously there is no that we can't just be telling the same stories of yesteryear we have to really look at our makeup of our story selection we spoke there about news cycle i agree with all your points but there is room within that news cycle and agenda to to be editorial around where do we want to put our emphasis particularly in current affairs and that's why we put scotland tonight into our prime time slot but part of being relevant is saying and one of the things that i did is i can have you know it's best to tell this in a story i suppose is news has to be impartial has to be accurate that's a given but what about if news had to be 50 50 gender balanced now some people would say that can't happen because you have to report the news that you see in front of you well actually another way of saying that is maybe it's just too hard well let's try and in fact let's not make it negotiable let's say that we want our news to be gender balanced why because it's really important and it's journalist go out and get beyond always the first people that you see revolutionize your contacts but find interesting voices get into your communities and that was the challenge that we set and we we we monitored it we literally counted our contributors and last year we met 50 50 and that was it was a really really strong achievement and we also do it with other underrepresented groups that we've set ourselves targets not because it's some you know some good thing to do if it's a box taken exercises it's not worth the paper it's written on it's to make the change that is needed and required and to give us much better relevant news and you know that's that that's important to me it's essential to public broadcasters do it the 50 50 things started with a guy called rosatkins who presented outside source on the bbc news channel and he challenged his own production team because he was fed up of seeing other men on his program when he thought there were amazing women that could be speaking just as brilliantly as the guys his production team was finding and it spun off from there and now I think almost all of bbc news and a whole range of other bbc content goes for 50 50 that because as you said not tokenistically it's reflective of the society that we're in one of the things we did do was you know you can set these targets but you also have to be involved very much in the culture change and making it happen and how do you go about doing that and one of the things that we found that there were barriers in people's way for what is it about you know going on to a programme like scotland tonight why are there not more women well we can and i would say that and it does lead wonder over to the production team and say how he's getting on who are you casting tonight he's got x ym zed and you've got no women or we've phoned some people it's been challenging to get them on or and i said well what's going on there you know what what is really going on there and also you know how do we ensure that we are growing our contacts so we ran what's called an expert voices programme and i mean a very practical programme it's a training programme that stv does we do it on zoom we've had a thousand contributors come along and we reach out to different groups um and we we run them in the evening and it's people who work in stv it's run by my colleague Nicola Cain and she brings your hopes in our political editor and she hopes in some of our presenters and they go on and they just talk they talk to people and they say look this is what it's like going on a programme here's what you can do here's how you can get your message over um so that's the training side of it another side of it is it's actually training for our journalists it's actually reach out and look look look for new people you know work with different associations look for speak to people who are in underrepresented groups and ask them what they need and then respond so that's part of that responsibility that comes from public service broadcasting challenge faced by the parliament as well and the work i know i know our outreach team do a really good job in trying to make our events as inclusive as possible and get to those harder to reach communities that haven't had a voice up until now so it's really important i i'm going to open up to questions uh there's um one of our staff members will have a microphone just take this opportunity to thank all the parliament staff for their efforts to read supporting the event and also to say a particular thanks to Heather and Mag who have been um signing for us throughout the event um and doing a wonderful job so thank you very much um so i'll say a hand up here if you want to say who you are that would be be nice you don't have to and if you want to direct a question to a particular panel member please do so but i'll i'll generally assume that you want to hear from everyone thank you i'm Jen Stout i'm a journalist i it's good that we've been talking a lot about news and current affairs as you say it's the it's the cornerstone of public broadcasting public service broadcasting it's it's also like the one island in the scorched earth of scottish journalism that is still slightly solvent and there's still decent jobs in it when when you look at once great scottish newspapers reduced to so much churn very few jobs people mass exodus for for pr jobs just so that people can pay the rent we're really in a bad situation i mean luke you said that you know and we hear this a lot scotland's a very internationalist country and we're very interested in international news we don't have any employed foreign correspondence left in brocat i mean there's quentin who does of course uk news we don't have people employed to tell a scottish audience what is happening on the ground in a major war in europe there's a few freelancers like myself and that's it so are we really an internationalist country interested in foreign news i'm i'm not sure frankly and i think what that means is that there's an even greater pressure on