 it is. Welcome everybody. We are doing Recovery Monday episode number 54. Today we're going to talk about the fact that sometimes you just can't seem to accept. I can't do this acceptance thing. How the hell am I supposed to accept? So we're going to talk about the difference between acceptance and then maybe using non-resistance instead of acceptance, which I think functionally might wind up in the same place, but it could be easier for some folks to conceptualize. I know that when I posted about this on Instagram and different social media platforms, I got a huge amount of response in this and a bunch of people asked to talk about it today. So that's what we're going to do. Let's put the chat up on the screen like we usually do so you guys can see each other and chat amongst yourselves like you usually do, which is always probably maybe my favorite part of the stream is watching you guys just do what you do. Hey, Aimee, how's it going? Billy's here. Let's see here. Where's everybody coming from today? Bethany is here with the thumbs up and it tells me that the audio in the video is actually working. Look at the fancy background we have, man. I don't know what that is. That's like a stock photo of something. I don't know, but it looks kind of cool. So anyway, today that's what we're going to talk about. I have a friend joining me and I have a mint. I'm actually having a mint. It's not a safety behavior. I promise I just have a terrible taste in my mouth. So I popped a mint. So stick with me. I'm going to try not to be super rude about having this mint in my mouth, but I just couldn't take it anymore. And anyway, it's that thing where even after you brush your teeth, it's sort of whatever. Anyway, so we're going to get into the conversation. I'm going to bring a friend of mine on because this is right up her alley. You guys may have seen us doing some stuff together. Let's bring Joanna on. Hello. I can't believe all these messages. I've never done this before, by the way. Oh, well, this is new then. That's totally new. So anyway, for you guys, yes, it does look different. You are correct. We have a little bit of a different thing going on. What happens if I do that? There we go. How about that? So those of you guys who have seen us, Joanna was on my podcast. Joanna and I do a monthly webinar on Distress Tolerance. So we've been working a lot together lately. We talk all the time and this topic is right up her alley. So just a quick introduction to my friend Joanna Hardis here. I will put her up on the screen so that you guys can go and check her out if you would like. This is her Instagram. So, Joanna, look at that. We're super fancy here. No joke. So Joanna is the real deal. She is a practicing therapist in Cleveland, right? 20-something years. 26th year. Yep. But you're still not legal to drink. How did that happen? I don't know. I really don't. Joanna is practicing in Cleveland, Ohio, here in the US of A and she specializes in anxiety disorders and OCD, pretty much exclusively now, yes? Yes. We spend a lot of time talking about doing hard things and tolerating distress and accepting and all those things. So today's topic meaning let's go toward non-resistance instead of acceptance. Like I had to get you in on this one. So let's get into it a little bit. So what we'll do as we usually do is Joanna and I will chat a little bit and then we'll kind of scroll back and we'll check out the comments and see what's going on in the chat and we'll try and answer some questions. But my friend, I will throw it at you first. What do you think? Some people, you know how it is, your clients, the whole acceptance thing and we're both big fans of ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy. So like we'll stumble on the very first letter sometimes it's a non-starter for people. How do you accept this? Right. Yeah. So how do we address that? Right. Well, I think one of the things that confuses people a lot, especially with OCD, is that people think that they have to accept their situation. People think they have to accept and like, they think acceptance and liking are the same thing. Very common. You're right. So they think, well, they think, well, I have to like what's happening to me or they think that I have to or that I have to be really passive and that I have to accept with passive resignation what's happening to me versus. And so I think, I don't know if that's your experience too, but I think acceptance is just like accepting that this thought or this memory or this sensation or this feeling is just taking up real estate in your head in this moment versus like it's not about liking it or not liking it. Like it's just there. Yeah. And that's such a hard topic I think because acceptance has a positive connotation that does sort of include like, you know, like you don't have to give it, I love you man and give it a big hug, but it's an acknowledgement, it's here. Exactly. The reality is it is there. I mean, and to anything but that is just making that's where like suffering comes in. It's just like you're fighting against the wave. Yeah, I like that. Anything that's where suffering does come in. And you know, it's funny because as I'm listening to you, my wheels are turning a little bit. And to me, acceptance almost looks like resignation or like, okay, look, fine, I have this is the way it is. So yeah. So what am I going to do with it now? Exactly. And people forget that acceptance is like, we're not when we talk about acceptance, it's not, you know, what have you like in 20 minutes, it's in this very moment. Yeah, yeah. Which I think is