 I did actually want to take a bit of time I suppose in the discussion to focus on what I think was the defining certainly political event of the year, which was Russia's war of aggression and Ukraine as as you alluded to I mean, and I suppose, and for that we're absolutely is one of the, if not the leading expert on Eastern European politics within Ireland. You lose this I mean, but I mean, how did we get it so wrong on this because I know I know there were so many different assessments, some people were saying you know, it will, it will happen but will man the invasion and then others, you know, people who were well respected in the political community, and within the political community also saying, and that this wasn't going to happen and that this was just more saber rattling how, and, particularly in that section did we get it so wrong. Well, yeah, I mean this time last year we were all thinking about what Putin wanted as I didn't said there was a mass mobilization around Ukraine and question was will he won't he, and I didn't is absolutely right I mean like if we had listened to the neighbors and listened to the neighbors by a house what you do you always ask the neighbors but the people living the house are like, if we'd asked the neighbors and listen to the neighbors in Latvia and Poland in Estonia. We wouldn't be where we are today I mean Nord Stream to this pipeline that connects Germany directly to Russia which will never open. It seems was, you know, finalize after the war started in Ukraine because this is February wasn't the beginning of the war Ukraine this was an escalation of a war that started in 2014. And there was a Faustian pact in your people didn't want to believe, because they had an interest in not believing that Putin would do what he wanted to do that he was as and there was all the evidence there you even going back to when he became president I mean he was there was an injection that was his first war he was barely awake week in the Kremlin when he he saw to annihilate the judging people, a small people, you know, less in size and population than than double. And, and then of course there was the war in Georgia in 2008. There was of course creamy and donbass in 2014 there was Syria. So you know there was a lot of evidence there. And then there was the saber rattling us around Ukraine but why we got it so wrong in Europe collectively as I said it was it was largely because Europe had got itself particularly a certain select country of countries have got itself into a dependency on Russian energy and and had refused to believe that would the notion of German there's a German phrase which I don't speak German so I can I only give you the English rendering but it's it's something like, you know, change through engagement I mean it's somehow Russia would change by this, this engagement and this business with Europe so. Yeah, I mean, Europe has a lot to answer for, but Europe has collectively tried to I guess, catch up now, and energy is a big part of it I mean we have to find alternative sources of energy and alternative, you know, types of energy. It's, it's, it's another I told you so I guess are those who've been arguing for green energy, because most, most of the sources of energy are from automatic powers and even the countries that are looked at to replace Russia are also autocratic dictatorships just perhaps less threatening to Europe in terms of territorial imperialism so so yeah Europe is in a difficult place this is ultimately a war not just about Ukraine it's about a much larger issue it's an issue that involves Europe as a whole. It's one of a democracy in perfect as it was and is against a dictatorship and Ukraine has had five changes of government in the last 20 years whereas Putin has remained in power during that period is a dictatorship so. You know, people are always asking, you know, can Ukraine win this war and I often say that Ukraine has to win this war I mean it's not least for the Ukrainian people themselves I think. When the war began back in February I remember it very well I had a friend from Ukraine staying with me in Glass-Neven. And he went back to Ukraine three days before the war broke out nobody thought this was going to happen. I think all of us thought that Ukraine would be overwhelmed within a couple of weeks. What's remarkable is that 2022 is coming to an end and we've seen the liberation of Harkiv we saw they pushed back from Kiev remember when they, it was that 70 kilometer convoy outside Kiev. We've seen her son liberated the military momentum certainly has been with Ukraine for some time which is why now during this winter, Putin has sought to weaponize winter and to freeze the Ukrainian people into submission. But I'm in daily contact with people in Ukraine they certainly show no sign of giving in, and they certainly are confident that that's the big difference I think between now and February is that you know Ukraine is really believe that they can win. They have a Ukraine to look forward to, but what type of Ukraine emerges will largely depend on events in the coming months. And I suppose, given given your expertise more broadly in terms of Eastern Europe obviously of other countries as you mentioned Georgia, and you've multiple there as well obviously at the at the front line of this war as well. How has the war do you think changed the attitudes in these particular countries, perhaps also with regard to potential EU membership in the future. Well certainly I think Europe looks at Ukraine at Georgia at Moldova in a way that it didn't look, you know before the war. And Ukraine as you know in Moldova now our candidate candidate status they achieve that some months ago. Georgia has kind of a shopping list of things that needs to do to get that candidate status. But the neighborhood as well perceived that Russia is is declining as I mean I lived in Central Asia for six years Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. They have lived under the shadow of the Kremlin for many years as well and and their attitudes are changing, because these are you know former parts of that Russian Empire so they also see Ukraine's victory as their victory because they fear that if Ukraine doesn't win that you know they could be next as well. So, so no I mean it has had a huge impact and I wasn't Georgia twice during the last month and hundreds of thousands of Russians have led to Georgia. Since September since that mobilization mainly young people mainly well resourced they're buying a property, renting accommodation but they're the kind of people who who never thought that they would be affected by this war. So, relatively after middle class, technically