 Awesome. So this is a pioneering prototyping early bird version of victory's brain. It's also just a friendly conversation to figure out what's like, what are some of these things in the middle. And I will likely, if it's okay with you use some of these clips as hey, here's what this thing actually is. And here's how the conversation sort of works and, and so forth. And, and we'll see. But the idea is to sort of overshare a little bit with the brain and to use it as a blackboard for a conversation in some sense. And if you at some point want to share screen share and come in with stuff that you've got or whatever else, because it fits into the conversation, feel free, don't feel don't don't feel like I must show the brain and I've got like, like this compulsion to do so because partly what I'm interested in is making this a juicy and fruitful conversation. So that when we both like hang up the zooms, we're like, oh, okay, that might like, now I know where to go. And Stacy was on a call this morning with, we were with Pete Kaminsky. And I was pursuing some of the how do we make progress on building the little tiles that fit the mosaic. And then he said, well, I'm not sure I'd do that. I'm like, what do you mean? And then he said, kind of need to like paint a compelling vision of where you're heading to motivate everybody think knowledge navigator video. And I'm like, wasn't on my radar, makes complete sense is like looking at my little tiles and mosaic metaphor backwards because I've been coming at it from the individual tiles piece trying to say, hey, programmers, and I'm not a programmer, if you could define program tiles that we can fund somehow they'll come together into this mosaic. And then I don't know did you see the six layer drawing that I did that was sort of the mosaic? Okay, yeah, that let that shows that they're all individual layers. And yeah, yeah, and how to see that and tilt it and turn it and see the connections. And I think that's a part of our conversation here in some sense because, because I have a funny feeling that your tapestry in some senses feels exactly that. Yeah. So so I had you in mind when I started laying it out. I was like, Oh, this goes back to Jerry's picture. Okay, good, good, good. And I'll I might share the screen with some of those images, which are still hand drawn. I've been trying to redraw them on diagrams.net, but I haven't gone back and finished that the diagramming. But but but the idea kind of is to make them available as SVG or some other format files, so that we can in fact, stack them and look around at them. And then and then in a dream environment, in my wish list future in a feature that may show up in the video idea that Pete gave us this morning, you one of those layers would come out of Trove and basically be a map in Trove. And you know, Vincent is like, Well, we already do this little funny, primitive graph view. What else could we do? I'm like, Hmm. You know, and so forth. And then and then how these things connect to each other that's really rich and interesting and becomes a live manifestation of our map. Yes, as opposed to somebody's hand drawn thing that will never be up to date in the future, which is not what we really want. We kind of want a living document. Yep, right? Yep. Okay, so so what's the vision? So I think maybe yeah, well, there's sort of two different, there's many different questions, two different questions, maybe to approach this. I should set up and ask you where you're pointing and what like, like, how you're trying to go about it. The two questions I'm thinking about is, like, what's the vision is kind of the, the, the, the fun big picture kind of question. But then under that, there's the, what's the methodology or what's a way to get there? Or how are you seeing, how are you seeing, elaborating this and getting other people to be like, Yeah, and then jump in and say, This is my part. And this is how I fit. Yeah, yeah. Okay, there's so many layers there, right? Yeah, I like to start big picture and work down. So is that cool? That sounds great. And in the meantime, I'm going to just start a little bit of screen share and then turn it off. But I basically, I basically created a thought called helping communities see themselves and put under it your but the only link I have sort of to your tapestry project here. And that's under you and under where everyone's listening initiatives. And you had mentioned this on our OGM check and call last Thursday, I guess. So I connected that to the OGM multi plane mosaic. And then I just created a storyboard, which is empty right now, but I created a slides deck in which I might start building a storyboard for the knowledge navigator equivalent video for OGM for because because I realized that I'm busy trying to get people to create tiles, but I haven't painted the mosaic yet. Right. And so and so this is as background for a conversation. Yeah. And I agree with Pete on the larger scale that having a vision is important, because it helps in all my time working with volunteer people too. And that's that's what we're talking about, right? It's not one person saying here's where we're going. And everybody goes, okay, I don't agree. But okay, right, right, that we have that people can then decide this I agree with that vision or not. That's the first level of decision, right? And then it's what part of the things that I'm working on fit into the vision of where this is going. And I will then happily contribute those things or not, right? And what parts don't that I'm going to continue to do on the side, so it gives people an independence and choosing whether they're going instead of instead of everyone kind of being in the space of wait and see always wait and see, right? So yeah, I think a vision draws people to trust people in. So for me, the biggest vision that's really come up is started with that conversation about the better verse. So I was just looking at Jerry's brain in terms of the better verse to and I know that Pete put together a whole wiki, you know, massive wiki about it as well. And I think that that if you haven't linked to that yet, I that I would find valuable and Jerry's brain is to have a link to because there's a little more sense making I don't know what the right word is for it, but there's a little more context within what what Pete pulled together for us. So I don't think I have a massive wiki page for the better verse conversation. I know we had the episode I know we had the conversation in the we had that one. Maybe it was there were three I feel like we had three really good conversations and OGM one was the better verse one was more recent and maybe there was a third somewhere along the line and maybe so first there was a metaverse conversation and then two weeks later we did the better verse conversation. So that's these that's these two here. Okay. And then since then we didn't really we had the money and the money conversation that Grace led. Yeah, which was great, but not not what I was thinking of, but not on this time. We might have to talk to Pete about which was the one that he actually I might have it hold on could also have been our sense doing call. It could also have been this one. Possibly. Yeah, possible. So there's useful questions about sense making. This is the is it the call where Ken put these questions in the chat? Here, let me go back to you. Yep. This is the free jury's brain calls for November 22. That's fine. How do we harmonize? Not sure. I just I I still have yet to go back. Oh, that's me playing. I Yeah, you're playing the episode. That's funny. Um, yeah, that was a free jury's brain call. Um, that Stacey said I should watch this. That was a month ago and it's still up. Yeah, I have. Um, yeah, I'm not a Daniel Schmockdenberger spotify podcast, which is still open in a tab in my browser. Sorry, Stacey. Yeah, many tabs open. Um, yeah, so there was another one. Anyway, I think the conversations we've been having around what does this thing look like? What do we want it to look like? And I don't mean it as an OGM. I mean, it as in the shift towards something better. You know, what is the better thing that we're talking about? Um, and that's really kind of where I live all the time. So that's the question I'm always kind of, you know, moving with and and and engaging with and trying to make decisions around. So getting smaller. Now the tapestry project for me is a way that we can use technology that exists today. We don't need to worry about developing something new in letting people, letting communities see their own story, which is the pieces you already have in there. And I think help them to elevate a conversation to another level so we can stop having a conversation at the basic level about what it is that we would like to have happen, which is more individualistic and start to see how it combines together so we can see as a community. What is it that we're talking about? And for me, the way that things have