really hard. You know, I struggle with that too when I'm really gripping down on something. But it's like, moment by moment, it's not, because people will say to me, you know, you know, I'm accepting what's going to happen in the future, like, no, no, no, no, it's like right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think people also think that acceptance is somehow like if I don't accept it somehow it will get better or it'll go away or I could make it go away. And I think that's really fruitless because if you try to frame acceptance as my acceptance will somehow change the situation. And I know I'm not going to accept this. It's like, and I use this analogy all the time, it's super simple, but it's like not accepting that the moon is there. You cannot accept it all you want, but that isn't going to change nothing, the moon is there. Right. So what's the point of saying I can't accept that. So maybe we should look at acceptance as more acknowledgement or resignation. It's here. And that's it. There's nothing I can do. I thought there's nothing I could do about it, but it doesn't help me in any way operationally to say no, I won't accept. I can't accept. Right. You're already accepting just begrudgingly. Right. We don't argue that there are clouds in the sky. We accept that, you know, we don't that there are clouds in the sky or what you hear. We can sort of acknowledge that, but the minute that it becomes about our thoughts or our sensations, it becomes so much trickier. It does. And we get emotionally attached. And we're using analogies like clouds and the moon. And I can speak for both of us. I think we understand how difficult this is. It's not the clouds in the moon. It's how you feel and it feels important and it feels dangerous. I understand. But I think coming to the realization that choosing to not, I won't accept this. I can't accept it. Really. It's, well, I am accepting it. I'm just, I'm just doing it against my will. It's, I have no choice. It's already here. So I operationally am accepting this. I'm just fighting it while I do that. Well, you're not accepting. You're probably resisting it. Yes. See, they, okay, it's not, it's not accepting. It's resisting. Even when you wake up and I do this all the time, I'm like, oh, you know, it's so shitty out. That's not accepting. Yeah, that's true. I'm constantly fighting the reality. It's shitty. It's cold. It's gloomy. I don't see the sun a lot of days. Yeah, I feel that four years in Buffalo, I get it. So, Oh yeah, right, right. Yeah, that was tough. But I love how you said that's, that's resisted. So the post, the social media post that's posted prompted this whole thing was that like it's resistance. So you can say you're not accepting, but then all you're really doing is resisting. Right. And like we talk about scaling stuff with our distress tolerance stuff, this is how people can start scaling this stuff is like when you start noticing all the ways that we resist, then you can start like, you can start working on, okay, well, how do I, you know, how do I change my language around some of this stuff too? Yeah, that's a good point. How do I change my language? How do I change my behavior? How do I change my reaction? Like, acceptance isn't sort of a state of mind in so many ways. Acceptance is something you can demonstrate. I think you can't do acceptance. You can only demonstrate acceptance, which is really demonstrating non-resistance from moment by moment. Yeah, right. There are a lot of little ways like, you know, there are a lot, there are a lot of little ways like I think if we think about scale, obviously people are coming here because they struggle to accept. They're resisting stuff that's really highly distressing and high, like high intensity arousal. However, how many people at Thanksgiving, like probably struggled with accepting other, you know, how other people acted or viewpoints or, you know, there was probably resistance all over the place. I wish, you know, people did things differently or there's probably lots of ways in which we resisted reality. Yeah, and I think when we do that, that's a that's a good illustration too. It's especially with Thanksgiving having just passed in the U.S. Yeah, if you're around other people and we have words for it, we all start to understand these phrases. You hear silly things like can't fix stupid. Like when we discover that somebody's acting the way we don't want them to, and we say something to live like that, well, can't fix stupid, I guess. That's an acceptance that that person is the way it is. You're not going to see eye to eye, and I'm going to do what I do in reaction to that now. I'm going to accept the way it is, and now what do I do with it? Right. So we can do that when it comes to other things, but it's really hard to do that when it's how I feel. Right. Or all the shuds, you know, all the shuds that we do on ourselves or someone else, like these are all opportunities that may have less arousal to them that may be easier for people to see and to kind of work on, you know, more neutral stimuli, work on shifting. Yeah, that's a great question, Sam, just put everything, your lightens try spending a week with your family. Yeah, that's really good. So in the end, we go from like, well, I can't accept this to like, okay, let's shift gears then. Let's just say instead of trying to accept it, let's try to not resist it because that might be easier operationally for people to comprehend. Well, how do I do that? Okay, well, now we can actually have concrete things. Tell me what you do when you're anxious. Tell me what