 This is the Generative Commons call for Wednesday, September 1st, 2021. Welcome to September. Good board. How did that happen? Hey Stacy. So I was just, I was just prompted by saying Buenos Rinos to tell the story that my one of my first jobs, maybe my first actual sort of part time job in the world was at Disneyland in the park of Nenaheim on the jungle cruise. And we had to memorize this feel it was like aside from being on stage someplace act, you know, doing some performance. It was the only place in the park where you weren't just sort of taking tickets or moving people around you actually had to memorize this feel and be on the boat. And I'm pretty sure that that fun part of the ride which was you had a we had a nickel plated Smith and Wesson 38. It was our weapon. And it was loaded with blanks. And at one point, you may remember rhinos would storm was it hippo hippo hippos would storm the boat, and you had to shoot them, right. And then right after that, so that's a little pool and they storm the boat you shoot them and then you turn left. The whole boat was on a rail. So you had no steering but you had full control of the throttle. It was your pace to go out and believe it or not believe it or not we did not have walkie talkies. So the gun was a communication device. If you heard six large we had we had normal blanks that we were reloading the gun with all the time. And you were supposed to shoot the hippos with three shots. But then you had loud blanks extra loud blanks. And if you heard six loud blanks that meant stop everything. Take the boat back to the dock. And if you get it, it meant that been a heart attack, something bad, but we had no walkie talkies which I like in retrospect I'm like, I'm not that old. It's like, did we like semaphore signals I don't know. But anyway, we had, we had our spills and we had closing lines so it's like, as we say in the jungle are river dirty. Buenos rhinos. We had other bad, you know, bad punny closings. But I'm pretty sure the Smith and Wesson is gone. I can't imagine a scenario under which that survived at Disney in the in modern culture. It was fun. And then just just as a symbol of how long ago that was, I have no photographic evidence of my time there. I wasn't allowed to bring a camera, you know, on stage, because there's backstage and on stage, your cast members they think of it as like one big theater that's part of the framing. And I don't we never sat and took pictures like didn't bring a camera to work ever and was before everybody was packing a high definition video camera in their pocket. So so so it's too bad because what I've got left over a couple artifacts that I kept in my I still have my badge. You know, my little Disney badge and stuff. Anyway, sorry for the long regression, but it was really fun. Quick comments. I grew up in Costa Mesa and Irvine. And one year had been to Disneyland about 22 times. Oh my God. You know, it's so easy to get there. Yeah. And, you know, school trips, blah, blah, blah. What's that what's that freeway that goes from Costa Mesa straight up to Anaheim is the 95. 55. Yeah, Newport, Newport freeway. Yeah. And so I went to Marina High School in Huntington. Oh, and I didn't. Okay. Which at the time had 4000 students at the time we were the largest or second largest high school west of the Mississippi was insane. And then I went to Irvine all four years. UCI. Yep. Yeah. I lived at campus in Culver. Right across from UC, a university high school where I went and during my senior year I took classes at UC Irvine. Yeah, it was. I got some great stories, but basically, you know, as a, you know, 17 year old among graduate students, great fun. I bet. Also the so I was there with the original chancellor the guy who founded the university then Aldrich Chancellor Dan. And the campus was a circle, and he was an agricultural economist or something around trees. And so he had planted a huge variety of trees across campus they was just like all over. And also the campus was one of the first frisbee golf courses. But you could see clearly across campus like that. And then the last couple of times I visited the campus. It is impenetrable with trees like it like it is a big for us now. You could build a ship, you know, going through and harvesting the lumber that has grown up in the intervening time. So it's really pretty cool. The farm was there. There was a farm nearby but I don't remember ever visiting it or seeing it. Yeah. Yeah, no, there was a it's no longer there but there was a campus farm. Everything is no longer there that the entire area is unrecognizable. When I went to Marina High School I used to bicycle the school past a dairy, believe it or not. And it smelled like cow, like every day, you know, every day to and fro little little bicycle was just like. Well gone. I remember when Irvine had orange trees. And also, like anybody who was a long timer in Silicon Valley, Silicon Valley used to have dates and oranges and stuff like that, all over the orange groves all all over the place. So we're all being. We're all being civilized. California memories. Can I do my story check in. I would love a sensation you will never have because you were born in America is how it is to actually come to America. When you only saw it in television. Actually, I grew up in South America I didn't come to the US until I was seven years old and I didn't live in the US until I was 13 so I do have a little bit of that. But please go ahead. I went to New York that's the one place I visited in America. And then when I arrived, it was