manifested already are say that money, you know, the money conversation where there was that great Miro board that Grace put together or someone, I guess someone put it together, right where you're seeing some of the frameworks that are already being developed, or, or, you know, in in small part or in large part towards helping people understand what economies could come forward that might help, either in small community settings, larger, larger, worldwide settings and everything in between. And I think that those, even though we haven't figured out the perfect answer yet, even just educating people like here are five leading frameworks that are that are leading the thought on where this could go and is inspiring, right? If you're a person that likes economics and this is inspiring, or if you're a person who has a business that's starting to hit up against these issues, going and saying, Oh my gosh, thank God, there's people thinking about this, just knowing that is super, super hopeful. So in my world, you know, as as a real low hanging fruit, I see the tapestry is being a place where we can place some of those resources and make it an immediate sense making research rich environment for people to at least start or at least orient themselves. And then they can decide from there where they want to dive in instead of us feeling like as a community, we're still making the same recommendations and we're still we're still throwing out the same resources because we feel it's important. Each of us feel like it's important that everyone else knows about this. Well, now we'll feel, huh, we've got that. That's checked off. That's over here. It's in our repository and anyone can get access to it pretty easily, right? And find it for themselves pretty easily. So now what? Okay, now what? It's the, what about the people in the room here? What kind of expertise do they have? And maybe I know just a little bit about each person and maybe from what they say in the in the calls I can kind of sense, but I don't certainly don't know the whole picture. And a lot of people have had different jobs that have taken them in different directions and maybe have right. And so instead of I keep hearing from community leaders, whether it's you or Pete or even like Jamaica Stevens from OFC or I've heard this from Lauren and Charles back with Kiko lab. Oh, I see how everyone really connects and I'm waiting for you guys to figure out how you connect to each other. And that's fine. I would like to see that happen faster, right? And I think we can provide a bit of a framing for people to find each other and find just connections more quickly than what they decide to do those connections out in my opinion outside of the realm of technology, right? That that is them reaching out to each other or or it falls on the community if they find out that 25 people are all interested in a particular topic, either because they have expertise or they just have general interest, that would be a great pop-up call, right? So we can't even begin to go there because we don't know we don't know those pieces of information. So to me, that's how we start that the tapestry is a platform is one view of data that allows us to ask new questions or to come to new conclusions that then elevates a conversation towards the better verse, you know? And the sense that a lot of the people are working in those areas to begin with, right? Enabling the people in these calls to do their work better is certainly elevating all of us towards that towards that answer. So in that sense, I see the tapestry as being some of the mortar. It's not a piece, right? The pieces go in it, it's the platform, it's the framework, it's the, right? So then it's really about, conceptually that's great, but then what has this work practically? And that was the other part of your question. And for me, the practical side of it is how do we have people who are not familiar with technology or don't like using it, don't want to, won't persevere through the friction of learning yet another system or another whatever. Can we use a questionnaire that helps them just answer questions about themselves and we place the pieces in the tapestry for them? Then I think once they see where they fit in the tapestry, having a way for them to edit it, oh, I didn't, I see where I landed on the map. I didn't mean there, I meant over here, you know, now that I see the whole and allowing them to change it if they, if they need to, and then allowing them again to see themselves, you know, beside other people, then helps them learn things immediately about the community, whether they decide to take it to the next step and see the community as a whole and start asking these other questions. Not everyone's going to do that, that's not everyone's thing. I have been working with Vincent on this. It's my intention to have it be a part of Trove. And so he and I are working really closely together, whether it could also be say an external app standalone kind of on its own somehow or open source standalone kind of on its own somehow or other communities can then benefit from it in whatever way serves them. I'm all for that. I think the more, the more is better in which case we all benefit because then if there was one place where we could start layering all the communities on top of each other and then filtering that for all the expertise or all the people interested in this topic or all that right then you really start to the interweaving really starts to get rich. And of course the challenges with how we filter it and how we we can sense make it without much data obviously becomes an issue. So my questions for Jerry's brain then are kind of on all those levels. It's like we could, I'd be interested in pick Jerry's brain for what should the X, Y, and Z axis is look like. So starting there for me the X and Y are fluid. Actually it's all fluid in my mind it's all fluid which is also interesting because most most data guys do not want to or women people who work with data do not want things to be fluid. Most data humans. So it's like trying to they want it to be like no there's a one to one correlation between the data and where it goes and I'm basically saying no that it can be right somebody could put a piece in multiple places because that for them it makes sense to be in more places than once on this particular area of expertise. But I also see the X and Y axis changing either because of its fractal nature people can zoom in to things basically or zoom out to get a bigger picture and zooming in may just mean you know taking the Y axis and instead of it being a holistic framework of all of society which I'm currently currently using as the example it could be just a framework around economics or just a framework around governance so that people can then discern even more all the projects expertise and all the layers inside that so. You know there's a whole conversation still to be had around what those what are maybe some suggestions for organizers or community leaders to create a tapestry for their own community is what their X axis would be what their Y axis would be and what their Z axis would be. To me the X and Y sit flat shifting a little bit X and Y sit flat and then from that visual that you were talking about that you created the layers the Z axis is the layers of the sheets and for me each one of those is contribution is people answering questions about themselves to me those are the pieces that go in the flat grid right and then you have one layer that's people's interests you have another layer that's people's expertise you have another layer that's people's questions you have another layer that's people's stories and I'm starting to realize that it probably is best if the entire tapestry is what I have to bring to a community and less about matchmaking like less about what people do the matchmaking is what I've been thinking lately and have let humans do that piece because they may be really interested in making a connection that the computer AI when they matched up didn't even see right so I'm trying to also the way we phrase things in terms of what I have to offer and what I need can sometimes be the same I have a job to offer I need someone to come and work for me is the actually the exact same thing so I was trying to also get away from that Vincent pointed that out and I thought it was really valuable so I think it's easier and cleaner if the whole tapestry is here's what's available like here's what I'm offering up and then the people viewing it are viewing it for a need right they're trying to research into something I think it makes it cleaner and easier but that's kind of where that sits so there's my leading edges fabulous and I've been tapping a bunch of stuff into the chat which I sort of want to go back through and then weave into the brain and the conversation but like the largest thing of those notes is one of my insights from curating one mind map for 24 years was that we