adept, because there was an internal colonial dynamic to this war as well. We look at kind of the, the Russian Ukraine imperial dynamic but within Russia, and it's the same mistake we used to make during the core war I mode enough to remember when we used to talk about the Soviet Union as if it was only Russia. We do the same with Russia Russia is made up of 150 different nations, you're 80 times more likely to be on the front line if you're from Boyatia than if you're from Moscow even though Moscow is the most popular spot. If you're from Dagestan north Caucasus so they're, they're bringing up the ethnic minorities and pushing them into the meat grinder. And it's only when that partial mobilization call came in September the people in, you know, relatively African parts of Moscow said maybe I could be maybe my children could be called to this war. So it has had a huge impact in in not only in Ukraine not only in Europe, but in the near abroad as it's called and within Russia. Yeah, that was the next question I was going to ask you in terms of the impact that you think it's had in Russia and obviously, you know, people talk. Is there potential that there could be political change in Russia and as a result of all of the families of the, the soldiers who gone abroad to fight in Ukraine who died, and that wider societal impact that it's had with Russia. I think it could and and if it happens I think we won't get much advance notice and the same way that the Soviet Union collapsed so quickly with the whimper rather than the bangers that appeared. It was it was essentially when people lost confidence within the Soviet Union of the Soviet Union collapsed. Similarly, I think there's there has been an ebbing away of food and support I wouldn't underestimate though the level of sport that he has traditionally enjoyed war in a way that has harnessed conflict in a way that has served his political ends in the past but that's always because he chose relatively short and expensive win over wars. This doesn't have any of those characteristics which is why he's under unprecedented threat. Dictatorships have much bigger risks and democracies when they go to war democracies can go to war and lose America as we know does it quite regularly. But if you're a dictatorship think of Argentina 1982 in the Falklands war the dictatorship collapsed shortly after losing the Falklands war, because dictatorships rely on coercion. They don't have democratic legitimacy. So, you know democracies usually are all you know that there's a there's a process whereby war is declared, which has a certain degree of legitimacy but when dictatorships have this kind of monopoly of course of power and if they're perceived to be weak and nothing gives you that impression more than defeat in the war. And that's when they're most vulnerable so, unlike in a democracy, you know people retire they write their memoirs they spend more time with their families in dictatorships. Usually it means losing everything, including perhaps one's life and legacy and put knows that he's wagered everything on this war, which is why for him is to the bitter end but I have been spoken with people in Russia and people who have played Russia. They're not willing to wager everything on this wall. I suppose turning now to one of the other topics that's been very prominent, particularly in the last number of months with obviously the World Cup in Qatar which was awarded back in 2010, but I started recently. And a lot of tension being drawn to some of the human rights issues and some of the concerns, particularly around migrant workers in Qatar so I know I know Mark, you're here today. You, you obviously have a lot of experience covering issues around corruption within within football in particular. I wonder if you might speak to some of the some of the issues that we've seen in the power over the last while associated with the work. Yeah, I think from Qatar's perspective, the World Cup's been absolute success for them, you know, in terms of bringing in, you know, fans from around the world globalize, you know, billions watching on TV. I think for FIFA, it's been an absolute disaster, you know, it's in terms of its reputation just when you thought it couldn't get any lower after the bladder era. Era, the era of errors. We have Gianni Infantino, you know, coming out on the eve of the World Cup saying, you know, today I feel most of them might feel gay, I feel like an immigrant worker, you know, and you know, bladder at the height of his powers wouldn't have been, you know, So I think, you know, in terms of corporate sponsors or, you know, associations, and, you know, in Western Europe or in the parts of the world, you know, the reputation of FIFA has only sunk, you know, through what's happened and we've seen even you know, with the arrest of Eva Calli in recent days, the Greek MEP, the one of the Vice Presidents of the European Parliament, the Qatar has been engaged in this global campaign of propaganda, Re-weaponizing propaganda, like I had some experience of this myself, a few years ago I wrote a story highlighting how gay and transgender people will be treated, you know, and the concerns that fans will have going from Western Europe or America going to Qatar and how they'd be treated. And you know, I immediately got a phone call from a PR agency in London who was working for Qatar saying, you know, this is all Dubai black arts, you're swallowing the propaganda trying to, you know, not addressing any of the issues, you know, I think it was beyond time for a Muslim country to host the World Cup, it was beyond time for a Middle Eastern country to host the World Cup, but just the way it happened where it was undoubtedly wide-scale corruption, that FIFA senior officials were bribed, it's been shown quite clearly, you know, whistleblowers have come forward with, you know, overwhelming evidence that this happened. So, you know, we had Russia and then we had Qatar award at the World Cup on the same night. So, you know, FIFA had many opportunities to reverse that decision, you know, and I think, you know, there was way more deserving countries, like, you know, from the Muslim world, like Morocco, we've always seen their football team doing so well, you know, they've been at the World Cup, but they didn't splash the cash like the Qataris did, and stuff envelopes full of cash to various FIFA delegates. So, yeah, I just think FIFA's reputation has been further slowly, but I think, you know, for, as we've seen with Putin and, you know, I would work in rehabilitating his reputation post-Crimea in 2018, that really worked, I think, and it helped, maybe people see him in a better light, up