you do when you're having an atrocious thought. Tell me what you do when you're feeling sense of distress. Oh, I snap rubber band, I call my husband, I sniff a lavender oil, whatever, like you can think of a million things that you do. I paste back and forth. I do, oh my God, oh my God, I go to the Facebook group, I listen to a podcast. Okay. Well, that's your, that was your resistance behaviors. So now you have to start crossing them off. Don't do that. I don't know. I mean, what do you have thoughts on that? I don't know. What was the question? Bam, mic drop by Joanna. I think I lost it somewhere. Yeah, it's okay. That really is, I think it's not a question. It's a matter of for somebody who's saying I'm really having a hard time accepting while I might say, well, then just try not resisting because not resisting is a thing that might be more easily identifiable. We can make that concrete. Stop doing things. Right. But it doesn't really help you accept, but it doesn't really help accept. I don't think. I don't know. I don't know. Well, I think from my assertion in that would be if what I do to try to fix it, make it go away, get away from it, whatever it is, if I stop doing those things, I get to the same place. I still might say I don't accept it, but I'm not going to fight it. I'm going to drop all of my fight and in non-resistance, you get to acceptance operationally. Even though you might still say, I don't accept this. Okay. But operationally, you're still getting to the same place or close to it. But are you white knuckling? Not if you can drop every one of those things. So if you identify you're white knuckling, you can mentally white knuckle. I mean, I think what's helpful for, I mean, I think what's helpful, I don't know. I've never thought about it in terms of like the non-resistance that word kind of like gets me, but I don't know why. I think it's, I mean, I think yes, we have to drop the behaviors. But then I think there also has to be that, that mental shift of like, I think what I always remind myself and I try to like help my clients see is that the suffering part, that, you know, that fight it, that the acceptance is like the more that I fight reality, it's causing suffering. And that's like what I do to myself. Yeah. And so if I can like get rid of those behaviors, but then like loosen my grip on the present moment. Yeah, get there. And it's really like just like, and I literally will like open up my hands, drop my shoulders, loosen my breath and like remind myself like, you know, the suffering's on me. Like all that shit I put on it is on me about like, it shouldn't be like this, all that other stuff. And then, and then really remind myself that it, you know, fighting is going to make it worse. So I need to work on accepting, taking a step back, kind of reappraising the situation, seeing it for what it is, and then, you know, trying to refocus, allowing that stuff to be there and then, you know, refocusing. Yeah. But I think that cognitive stuff has to be there. Oh, yeah. You know what, I don't disagree. I think you make a really excellent point for sure. Like it can't, you can drop a bunch of behaviors over physical behaviors, but there's, there are those cognitive responses too. But I think you cannot, I don't know if you could get to the point. And this is almost specifically addressed to the people who are resisting like, no, I can't accept that. You don't understand, I can't accept. Okay, well, if we start with the behaviors first, absolutely down to there's nothing left except that cognitive part. Yeah, for sure, for sure. 100%. Yeah, right. So it is definitely a combination. And this is kind of cool, because you guys are actually watching, we did not talk about this. This is, here's the topic, see you at two o'clock. And so we're gonna work it out in real time, which I really, I dig. So the whole idea, I think somebody, Bethany in the comments had said, I'll put the chat up here, hang on here. I don't know how you do. This is so distracting. I'm used to it now. So, so she says, this is why I ride your coattails. It has a positive connotation for many people and ceasing resistance can sound more neutral, which I like. You're right. There's no positive or there's actually more of a negative connotation, I think in non-resistance because it's brutal. Like when you I use the term surrender, because that's what it is. There's no mistaking that. So non-resistance mean, yeah, you will feel all of the things and you will think all of the things correct. And I'm also like a big proponent of renaming. So I really believe that what sets us up, you know, what sets people up is with this whole acceptance thing. I mean, I think with any anxiety work is when people, you know, hold on, my brain's going too fast. I think when we're working to accept really uncomfortable sensations in our body or really uncomfortable feelings or really distressing thoughts or memories or whatever or whatever goes on under the hood, I think I am becoming more and more firm that we've also got to rename stuff. And what I mean by that is, you know, and rename and get more granular about what is going on. So if we say, so if someone says to me, do I have to accept that I'm freaking out or that I feel bad? What I try to get them to do is, okay, well, feeling bad is really vague. But I'll say like, yeah, you have to accept that right now you're feeling really intense arousal or you have to accept that you're feeling distressed. The meaning that you make of that is probably going to make or break how, how you proceed. But what we know from like so much