are in a music civilization and I have a video that I shot some time ago that says basically I basically I have a hunch that nobody is having the information curating experience that I'm having I have a feeling that living in a one so here's we are in a music society I'm going to link that actually to our conversation right now I've created a thought for this conversation so here we are here's the tapestry project in the multi plane mosaic but this idea that we keep repeating the same we keep repeating the same conversations over and over again because we don't have a shared memory yes right and that's that's really terrible we've outsourced our memory to Google and Wikipedia which is a problem and then I think I found the thought I was thinking about lack of shared memory makes it easier to spin and manipulate and this is a really important thing right now because we need to not we need to undo the spin and we are all drowning in the info flood and one of the tactics of sort of destabilizing forces is to flood the zone with with bullshit basically is is is the way it's said so I'm coming at this from a different direction but I think that there's a one overwhelming thing is that a shared memory a tapestry that we can weave together that is trusted that we can that represents us would be just a giant step forward for how we know what we know and what we rely on like what what information we can trust and all that I think for the mind it's resting like you were saying it's overwhelming to think about all the resources and I do think that everyone's feeling that no matter what age or what experience people have had with social networks I think just the volume of information the volume of choices the volume of things to look at and to and to absorb is incredibly overwhelming when you when you don't have a place to put it right which is why we all have a million tabs open right it's it's it's not that first of all I know if I close the tab I'll never go back if I have the tab open I'm not even sure I'll remember why I have the tab open right or what how it connected to other things right so already you know within an hour after a call or day or two maybe is more fair after a call it's almost like I woke up from the dream and now the dream makes no sense right like I all these tabs make no sense and I end up closing them and feeling a slight sense of sadness over a lost lost something yes right can we please start putting this stuff in a place where we can go back to it will we still lose stuff of course and and I think in some ways when you mentioned that Google is just you know it's created a rabbit hole so true the way we share information in that through those networks and things again rabbit hole so true and yet at the same time I feel like it's enabled something that we didn't have before too and I don't want to lose that which is we don't have to research ever we don't have to have this have memorized the library and look through the damn card catalog and then pray that the book or journal is on the shelf I mean wow right that seems so weird now and it really wasn't that long ago it's not so long ago 1994 five somewhere in there this thing begins as a public utility ish and that's really you know 25 years ago a little more than that right so it's one of those where like learning can change right I heard the I don't remember this at least a couple years ago so I'm going to get it a little wrong but a story that was inspiring to me where people training to become doctors they they started to change the way there which has so much information that they need to know so they're starting to offset and and instead tell the doctors what resources they can go to on the internet to get the information and so they can move that out of the class classes and bring in you know the real more the real human stuff of of being a doctor because there's just too much now which is also a wonderfully glorious thing that we have learned so much as collective humanity I think we've just over overdone it in the sense of yeah I don't need to know what you ate for dinner last night it was again spaghetti and that's not helping my bringing any meaning or value into my but my doctor having access when I to the right information when when I need it yeah that that's incredibly meaningful so how do we get through all that the tapestry I think is a good first step especially for communities that that are eager for it and don't have it would I love to be able to provide people with a an entire knowledge network where they can curate what's meaningful to them and where the network itself is is almost self curating from the crowd sourcing standpoint of people saying this is valuable this isn't valuable and you know hollow chain is there to kind of help help eliminate the people or not eliminate but sideline the people who who maybe shouldn't be getting the airtime yeah all of that would be wonderful I'm looking for what's a first step what can we make even if it's messy or a little chaotic it it is this could this be a good first step and it would be it would even be interesting if my and your representation in the tapestry started to function as a better resume as a and as a way for people to get to know you and as a way for getting job offers or finding tasks or whatever because because if it knows the questions you're working on and the skills you have and the projects that you've been part of that's a we're already halfway down the road toward you know exposing a LinkedIn profile exposing your work life that's a LinkedIn profile exactly exactly yeah and I saw so what I've been talking to Vincent about is for every answer I have it should show up on my profile right for every answer I give and then that would be pretty much where I would change it is go back to my profile but conversely everyone could see that as well right so I think that is a value piece and I guess part of the reason why I'm bringing that up is in as an example is not everything has to be viewed through the tapestry half of the benefit I think of doing this project is thinking about ways in which data needs to be structured so that we can have these conversations whether it's viewed through a layered grid or it's viewed through a an array or a chart or a kumu map or it doesn't matter so much it's creating conversations right now just around how to organize that database and already I found myself saying hey I know I'm not a data specialist and I know I don't set this stuff up but has anybody thought of doing it this way or what if we did it that way and it changes the nature of the conversation because for me I have an I have a vision in mind of how I want to use it and now we're back to why the visions matter of a vision of how I want to use it and that changes the very nature of the of how the data needs to be structured in order to accomplish it precisely this may be a lousy analogy or it may work for you but when in having conversations about what you were just talking about I keep going back to the old viewmaster thing the stage yeah I think you brought that up before it's a good example say let's talk about it again and I first started thinking about it from an idea that Arthur Brock has called game shifting which is a way to sort of manage conversations and and change formats during the conversation so it's like now we're doing speaker and audience now we're doing baton pass or token pass now we're doing popcorn those are all the sort of formats for for for sessions right yeah but but you could also then slide in different kinds of tools and then that was that that was a while ago when I was thinking about that as maybe a piece of software to fund to to put into the larger puzzle but the more the more I think about it the more I'm like so I like this brain thing even though it's proprietary and I'm sort of trapped in it but other people like Kuma other people like Rome other people like a variety of different tools what if the frame or like a view master and where when you approach a particular problem question or set of data you wind up with the right viewer for that particular data so if what you're trying to describe is the flows of value through the the Columbia River Gorge food is ecosystem everything from everything from the food networks all the way up to the markets and and farmers and restaurants then you might want something like Kuma and it would help you to do this and this and this but at some point at the corner of a Kuma you might in fact want to flip to air table or bubble to get a tabular display with filters and pick lists okay good so now that I'm here who are the players who I should be talking to and then and and so part of what I'm trying to sort of get bring words to is and I think this fits sort of your tapestry but it maybe adds a wrinkle where it's not so much it's like a meta tapestry or it's like a a wrinkle in time kind of tapestry because it's not all made of one fabric or one one kind of one kind of weave