until February of this year. And, you know, for the Qataris, it's had a similar effect, you know, there is, it has had positive effects. Obviously, everyone's aware of the issues, but how they treat the immigrant workers, you know, they're not unusual in how they treat LGBT community, but it's good that can be highlighted. But I think, you know, a lot of what they've said has just been propaganda, you know, and unfortunately, I think it's worked, you know, it's now more of a destination. It's, you know, it's seen the same kind of realm as Dubai and the UAE. So I think it's been a success for them, and unfortunately, it's furthered the beautiful game. And look, on the football side, it's been an amazing World Cup, and I'm one of those people, you know, I'm sick by back teeth about how it was awarded, but, you know, I'm not going to turn away and not watch the football, unfortunately. And they know that, you know. Yeah, well, no, exactly. I was going to ask you, do you think football is permanently damaged by this, or do you think it will survive? I think it's lost a lot of people, you know, who'd be, you know, I'm a die hard fan, I'd watch, you know, any team play another team, you know, like, I'd watch it. I'd watch it. I was playing a dark, cold night against an expert, you know, so I'd watch any kind of standard of football, but, you know, seeing, being like the likes of Mbappe and Messi do their stuff, it's like, you know, it's compulsive stuff for me to watch. But I think, yeah, it has damaged, it has further solid football's reputation, though, and as a global game and, you know, the standards, and they're not the only sport that's taken the dollar, the oil money, or the gas money, as we've seen with, you know, all the sportswashing that's happening, with Middle Eastern money, whether it be Newcastle United or, you know, with the golf tour as well, you know, so, but yeah, I think it's bad for FIFA's reputation, and bad for football's overall reputation. And, you know, the fact that in Fantino was the only candidate going forward for, you know, a new term just shows the underwhelming nature of the talent ambition that's there, maybe to reform football, you know, that he's someone that served under Michel Platini. Who left and disgraced, and, you know, he's there, and he's disgracing football, I think, every time he opens his mouth. And, you know, he's happy to sit, whether it be with Mohamed Ben Salad or Ed Putin, and, you know, no one is going to run against him and say, look, I'm running on a clean ticket here, because no one is clean in global football, unfortunately. Yeah, no, and it really is extraordinary to reflect on the fact that the 2018 World Cup is held in Russia and now, obviously, in Qatar then and this year as well. So, and I think the next one is USA, Mexico and Canada, so at least, I suppose, less controversial there, but maybe turning to yourself now, Patrick, another event of the year which, which got a lot of coverage, particularly recently as well, and which got you kicked out of the Green Party for a few months as well was the legal challenge that you took against the comprehensive European trade agreements, the trade agreement agreed between the EU and Canada. So, I suppose the Supreme Court ruled recently that it couldn't be implemented into Irish legislation, the High Court of Privacy ruled against that particular finding the Supreme Court overruled it. And I suppose, would you be able to elaborate on what you think are some of the necessary amendments that you think need to be made to see that, or does it need to be scrapped entirely. Well, just to start, what got me thrown out of the party was, was voting on the right way was the wrong way. Yeah, voting the wrong, not the way I was told it's put it that way. And some people tell me it was the right some people tell me it was the wrong way but it was the National Maternity Hospital that kicked out of the party. My legal challenge did annoy people. He's back in now. I missed this, but he's back in now two weeks ago. The legal challenge did annoy some people in the party but didn't get me kicked out. And, and I think, I think I kind of want to take a moment as well just before getting into the case. I think one of the things that's really important for me in terms of this case is what it actually shows about access to justice and independent judiciary and how fundamental they are, you know, and I could talk for hours about that. I won't, you know, but I think we're going to see stuff around access justice, judicial reviews, the planning reforms. In coming year time months, we'll hopefully see stuff in civil legal aid as well. And these are really things, you know, there's not enough judges, there's not enough courtrooms, all of that. And that was kind of the ecosystem that allowed this case to even happen. And I'm talking about, you know, the importance of democracy and all of this. And I think one of, for me, one of the big takeaways is how lucky we are to have a really strong rule of law in terms of our courts and independent judiciary. What should happen with CETA? What's the amendment that should happen with CETA? For me, I think what's the amendment is the amendment that happened to the Singapore trade deal. And then with 2017 and the courts just the European Union said, because the Singapore trade deal contains trade elements, which are an EU competence, and investor courts, which are a member state competence, and it's a mixed deal, it must be ratified. And we broke these apart. We've ratified the trade elements of Singapore, or, well, they're happening. And we just seem to have shelves put the courts out of the Singapore deal into a bottom drawer and forgotten about it. So I think, you know, the CETA is in provisional application, we're benefiting from the trade elements, let's keep benefiting from that. And the other reasons I say that is, part of the thing is, if any European country says we're never ratifying this, the whole thing's dead. Now Cyprus has voted against it. Now, my understanding is if we change the treatment of halloumi cheese, they may change their minds. Yeah, big, big fan of halloumi cheese, but, you know, so they may change their mind. But the Germans have made moves to ratify us. And that's now being challenged in the German constitution, of course. And that's incredibly slow. So you're not going to see anything out of them for three, four, maybe even five years. But if they come out to the end, say, forget it. No, this is a breach of German law. It's done, go away. Germany has never asked finders. All the good stuff. It could be potentially lost the top. You know, so I think we need to look at