data is that, you know, how we appraise what we're feeling is, you know, is often wrong. And if we appraise, you know, what the initial reaction when people are feeling that kind of distress is often so catastrophic and so it's often wrong. So if we don't help people get more granular and say, yeah, I'm feeling a lot of distress, or I'm feeling like intense feelings of arousal with uncertainty, that I can either rename as like excitement or the flip side, which is like fear. You know, and if I, if I say fear, I'm probably going to want to avoid it. But if I can kind of like wiggle my way in to say some excitement, and this is a challenge and an opportunity, which believe it or not, I do how people do, I might be able to move the dial to the right. Yeah, which I like that too, that getting granular as opposed to it feels bad or I'm, you know, what am I feeling right now? What exactly am I feeling? I feel like I am about to lose my mind is a very specific statement. And it can help you drop the resistance and get it into a little bit more neutral place. Okay, so now I know exactly what I'm afraid of. So what can I do? Right. And that is a thought, not a feeling. Yes, okay, that's what I love. See, that was worth the price of admission right there, guys. So I think that I am going to lose my mind. I think that I am dying. And if we use diffusion, I am aware, and this is why I may drive people crazy, but it's useful, the granularity. I am aware I'm having the thought that I can lose my mind that I may lose my mind. Yeah. And then I'll say, okay, like, okay, and where do you feel it in your body? And how do you feel? And, but people will say, I feel like I'm going to lose my mind. Well, that's a thought. That's not a feeling and that's not a sensation. But the more distance that we can get, the better, A, it slows people down, and then we can get more precise about, like what they actually feel in their body, and then they may be able to ride it out. And then eventually, especially if I'm working one-on-one, choose to not engage in the behavior to make it go away. Right. And it feels so good. Yeah, because if you define it a little bit more, I think that helps with that, okay, well, now I know what I'm going to do. So what are you going to do to keep from going crazy, though? Well, I normally would do this. I pinch my face. Okay, so now I have clues now. Now you can stop pinching your face. But it still feels like, no, no, you're still thinking. You have feelings and you think. So I like that. It helps you start to drop that resistance, drop that resistance, and hopefully get to that acceptance point. Get to it first. You can't jump right to it. And you can observe it. Okay, well, that's a thought. Can you accept that the thought is taking up residence in your head? Yeah, versus like, this is what you are. Some of these concepts, I think, are so subtle and they're so different. It's so individual and it's in the moment and you might feel differently about it on Thursday than you do on Wednesday. Yeah, it's really hard. And I think it's really important for us to say like, we can have this discussion. I love having it here in the open to for people to see, but there's no like concrete, okay, we'll do this, and then it will feel better. We can, unfortunately, never leads to that. It's just concepts. You have to work on yourself to a certain extent. But, you know, so should we? What? Nope. I jumped all over you. I'm sorry. No, I mean, I think this is also why meditation and some kind of mindful awareness is 100% essential for anyone working on shifting their relationship with anxiety, because you you begin to practice this in a more neutral setting. Yeah, yeah, it's true. If you do, if you do these kind of things, only when the chips are down, it will get very frustrating. Yeah, 100% true. Yeah, I'm not gonna do any of it. But then when I get really anxious, I want tools to use in that moment to accept and flow. That's that's tough. So you that's why we do stay practice practice practice as often as you can. So we're about 23 minutes into this, we'll go for about another 15 or 20 minutes if we can. Do any good time for that? Yeah. Yeah. So let's look at some questions in the chat. I usually scroll back in and look at some questions here. Everybody hello, hello, hello. If you're in the Facebook group, then I only see you as Facebook user. I'm sorry, because that's the way Breastream does this. So what does Ellen have to say? What do I do when I start ruminating after exposure? I intentionally think my scary thoughts and accept the uncomfortable feelings. Then I don't know how to stop thinking about the subject. I go deep into the subject. I'll put it on the screen. It's gonna be big. Oh, thank you. I'm a visual person. You're very welcome. We have to peer over the top of the comment sometimes, but that's okay. So it's as if like you were giving Ellen say imaginals and she can't she doesn't know how to end them. Once I start, I can't stop. Okay. And this is a super common question. So you're not alone. I mean, this is something that every client I think I've ever worked with who I've worked with has asked if you can do it in the exposure. So if you if you if in the exposure you're working on not ruminating, I'm guessing that you have you're learning how to practice, you know, raining in the mental rituals there. You know, so it is not easy. But when the exposure stops, what I tell my clients is you keep going, you know, just because the exposure stops. What I want people to do is to continue working on trying to rain in the rumination. Now it's not