it's in fact composed of a collage or a patchwork quilt which is partly why I was thinking about the the big quilt is one of the things that maybe you know I was busy trying to build although quilting seems like a very soft and inert kind of metaphor but but the patchwork quilt I like the lot also because it gives you different ways of seeing the things that you're trying to get done yeah I do think that that's important and also just for the very fact that everyone thinks differently right seeing seeing information in different ways adds value to people who are trying to use it who maybe aren't tech savvy and don't like to look at data in structured ways they want to see it in a flow or they want to see it in you know some other visual you know so I Vincent and I have been talking about that too he already has multiple ways he's already working out in a navigation to allow people to just change the view and this was and this is kind of emerging as the tapestries come up and the kumu maps have come up and I've been working with Jonathan Sand on his app seriously which is a star and I've been working on changing it over it looks a little bit like a Jerry's brain except that you can edit it directly just oh well you can do that and Jerry's brain you can move things around and it also has a global component and a local component and anyway so he because he's the coder for it he and I have been working on a radial or a starburst pattern for it and then now that he's got a little bit of that down what he's going to do is create a version of it as an app for bubble you know in bubble IO so it can be put on trove right it's I'm working on right like I'm working on the tapestry view because really seriously he's not quite ready yet the seriously app is not ready yet and I think we can do the tapestry view sooner so if we do the tapestry we start to ask these questions that eventually will end up in seriously anyway and so you just I'm trying to I'm trying to go add it from as many angles as I can to try to get it really the same thing which is can we see ourselves you know can we just get a mirror to start let's get a mirror to start and a little bit more of a repository that that is organized in a way that we can find things a little bit better and you know whether I end up you know accomplishing it through the tapestry or it ends up being some other initiative this is this is definitely what I'm working on and I will continue working on until I figure out a way good right that me too yeah so I came here to potential OGM architecture components because I started realizing as we were having these OGM conversations that people kept kept coming up with good tool ideas many of which are open source some of which are not but these are mostly open sourcey here and then I have a separate parallel thought called OGM neighbor communities which has many more things in it so this is just a through F here's fair shares here's the scroll bar so there's a whole bunch of neighbor communities because neighbor communities includes conversation spaces online that are really fruitful and communities that are actually doing something about sense making and whatever so there's a lot more different kinds of things here oh my gosh I you know what it makes I'm sorry to cut you off but it just makes me want to put all the neighbor communities in the tapestry so so funny where they all land so funny you should say that okay I did an export from this thought all of the children of this thought and that is that is what Vincent sucked into Trove so you'll oh got it so you'll find everything that's under here is actually in Trove currently because of that thing we did I don't know eight months ago okay so there's these things kind of sort of fit right so here's what open source projects fit OGM well today is one of our one of our design questions and that is next to OGM potential OGM architecture components and if you had a writable tapestry that was also your note taking place you could if you thought the way I think and you might need a completely different tool and a completely different way to do this maybe it's bubble or or or air table but you would have you would have basically a node connected to your project it's like hey what are the potential architecture components and seriously would be connected in there right so in fact I can just for fun thing and then go over here and connect this up to seriously and Trove probably and Trove yeah so let's see there's lots of different things named Trove database service social shop impact or dictionary so here we go and then connect that up to potential architecture components and also connect it to our conversation so it's linked right there so so anyway then and what I've been trying to figure out a way to get to is to bootstrap our way to the tapestry and the mosaic by using the tools that we like best and trying to fit them together right and so and so to get there one of the questions is okay Wendy so which kinds of visualizations really work for you is this going to be Scapple is it going to be kumus particular kind of visualization is it going to be I mean you know and and there's and there's too many of these to know and to survey it once and I don't have I have yet to form an understanding of like are there six canonical different kinds of formats like there's a system flow diagram there's a free architecture like like ancestry.com is a genealogical thing that's a kind of this that's a very particular kind of display like what's the what's the minimum set that everything else could be kind of categorized under is an interesting but not essential question yeah yeah so but that then leads us to the different kinds of viewers in the view master because then it's like oh I need a kumu like view or I need a brain like view is like okay good I've got some open source components that make up that thing that we can drop into a shared architecture. Yes right and assuming everything's interoperable at that point wave of magic wand then you can really just put any view you want it on top. And if you and if you have either incentives or structures for everybody to aim toward and I call this sort of coding toward the middle or designing for the center maybe that works and then there's a separate thought here which I think I was just on it actually I I don't have this I don't think I have this represented well in my brain but there's an essay I need to write titled data is the new soil because I hate data is the new oil which is like this popular meme that that is all about data extractivism and data aggregators and surveillance capitalism is a whole bunch of people saying we're just going to capture all this is Facebook's business model right and Facebook is one of the most valuable country companies on the planet has more humans than China plus India the contrarian point of view on this is I like this is about soil fertility and it's like they actually totally get it that makes sense actually what we want is for the data to be a layer of soil under under and separate from the apps yeah so that I don't have the brain which has a proprietary little brain format for its data storage but rather my brain is like a web browser I'm cruising above a series of component parts that show up you when you click on a link on our in your browser every day you send us you send a request to a server and that server sends out a call across the world saying servers of the world I need these 30 parts or these 500 parts send them to Jerry's browser over there and then my browser is going to catch them all assemble them nicely and then show me a pretty web page and it's a little act of magic that we're doing constantly and we just now take for granted why can't the tapestry functionally work the same way right and so that so then the call for data this data resides in I don't know the interplanetary file system distributed databases I actually don't know I'm that's beyond my pay grade but then it acts as this new layer of fertile soil and so that when I look at a node about potential tapestry architecture components and I add a couple things from the brain view and then save it the next time you come by and see potential tapestry architecture components you have a little hey and Jerry suggested this would you like to add it or not you got it and then we're then we're into fork and pull kind of territory are you familiar with like Github's fork and pull no I'm not but I totally get conceptually anyway right where where technology is helping us connect you know to things that other people have either suggested for us or that they've connected to our things and so it gives us a little bit of a notification I'm assuming that's what you mean exactly this is funny I didn't realize I had a different thought about fork and pull but basically really simply Github has repos or repositories so you would open an account on Github you then have a repository when you're publishing as open source code