like, I noticed then before all of it seemed like a separate reality it's kind of fiction all of it. And then when I was walking on the streets in New York, I was looking around I was like, Wow, I'm in a movie. And still when I hear you talk, I am. I notice how all the images I get by what you're saying is kind of movie ish. I also think about all the fun fair parks I was in. And another kind of dimension of the same kind of dynamic, but the other way around I guess is, there's this very small, I don't know if I told you this story, but it's a very small town, very, very small, like 40 people, 80 people I'm not sure, Belgium, and we went to go fishing there. And then we were sitting at this. And we would have a walk along this path back and forth. In a small place, nobody would ever know and they had this beer that they always would drink and I would notice they would drink the beer after in college. I guess it's the age around. I noticed they have the beer on tap that was kind of special. Oh, there's this link. And then last year I was in Amsterdam or two years ago. And they told me they've had been to Japan, and the same beer you could find there. With the town of 40 people. So it's this kind of thing where these, these kind of very personal childhood experiences are part of everybody's imagery. I've heard the name. It's got this small leprechaun, but you can get it anywhere in the world, which is really weird. Isn't that crazy? Can you explain Belgium country of 1000 beers next to Denmark clear near Denmark country of two of like one beer. It's like, what happened? Why was there an insane diversity in one and like on the duopoly and the other. Yeah, in my family, there used to be an Albanian guy working in the firm of my dad. And after they brought in his brother who worked also in their garden. He's a really good artist. And he now is a plan to bring beer into Albania. There is no beer almost there and no quality beer. It's like a perfect business model, I think. These people don't know beer. When they succeed, they will buy a lot of beer. When these people don't know beer yet, we'll get them drunk, they'll buy a lot of beer. They have other things than beer. So they already are drunk. Yeah, that's true. They've got this liquor. I can't remember the name now, but we've got a whole bottle here. And it's made of fruit, quite strong. And just white liquor, but nice. Pretty. Anyhow, I'm curious also what this call is about today. What this calls, oh good, me too. But I just wanted to ask if anybody else wants to check in with a story. Actually, I have to leave at 1030, but could you pause the recording for a minute. You bet. And what kind of animal will be seeing the vet. Oh, Marley, my dog. Anybody want to check in with a story? Good. Okay. So this is the generative comments call. And we've been wandering a lot. But the general idea, and it's funny because Michael, the reason these calls are still going is that Michael of Fluss or Michael of Factor had been just asking really great questions about this. Like, so how does this work? What are we doing? So this call originates with three paragraphs of legal language around intellectual property that were in the memorandum of understanding draft, between OGM ish sort of OGM as a tiny entity and Lyonsburg, which is Jordan Sukwit's entity that's been trying to bring a bunch of little little organizations like OGM into entrepreneurship and into the future economy and a bunch of other things. And so we saw the three paragraphs like this is very old school. You know, it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't assume openness. It doesn't whatever. And that took us quickly into a really interesting conversation out of which the idea of what if there was a generative agreement arose. So, you know, Creative Commons has a bunch of really nice licenses that you can pick, you know, attribution, share alike, et cetera, et cetera. And they've done a nice job for copyright, but they don't do anything about patents and trademarks, and they don't do anything about the spirit of cooperation. So, so partly what we're thinking about with a generative commons is what does an agreement look like that lets people participating know know that the dominant intention of participants is to feed the commons to add things to the commons to enrich the commons to which which means donating code to the commons putting data in the commons, making the data more interoperable whatever whatever it takes to make the commons better. And there's a there's a an essay I've started that I haven't gotten very far into titled data is the new soil, because when people say data is the new oil I get all creepy crawly and I hate it. Because it's about like it's about how do we capture data how do we sequester data. And by saying data is the new soil. I want to talk about regenerativity and the idea that if we had great shared data that honored sovereignty, but still was really useful together to make better decisions together. That would be really like great for society so I've not gotten very far into that piece, but it's but it's of the spirit of the generative commons it's like, hey, how do we create an agreement that anybody could just put on the footer of their website or or like mentioned right like by the way we work in the spirit of the generative commons maybe something like that, which would which would then also say, and we realize that people need to make a living somehow and so and we also realize that there are privacy concerns around shared data. So those factors also