this as there are huge existential risks to CETA. So how do you, the trade elements that are in, in, in application at the minute, how do you protect them? And one of the ways is to try and renegotiate and separate this away. And if we look at the United States, Mexico, Canada Association Agreement, the replacement for NAFTA, Canada negotiated its way out of investors, the investor courts in that do not apply to Canada. So I don't, you know, maybe I'm being an element of wishful thinking here, but, you know, it's not impossible to say Canada is all right making trade deals with investor courts. The European Union is all right making them and we like what we're doing in terms of trades. Let's protect that and stick with that. So obviously the government has said that it will make an amendment to the Irish legislation, which then it says it will proceed then with the ratification of the CETA trade. You probably know a question I'm going to ask you next. If they do that, will you vote for the CETA trade agreement? I'm record already saying that I don't support investor courts and I'm not going to facilitate investor courts. I think they're really dangerous to any government who wants to pass progressive legislation and wants to protect its independence. And I think that's, that's the bottom line. But also I think that it's not going to be straightforward passing and we're amending the Irish legislation. The piece of legislation that was picked out by Mr. Justice Hogan was the arbitration act, which is about bringing, you know, transposing the Washington Convention and the New York Convention around international arbitration into Irish law. So if we start messing with the arbitration act or amending that I should be perhaps more generous, if we amend the arbitration act, we may find ourselves outside of the remit of those two agreements. And the amendment that Mr. Justice Hogan was saying was that we should amend it so that the Irish courts remain superior to all these other courts. That may not be possible because the whole point of these agreements is the Irish courts aren't superior and the Irish courts aren't in a position of oversight and the Irish courts aren't in a position to say no, we're not enforcing. The whole point is to take that away. So if you put that in to fix it, you then have this other problem, you know, that you're outside of the agreement of CETA as well. And then even if you do fix that, as Mr. Justice Charlton said, sure, you can fix that you address these, you know, points. We've got six other constitutional problems with this judgment and someone else could come along and it will be someone else can come along and take that a challenge along even very similar lines to what I took. Now the arguments are going to be different because the legal landscape looks different. But I don't think amending the arbitration act is really quite as simple as the summary judgment appears. And as I say, when you dig into Hogan's judgment, he'll take in one part, he'll give in one paragraph and he'll take in another. And then Mr. Justice Charlton, who was the one in the 6-1 decision that said, so it was 4-3 that they couldn't ratify, but 6-1 that you could just do the amendment. He has a lot more problems. And again, there's problems there in relation to our requirements as a member of the European Union. So even if we put in this, that those requirements of membership may counteract this. So it's kind of like trying to bring two positive charges of a magnet together, you know, it's just as you push one, the other moves further away. So it's not going to be straightforward. So to sidestep all of that, let's just break away the investigates and talk in the drawer somewhere. And there's there may be another CJE challenge, not for me, but I'll avoid people that afterwards. I'm not going to claim to be a lawyer and know enough to be able to respond on these, but perhaps some people in the room may have some views on it. And I suppose just in general, if anyone has any questions or any comments they'd like to make to the panelists, please raise your hand. Just to say, like, I, again, I was relying heavily on the legal expertise of my baristers. So I must thank them and the support of the other half of the link when I, you know, said we're going to sue the government and the house may be at risk. And so, you know, I'll try and answer the legal questions as well, but you know, I may have to refer you to my senior counselor. And not just legal questions, but questions on anything that we've discussed so far. But I suppose cycling back maybe to one of the other defining events of the year was undoubtedly the 45 day premiership of Liz trust, and, or rather the the process that lasted longer than this trust at that time but one of the aspects that I found kind of particularly interesting about this trust and perhaps maybe not so much of a departure from bars Johnson was perhaps a bit like this too but I suppose it was a constant critique on behalf of her and on behalf of the Conservative Party of media and journalists. And I suppose it's, we've more broadly seen it with Donald Trump previously in the United States and with the Republican Party. And I suppose I wanted to go to you Eileen just to get your views in relation to this, this particular point. And how have you seen the relationship during your career between politicians and media and journalists change over over your time being involved in broadcasting. Well, I think Donald Trump and his trust is all a great favor in, you know, in traditional sort of with their fake news and stuff like that the people are returning to a certain extent to the traditional media that they feel they can trust the traditional media. I think, I think it's more, it's the social platforms that are changing things more than traditional media. I mean, we don't have those down in Europe. I mean, I think Kennedy summer school and there were a bunch of younger journey steps on the software team, who were talking about teaching and how they're encouraged to express their own opinions and other that that's enough for me. You know, as far as I'm concerned, we should never know how I feel about the story. I'm reporting off. And if I start keeping now in favor of one, giving an opinion, what happens in two years time when the public has changed and it's all offended. Where's your credibility then. So, that's what I'd be worried about in terms of the way that it seems. Yeah, it's extraordinary year with in British politics, you know, we had the, we had the lunatics running the asylum, you know, so, you know, after Boris couldn't get any worse and then you had the likes of Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Express, and kind of the new broadcasting company like UK News UK, you know, there was talk TV and there's GB news and this extraordinary campaign to row in behind Liz Truss, as he agreed, you know, continuation Boris, continuity Boris candidates. And, you know, unfortunately, I think British media has been like this, unfortunately for and I recently left Sunday Times with Merlock own newspaper and we're lucky enough in all the time. I was there. I was with Sunday Times for 16 years. There was one issue that Rupert had any interest in an Irish politics. And that was a new referendum on Lisbon, where he was very much, you know, I want Sunday Times in Ireland to be the anti Lisbon Treaty party. He was the only thankfully is the only thing he had an interest in. And now Frank is giving it was the editor was happy. That was his position as well. He had issued with the Lisbon Treaty at the time. So the new campaign on that book, when it comes to politics party politics, the newspapers generally in Ireland do not get involved in the campaigning way that he does with Daily Telegraph, you know, which campaigns just superously for, you know, kind of the right wing. One state they call them conservatives. And so I think that really undermines traditional journalism because so so much of their coverage is just laughable, you know, when it comes to politics, you know, the way they make Boris or the built lives up to be this, you know, the new thatcher just really undermines traditional journalism. So it's not just, you know, I don't think just social media, but I see it in Ireland as well. I can see there's young journalists, you know, who will be very profanagell or very pro-shin thing. And it's probably pro-green party as well. And they, like, I'm the same with Eileen. I wouldn't, I think it's as a new before you do not put your politics out there. You know, you go for all of them, or, you know, or treat them all, you know, you know, I treat all, I had a friend in all the political parties and, you know, but I have no problems about writing negative stories about some of the negative stories. I have no problems about doing an interview with them or writing a positive story. It's just a positive story there. But so it really perturbs me to see some of the younger generation behind me, you know, the aren't even trying to mask their political affiliations or who they support. And I think that's worrying because it undermines, like, these are some of them very high-profile journalists and it undermines confidence in traditional media when, you know, there is so much fake news out there when you have people who don't even try to hide their biases. And yeah, I just find that worrying for Irish media. Well, the opposite of that is when I was elected president of the AHA. You know, in my name, you know, the following year and they will start several camera booths and anyway, I would be by the team. And this guy said to me, you know, what's, what's inviting your country and would you criticize your government? Yeah, you do realize that. And he said, oh, do not be afraid. And the clear implication was the team, and they would, but they would never dare to be down to get stuck up. But that's the other side. And that's not that kind of, that's probably. It's, yeah, it's very interesting, I suppose, just in terms of the, the political situation in the UK, obviously, it was a fleeting premiership for Liz Truss, and then we had Rishi Sunak who arrived then afterwards. And I wonder, do any of the panelists have any views on whether he will bring bring about somewhat at least of a fresh start as much as it's possible for the Tory party in Irish UK or EU UK relations, or do we need to wait for for Keir Starmer for that to happen? That's depressing, isn't it? But that's the choice. I mean, Keir Starmer hasn't done anything to justify being Prime Minister, except not being a Brexit heritory. And that seems to be enough. If there was an election held in the morning, he'd get an overwhelming majority that's been imposed or to be believed. I mean, it comes back down to Brexit and what Brexit represented. This is the fifth Prime Minister since Brexit. I mean, I think of Nicola Sturgeon and Scotland. You know, she's been, she's been there for five British Prime Ministers and she hasn't been there in an awful long time. She's been told that, you know, they're not mature enough in Scotland to have a referendum and go for independence when there's a chaos. The place is burning throughout England. You know, Brexit was ultimately an attempt to make Britain great again. It was very much Trump in the United Kingdom and a nostalgia for a time that most people, if they really thought about it, you shouldn't be nostalgic for. We're talking about the British Empire essentially. We're talking about the British disintegrators during the time of another notable event that happened during the year of the death of Queen Elizabeth II. If Charles lives to be the same age as Queen Elizabeth II, I would wager about that was in the disintegration of the United Kingdom, because Brexit was fueled of anything by English nationalism, anti-immigration, but really horrible stuff that we tried to get away with with kind of the European Union project in many respects. And this kind of recoiling back into a very narrow form of community and what it means to be us. And not thinking through the implications, not least for us in Ireland. I mean, it was quite clear that not a moment's thought was given to the implications. The opinion polls again demonstrate that Brexiteers or Tory party voters, which was close alignment in many respects, if the choice was between Brexit and an independent Scotland, they'd happily let Scotland go. If it was peace in Northern Ireland or Brexit, they'd happily say, up you go inflames Northern Ireland, we want our Brexit. So we're in a very strange place because as you know, for most of our history, there was a, well, I mean, Britain was a place that seemed more progressive than the policy in the Republic here. It was a place that people emigrated to because it was a better economy. And there was an asymmetry of power there, which has been completely reversed by Brexit. Now when Britain and Ireland are on the negotiating table, Ireland is there as part of the European Union. And that's been clear. We've had talks about, you know, very important issues for Ireland that we, you know, things like the protocol and things like that. Ireland has got its interests preserved because of the fact that it is on that side of the table. So it's very challenging, but I think it's, you know, it tells you how far we've come