I could come in and fork your repo which means I make a complete copy of your repository and it goes into my account I can then mess with it do it and the cost of that is a some dist storage really that there's little no cost to the community but this is very fruitful because I can now go crazy and make things better and then I submit a pull request to you if I create a variant that I think is going to be good for everybody to use and you can either say yes I'd love to add that that request if it becomes then part of the main line of code or nope and then if you feel strongly enough about your pull request you might actually fork the entire thing and go and see if anybody will follow you and help you create a new body of code yeah I've seen the same thing I think that makes totally right as soon as I got to yeah I mean I I must have spent about six months trying to figure out like all the different ways in which this you know you could notify be notified and then add to your thing and you know where the privacy ends and the public you know public side begins and it gets messy but to me that's where the joy is because you're someone else's curation work is now saving me time and effort bingo bingo and and GitHub is more complicated than that there's branching and there's a couple other things and GitHub isn't the only model to do this but but but fork and pull is the reason GitHub killed Sourceforge Sourceforge was the place where open source projects were being hosted for many years but it had a different model where basically the owner of the project kind of had like a dictatorial ownership over the project and could say yes no and and GitHub's model just just swamped it and all the projects just went boop over there until Microsoft bought GitHub now it's everybody's like wait a minute so it's complicated but the model that idea of this is how we notify each other this is how we improve different bodies of code I think the model is brilliant yeah and I don't know how GitHub handled it because I haven't really played around in that space but I always imagined having and I went into long conversations with some some development guys I heard about them like okay so I only want one version of everything though assuming assuming the person says yes I want to add this to mine that doesn't necessarily mean that the definition someone else gave a resource or the image someone else gave is bad right so how do we decide what comes first under the millions of variations I'd rather see it all combined into one resource and see where because I'm not talking about sets of code right I'm just talking about right like a link to a resource right but your definition is a little bit different than my definition and is a little bit you know and and the website actually updated their definition and you know all those kinds of things and to see those different variations all presented that's fine right I think ways to do that and then we're getting into Mark Antoine Perron's you know version of things of like how do you just how does the how does the computer decide what goes first my answer to that was crowdsourcing I think everybody gets like this is my favorite version that one appears at the top and then if I flag one obviously that appears at the top for me you know to me those are the kinds of answers that we're eventually going to need but I think there's a lot of low hanging fruit that doesn't need any of that to be solved you know I think just having the resource there at all he's a good place to start we don't even have that I wrote up in the chat a little ways top of your mast and that comes from I don't know if you're part of those calls but we had a couple of calls where we're peeked sort of coined the phrase and I loved it because in some sense if you're in the big tapestry and you're represented in there you could come away as like this we little icon somewhere in the middle of the big tapestry or just like a stitch and a purl it's like oh man I'm so tiny but the top of your mass view says hey you are the center of the universe yes and we're now going to show you the tapestry from your point of view and that means here are the here are your most intimate partner organizations and people here are the people working in on your project and as you go out sort of concentrically a little bit like an intimacy gradient are you familiar with that um no but that makes the conceptually again makes total sense right people closest to me the next the next layer yeah so the intimacy gradient comes out of the original pattern language I think use pattern number 127 and think of it as who would you invite into your living room into your bedroom living room backyard who would you meet at the mall and who would you meet at the grayhound station yeah yeah and and for each of those locations you have a different sense of how many people should be there whether you trust them or not what you might say or do in those things so here's you know intimacy circles in private life your bedroom your living room your mall the airport the bus station so so anyway so so this view from the top of the mass I think is an important component of how we play and how we see how these things work then I think seeing ourselves alongside where everyone else is is part of that yeah what you're saying I think is one step a little further refined which is show me put me at the center and then show all the connections to other you know to projects people right from there and I yeah I would think that would be incredibly valuable again in my in my mind's eye that's just another view on the same data yeah and then and then you wind up running into the problem I think Vincent started running into because he started adding functionality to Trove sort of along these lines you start becoming that company's intranet because your view of what they've got going is maybe better than their SharePoint repository and then okay do I enter the business of charging them $15 per person per user and becoming their intranet and intranet is like a web 2 word from long long ago but it's but it's like you know sass or whatever you want to call it but but do I start becoming their platform for everyday work yes no and if if yes that's a huge different business and and and you become sales force or something right right I mean my main answer to that would be no yeah right because I think I think and the reason why I would say that and that would be the advice I would give Vincent that's really what he's thinking about is because there's plenty of that around we don't need more of that but it doesn't mostly work the way we're talking right what we need is it's missing it's missing this this webby connected view that we're talking about here yeah but I talked to a company long well a couple years ago so really early on and me trying to go okay it's time to develop this thing I talked to a company called Bloomfire which has a intranet community building kind of thing it's really had once I once I talked to them first of all you couldn't curate your own private space everything was public to the community if you if you uploaded it was public which I was like all right immediately no yeah yeah but they had a really nice I'm not sure what the technology was they were using on the back end and it's been too long since I talked to them to remember too many details but they basically had a really nice way of presenting basically a common repository and then allowing people to have discussions on it to iterate on it you know so it was all contained internally so if you one company that's fine if you're a collaborative not so great right because it's you're not going to be one company buying it for your internal workings you know your turn we're trying to do it for these where I'm hearing the need is like Klaus's community right and a couple others like his where they have people who are trying to implement something brand new in the field and I will in his case it's a literal field but I also mean the figurative field where people are are taking a brand new concept and saying I'm going to try it here and I'm going to try it there and there maybe don't live near each other they don't know each other whatever wanting to make wanting to sense make together right some sort of intranet would never serve them because they're not all ever going to be on the same in the same places but I do think there's an advantage to creating something where they can come together as a community now if that's the new version of an intranet then okay but to me an intranet had in the advantage to a lot of companies is that it was walled off like it was this firewall that right and that's definitely not what we're talking about right we're definitely talking about something that then becomes a repository for the public or becomes a repository for the next person who thinks they're interested in trying what everyone else has been trying whatever the thing is whether it's new regenerative