factor into the generative commons. So, so not everything will be completely open this is not a this is not a mandate that everything be pride into the public sphere. This is an intention that the work, the collaborations all be nurturing to all, you know, to all parties involved and the parties outside the camp that can't see whatever it is people are doing. So we have generative commons.org I think is a website where there's nothing to sort of nothing there. In our first conversation people was like, well, first thing we should do is generative commons or Jerry you shouldn't be owning that domain we need to create a new entity that that and transfer that domain to it. And I'm like, yeah, but what entity, and who's going to be in that room, and we don't know. And so we've had a bunch of different conversations since since then. And Michael from factors particularly interested in this because he's interested within OGM in general, he having a for benefit kind of company and factor, like okay so when when when he plays here and when things get created. He's working on whose benefit and on whose clock and who's making money from what like like what are the relationships, what are the ties and I'm probably misstating his, his, his intentions and concerns with the issue but but he's sort of justifiably concerned about like how do I how do I get clarity on who's responsible for what who owns what where do things go. I know in several calls with him as well as correct me if I'm kind of like offroading here, but I'll pause I'll pause now and see what, what else you'd like to say. Does that make sense. The question was to stay here. Nothing. Go ahead. Okay. Yeah, I have a specific question but also because I made this statement about funding and getting money and then there seems to be a link with it, but I'm not sure because it sounds like a starting idea. And I'm wondering if it's something you really think artists will get us money or is it more like a very long term thing that you would like to create like I can describe, I can describe that, you know, I can just describe the current state of that, which, which is there is a there's a little entity that's basically not a lot more than me that's called boots, GM bootstrap that has signed a memorandum of understanding to become a fiscal spawn C of Lyonsburg. All that means is that Lyonsburg is a 501 C3 charity in the you a registered charity in the US. It's registered in 50 states which is hard to do. So it's slow, it's slow to get 501 C3 certification, and it's hard to go to 50 states and get get like enrolled properly. They've done that. And so, and so any entity that is under their umbrella can act as a charity across the US, at least, and sort of engage in and stuff and can take grant funding can take donations that are tax free that are right off to the donor, which is cool. So that so that and that took a long time to sort of get to that agreement and a bunch of things happened with all the little entities that were kind of floating alongside each other into that into that path. Yeah. And then it's my current task to go pitch people to actually fund OGM to send some money over, because they would be funding the this effort under the spirit of the general commons is part of how that evolved to build out portions of infrastructure and group process and other things that will help humans make better decisions together, which is sort of the simplest line I have for OGM's purpose is like helping humans make better decisions together. Because you know there's individual decision making cool find is a bunch of stuff you could look into there, but this is really about collaboration, and because it's about collaboration or collective sense making, or collective intelligence, etc. The words are all interesting. Because it's about that in an era of low trust where trust is under assault. A piece of our mission has to do with trust and like how do we defend ourselves against a bunch of actors in the world who are trying to undermine facts, science journalism, election integrity. Trust in the other, right, if we can do everything, what is I said innovation because yeah I mean Google Yahoo, the big one spying up all the good ideas and then just letting them die out that's also killing the innovation. And so that's kind of so I'm trying to pick and then unfortunately, every second or third call I'm involved in like this one involves the idea of what OGM means and is into something slightly different. So I'm pitching sort of changes and how I describe it changes I've had really generative question really generative conversations but but to this point, not that much success, getting like somebody to send $100,000 into here. So that, so that we might, we might separate that into funding of projects. And originally I was thinking of fellowships and fellows, but but Pete, and Pete's had a whole series of really good ideas some. Conversational twists have originated with Pete, some with Michael, some with others, some with Stacy. And so one of the things was Pete saying hey why don't we turn this into projects instead of people that way we can start to frame up things with a deadline and a mission statement and a project plan and an understanding of a small team, and then money going in there is trackable and traceable and sort of have a dashboard that says here's all the projects. So one of the things like on Monday, and the free jury's brain call. We're trying to figure out how to take big interesting projects like Mark on 20% has ideal loom and hyper knowledge. And