 Hello and welcome to my career in data a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers I'm your host Shannon Kemp and today we're talking to Nick White from Ken and Cardiff More and more companies are considering investing in data literacy education But still have questions about its value purpose and how to get the ball rolling Introducing the newest monthly webinar series from Dataversity Elevating Enterprise Data Literacy where we discuss the landscape of data literacy and answer your burning questions Learn more about this new series and register for free at Dataversity.net Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at Dataversity And this is my career in data a Dataversity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management To understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier To keep up to date in the latest in data management education go to Dataversity.net forward slash subscribe Today we are joined by Nick White a data strategy director at Ken and Cardiff and Normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest But in this podcast your bio is what we're here to talk about Nick. Hello and welcome Hey, thanks for having me. Oh Thank you so much for being here. So you're a data strategy director at Ken and Carter So tell me about Ken and Carter. What is the company? What is it? They do? Yeah, Ken and Carter is a digital transformation agency We are b-corp certified. So we do care about planet people and profit We kind of do the full stack. So it's not just data. It's applications. It's cloud modernization It's managed services. So, you know over the last few years as we formed We've really created kind of this digital stack that you know can do strategy and implement implementation across all digital products Oh, I love that. So tell me a little bit about why um, you became certified like that. What's why is that important to Ken and Carter? Because we want to use technology to make the world better for everybody. Um, you know, there is a Place where profit and revenue can be responsible and we truly believe in that and that's what we want to be a part of So that's why we went for it and we are the first b-corp Certified company on the london stock exchange. So it's something we're pretty proud of and uh, we continue to work with some responsibility Um, socially and to the planet Oh, I really like that. That's great So tell me then. So what do you do for Ken and Carter? What's your typical work week look like? Well, I'm on a lot of zooms like we are now Um, mostly I am coaching people. I'm working with clients in the space of data transformation Um, there's a lot of thought that goes into how do you approach emerging technologies? So not only do I um run our data strategy practice but I also run our innovation lab where You know, we kind of go into emerging technologies and you can't ignore generative ai Um chat gpt and all this stuff coming out, you know from everybody So we've spent a lot of time quite frankly trying to figure out how do we bring that To our clients and how do we work better with it? So it's it's a little atypical But because this is a watershed moment, I think for ai but in general I'm usually coaching clients or internal folks on how we get the most out of data Oh, I love that a lot So so tell me nick was this the dream when you were about six years old just very young, you know Did you dream like I'm going to be a data strategy director when I grow up? What was the dream? Man, that's a good question. I think I always wanted to be a doctor And I actually went into a university Pre-med, but then I didn't really like science classes. So It's that I just I married a doctor Um, so I just skipped out on that and you know, I took some I took some programming classes in high school like old timey programming classes like it shows my age You know, we were in as 400s doing things like that Um, and I just kind of ran away from it in college So I actually have my bachelor's degree and photo journalism with minors in english and polysci So I kind of went the complete opposite way Yeah in a way. Yeah Yeah, that's fascinating. Do you find that you use that those skills that you learned in that degree still? I didn't know it at the time but What I enjoy doing is telling stories and I think that's what data exists to do If you're using it correctly, so I didn't know at the time, but I was training to One investigate and find root causes and insights and all of that stuff And then, you know, just with my strong past background in system thinking and You know math math. I just kind of Stumbled my way and didn't even know it It was It makes no sense, but it makes a lot of sense when you talk to people that are in data now Sure, absolutely. You know, so so tell me then what was so after college? What was the first job and and what was how did you start transitioning into data? My first job out of college was At a general nutrition center. So a vitamin store and it's just you know, it was something I you know, I graduated in 2003 from college And you know, not a ton of jobs were out at that time. So I kind of did the retail I eventually made my way into newspaper advertising You know, I did some sales, but I started to get more into the pricing realm because I was I was the whiz kid at excel and You know, everybody needed help with their proposals. So that's kind of how I started to sneak my way into it was through marketing advertising and pricing and That's where I spent some of the formative formidable years trying to Figure out like what's the right price for advertising? Hmm. That's a very handy skill. We're still we know we everybody works on that all the time So then what so then what did you do? So then I ended up at a They call them coupon clearing houses, but you know, it was it was related to the same industry But I I started to be part of the verification and fraud. So like now I was going from kind of reactive and you know Analysis to like proactive like how do we put the systems in place and how do we do all that stuff? And really, you know from there I started to think There has to be a way where you know Back it only had to happen once to me But I happen it happens all the time where somebody walks in a room and they say hey Here's the data and somebody that had nothing to do with the data goes. I know that's wrong because of xyc And that started to push me in towards more product management governance quality because I'm like I want to fix that problem Because I think nobody's paying attention to it So that's when I got into a little bit of big data and helping to support, you know Retail and cpg clients and then made my way, you know from there to You know product ownership and really leaning into that mindset and trying to apply it to data and governance and quality um, so, you know just kind of made my way through retail and cpg and um made my way finally to you know, nike where I was a Data governance director and like that was my job um So I really leaned into it there. Um, and then what I What