going to be perfect. And it's not them. It's not going to be, you know, 100%. But what I want them to do is to same thing notice when they're getting lost in a rumination, hold themselves out with the same skills that, you know, they were they were using during the exposure and, you know, go back to whatever they were doing, making dinner, you know, writing an email, doing work, reading a book. And it's that same process of like noticing that they're starting to ruminate, hold themselves back. Yeah. And so yeah, and then it's the practice, unfortunately. And I think you have to be careful of the judgment like, okay, the exposure is over. I did an exposure, but the thoughts are still there. So I have to do something now. Well, the practice, unfortunately, we don't get to decide when we think things. So and I think it's important to say, Hey, Connie's here. Hey, Connie. So I think it's important to be able to say, when I do that exposure, that planned thought exposure, ERP of some kind, it sounds like in Ellen's case, I'm choosing to think. But even though the exposure is over, we don't get to decide, I won't think that anymore. It's not a switch. So there's a certain amount of here's the word acceptance or understanding that, yes, that might be a continuous practice throughout the day when you have to. It's not really hard to do. And I think any, you know, it's like every every win is noticing, oh, I've gone off. And when you bring yourself back, that's a win. Yeah, thank you for saying that. So it's so important that is a win. The fact that you're having the thoughts is not a loss. No, no, no, practice is the win. Yeah, yeah. Very good. Having the thoughts that you're normal, that that's typical. Yeah, yeah. Let's go to another question here. This is a good one. It says, Leisha, hoping to say that right. How do you know if you're truly accepting? That's like, that's a good question. And I don't know if there's a hard answer. I don't know if there's a black and white answer to that. I think it's, I think you don't know necessarily, but that the indicators would be, how much am I fighting? And sometimes I think the indicator or the, what's the word I'm looking for? The indicator of progress toward acceptance is, how scared am I? And this is going to sound crappy, but like the more scared you are and letting yourself be scared, the more you are probably moving toward acceptance. Does that make sense? And then that's a good indicator because if you're not trying to save yourself, then you are moving toward acceptance. When do you get there? I don't know. I wouldn't, I don't know how to answer that. I don't know if there's an answer to that. And I don't think it's a light switch. I think, you know, I think if you've had a hard day, I think it's like moment by moment. So I think it can change throughout the day. It changes based on your situation. I think it changes, you know, more stressed out. I think if you're tired, you're hungry, you're stressed out, you may notice on certain days that you're just like, you may fight, you may resist more. Yeah. And it's, you're right. It's like kind of a little bit of a roller coaster. Sometimes it feels easier and you'll feel more accepting other days, you feel like you're fighting. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's noticing. Again, the win is you notice. So whereas before you may not have even considered these concepts, now you're thinking about it, you're noticing, you're able to say, oh, I'm struggling more and I can get myself into a more willing place. You know what's great? That act video series on the struggle switch. Oh, I've seen that. Yeah. We should put up that link. Yeah. There's so much good, like the act of metaphors and the act of this there's so much good stuff about that. Yeah, I can struggle switch one is so good for acceptance. Yeah. You know, if the struggle switches on, you're not accepting, but when a struggle switches off, you're accepting. I am going to, this is good. It's a, it's a Russ Harris. It's like an animated. I'll post them. They're good. It's great. Yeah. I'll put them up there. They're probably really helpful. Good answer though. I love the acknowledgement that like, hey, you're even thinking at the fact that you're even asking a question about acceptance is an indicator that you're moving toward acceptance because back in the day when you first start this journey, it's no, no, no. I snap rubber bands and I drink cold water and I call my partner. That's just what you do. Like don't tell me not to do that. So now the fact that you're even asking the question is a really good indicator of what's going on. So very good. Let's pop on another one here. I can't ask. So when I choose to deep breathe and relax while having anxiety, am I accepting or am I trying to get rid of that? Excellent question. Super common question. Yeah. I don't know, Ken. What's the function of doing it? That's right. The answer is what's the intent? And I come back to this all the time. The intent is what defines that. So I can't know why you're doing that or not. Are you doing that as a navigation tool or are you doing that hoping that if you deep breathe, you will get it to go away? So again, it's very subtle. You might be both. Might be both because I think it's important to recognize that every human being is going to want it to go away. There's no doubt about that. I think you cannot engineer that completely out of it. So if you're going to use tools to navigate through and allow, some part of your brain is still trying to make it go away. I don't think we can avoid that. I