how can he frame small pieces of those projects in of those large projects into small project plans that are fundable. And, and that fit into the large mosaic of where OGM thinks it's headed. And so part of what I what I showed yesterday on the build OGM call was a draw a set of drawings of five layers of what this mosaic might look like. And where are we headed and who is who is sort of along to the ride, what are what what things are happening and then one of those layers was the project layer that combines the vision of what we think we're building with the entities that are here playing. And then a project would be like a little tile piece in the big mosaic and a tile piece that that is a triple word score is a tile piece that serves Mark on trans hyper knowledge project massive wiki for Pete and also OGM that would be like a big win. Let's fund that early. Right. And then what we don't have at this point is a dependency diagram of which module comes before which one, which is a little hard to do. There's a bunch of separate areas that aren't really interdependent like that. So they don't have dependencies but in other cases you could imagine. If we need to be able to do this then we can do this then we can do this so that'll be part of one of these sort of diagrams as we go, but we're trying to figure out how to have a map, a list, a dashboard of all the projects that all the entities and OGM would like to have funded, and we'd like to have a process where everybody knows how to write a project plan with a template like here fill this out put this over here. And then as we get sort of grant funding and we'll we'll start those things up. And there's plenty of plenty of different things. And then last piece is, there are some potential businesses to stand up within OGM. So it's not that OGM will live forever from grant funding, but rather that grant funding would help stand up some things that might actually keep OGM going as a sustainable for benefit business. So one of them, for example, is this idea of story threading, which is like graphic facilitation but sort of the opposite of graphic facilitation. And 30 years ago, nobody knew what a graphic facilitator was and you couldn't hire one. And these days if you Google for them, you'll find you know dozens of graphic facilitators you can go hire them. They'll come into your your event or your meeting and they'll they'll make a beautiful drawing of what's happening and synthesize it, and hand you back some PDFs or some jpegs of what they drew and that's kind of the end of what they do. I'm not thinking this idea called story threading and I'm happy to go into more detail, but there could be sort of a hiring hall for story threaders that lives on top of OGM, that is a for benefit business, and where people make a living doing that there could be other kinds of roles, Pete envisioned something called context weavers that do a lot of what Pete sort of does, and weave it into the larger entity. And the last thing I'll explain it and then I'll go quiet is that so. So, one of the ideas that came up just a couple weeks ago and came from Pete again was is OGM and organization is an entity or is it really a hashtag or a movement. And as we talked that like it doesn't need to be an organization. It's a line as an intention and a movement and a hashtag what it what my fear is that it then just gets really vague and fuzzy and nobody really knows what it means, unless it's kind of an entity, but there could be a series of entities so. So the thing that I'm now describing to people is a show. And it's on the surface above ground, it looks like a blog or a podcast and it's called weaving the world. And we go interview people who are busy weaving the world who are so we're trying to solve. People who seem to have interesting solutions for the world's problems, which are many, which are like there's no, this is this is job security, unfortunately, unfortunate job security if we can get this thing funded, and that there's like an endless supply of problems in the world and solve those problems, but on the surface it looks like a blog and there's there's actually a couple million podcasts already I think, but below the surface we're doing OGM a things with everything that happens. So we're post processing every call. I'm live braining other people are mapping. We're connecting those maps underneath in what we call either the big quilt, which is a nice metaphor, but it's kind of an it's kind of a passive metaphor for the big fungus, which, alas, I'm really liking a lot just because it's memorable, it's funny, and it's equally a good metaphor, because and here I tell a small side story about leaf cutter ants do you know about leaf cutter ants have you heard me tell the story. Eric have you heard it. Okay, leaf cutter ants. So, I'll try to do this in a minute. Leaf cutter ants can digest leaves. So why the heck are they up in the trees cutting down all these leaf bits and carrying them into the nest well in the nest they hand them off to a subspecies of that particular kind of ant. And that little subspecies mulches up the leaf matter with their spit, and then puts that on a fungus these leaf cutter ants are also known as farmer ants because they are farming this fungus. The fungus metabolizes the leaf matter and uses a nectar and little tasty bits, which is what all of the ants eat. So they have a symbiotic relationship with its fungus it turns out that there's white powder on the thorax and body of the ants that are right there at the fungus face. So if you