news and current affairs within broadcasting in scotland um to make up the ground for what for what's happened in in scottish newspapers and having worked in in tv and radio i'm kind of deeply worried um you talked about skateboarding cats there's a bit too much of that there's a way too much focus on the focus groups on how will that play out on instagram how will that work on social media and there is a what i saw frequently and this is not to denigrate any of my colleagues because there's a lot of very very good people at bbc scotland but particularly on my management perhaps um maybe not an appreciation of the importance of old fashioned investigative journalism particularly at a local level and that as we know is completely decimated on on newspapers in terms of newspapers you know investigations actually it's one thing to package stuff up that we already know i mean it's fine to have a coronation and so on but the essence of journalism being find out something new and tell people that takes a long time and it takes a lot of resources and my worry is that the value of that is being lost not just in newspapers but in broadcasting as well so i wonder if we could talk about that a little bit thank you thank you i i was a huge topic and moving on to to different media as well um and obviously people are choosing not to buy papers as well which is a change in the consumer habit as well around all of that but i'll i'll come to look first um if you want to respond i think the point around the number of journalism jobs in scotland is is well made uh and and in many ways it's frightening and without without stv and the bbc investing in journalism i sort of should have to think what what would be left not not just newspapers either i think i mentioned before my background was in commercial radio on air in Aberdeen and in Edinburgh and then behind the scenes in both of those cities and when i was running radio fourth here in Edinburgh there were i think 40 to 50 people who had freelance and staff jobs on air doing journalism doing sport and doing presentation now there's a couple of journalists roughly and about five people working on air the number of jobs has has markedly shrunk so there's almost a sort of double pressure i think on the public broadcasters to get it right investigative journalism is really important to bbc scotland our strand is disclosure led by the the fabulous shelly joffery and i think it has generated a huge amount of public debate you often see disclosure referenced here in this parliament actually when it unearths as you said finding new things unearth stuff that that's happening in and around scotland and telling the stories that that nobody else might be telling partly because it's expensive and partly because there's literally nobody else to do it so i think the investigative stuff is is vital and there's a new series of disclosure coming fairly soon on that other point around international i think people in Scotland are genuinely interested in international affairs i think you can see that in in the in the content that's provided i think we do a reasonable job at bbc scotland of doing that partly because we can tap in to a network of foreign correspondents all around the world who are on the bbc's payroll nice you mentioned quenton i was at school at sterling high school with quenton and it just is heart stopping seeing some of the situations that he that he finds himself in but but a great scottish journalist doing amazing things from war zones and famine and people struck by by poverty but when someone like for example orla gearan is on either the nine or on good morning scotland what she's got to say and share with the scottish audiences is highly valued and i value her expertise being part of of the bbc martin geisler as a as a as a presenter based here has that international experience that he's brought back to scotland so i take your challenge when when the nine launched that there was a europe correspondent but she has moved on to to do other things and i think she was the first television correspondent working abroad for any of the scottish news providers television news providers in many many years that that was it was jean mckenzie although she's now the i think south korea correspondent for the bbc and a number of other scottish journalists laura bicker for example have gone off to work abroad scottish voices doing great things but working for the whole of our organisation you mentioned the schools of scotland and i totally forgot that um we made a piece for the schools of scotland um shelly we worked with shelly and one was um escotland racist um that was um my cousin is jeannie hanson she's a television presenter for a place in the sun um and some chana for i should actually know all the shows she's in but anyway she she was the face of it and then we had a young journalist who's in the room who i worked with donald donald mathison he worked on that he actually produced that 22 years old he produced a half an hour piece for the schools of scotland and then there was we made small pieces of content which is one he'd made which was which was am i scottish now that was we that was current affairs we had a great time making it it was it was a fast for me as a documentary maker um i was directing it but it was a faster pace the content had to come out a lot quicker and i actually i was i'm so used to taking my time and you know but with working with shelly and her team what they taught me at the time was how to produce content quickly now from what what you what you are saying um in the sense of it takes a larger team it costs a lot more money i personally think that a lot more money should be put into that because i think what disclosure so what what um that channel what that show is doing is it's providing investigative journalism but maybe we need to put a little bit more money on it so we can turn that out a lot quicker and those smaller pieces that that were made those 10 minute pieces they then went on to BBC