agriculture techniques or it's something else and they want to see into the space they're going to see first what are people doing what's the where's the leading question does this fit with what I have been doing does my will my soil you know support that well they'll have all these questions and hopefully can make sense of it pretty quickly for themselves ideally right from the repository that's there that's what I'm hearing is needed and I'm hearing it in multiple places just in the last four weeks presented in my mind that way saying if we could take a tapestry and combine it with some other things that I've been talking to Vincent about about a way for people to share and sense make it's really just two different ways of looking at the same sets of data then that could actually provide I mean it's even better than the tapestry alone in my opinion right it gives people the here's what's going on and here's what to do about it here's the people you need to talk to or here's the next thing that needs to happen here's the the person's profile that you then can click on or connect with them on not just their name so the tapestry becomes a gateway to the rest of the information and then how to make take action exactly one of the things I like about the brain and my use of the brain is that I can go to somebody I haven't seen or heard from or heard about for 10 years and I can if I if I curated them into the brain I can go get a really quick and good snapshot probably where did I meet them because I often connect people to the events that where I met them I have a thought also people I've met through LinkedIn I have another thought people I've met through my brain I added somebody to it this morning because I got a LinkedIn connection request that said hey Jerry I just saw your talk about using the brain would you like to connect and talk and I'm like and so I added him to my brain and put him in that under that thought because I didn't have a lot else to go with but so there's another interesting question that's right next to that which is how do we change the culture of I need to protect myself and sort of be very private or very secret and flip that around to the more I let people know what I'm up to and what I'm good at the more the community benefits and the more probably business I get or some I don't know that's a guess it's a roll of the dice but but more people are aware that they might hire you into do projects or whatever else but just how open can we promote people to be and do things like bloom fire force people to be more open by pushing their information into the middle and is that a good or bad thing and there's a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be kept proprietary or private for privacy reasons that we all know about and also unfortunately if I were a woman my attitudes toward openness and privacy would be substantially different from what they are today because I'm a white guy and I have privilege in the sense of a sense of safety that I think I wouldn't have in other ways which is which is unfair but I think I think like in the world as well yeah and I think that comes down to the privacy settings around each piece of information that I'm putting in to a tapestry or putting out there to a community right so if I have control over that I automatically feel safer and so if I can set those so Vince and I were talking about that too I could set them and this is private just for me and we're back to that I'm curating this network just for myself I sharing it with restricted community you know with in a restricted way with certain communities or certain people or certain whatever and then I'm I'm happy that it goes out into the general public and being able to change those things as well over time maybe because you've built trust or because it's you know my expertise around this I uploaded a file and when I first uploaded it it was new and different and I was keeping it proprietary sharing it with five people now it's 10 years old and if it serves someone else great you know throw it out there in the public sphere so I think there's a lot of really good questions around that but in my in my feeling we don't need to investigate too deeply into that if we allow the permissions and people can decide for themselves exactly and which which requires some super smart people on permissioning of distributed yes yeah and this is your hollow chain blockchain and all that come in because we're really limited it's it's much harder to do it with current technologies from what people are telling me and my sense of it that it'll get much easier with with the new technologies that are coming because your personal information actually is your personal information right exactly let me go back to the chat for a second because I put in your questions as well like what should the axes be for the tapestry and I think we address that in the sense of the view master in the sense of each view might have or not have axes it might be a list view or whatever else but but in some cases you're going to want three dimensions in other cases too and for instance in the multi-plane tapestry slash mosaic view there's a reason why what seeing it in 3d and seeing which people are in which projects in which organizations connected to which projects for which in which strategic initiative there's a reason to want to see that and to see how all the different people connected to this strategic initiative in 3d-ish but then there's a reason that you'd want want to go to any one layer and see it in flatland only because because I find that navigating like multi-dimensional information is really really hard and this idea that we're all going to be in a metaverse walking around in avatars with 3d everything I find like pretty comical many years ago I was at an event where somebody was going to do a demo of a 3d space and they had you know the screen in the front of the room and I typed into the chat for the room oh goody this is now going to take 10 minutes just to get the avatar set in the right place to talk to the other person which they could have done with a google doc instantaneously and sure as shooting it was like you know awkward and this and that and then you have avatar in front of little screen which could easily just be a google doc that they were staring at or a drawing or a presentation or whatever so we lose a lot in moving into these metaverse kinds of things that I think lots of people are trying to push toward you know recently the major companies are buying up gaming companies they're all being sucked up into the Microsoft and everybody else are just buying gaming companies because what our future is going to look like like doom and fortnight really I mean seriously you know what I picture more is like the Iron Man Marvel movie you know where it when it's worthwhile to see something in its original 3D form there's a benefit right like in the movie avatar when they look at a model of where things are the holographic model or the famous one is Minority Report with Tom Cruise doing you know gestures to sort through what the precogs have shown him yes or Cloud Atlas where you see you know where they actually become and you can engage with with the stuff that's floating in front of you and you can move screens to the side or whatever I think all of that is it's kind of like when PowerPoint first came out and everybody wanted to use every transition known to man that it was very and it just clogged it all up right it's figuring out what the best use is for that VR you know interaction for us to sense make we're obviously still figuring it out do I think it will have a place yeah I think it's going to have a place just like the tapestry has a place just like all the other tools kind of have their place and I would be very surprised that the tapestry lasted longer than a year or two even if we decide that it's valuable I'm not even sure we're going to decide it's valuable yet right now it's the conversation that's valuable and it's the vision of having some shared shared repository to see ourselves better that people are finding valuable whether I've found the right view or not remains to be seen for sure and so again I think the value is in the conversation and the connections like this one right the fact that you and I are working in very similar spaces in terms of what we're trying to envision and how we're trying to get there I think is super valuable how we can start bringing those things together so that we are iterating upon on top of each other is interesting to me instead of working a little bit in parallel because I think we've been working in parallel I think that would be interesting to see if there was a way we could iterate a little bit more part of the reason I was really looking forward to this conversation it's like okay mind-meld yeah mind-meld so that that to me and I want that same thing for everyone else oh you mean these three people are working in this space