as well in 50 years. I mean, you know, we only joined the European Union when Britain was ready to join or Britain was, they were going to allow Britain to join. Remember, we put it forward our applications twice and we drew it twice because Britain wasn't able to go through because of the French objection under President de Gaulle. Now that Britain has left, no one was seriously talking about Ireland leaving our places in Europe. And Britain, as I said, they've forgotten the fact that it may have been a very boring relationship from their point of view with the European Union, but they trade more with Ireland than they do with China, India, Russia and Brazil combined. And that's never going to, that's Ireland. So I mean, when you talk about the European Union relationship, that's the best relationship that ever going to have this idea of going around the world trying to find alternatives. There's some pathetic guy having a midlife crisis thinking there's some better relationship around the corner and everybody observing saying what the hell is he was going on there, you know, and that's the way we're looking at Britain. It's become an object of pity now, which is a very different Britain from the one that many of us grew up knowing and, and, as I said, have many positive features to it. Okay, do we have any questions in the room. I see one hand over here, yeah. We'll get you the microphone just so we can get you on the, on the recording. So, I suppose how much do you feel David Cameron should be taking responsibility for, I suppose, the place that the UK finds itself in, you know, five prime ministers down the line. He, you know, someone would say he was overconfident at the prospect of Brexit being rejected and the UK going on its merry way. I'll defend them for calling the referendum. I just think he handed it to David. I think it was a boy that has to be lamp. I've been in New York for years, watching full British officials trying to do their work in Brussels, when they were being sampled from home all the time. It has always been a problem in the conservative party. So I think it is right to call it, but you're right. He was overcome. He didn't a fight for a good enough deal in Brussels, and he didn't fight the referendum part. One quick point on that is that it shows you the inexperiences well in Britain with referendum they should have talked to us because, because, you know, I've never known a government that's put an issue to the people that it doesn't want past. And that's what essentially Cameron was doing with Brexit. He was saying, I don't want you to vote for this, but here, go ahead and choose, you know, complete inexperience and amateurs and really bad campaigns. Okay. Do we have second question? Yeah. I know you mentioned that xenophobia was actually a main factor in why people voted to view your views. But what, how much of a factor do you think that austerity played and wanted to have a vote against government space? I think as a side note as well, Robert Reich, who is the Labour Secretary under Bill Clinton said that every time that adjournment mentions that we have the highest rate of inflation since the 1970s, we have to say that we have the highest rate of company profits in over seven years. It's just briefly, it's a really good question. And I think you're right, austerity was a factor. But what the Brexit campaign did and people like Nigel Farage did is that they blamed austerity on the European Union and on immigration. And they said, if you don't have the job that you want, it's because of the poll next door. You know, he may have a master's in three degrees and two or three languages and you may just have barely got your A levels. But, you know, he's taking your job. It's right for you as your English living in England. And what we've seen is through the globalization process is the decline of the nation's state. You think back to the 19th century when Marxism started, right? What was Marxism all about? It was creating workers' rights. And then by 1945 it was embodied in the state. The state could protect workers' rights. The state is no longer able to with global corporations and globalization is no longer in that position because these global corporations which sometimes have budgets which are bigger than national budgets can go around and say, if you won't accept our deal, we'll go to somewhere else. And the same way that in the 19th century, the factory owner could simply pick employees off one by one. But that has now happened to countries. But the thing, the only solution to that is to create cooperation among civil society organizations, among governments, which is what the EU is trying to do. The EU collectively tries to get to battle against those trends. And that's why Britain leaving the European Union is going to find the workers. That's the great irony. The people who were most passionate about voting for Brexit in these kind of declining places. The same kind of people who voted for Trump that was built in America are the ones who are going to suffer the most. And the Tories who are leaving the charge in Brexit are all for deregulation and they're not for workers' rights. So it's really a tragic situation. But you're absolutely right about austerity. And about poverty and about all those things. But the thing was is who they blamed. They didn't blame the government in power. They blamed, as I said, well, they were allowed. The political lead blamed it on the foreigners and enough of the political class or the voters went along with that now. I might put that question to Patrick. Is that an image of the building on your question? I saw some data recently that I think it was the median living standards in the UK compared to Ireland are 30% lower for the median citizen in the UK. I wonder if we're just building on that question. Is it a case that perhaps the UK is actually quite a poor country with some people who are quite wealthy? I think the UK is perhaps not. It's listened to its own propaganda and jingoism for too long. And there was an American State Department official who described England as living its Daedalus years. It had flown too close. This was in the 50s after World War II. It had flown too close to the sun and it was starting to fall apart and just hadn't realized it yet. And of course he was talking about the British Empire and then we see all the decolonialism over the course of the 20th century. In some ways that's still happening to Britain at home. It's not the industrial powerhouse that thinks it was. It thinks it is. It's not the global powerhouse it thinks it is. And listening too much. It's still at that Daedalus point. The Empire is gone. But