just went and scraped off some of that fun some of that white powder, it's a bacterium that is like that is like protecting the fungus is crazy there's like layer upon layer of interesting symbiosis going on with these leaf cutter ants. Long story short, by feeding my brain for 23 years I felt like the lone ant at the fungus space, and because I published my brain online awkwardly because it has to be in the brain format only and it's not there's no API so it's hard to share blah blah blah. I would love to be doing this collaboratively with with anyone else who feels like it. I would love to be like gardening this this shared fun the big fungus, so to speak, with everyone else. Right. And that's so that's so metaphorically and maybe that's too many layers of explanation here, but metaphorically that's one of the goals of GM at this point is like, how can we feed the fungus together under the generative Commons agreement and spirit. And while funding people so that they can like make a nice living feeding the fungus and doing business using these shared new assets for organizations, you know strategies and well being. Does that all make sense. It does. I'm, I'm hesitating because I don't want to take over the call. But I, which I won't, but let me give you that let me give you that opening for a second. Let me give you that opening because one of the things that's important to us that we'd like to do is figure out who do we sit next to Eric, who do we sit next to you so that the ideas in your head turn into aspects of the generative Commons while helping you make a living. Right. There's plenty of layers that I would like to name which is probably similar to other people here in GM as well. Like I've been having talks with Vincent, mostly that's the guy that I interact with most on project level and he's been working real hard like he does 60 hours per week or something and building his project. I've been doing 15 years of research, and it's not just didn't just cost me time and effort. It also cost me a lot of energy just maintaining this so it's like unquantifiable what I did versus what he did. And then I arrive at the. And understand, okay, this is probably going to be the simplest way like I have 15 years of research and then I end up with basically an outline idea outliner software, which can handle almost anything. So, and then when I look at it, it looks like, wow, this could really work. I'm like, hmm. Okay, now copyright comes in. And I don't want other people to steal it. And I noticed the same with Vincent like he's also sometimes afraid people would take his ideas. He's really measuring if he would share something with me. And he's also thinking about same ideas as you're talking about here. And for me, it's a really important piece of the puzzle to figure out. Second thing I want to say is, I'm a paradox I'm living paradox. And then, but I also want to live with the paradoxes. And one of the paradoxes for instance, is on one end I want to be open flexible, include everyone on the other level, I really want to move forward, get money, get practical. I want to be open, inclusive, compassionate, empathic. And sometimes I also want to be like really clear about, yeah, this is not going to move it forward so I would like to bring in my honesty in certain moments as well. And that's something I wanted to say now as a clear statement, because that will help me be honest without it being, I don't want to force anyone anywhere I just want to be clear on things. I don't know this when it happens. Why I maybe said this before and, but yeah, that's my start. And I, I, I like the idea the practicalities of its interest me, and I'm open to listen what you wanted to talk about today I don't know if there was an agenda or something. So there's no agenda for this call and I think we've gotten to why I mentioned to you that you might want to be on this call is that is that what you just put on the table is kind of like right where we are we're trying to sort sort those things out and Michael if you want to step in and sort of pick up the something because I, you know, you've been stirring the pot really well here as well. And, you know, I'd love to sort of I'd love to construct this conversation well. Yeah, I mean I'll just step in to say that we're I've been here for five, 10 minutes or something and which, you know, touched on all the same things that, you know, we always touch on that sort of both stimulate us and and and keep us from moving forward. I feel like we're there's there's a phrase that I catch myself using and Jerry I'm projecting on to you here so forgive me but you know I catch you using is we're trying to figure out how to whatever you know in the in the great scheme of things and the trying to figure out trying to figure out anything trying to figure out how and then insert, you know, metaphor here, I mean, which we all you know we're we're the kind of thinkers you know we think in metaphors and we're we're trying to figure out. There we go. You know we're trying to figure out how to make it all together and exist in the Commons and be my psyllium and, you know, save the world through our big brains in Jerry's case literally and Mark's case too. Well, no, I mean just just that I meant the word the brain, you know, but yeah, yeah. And, you know, I mean, I admire and appreciate. Sorry, Stacy, do you do you want to step in for a minute and say anything you've been thinking because I can, you know, I'm totally good. I'm totally good. Sorry, I have to go. Cool. And if you want to if you