iPlayer and social and social media so we do need a lot more money behind things like the disclosure well disclosure here i'd agree with the analysis i i think you're right that there's been a major decline in the scottish press um it's really interesting to reflect on the scottish press pre devolution and post devolution um there really was um i think uh there were great expectations about devolution and what this would do for the printed media which simply didn't come about and what we've seen over time is disinvestment and at the same time um if you like more competition from the london-based uk press uh kind of crowd out effects in terms of the quality that's offered and um i think that that is a serious question if you like for scotland's democracy within the uk um whether scotland um you know can have uh distinct perspectives on the world the international affairs i think is a moot point uh i think some people would be saying well that's not scotland's place but i don't think that's a good enough answer um investigative journalism is expensive the only way you get it is really to have sustained investment um and i think the story that we've been hearing is that we're getting the reverse of that actually so i'm afraid there's not much good news in this particular in this particular story i don't think it's going to get better i think there will be of course occasional flashes of brilliance and uh occasional sustainable excellence but that's the exception rather than the rule and i i think digitalisation of the press of course has been a big factor in addition to disinvestment in scotland and in the uk you know at best nine percent of people will pay for news actually so it's it it's not going to come from us if you like digitally people will not buy digital news actually they just won't um and it's it's it's um it's not that unusual but there are places where the record is a great deal better so i think the question is complicated it's partly about journalism itself it's partly about our willingness to pay and our willingness to recognise that certain kinds of journalism are actually important for us now just leave it on that note because i have nothing very helpful to say to you i'm afraid you know i'm aware of some of the discourse around um certain degree courses particularly down in england about whether or not they should be investing in them and things like that and we still have some some really very very good journalism courses and training in scotland so you want to to maybe reflect a wee bit on that and your your thoughts on the question as well i would say first and foremost it is disheartening to hear about the closure of newspapers and opportunities for journalists i think that's you know i think that it's a hard message um we as a broadcaster are investing in news and we've actually taken on more journalists in recent times so uh but you know i you don't need you know comfort words but i do feel having set out my career wanting to be into broadcasting and getting that opportunity and getting in the door that um i would want to see more opportunities for young people coming in we do take on a number of young journalists um and they do often come from some of the training uh university degrees particularly some of the postgraduate degrees um i don't have that i don't have the answer to this i've got a couple of thoughts on it uh i always say to young people setting out you know you bring yourself to journalism yes you have to be impartial yes you have to be accurate that's a given but you bring yourself into your work and the more experiences that you can have and that you can develop in yourselves i am sure will make you a better journalist so don't be afraid to not do a journalism degree don't be afraid not to do a degree but if you want to go into a degree do something that you love do something that you enjoy you will have you know i would hope a great time at university it's a time in your life often in your early 20s where you grow and develop and you gather your thoughts and then you can come into journalism i found personally some of the postgraduate degrees very good cardiff has been excellent caledonian university has provided journalists in um all of that said i am a great believer in diversity and diversity at all levels and diversity of thought and diversity of roots in you know and i i came up with a big big uh you know number 10 of a living children big working class family but i came to journalism because i had lots to say and lots to write about i had a great you know i had a great a great family to write about and a great community to comment on and that's how i wanted to get into journalism but i am keen that we have uh at the interview stage and at a stage where we're bringing people in how can we get beyond the same type of people coming into journalism and i think we do a very good job at that at stv and i'm determined that we will do more so i don't want to get drawn on specific so specific courses i would say that the people that we have got within our team who have done some of those courses are excellent journalists i saw some hands up there was a uh i'll take the gentleman here in the glasses and then i'll go to the back of the room um i'd be interested in the panellists views on what i perceive as the decline of trust in mainstream news particularly and people using facebook or whatever and almost giving it more credence than mainstream news so comments about that and what do you think you might be able to do about it is anyone anyone want to go first with that story that is not that is not my space i think what you're i think what you're saying is you know you've got mainstream news and then you've got your social media you've got your okay so what they'll tend to do is they'll tend to go into more depth so on social media on place like like facebook and then you've got your small little snippets on news but the way i look at it is i would rather hear from yourself i would rather hear straight from the source