it's still flapping away thinking it can fly higher than it actually can. And just to pick up your point, I think that the point about the European Union, those international organizations are incredibly important because they are, you know, we came together to form nation states for a reason to Britain, you know, I'll leave you to lecture everyone via them. You know, and the same thing applies at an international relations level. And we do need to, and this is why the rule of law at an international level is so important. You know, and I think the issue with Ukraine and the invasion of Ukraine highlights some of the challenges of international law in so many different ways, but we can dig into that one another time. But I do see some some people here, not necessary politicians and standing next to me in the chamber trying to exploit that xenophobic and trying to whip it up and trying to stir it up. And I think that we need to remember that, you know, that solidarity and standing together. And, you know, Ireland is generally a very generous country. It's a generic country that stands together. And if people are going to try and divide us based on where we're from or the color of the skin, you need to call that out and resist it. And I do see some people in the door on the knock, not that explicit xenophobia, but on the edge of it. And we're saying some of those, those kind of things that would would lead me to, you know, there's kind of on the edge of those dog whistles that would lead me concerned. But I think, and I think that's what you need to be aware of. But ultimately, I think for me it comes back to equality, the rule of law, both at a national level and international level. Just building on that, obviously, and some of the scenes that we've seen in other places in relation to Ukrainian refugees and things like that. Do you think we're seeing the emergence of a far right in Ireland? They've been here for a while. They were just seeing them. And look, you could have a whole event, evening event, digging into that. Bus, they've been here a while. And they're just, they're, they're more successful, perhaps recently. Yeah, they've already here. Okay. Do you have any other questions for, okay, we'll take two together since we're coming up for some time. Okay, so just on the idea of migrant worker rights and just to go away a bit from Britain to Qatar, the economist on the 17th of November have written an article in the fans of the Qatar World Cup, and they've written this. The world also looks at migrant migrant workers in Qatar through a distorted lens. For one thing, the Emirates is more open to foreign labor than America or any European country. And the economist said that, whereas hosting the Olympics twice has not made China more democratic, the chance that stage the World Cup has led to an improvement in Qatar's labor laws. So just kind of a comment on that and considering, you know, the more regressive British immigration laws, you know, maybe Qatar, maybe, you know, just to get your overall comment on what the economist said. So the economist said, like, basically, Qatar has had more chance of reform than China. Yeah, hosting the Olympics or of Qatar. Well, yeah, like, like, Qataris are outnumbered in their own country in terms of, you know, there's more immigrant workers. So it's, it's, I don't think I'll be repeating any other country. So the chances of reform are greater in there than there is in, you know, the Bayamoth that is China. But, you know, it's the Qataris have a tight control on power, you know, that they're not going to have an immigrant worker like Rishi Sunak, you know, Stanley, who can be Prime Minister in a generation or you know, Lee of Radker in that case. So maybe, yeah, maybe the chances of reform in a smaller country like Qatar are greater. And, you know, I don't see, you know, them reforming their laws on how they treat LGBT people or, or anything like that happening anytime soon. And I'm sorry, I did say I would take them together, but I didn't. So maybe just yourself and then yourself then and then we'll have one more question. Hi, so this question is for Mr. Costello. So, Percy, thanks for taking the challenge against that. I'm a law student. So it's really fascinating. I just apologize because now you have like 500 pages of judgment to read. So I do want to apologize to law students in general. I'm a bit true of the judgment, but I have to read it for my schools exams in January because, yeah. And so you commented on the rule of law and you said that you're quite happy with the state of it in Ireland. Does it know were you a tad bit that it said it was deemed constitutional in the High Court, and then that there was such a split on certain constitutional issues in the Supreme Court. I think there was a four tree split on one of the constitutional issues. Maybe just the second question. Yeah, you might have more time to think about your answer to that one. So, Kira over here. It's also a question for yourself. So it's a question on trade. So I used to work in international trade. So, very interesting. What do you think of earmarker sir given the most recent election. Okay, and I don't think it's necessarily a problem like what would have been nice was if we had had a divisional high court with three judges and both the state asked for that first. And we agreed with them. And this is just miss president president Irvine said at the time. No, if you want to division court, you should have given me more judges. I'm we all know where this is going so I'm not wasting my judges time. And which I had a lot of respect for because we don't have enough judges in this country. So but look, again, even with judge butler's decision like she found for us and quite a few quite a lot. And so it wasn't a case that everything was thrown and she found for us in quite a lot. And she I think was putting a very invidious position dealing with this huge case she wasn't on the bench very long. And it's a very huge case there was a lot of time pressure being put on us. You know, I think we had four days in the high court in a case like that would normally be given much longer. You know, and so I think there was a, I wouldn't worry about about the fact that the high court. I think it's going to be in the spring court and the other basically, because that's the whole point. And that's, you know, it works that way. And Merck is or is where I have to start looking at. So I'm not, I look, yeah, there are concerns around Merck is or there are concerns, obviously in relation to from a, you know, a climate perspective by diversity perspective. And the, the, not so much Lula winning but both scenario