want to phone in from your car while you're driving your dog to the vet, you're welcome to hang out phone like that. But thanks for being here. Thanks. Bye bye. Yeah, and I mean, Vincent stands as sort of an interesting touch point for all of us, you know, I mean we all go on to Vincent because Vincent is you know kind of he's he's making without totally figuring out. And I can second guess a lot of things that Vincent's doing, you know, and that he's building stuff that other people have already built. He like hasn't figured out his business model. He is not, you know, he's, he's trying to make something. You know, I mean his heart's in the right place but at the same time, he's putting himself in the situation which given capitalism and copyright and all that stuff as you were saying Eric, you know, means like, oh well this is mine. What how does this work. I mean, Vincent and Wendy and are getting together tomorrow and meet space which is kind of cool you know we haven't haven't seen each other before though we it's it it constantly stymies me and and Jerry, and probably Mark have heard me say this before that it's just, you know, I bring factor this existing entity flawed as it is that was established as a Delaware where a C court, which had I to do it all over again probably wouldn't have been the model I went for because we're not looking for you know VC funding at this point. And, but, you know we're all we're all stuck in this okay I've got this you've got this you've got that you've got you've got 15 years of study you've got you know, Jerry you've got your brain mark you've got you know your hands on experience with, like, you've got both your, your brain your, you know, what you call it, you know your amassed art project thoughts, you know, and, you know, and and something that would be so great. If we all had your mx. Okay. And, and your, you know, your hands on day to day with the Internet archive which seems like super relevant to everything we're doing. And so here we are, you know, how do we, how do we put this together for everybody. And, you know, because of the forms and ownership and, you know, costs and you know we can't, we've got all this work we've got all this goodness, and we can't capitalize on it, because of the state in which it exists and its lack of interoperability and the lack of the lack of the lack of the need for formal structures in the society we live in, you know the need for money. Well, I'll stop there, but you know, I. Wow, difficult so my mind binders up a picture and the more information I get the picture starts moving in more crawling directions but anyhow, it's kind of the opposite that I want to say. I think we need something practical that can move us forward is a simple version of this. Another idea is that, yeah, I figured out different business models and they could work if I've got enough people. And other idea I have is like if we've got enough good people that trust each other that hold each other accountable for each other's copyright issues. I think we kind of know what if we do, for instance, if we would just send each other an email with our copyrighted stuff that is kind of a proof that we have copyright and that we build up something that's like that. You can literally notarize things you could send them to the archive and and offer that up in a court of law as proof as proof that something exists that that's very doable I mean you're saying you're saying how do we what sort of transaction will guarantee that we said like we invented this way back when. No, maybe I'll try to simplify how can we trust each other is just by trusting the group as a whole as long as we are group of course I mean that's. And that's maybe not an easy thing to keep on being a group but for now it works fine it seems. I'm just trying to get clarity I. I have different business models, which if we would do then they probably would generate money. There's another level is okay. It seems like we're doing all this vague mindy stuff that doesn't get funding easily because it's so meta and it's so not oriented towards what normally gets money, but that just needs kind of a good translation that people get. Wow. What happened. Yeah, no sorry that was just about I thought I lost a call. No no no right here. No it's just the job update you know just everything nothing's more important than the other. So, then I think. It completely lost my what was the last thing I was saying. I wish we could play rewind right here just like back back and play it back for ourselves. I've been taking notes, you're talking about business models and to keep on the group, the different business models how can we trust each other if we've got enough good people to trust each other something practical to move us forward. The structures and society we live in the last thing I said. I, in terms of funding and finding funding is finding the good funds that might be open to us and then have good translation to generate funds might turn out to be much more easy if you get the right kind of people that understand funding that are open enough but also it's a lot about translation of like this is what we're doing and I'm trying and improving that we make a real difference, I would say. And I like there's different levels to this but like, how do you prioritize which one gets funded and for which reason. I don't think this is a right answer but there's something about yes something that really makes a difference that proves to people what we're doing makes a difference. And then we kind of need to figure