that I've been working in to me if that happens once I will be thrilled I will say success right and and even better I suppose if we don't even know about it because that's even better although I'll be sad because I don't mean about it but you know it's that kind of thing you want it just happening and people to realize that that there's so much and then the storyline of how many good things are happening how much work is being done so so a small sub-note maybe and and this has to do with sort of opinions or belief systems or narratives and this is one of my beliefs about the future open global mind world or interface that I'm that I'd love to be in that I'd love to use which is that I would love to have it have create a collective tapestry or collective hive mind or collective view of what's going on but I want to be able to step back and see only my point of view through all of it I want to be able to to have it preserve each person's whether it's the top of mass view but the top of mass view one way of thinking about it is it's just a database filter for the entities that are already in there and we're still all seeing the same entities it's just the different sort of the entities and what I'm saying here is a little different from that is that I might have a conflicting narrative about why some why did the metaverse fail you and I in in 20 years might have very different stories about that and I'm interested in the tapestry and you may not be but I'm interested in this in this in this system preserving those stories and allowing us to tell those stories better but there might be very different stories that overlap on a third of the plot so we may we may have a narrative where that third of the narrative and like I was with you until you said X and then my story goes this way and your story goes that way and we end up over here with very different conclusions but that first third I was completely on board and we I agree with you wholeheartedly right that's really really interesting to me and we have a few ways of making this evident manifest visible present I don't know what the right word is yeah to just go back to that that book dawn of everything where it's like retelling the whole a bit yeah I mean Graber Graber's magic also in the debt the first 5,000 years his magic is like hey that story that economists have been telling you about the origins of money it's actually completely wrong and now it's like hey that story that sociologists and anthropologists have been telling you about the origins of civilization and agriculture are completely screwed up and I love that and and what's funny I love it too what's funny is these are contrarian views and one of my the favorite thoughts in my brain just put it up for just one second so contrarians who make or made sense and it's quite busy so these humans down here Doug Engelbart Lynn Ostrom Franz DeWall Gabor Matte Ivan Illich Howard Zinn Hilary Cottom Heidemarie Schwermer Hazel Henderson Harrison Owen who invented open space Hans Mondermann who invented traffic calming all these people basically had contrarian ideas ideas that were really controversial in their time and many of these people like Christopher Alexander I think he's still alive but but C.A. is basically a cranky paranormal guy you have Bruce Lipton in there yeah I think so and Nasim Harriman so where are you seeing Bruce Levine no Bruce Levine Bruce Lipton Bruce Lipton where'd you see Bruce the geneticist so evolutionary biologist I don't have him under that I have him under gene expression and a bunch of other things but he's not part of that that's interesting collection and this collection is always growing and every now and then I find somebody and I'm like ooh ooh ooh I need to add them to add them to my collection because this is one of my favorite nodes in the whole brain yeah but but one of the really weird and interesting things about curating this is what's the line between a contrarian and a conspiracy kook right and it's really in some cases a fine line and sometimes a decade separates a conspiracy kook from an actual contrarian from and then another decade is like common knowledge yep right conventional wisdom and and I I love that I love that spectrum and I'm hoping that books like the dawn of everything help us drop dysfunctional old narratives and find our way into better ideas and that's why I curate this yeah I to me one of the great joys for me I think you're saying the same thing is that if I had something like this and and we could almost watch from afar the evolution of of you know of concepts and ideas you know that the obvious you know the world is flat the world is round you know kind of transfer of understanding and how that permeates the culture and then what changes I love stories like that because we don't usually tell history in that way it's more dates and people and wars and things but I find the history of the evolution of understanding being much more interesting much richer absolutely and there's tons of books out on this and we can't all read them all as part of the problem too so so I haven't read dawn of everything yet I've started it but I did read against the grain a couple years ago which is James Scott's book about early agriculture and Scott is not an anthropologist or whatever but he bedded this book for a decade with people who knew all the different fields and they came out with this this whole idea that hey that the narrative we've got is actually asked backwards it's wrong and I love I love this book it's fantastic so I debriefed it into into my brain as all these different thoughts that are then connected up you know Scott reframed barbarians as what civilizers called the outsiders who were actually freer and healthier than the people inside the city so I've got that connected to barbarians and I then that made me write the barbarians and as the other who got written out of history and that I connected that to anarchists and sophists for reasons we can go into some other day Yeah so why help me understand what your line was like why would a Bruce left and not end up on the list because I don't know enough about him Oh oh okay yeah he was basically had to leave academia to pursue he basically was someone who discovered that when he was looking in the Petrie dishes and trying to figure out what the cells were reacting to and what the what the DNA was reacting to he realized that it was reacting to its environment right that the proteins were more important than than the DNA so it was basically the beginning of epidemiology you know not epidemiology epigenetics is the word I was looking for yeah before and so I went to a weekend workshop with him and talked to him a bit he said he was kicked out his basically you know his PhD the data was so obvious that the expression of the genes was reacting to whatever the environment was that his professors couldn't absorb it and they basically told him he must be wrong and his data must be wrong and so he left so guess what boop done this is interesting right it's like all these people and I feel like I'm finding them in every sector of society there are people who've been pushing the boundaries in this way and having to almost leave the system in order to pursue the new idea and I find that fascinating and I would love to I would love for there to be a place where these people could come together or have a voice you know and yet how do you make sure those people have a voice and not the total cooks exactly exactly and who gets to make that call you know yes so here's your post my story on the birth of everyone's wisdom which points to Randy Poush's final lecture and so I read your post and then debriefed it into my brain right so you're pointing to the biology of belief which I think is one of Lipton's books his books yep where he says we are not victims of our genes et cetera et cetera I think you quote that in your piece and so I called it out as a quote out of the book and as something that you're quoting so that's how I do that usually I got you and then you're quoting Randy Poush's final lecture and let's see this comes from the alchemist I got to meet Paolo Quello once years ago oh how fun yeah very interesting super super cool guy so anyway so that's I'm trying to figure out how to preserve the express and I'm going to borrow a phrase from Arthur Brock here the expressive capacity that the brain gives me and doing what I'm showing you right this second so that all of us could do it without having to master something that's as scary looking as this brain thing yeah right so one of the questions I have active is how can we make something one step more complicated than Instagram or Twitter but zillions of people seem to be perfectly happy using including hashtags with your metadata yeah right if so many people can be doing that happily and flooding the airwaves with like cat pictures and what I had for breakfast and really interesting ideas yeah what little thing can we do to