losing. I think that's definitely a positive in terms of those those biodiversity concerns the Amazon, the deforestation, and all the go with that. How that's going to actually impact and play out on these things. I'm not going to hazard a guess on that one, because I think we got to remember that as well. But there's a lot and this goes back to all our points in relation to to private companies and all these things. There's a lot of influences around the government and around that that box them in. And no matter how radical they may appear in opposition, or they're how radical their their emotions on a Wednesday night appear in opposition, as soon as they get in, they are going to feel that straight jacket. And how much can Lula stray from this, I will be interesting to see. Okay, we are coming up just on time now at the moment, but I wanted to put maybe one more question to each of our panelists since we are in the festive cheer coming up to Christmas. But maybe just to where we could cover that there's lots of other things that could come from as well. But maybe just to ask the panelists and I move from left to right with your self fighting. One thing that you're optimistic about for 2023. Okay, I think for myself. For the retirement. We go with maybe Patrick's on course. On a party disco way broadcast kind of way like I'd be optimistic. We have a climate action plan that we're putting the finishing touches to we've had some good climate legislation. I would be optimistic that we're going to turn a corner and be doing even better in our terms clients and I'm optimistic as well that there won't be an election. Because, you know, I don't have my posters ready. But I think, I think, I think, you know, we've a transition ago of he shook this Saturday. The mood music certainly seems that's going to go smoothly the coalition continues smoothly. So you know for me avoiding an election certainly something to be optimistic for. Yeah, it's nice to live in a country where we have a peaceful transition of power, you know, 100 years ago, you know, that wasn't the case that we come a long way so it's in these times where you're, you know, there's a raging war and you're good to reflect on that. So on the football perspective obviously very optimistic about how the Irish women will do in Australia and New Zealand based on Australia next year so whether their manager will be Vera power after the recent news I don't know. I know there are stories but they're a great bunch on the Katie McCabe so despite all the recent controversies I think we've reason to be optimistic there. Maybe in the ruby as well. Yeah, I'm less optimistic there. I've got my hopes up before a year before a world cup and seeing them dash so we see we tend to peak. I was in France before for when we, we just beat George and maybe I still have nightmares about those games so I just worry about us and peak too soon. And speaking of France, do you think they'll do the business on Sunday or do you think it'll be Argentina. I think Argentina will shade it. I think Messi and this guy Alvarez, the forward is just an amazing player and so I think that mixture of young and old is going to be a little bit too much for the durood and the rest of the French. I think I think the Argentinians you know they've faced defeat against Saudi Arabia and you know they know there's Messi's last chance so I think it's going to leave it all out there. Yeah, I wanted more. I've mentioned drew I didn't rate drew for years. And then you know it's amazing how he can be absolutely absent for the whole game and then he just comes up with a bicycle kick a header like you don't believe we're going. He's not he said before I can't change that I'm gorgeous is what he said before so which probably epitomizes the kind of personalities you think that's that he stuns the defenders and it's admiring. Donica yourself. I had a lot of time to think about it and I still struggling to think of something three overwhelmingly optimistic about maybe it's because I'm putting too much on the word optimism I mean I'm optimistic that Ukraine will come out of this this year. And, and, but it's tempered with such sadness that this has happened. And that's why I, you know when I think of optimism I think of positive emotions and, and that's why I kind of it seems to eclipse almost everything. And so, so yeah I mean there'll be lots of as we all have little personal triumphs in our lives that will, you know, make us personally, you know go that little bit of a hop in our step but I think on a collective level we have so many things to worry about in the world. And really I know to be imparting at this time of the year but that's still my overwhelming sentiment right now. It's, yeah, trepidation. Yeah. Yeah, there's a there is it's not a great time in the world, to be honest. It's like the optimistic. We leave it to you to end on a positive note. I'm reading Stephen Collins book at the moment which is fascinating about the whole way the Irish negotiated our way through brexit and protocol. And just there are reports coming out now that the new music is changing because really Irish British relations just given a known past couple of years, and even from Steven book me over at them to the main both kind of socially awkward a bit just did not never, never jazz, but there's a feeling that and me over at her and she's seen that we get along better. There's also the pain that I didn't realize until quite recently reading that. So when they go to European Council, they don't have their advisor system. It's just the Prime Minister is on their own, and Leo kind of fight and that's not the word speaks, but usually the same thing and think on his feet. And so all of that I'd be kind of, you know, and with the 25th anniversary of the good Friday coming up, you'd like to hope and think that we can have it by then. I'm also optimistic about the dogs, Jack and Catherine on that in the background. So I'd be optimistic about that fine. And if you were an arts and fun, you'd be a big fan of the issue of the year. Although some controversy when he defected to Chelsea, I think that time as well but um, well, thank you so much to our panelists for what I think has been a really, really interesting discussion here today. I'm really, really grateful for their time and their expertise. And just to say you'd be very welcome to stick around for a drink. We have Muld wine for the festive cheer that's in it, and some beer and some wine as well and wishing I suppose everyone wishing our panel, wishing everyone in the room a very happy Christmas and a safe new year as well. And we'll see you in 20th anniversary. So thank you so much.