out which of the project is potentially making a difference is easy to realize. And that's what I hear in this kind of part, you're going to take a part of a project that's easily realizable, I guess as well. So then I wonder where we really get stuck. What is the exact place of getting stuck or not being able to move forward to get the funding. Is it, is it because you're constantly strategizing, is it because you're not clear or is it because you're trying to bring too much together at the same time I'm not sure. You're not stuck maybe. I'm kind of stuck and just for me personally it's that the idea is is a bit of a strike like you just said involves a lot of metaphors as Michael pointed out. And I'm trying to figure out a sort of simple way to explain this thing so that people can go oh that that makes a lot of sense. And so the conversations I am having and they're slow are busy like that redigesting refactoring reprocessing how I explain this thing and what it is, so that it is simple enough to sort of understand and stand up. And that that has been a frustrating process but but on but on the other hand, like I have 23 years worth of brain data that we've spilled out into a pile of JSON objects and in a file directory actually in a small database. I, I am perfectly happy to have that live entirely in the Commons under, you know, CC zero or whatever else. So, so we kind of, and we've been putting stuff on GitHub, we kind of have assets of some sort we just haven't gotten very far moving them one of the tiny project that I'm realizing is not on the diagram I just drew yesterday. One of the tiny projects is to get is to give Pete some funding so that he can import the brain into massive, for example, so that it will live as a series of markdown files with some metadata. That's interesting and that's something that other people can play with and start to use but yeah, so we're, it's weird. So from, from my perspective, I'm really interested in working hard with anybody who is willing to feed the Commons a lot. You know, to figure out like a business model somewhere along in there but but anyone but anyone who's who's concerned about protecting all of their ideas like we're not, we're not going to get the ideas out of the world. It's not going to happen. So, so let's find people who are just really interested in sharing heavily. Can you repeat last part because I didn't get just the last two sentences actually. Well, I met I met a genius inventor named Sandy Klaus for 20 years ago. You know Sandy Mark. Yeah, you're muted but yeah. So, Sandy is like a pre cog or something like that. He has made like made no money he's been trying to sell Intel or somebody. And this idea that he has invented from from the hardware from from the from the hardware all the way up to reinventing the web and networking and everything. Something called Cubicon, which he invented in macro mind director. I think. Anyway, anyway, the funny story. The funny semi tragic story is that at some point 15 plus years ago, Apple changed the resolution of their screens they went from rectangular pixels to square pixels or vice versa I don't know which. In that act, they basically froze Sandy because he had 4000 diagrams drawn and director that didn't work in the new pixel in the new pixel thing. So none of Sandy's work is actually code, but there's actually multiple ponies there because he's had a he's like really smart. And so in his head and in a bunch of animation drawings. There is an entire infrastructure that probably will never make it into the world, because it's his idea. He's proprietary about it he wants to license it to some big company. If that happened, it would still have to be turned into code. And then a bunch of people would probably have to be like bathing and nutrient solution with a jack in the back of their heads to understand how to use this thing. But Mark what I don't think you know is that I invited a bunch of geeks to listen to Sandy for an afternoon long ago. And it was Dick Gabriel who is a genius and Dick stayed afterward and said show me garbage collection in this model you have. And it turns out that Sandy had sort of taken the most basic model garbage collection, plus a pretty sophisticated version that that Dick could identify. And he said, so what you've got is a combination of these two things and I can see it in in the damn drawings. Right. And so so so he built stuff but but that those ideas are trapped. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure out how to liberate ideas so that we can all use them. And so that the inventors still get credit for them and can make a living for them from them without having them be imprisoned, which is complicated as hell apparently. Okay, and the point here is like what you're what you said right now what the essence of that is. Is it like trying to explain what you're trying to do like what I'm trying to say how can I get how can we get these ideas in the world as openly as is humanly possible. Instrument the idea that they are findable and applicable and usable and then get people rewarded for having been part of making those ideas happen in the world. I think I figured big parts of this out. But that's what I really focused on like when I started the brain using the brain. I started doing my map of all the things that I knew all the methods all the knowledge trying to figure out how to organize it and then I was like, Yeah, but the brain doesn't do it really well. Well, I keep on using the software or what I figure out how to do it better. And