agree. Yeah. So intent matters there. Yeah. Let's go down and see what else we got. Oh, Christine knows my Buffalo weather. Cleveland, though. I think you might have it worse. I don't know. I'm from Rochester, too. Oh, geez. Have you never been in the sun? Has that the problem here? No, what is wrong with my trip? I don't know where I live, I know. Oh, very funny. All right. I didn't know all you know what good weather is. I love breathing, Rach. Yeah, they're so good. And you know, it's so interesting. H-A-G. Oh, that was alphalion H-A-G. H-A-G is hot anxiety girls because a few weeks ago, I do this every Monday, we had a troll show on YouTube and he was posting frantically about hot girl sites like porn sites and somehow or other it became hot anxiety girls, which is hags. We only had it once though. It's hard to accept when anxiety symptoms are often frightening and just plain suck. Correct. It is hard. You know, my, when I was going through anxiety, when I was going through treatment for my anxiety, one of the things I would tell myself was it sucks and I can do it. Yeah. Yeah, it sucks, but I can do this because you don't want to say to yourself, like, this sucks. I hate it because you don't want to send that message. You don't want to keep reinforcing that, like, I hate this. You want to say like, yeah, this is distressing. This sucks and I can do this. Yeah. That's really good. There was a interesting language because then reading that, did you read Chatter? We talked about this. I get to send you Chatter. Oh, yeah. That's a really good book. It's a fast read and he talks about the concept of co-rumination in that book, co-rumination. Like, okay, you turn to people for help, like we are in this room, right? Everybody's helping each other here, which is great. And then co-rumination becomes, I'm going to tell you how hard this is. And then, since I want to support you and I think I'm doing you solid as another human being, I will confirm that it is hard and I'll tell you how hard my symptoms are. Oh, wow. And then it's the cycle of co-rumination. I'd not heard that term before. It was really excellent. Really good. Yeah, like co-compulsing. Yeah, right. There you go. Co-compulsing. Yeah. So we have to be really careful. Like, yes, we can acknowledge this is hard. Yep, this is hard. Now we move on as opposed to, yes, it's hard to be cost and I feel this and yes, I feel that a little bit, but then you got to move on. Absolutely. So let's keep going. Physical symptoms. Okay, this is cool. I can't see your name. I'm sorry. It's somebody in my Facebook group. Is it okay to continue with your day, like working? Is that resisting by ignoring? Adriana, you can take that one. Oh, absolutely. It's practicing the while, which is like the key. You can work while you're anxious, while you're uncertain, while you're distressed. Yeah. Yeah. Practicing the while is really good. Sally Winston. I just did it. Did that come out yet? Do you guys on the anxious morning though? I did an episode about while versus, I used while versus another word. I can't remember. Oh, yes. Sally Winston. Play the most Sally Winston without knowing it. Ouch. Um, no, ignoring is so ignoring versus like non engagement, ignoring is the mindset of, Oh, I can't handle it. So I have to like, busy myself with something else versus. Yeah, it can be there while, but I'm not going to give it the loudest voice while I choose to do so while I choose to like focus on what's important. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I did, um, that's true. So again, intent episode 116 of my podcast is called ignoring anxiety versus non-reactive acknowledgement. And I talked about that. So in the end, it all comes down to the intent. If I'm going back to work to drown this out, or am I going back to work while I feel and hear these things? And yeah, there's always some segment of it that drowns it out. That's true. It's never perfect. There's no perfect black or white in these ever. So be careful about that. Um, what else do we have? Let's keep scrolling here. I love the conversations that go on between people. So good. We'll throw this one up. Excuse me. Christine. Hello, Christine. How do you stop resisting that feeling like you are going to die? And I think, I think the thought, the thing that Joanna said earlier, no, no, no, that's a thought. Not a feeling. Right. I mean, there must be a sensation you experience in your body that, that, you know, you'd have. So I think the question is like, there's a sensation in your body that you'd have to work to accept. And there's feelings, you know, there's probably feelings, but there's a sensation in your body that you are then labeling as this is that that feels like dying. But I don't know. But I think that's what I mean by getting granular about it. I don't know. You know, but I think the thought is the meaning you make of those sensations and that feeling that you slap onto it is I'm going to die. I can tell you unequivocally in my own lived experience that that interpretation is exactly what created my panic disorder in 1986. 