I noticed there was uh, you know data governance All these terms we're talking about even my title are very nebulous like what do they mean? um And at the end of the day, I just kind of walked away from it saying You know, it's more about enabling people with data than it is about governing data And that's kind of that's what I brought to ken and kardo was just this mindset of You know, we need to I call it data product enablement, but we need to find a way To make the data have value So that was that was 20 years of me just kind of weaving and bobbing and doing all sorts of different things around data To just end up trying to you know, bring it back to kind of my journalism roots and setting context and telling the story and making sure everybody understands the story You know, I I love that path as you say, you know It doesn't make sense and it does make so much sense right and through a lot of these interviews You know, I'm finding that following passion and being curious really lends to To exactly where you are right? And to a successful career path and just being open to learning and exploring Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean I always say it's curiosity and being able to make logical connections And then you have you have the right mindset for this type of work in my opinion Makes a lot of sense So tell me nick. What was the biggest lesson so far in your career? Something that you use daily Oh, man I I have learned that It's not so much about being great at everything It's about leaning into the things that you're great at And I think the more that people be themselves and lean into their strengths and kind of minimize the weaknesses that come with those strengths That's where I've started. That's where I feel like my career has started to really Take off and I felt more at ease and like I know what I'm doing and I know where I'm going Is just following what you know who I am which is Not a serious guy. I I'm kind of laid back and it works with people, you know And also just the idea of I'm I'm good at math. I'm good at logic puzzles and Hey, just lean into that Other people could be good at other things and it's not going to matter if you're good at, you know, those are not Oh, I like that. I've had a lot Yeah, so many and you know, I've made that mistake too, you know to Try and be great at everything. Just think that I should have the answer to everything And that never did me any good Never will So So I love that so tell me then nick what's your definition of data and how do you work with it? Yeah, sure. Um, I mean data is information Um Full stop like that's what it is. Um, it's not this thing that you know is in a data base It's not just digital data. It's not just things in rows and columns, you know, like I've I've had discussions. Well is you know, there's content and there's data. I'm like, uh Content is data like it's information. It's so to me data is all of the Things that we Talk about all of the things that we care about with around a business And it's just it's information like and I wish people knew that more and weren't as Scared that's why I'm so passionate about like We have to demystify it and we have to make people just know Hey, like data doesn't come out of thin air somebody created it and now you're using it. So Let's just describe what's happening. That's it Ah, that's really that's really nice. And how do you work with it daily in your job? Yeah, I mean today I I've been focused a lot on the data strategy and getting all the pieces in place so I'm super focused on Probably more of the decision science, which is like this old thing But then now it's kind of new it's back and it's got a different branding Just like what what the heck was a data scientist back in the day but like in my mind it's how do I try to Connect business outcomes and what people want to happen To the data that they're using to drive towards those So a lot of my work is kind of in between the lines And just trying to say hey, you know, if you want to achieve this You know, did you know it's you know impacted by this and At the end of the day data is answering questions or automating processes So what are the questions you need to answer? So a lot of my time is just trying to Be data by data stuff and just say hey, it's information. It's answering questions And it should be a part of driving business. It's not this stepper thing So a lot of my time has spent talking to you know, leading teams and making sure that we're Hitting the mark when we're building something and also helping clients to kind of go from You know what I would call is like A gaseous state of like, I think I know what I need to do to like At least, you know a semi solid state where it's like, yes, that's what we should do with data because I I'm sure you've seen it Shannon, but like The statistics are stark at how much gets invested and how little gets rolled out into production or adds value So that's I am right in there trying to do Stuff that I would probably sleep better if I if I didn't get in there With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year The Dataversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success Browse the complete catalog at training dot dataversity.net and use code dbtalks for 20 off your purchase Well I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit because you brought up all of these fun data keywords data strategy data governance We get a lot of questions, you know, what's the difference between a data strategy data management data governance What are those things? I don't know if there is, you know, I think that's why I run away from all of those terms if I can like Data management, it's a thing, right? Like you're you're managing data. You're doing that stuff, you know But when I work with clients, it's like, well, you could say governance establishes the policies and then stewardship is the actual you know Doing it and then like sometimes they throw a business Enablement part of it and I really just try to knock all those down and say Hey, that's one thing is like it should be about ensuring that When you're building data things, they're being used and they're adding value And how do you do that? You do that by understanding the data And knowing when it's good or not and how to use it So to me, I just like I run away from some of those terms because I don't know when you hear strategy Shannon, you might be like, oh These are the guys that think tell us what to do and like they're, you know Everybody does straight strategy. So that's why like I don't even like my title sometimes. I'm just like, yeah, like you know, so in my opinion Cut it any way you need to but at the end of the day You got to focus on value and you want to build things the right way that's extensible And I don't care what you call it. You got to do it You have a favorite story of a client finding Value in their data Yeah, there's so I spent I spent some time, um You know at Nike and what I would say is They've done really well with data and they're way