rather than a reporter or journalist telling me that story if i can go straight to the source on social on social media and in that space i hear all of the co like what i tend to do is i'll sometimes just go in and read the comments because to me the the comment section is the the gallery wherever you know that's that that's where the gallery is so in a sense of trust from from trust for the the main public sector and news i think that trust is diminished when they get something wrong when they get something wrong and you feel like i don't trust that last story so why should i continue to trust um this this channel so that's my take on it wouldn't you rather speak wouldn't you rather speak to the source or or people close to it speak to uh read up what sorry what i'm trying to say is read up and what another human being is saying rather than a co rather than a news corporation i would prefer the former i don't know about you you lot i think that the public broadcast is obviously on a a very different place from a lot of social media in that that we are regulated uh and i know that off-com are in the room today and and both channel four channel five stv in the bbc have have literal rules that they have to operate within in terms of how they tell stories how they do journalism in a way that somebody on facebook or somebody on twitter doesn't have to do so you think well well surely that would mean then that these public broadcasters are are more trusted because they have the rules and yet a lot of the algorithms on social media now will what once it's worked out that you're particularly interested in one thing and particularly in politics from a particular angle it'll just serve you more of that thing so if you for example if you're you're an snp msp and you follow lots of other snp politicians counselors branch members it's going to serve you more and more and more of that so you see the world through through one particular prism on your social media it serves you more and more of that thing and then you maybe turn on stv news or the nine or reporting scotland and you see that perspective that you see a completely different perspective as well and you think well why are they saying that when everybody thinks it's this because everybody on your social media is coming from a similar part of the algorithm so that is partly undermining trust because people are being exposed to things that are not regulated in the same way that that broadcast media is and i think that is a is a real challenge that then there's the the sort of bad actors out there there are people who are deliberately undermining trusted sources of news and don't get me wrong nine out of ten people come to the bbc every week in scotland for all sorts of things and the bbc is now the most trusted news brand in the united states of america and and that maybe says more about what's happened to the media in the united states of america than it than it says about anything else but you know the the public media the traditional media brands are still trusted but but even this past week there's been a considerable amount of fake news about the bbc two days ago there was an allegation the bbc had photoshopped a picture of nicolas sturgeon outside an airport departure lounge except it wasn't photoshopped it was an image that had been acquired from getty images and nicolas sturgeon had been photographed at edinburgh airport in 2015 the photograph was genuine that there's a whole load of stuff kicking around on social media at the moment saying that the bbc is not covering the uci world cycling championships which which claire mentioned earlier that the bbc is the host of the european broadcasting union at the moment that their centre is in pacific key it was on television on the bbc for eight hours on sunday and it's on television today it's on television this weekend and it's on a whole road of iPlayer platforms and it's been leading a lot of our sports bulletins and yet to follow some people online that and if you follow the people online who were saying it you'd think other bbc doesn't care about scotton they're not showing the cycling except they are to to hours and hours and hours of content and there was a deep fake video of fionne bruce circulating on tuesday and in the end we did manage to get facebook slash meta to take it down but it appeared to show fionne bruce encouraging people to invest in an ai company she was effectively the the brand ambassador for some product she'd a never heard of and b never spoken about but it was deeply convincing and not only of course is that a total problem for us we don't allow our journalists to do that it undermines your trust in her if you think of fionne bruce has been bought by an ai company so that there are lots of threats to the traditional media platforms out there at the moment it's a it's a great question but but i think when you look at a really polarised media market like the united states it's those traditional media providers that are still winning the the trust battle and philip what a nice easy question you've loved us i think the i mean what is trust about i mean trust is really about uh believing in what you're told and it's also connected to your experience of having evidence which supports that belief in other words uh you have to be you have to be inclined to uh i think filter things a bit um weigh things up and also have some sort of faith in the institutions which are delivering content to you and and that's the you know we are in a crisis about that so i think your question really starts to unpack something which is much much wider uh one of the points made this morning is that there is new news avoidance going on around the big study big international study done by the Reuters Institute it's around 30 percent of people in media markets across the world are actually avoiding news because it could be you know it's just too much to take and it's also because sources are not trusted um the decline of trust in mainstream news i think