100%. I had never experienced those sensations before and those thoughts. I did not understand what a panic attack was. And the first time it ever happened, I literally drew the conclusion instantly, this is what it feels like at the end of your life. And that that turned very quickly into panic disorder, because it could not allow it to happen again. But here's also the thing, because I worked 13 years in an eating disorder facility, you can take someone and deprive them of food. If someone doesn't eat well, and I don't mean like Michelin start eating, but I mean, if you skip meals and then get tired, you feel like you're crawling out of your skin. So you begin to get obsessive and you feel like you're crawling out of your skin. And some people will say they feel like they're about to have a panic attack. Now, are you going to label them as having an anxiety disorder? No, they're hungry. They are incredibly hungry. So we have to be very, very careful, because sometimes we label things as like mental when they are really that the person is, their sleep is out of whack, they're not eating consistently, they may be dehydrated. And that's making their, their, you know, their affective things, their mood things so much worse. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. And then you wind up in a situation where for me, after a while, I had to accept the reality like I keep interpreting this as death and it's never death. So understandably, in the beginning, I get that because unless you get some immediate intervention in the form of constructive assurance or psychoeducation, you are going to fall, you can fall into that trap like I did. And like many people here did, I get that. But then at some point there's that realization like it keeps not killing me. I don't so clearly I'm wrong about this. It doesn't make it easier. It's only to turn the switch off. But that there was a level of acceptance, at least in recognizing that also. Yes, you're totally right. It keeps not absolutely right. I went off on a. Yeah, no, no, no, no, what you said was I think that's right. And you know what? That's, you know, who also said that is Lisa Feldman Barrett, the neuroscientist. So yeah, I'm just I'm all over quoting people accidentally. Anyway, so let's keep going here. We'll take a few more before we got to wrap it up. Yeah, there's a lot. But it's a little bit difficult. But so Sue asks, I'll put it up on the screen. Can you have 24 seven arousal with no panic attacks? The answer to that is of course. Well sure you can. I was 24 seven arousal. Okay, you're right. You're right. Let's call out the let's call out the distortion there 24 seven. But you know arousal without the panic attacks. Yeah, people that attacks are often aroused when they're awake, even when they're not panicking. So yes, I get close. I get very close. Yeah, push myself to a panic attack. And I can I get very close. I get the racing thoughts, but then it stops. But yet I still can't do the things or go to the I'm sure she's talking about things that she won't do. In that situation, like, okay, well, I can't make a panic attack, which is fine. You can't you can't force yourself to panic. You either do or you don't. So that's okay. But I still I'll still stop short of going to whatever was the end of that statement supermarket or whatever it would be. So I don't know what your specific thing is. So I would say what's the what's the difference? You know, at some point, like, well, I stop short of doing the thing that I really want to do. Well, at some point, you do the thing instead of stopping short. And that might trigger the panic, maybe. So that making sense. I'm not sure that I answered that question very well. But you know, what happens, I think you have to say, what do you do? What if you actually take the next step and go do the thing that you stop short of? Is yeah, the naming it part is something I haven't been doing properly. Yeah, maybe we'll do a pocket. Do you want to do a pocket episode about that? Because it was recommended that maybe we talk more about that naming it. What you're saying before, like make get make it granular and name it. Oh, yeah, let's do it. All right, we'll record that next week or so. We'll see. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Okay, this is a good one. I think that what has tripped me up on my OCD GAD journey most is my intrusive thoughts are not always what if they are you are. I'm guessing you see this every day. Yeah, it can come in as a command. It can come in. Yeah, I think the assertion, the general basic assertion would be that what if and you are are the same thing. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yes, two forms are the same thing. Now you are might feel more urgent though, because you are here. We hear he's back. X girls X Y Z. I'm sorry. I got to ban him. It's the first time he's been here for a while. Hang on. Block user. Goodbye. Put user in time out and block list. Okay. Sorry about that. Had a block control. Oh, yeah, yeah. You could see it. Wow. You're so good at multitasking. I would be so, I am not a good multitasker. It's a thing. It's a thing. Okay. So this tells me that, hey, we're that popular. Who knew? So let's keep going here. Okay. My dog has been perfect again, Drew. Amazing. Amazing. Your dog is like, I'm going to send my dog to visit your dog so he can learn. I know. Look at that. Amazing. You wouldn't even know that Joanna's dog was there. I know. I can't figure out how it's there. She's there. As opposed to Copper, who will likely to try and make an appearance. Let's see here. Before I was panicking when Drew said we had to have panic attacks to recover. Now I understand it and I don't get scared anymore. Am I maybe getting closer to getting started with exposures? Kind of sounds like it. Sure. Why not, right? It's all about the scale. Yep. Let's see here. We are at about 42 minutes. So we'll take one or two more if we can. I had to create a purpose because let's keep this. Let's see here. I'm just going to scroll and see which one we want to throw up here. Okay. This is good. Let me put