ahead of their competitors You know in the space But one of the things that I enjoyed the most was You know, and I called it kpi alignment where you just kind of say these are the things you're measuring and This is how it impacts your job like so is it actually helping you To impact the business are you in control over it? And I think You know having an opportunity to just focus on You know our supply chain we focused on supply chain kpi's And just focusing on the fact that hey like if you don't do the legwork to say We want to do x And this is your role in impacting x all the way down to the person that's planning things You miss out so I just The idea of a kpi tree to just illuminate this back to everybody That was my biggest win and it really made me think about like hey I'm assuming this but Everybody misses it so That was really cool for me to Have an impact on the organization kind of stand up this new capability for them And I love that Very good example So Tell me nick been do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years and why? um That depends what you define is is as a president once said, um I think it's changing Look if people aren't aware generative ai is going to Reduce and change drastically what engineers of all kinds are doing You're missing out like people can you know to use a very technical term poo poo it But at the end of the day, there are practical applications that are going to change the way that we interact with data um even think about You know the way that a traditional data management professional Would try to manage data like I don't have to have rows and columns. I don't have to have a schema We're talking about just semi-structured data And a well refined prompt will do a lot of Of what we're struggling with today so I think I think it's going to become you know the idea of less you know making the donuts and you know more Trying to figure out which donuts to make if that makes sense because And I would I want everybody to use data like this should be democratizing to everybody Yeah, um, so in my mind, you know, I probably didn't answer your question. I think they will change um And I think you know people shouldn't be scared Um of losing jobs But rather the fact that they will change and you will be able to have more impact and you'll be able to focus on creative value, you know things like frameworks things like that that really You know tell the computers how to interpret it. So That's my answer. I mean, it's so weird. I don't even know how to answer right now. I just feel like it will Change but yeah Things are changing so fast. Yeah, you know, it's just it is hard to keep up um, but uh Yeah, do you think that generative AI will help? uh companies use more data I'm really encouraged by um Almost the no-code solution. We're seeing some of them come out, right? um Was it like I think data bricks already is planning It's going to be all built in and there's going to be a side panel and like I can go in as Somebody who hasn't coded in a long time and probably you know, that's when I knew it was going to be big is I I took a few classes in and I was like, oh Like I'm right back in it because it's just about structuring thoughts So I think it will make people be able to have more data, you know, but then again, it comes with All of the work to make sure that data is correct um, so I I feel like Maybe in our space of data management more but different Yeah, engineering and pipelining Yeah, different probably less and different. So You know, it's just I don't know if you've played with it, but it is just amazing. I have yeah So and I I'd love to capture that um, you're still learning you're still Out there. We yeah we were asked um, we're One of the guys in marketing asked me in my um co-director of our labs Hey, like what's a good idea using generative AI? for next year's austin city limits Or south by southwest one of I don't it doesn't matter like we're not a band. So south by southwest um, it's like I cannot answer what's going to be cool In a year. I can't even answer what's going to be cool in three, you know three months like I feel like okay, you know, there's something there with the metaverse and AR and you know Spatial computing there's probably something there, right? Like are we all going to turn into tony stark and iron man? probably some version of it sometime in the near future, but like I we laughed because um The same guy asked us the same question To in two different meetings and we sat almost the exact same thing like no idea what's cool. Yeah. Yeah, it's so true um So what device then would you look give to people who are looking to get into some area of data? I I mean, maybe this is the journalist to me, but you know Don't bury the lead. Don't be um Don't be Distracted by shiny objects like there are a lot of cool things, but I keep going to this the fact of You know, what's the problem space? What's the outcome? That's where humans are going to like Exist in this area is how do we How do we tell a computer how to work with data interpret data? And that's why I'm so big on like I was even telling our CEO I was like decision science is the next thing call it whatever you is but whatever it is but The people that will make sure that The thing is right versus just there are the people that are going to Be needed and we're we're in super short supply of those people Very very true. I love that that's great advice Well, Nick, I would be remiss if I didn't ask, you know, how would people find you and solicit services from Ken and Carter Absolutely, you can go to our website, which will provide you with this Um, you can also reach to reach out to me on linkedin. Um, I don't ignore messages unless hey You're trying to sell me something but if you need something we're we're always there and I think we have a ton of terrific information Case studies, you know, you can go through the the website and it'll it'll tell you a lot about kind of how we Existed as this boutique digital consulting firm and kind of found our way to having an identity So it would be great if people went there and you can see some of the blogs I've published and you can see some of the case studies that we've worked on Um, and that would be terrific Oh, that'd be great. And yeah, we'll get all those URLs from you and get that posted to the website when we publish the podcast. So Nick, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I I love talking about this stuff. So it's really no It's not even hard for me to do this Well, it definitely shows and really appreciate it. So Thank you. And to all of our listeners out there If you'd like to keep up to date on the latest podcast and in the latest in data management education You may go to dataversity net forward slash subscribe until next time and stay curious everyone Thank you for listening to dataversity talks a podcast brought to you by dataversity Subscribe to our newsletter for podcast updates and information about our free educational webinars at dataversity net forward slash subscribe You