you do need to unpack that a bit i i think it is true at least on the evidence i've seen that the bbc and other public service broadcasters are more trusted than other sources actually so there is actually in the uk quite low trust in what comes out of the printed press uh despite the fact that people still consume it um so uh lack of trust also goes with suspicion of sources and uh in some respects allowing um what you consume to confirm what you believe and of course that's where uh the kind of fragmentation that's been going on and the way in which algorithms may indeed reinforce reinforce beliefs uh has become really important in a way that was not the case say 10 or 15 years ago um i think trust in the news is also highly connected to trust in politics uh to the honesty of public officials and the extent to which they can influence what is said about them and also the interests of the owners of media and the extent to which they can skew the interests of their reporting so i i think it's you've really touched on something that's extremely complicated um why people mistrustful of the press for example well you may recall uh that a few years ago there was a big inquiry um chaired by lord leveson which looked into phone hacking and and uh the intrusion into people's private messages which is a very big issue right now uh when you look at the way in which government is actually proposing to uh leave lawfully hack into uh many messages that we are um actually producing um what's the what what can we do about it uh well one of the longstanding arguments is that we need to improve uh what's called the media literacy of the public in other words we need to understand what different media do we need to understand the landscape that's changing all the sorts of things that have been discussed now um it is uh conceivably you know something that should be part of education uh at every level um we do need to understand what evidence is and what hearsay is and what false uh accounts are and um you know we're also in a in a in a in a situation where there's tremendous anxiety if you look like about bad actors hacking into systems um for the the the the kind of the best example of that but there have of course been others was of course the the role of Russian trolling during the presidential campaign in the USA in 2016 and uh the data breaches that we've just experienced here in the UK um reported on by the the laxity of the electoral commission it seems um you know have opened that box up as well so um your question in a way encapsulates everything that makes us anxious and to which we really don't have very good answers but I think we have to try and we have to try in ways that you know quite demanding which is you know to have respect for diversity of view but not to uh not to uh have such respect for diversity of view that blatant lies will be accepted in the public domain so I'll leave it there it's a long one that one so I did and it squeezed us in terms of uh any more questions I'm afraid but Linda you get the final word I get the final word I was actually going to give you final I was going to ask actually the questioner for the interview on on that particular point do you want to have the final word questioner maybe putting you maybe putting you in the spot there um I mean I think there is a decline of trust in in in public broadcasting I think it is due to social media I find it quite alarming that people I think of as very sensible friends of mine will say did you see such and such on social media it said you know an absolute load of nonsense but increasingly I do feel that the coverage it gets it somehow is leading to people to question much more the mainstream now some of that's good I think that that's great but um yeah a lot of it I think is potentially dangerous as well okay I think I could bring that back together I'm not sure you're a fan of the social media but I think you may be interested you're heavily I'm I'm sure I know that you are heavily involved in politics and current affairs and engaged um I think this has been a great discussion we've covered so much ground we've spoke about the challenges for public service media at the moment for the need to grow the creative industries for the broadcasters in scotland to play their part for the audiences to play their part to tell us where they are viewing and wanting to have their news and their programs delivered to but it opens up a whole new landscape for us to work within and I think that there are so many areas that we can work together on but I think very good to discussion today so I am absolutely out of time apologies to those that I didn't take particularly I think your your colleague that you mentioned earlier Stuart who wanted to ask a question maybe we can have a chat afterwards but thank you all for contributing I've been interested in in today's event it's been absolutely wonderful can you please sew your appreciation to Stuart, Chesemirey, Linda, Graham Struglass, Luke McCulloch and Professor Philip Schlesinger again thank you to um our signers and the staff who have supported today and to the University of Glasgow who have enabled this event to take part take place today um can also remind everyone to do please give us some feedback through the event vibe forms or from the the forms that have been issued downstairs today um it's something that we love the festival politics we want to make it as interesting for you as it possibly can be so please give us your feedback on that and an opportunity to remind you that there's a lot more happening today we have Michael Portillo later this afternoon and I'm posting again sharing the future of Scotland's arts and culture at 5 p.m. and tomorrow um panels on migration ethics and artificial intelligence something I did want to go on to but there wasn't time today and um the future of Scottish music venues so a lot is going on in the cultural sphere in Scotland and again thank you all I hope you have a wonderful day at the parliament thank you