this up. Patty Martin has, she talks about purpose, which I think does start to come into play here. I saw that. I thought that was great. Yeah. That's great a purpose because let's keep this in mind. In mind when it hits us, it's hard and all those touches come tumbling down. We're really not. So finding your purpose. I know. It got cut off, but I get it. I think finding a purpose or trying to be connected to a purpose can be so helpful because when we're trying to do these scary things, like be non-resistant, drop resistance, surrender, except they're so hard. They're so counterintuitive. They feel reckless, dangerous, and irresponsible that if you could remain connected to your purpose and why you're doing it in that moment, and what you're trying to get out of your life again, I think it'd be usually helpful. Yeah. It helps us also to rename, to be able to see, because again, fear and excitement, the body doesn't know the difference. So if we can link, if we can connect to the purpose, we can also then start to see it as an opportunity. Yeah. And it's an opportunity to learn something. So I think it's essential to lock into what your why is. I'm doing it right because I need, I want to get to this. Yeah. Yeah. Something because I get it. You do the stuff that we talk about that you hear Joanna talk about people like me talk about and they're manufactured, they're artificial, they're made up scenarios where we're creating things to try and trigger you. And it's so much better when you can connect it really to your life and what some purpose in your life. I get that. But that's a big topic. So I understand that that could be triggering for a lot of people in the community too, but I don't have a purpose. I've lost my purpose. I don't know who I am anymore. I'm just saying, I get that. So that's a whole other topic we can go into. So it'd be easy enough to say, find your purpose. But for a lot of people in this room, you might say, I would love to find my purpose. I've lost my purpose. My purpose is only to not be afraid all day long. So that's another thing we'll talk about for sure. Yeah. So for some people, their purpose, it's not like they're, some people think of purpose and they think, what's my passion? Some people, like my purpose is just to like, be the, you know, show up and be present as a mom, like, like be present for my clients. Like, I don't really know what my passions are. I mean, I mean, I sort of do, but, you know, so showing up and being present is like the greatest gift we could give someone. Yeah. And I also like get like highest level purpose. Sometimes I think that purpose thing, and that's a, it's a really, that's a big topic. I get it. And somebody suggested, it might have been Patty, how about a podcast on finding your purpose? That would be a tough one because I think that's a little bit beyond, it's not beyond it's part of, but it's also kind of a big deal. I can't tell you what your purpose is or how to find it. But what Joanna's saying makes sense because you could start at the smallest little things. Like I'm tired of not meeting my kid at the bus stop. So today I will walk to the bus stop. That's a, that's an expression of purpose. It's a tiny little one-off thing, but that's purpose, right? And think about it. When we are anxious, like my kids notice if I am in my head about work, about, about worrying about another one of my kids, they know if I'm not present. So if, if, you know, my purpose is just to be present while I'm having dinner with my kid, the one that's home, like that is enormous because when we're anxious, we are not present. Let alone like getting my tush to like, there's school or the bus stop or something. Like, so to be actually able to like be present for people is a huge win. Yeah. Yeah. It's no joke. Yeah. It is a big topic. And if you're struggling and you're finding a purpose in life, start from the smallest things. There's nothing wrong with that. And, and those can be the greatest gifts you can give someone. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I'm with you. Yeah. Well, we, we have actually gotten to the end of the comments. I know we didn't answer every possible question. Oh, it was fun. It was not practical, but thank you, my friend. I appreciate you coming in today and, and helping you. Oh, thank you. So for those of you who, again, I will put it up on the screen. If you do not follow Joanna on Instagram, she is just Joanna Hardis. Not just. She's the one and only Joanna Hardis. There's only one. The one and only. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Hopefully mutated. Maybe be communicated. So check out Joanna. She is the real deal. She knows what's going on. Thank you. And Joanna and I do a webinar every month. The next one is December 19th, I think. I'm not sure. I think it is. If you go down to my website, you can check that out. That's bit.ly slash tolerating distress. If you're not sure about that, you check that out. And then we'll be back again next week, or I'll be back. Maybe just me, maybe with somebody else. Don't know. Don't even know what we're going to talk about. We make it up as we go along here. But thanks, guys. I appreciate you coming by and. Thank you. It was so fun. Thank you, my friend. See you guys later. By the way, just remember this is going to stay up on my YouTube channel. It will stay on Facebook and in the Facebook group, but the easiest place to find it is definitely just going back to YouTube. Finding stuff on Facebook is a nightmare. You know we're going to find it. So see you guys next week. We're out. Wow. Thank you.