bring that into the middle to create a shared understanding yeah some meaning around all of that exactly yeah you know for the person who just wants to post cat pictures and you know and what they ate yesterday or what they baked five days ago or right then the platform you and I are envisioning or the experience you're envisioning isn't for them or isn't for them in that moment right what we're asking is for people to go back and remember that it's their connection with other people that matters that it's if they really have a problem in their lives if they really have solutions that need to be found and if we're really going to tackle the troubles that are coming all of our way and are already having to deal with and larger scale we need to be doing better and what does better look like and how can we make that happen faster that's right to me that's what OGM is really in total trying to help each other do right and people either individually working on it or at least just interested in talking about it and supporting others I think right that's never we don't want that to become a Twitter space and the Twitter space is never going to become what we're trying right those both will exist beside each other and I think if we give people an alternate option then for those who are ready they'll adopt it early and for those who are you know need to come along later I think people are generally for the last 10 years I've been feeling this even when I was giving parenting classes people want truth they like they like thinking about things in terms of stories they like thinking about things in terms of relationship and they and they didn't want to think about things in terms of developmental stages anymore that wasn't working you know it didn't help them understand their child better or connect to their child better all I know is you're supposed to go to school get up and get your shoes on and go to school and when we would say to people look if your child's resisting then there's stress there maybe try reading a book we don't have time to read a book we had one woman come back and say I read a book and she got ready so fast we actually had extra time so because it was the connection that that was missing so I think to me the tapestry is less it's partly we get to see ourselves it's validating but it's more that it's about we get to see each other and that's what I was asking about the narratives and opinions and how they fit into your view of the tapestry that's exactly why is that is that I think if you make room for people's points of view and you give them powerful ways to express them and then if Mark Antoine unleashes his ideal loom and hyper knowledge software on them to derive like how the logic behind their assertions ooh that's a little scary but still then we're getting someplace sort of interesting right now different what will give people with very different points of view the confidence to post into a shared medium I don't know I don't know and there's and there's a bunch of people who are making decisions based on acts of faith that are not that are that are logical only if you think acts of faith are logical right that that that they've made it they've made a jump that says this is true and this is true which are assertions I would not agree with but they're building a set of belief system out of those acts of faith that is that is logical under those assertions but those assertions are like pulled out of thin air in some way yeah it's like wow so and that those to me are exciting conversations right but I don't know they're scary conversations because how do we get in there what do we do I have a I didn't I got to do an interview with Gerald Davis who is the musician who's got a garage full of KKK robes and the reason I interviewed him like right up front was he's figured out how to listen carefully and for a long period of time very patiently with respect and melt other people mm-hmm and and it's not that he convinces them of anything or rather his demeanor and behavior convinced them that he's worth getting to know and worth being a friend yeah and and partly because he didn't try to pry them away from their belief system and I'm projecting a little bit here because he's got a complicated life and he's you know he's really worked hard to do what he does I'm astonished by it no but I think that I think the point you're making about connecting with other people happens best through listening again and it's back to everybody wants to be seen and heard right everybody wants right and and when we're able to do that make someone else really see feel seen feel heard then they can start listening exactly otherwise we're all talking and no one's listening precisely so here's the interview that I did with Darrell although the transcript is not quite finished yet here's a link to the draft document and then here's something I wanted to bring in a moment ago that I have which is under my beliefs and I've got up here on the pinboard I have my beliefs and it's messy there's a whole lot of them here but one of them is this idea that stories are more fundamental than facts and I've got dysfunctional stories we often believe I have a thought about the scripts that we have running in our minds that kind of own us in some way that we don't understand and then a really important one is we are in a Titanic battle over the narratives in our heads and we always have been and this is where sort of politics and power come in because this is this is what politics is about it's about shifting the the narratives in the bulk and this is partly what religion does as well it's shifting the narratives of very large numbers of people so that you can run a whole new economic system or governmental approach or whatever yeah anyway we've been we've been going for a little over an hour I think an hour and 10 or something because we I think we were 10 minutes into the first hour happy to stop here interested in what questions you have and what feedback you have could go longer on this conversation or whatever you like I have no yeah I I have I have something else I have to move on to so yeah we should probably end soon but yeah if you want feedback I think right off the top it's so I actually made an effort to browse Jerry's brain before this call with my questions in mind and struggled yep and and where I struggled was I I didn't have enough information in my own mind behind each thought to make sense of it on the fly yep and so it made it very hard to know where to go from where I started right so it's searching to right and so it was very fascinating for me to see where you landed because you were like oh this is this is the node that we really need to start from and I was starting from a completely different one so I had searched communities and did not land on that network of communities that were that were central to OGM for instance yeah yeah or if that had come up in the search I just didn't know to click you know I didn't think to click on it for whatever reasons so it's fascinating so helpful and so interesting to connect with you around Jerry's brain and it makes me as maybe a follow conversation for some time how can we let's say I keep moving forward and developing the tapestry and I feel like Wendy Elford has a role to play and like how we can catalog stories in that for instance when affinity has a role to play in terms of how we listen to each other is and how we connect with each other so much around how we see each other feel seen feel safe to share things right and then where does the where does Jerry's brain and tapestry enter enter weave not just the idea you have for the layering but the but the you know do we put links right in inside of a tapestry to go out to Jerry's brain at the key at key spots where Jerry's brain has a lot to offer that would be the simplest version that's that's totally the starting point right that's that's the simplest thing that we can do today but then but then in the in the view master view what does it look like when tapestry and brain are next to each other that's like yeah that's really fun it gets totally fun I just I just posted a link to the the thought I created for this conversation thank you so you can now go follow up in the brain all the thing not all of them but many of the things that we touched while talking here which I'm interested in whether they'll make more sense to you now because because I think I think one of the value sources of these conversations is I'm just people get to sort of marinate in me telling stories around the brain understanding how I use it and what the context is and maybe I think that makes the brain more valuable to them afterward as a standalone resource but I don't know I'll let you know yeah yeah yeah that would be valuable cool awesome this has been fabulous this has been so fun thank you Stacy do you want to unclog say anything nope I'm good cool you're still recording I'm still recording wait I can fix that