maybe blender people tried it. But that's what my research or big part of my research also has been about to really what's the simplest way to have the most complex amount of data gathered in a place so you can still easily find what you're looking for. And I think I figured it out. I need to run it with somebody. I might do it with Pete somewhere during the week. So yeah but that's a weird statement to make because then I'm saying yeah I did the best one but I am. I think I figured it out so difficult. Can you give a pricey. Again. Yeah, you're muted again. Can you give a can you give a pricey a pricey a summary of synopsis. Yeah, it's kind of I. So what I tried to do is I tried to figure out okay how can this fit in a mobile interface. And in a mobile interface if you do an outline or the brain or whatever. It has different layers that jump in. Normally, it's like the staircase model unfolding hierarchy of an outliner. Then I tried to look okay there might be other ways to do it so you can still keep a straight list. And then, and then have the hierarchy indicated by another and there is ways to do it but then I also figured out yeah actually how can you easily combine information so it still keeps coherent and down into levels and I'm kind of doing use cases now so one use cases okay Afghanistan. What are the one thing is if somebody is searching an NGO is searching for maybe I can show it but so I have to bounce off because I must change calls at the top of the hour which is unusual but I have another call for top of the And so I don't know that we have time right now. No, I don't this way. I love. I feel. I feel some sense of frustration in the sense of maybe we've several of us feel like we've sort of been here before and what we do at this moment. I'd love to formulate something that's satisfying toward the end of this call. And figure things out. And I have to have to mute for a second but I'm still here but if anyone wants to sort of pick up and and like frame where we are in a way that takes us someplace I'd love that. I might be able to try. First to comment about Sandy Klausner. Yes, I met him 20 years ago and he's brilliant and he had the notion of visual programming. Yep, which was fantastic. You know, it was not as simple as simple text and simple HTML I posted a short video by Froda, Froda, Hagelin who's been working on the future of text for many years and has created a stable group with two meetings zoom meetings every week on Monday and Friday. Which I have not participated in. But he is moving forward and I've known him for 20 years as well. The ability to have something simple and clear and useful in trade and turn it into software is incredibly demanding and difficult. What Jerry talks about. You just muted yourself back to that mark. What Jerry talked about about finding ways to explain things. I translate into the simple language. I need about 1000 hours of talking to be able to do about 2000 hours of programming, or, you know, do some design and have some others help with some of that. Some of those hours of programming and these, you know, listening to these questions is valuable for me, but certainly not the be all end all. You know, I have different ideas and have been pursuing them for for decades. I don't know enough about what Michael has done with factor. I've, you know, followed Jerry's stuff and basically want to take, you know, the data and put it into my format so I can play with this data. Unfortunately, I am locked in DOS, which I have never found a way to. Why are you locked in DOS that do not comprehend why you haven't migrated your tool elsewhere. It's just code, right. It's I wrote it. It's this code. I've done three or four separate attempts and you know my in some way I don't have an excuse in other ways. It's not beautiful enough. But it's mainly the the, I have something that works for me in my daily experience. I've been translated into the web, and it's just too much work. And, you know, being able to basically attract help. And, you know, keep up with that and keep up with making a living paying the bills. It's, it's been too difficult. I've tried. I've tried three different startups. And most of the time I was the only technical person and everybody else is the cheerleader. Trying to find the right combo. Yeah. But part of the goal of having the project structure is to actually if you could frame up some pieces of this that were mosaics in the big picture, we would find a way to fund them somehow. I don't know if it's finished, but. Yeah, if you apply for an art grant. You kind of describe what you're going to do, but the end result going to be very different. Right. Same for what kind of project to fund it's more about agreement amongst the group members. Sort of, but, but here in the spirit of OGM and the spirit of this project layer, I think we want them pretty tightly defined so that the different people counting on that tile being created can actually implement it and put it to work in their separate different infrastructure toward the common sort of toward the big fungus. Long live the big fungus. Sorry, Mark, I interrupted you. And we've only got a couple minutes left in the car. So certainly, you know, my notion of a sustainable organization is a mind cooperative. Basically a cooperative of developers and thinkers that basically create a public membership cooperative here in California or possibly New York. We have something called REI, which is a recreational equipment cooperative, which basically, you know, gives dividends back to their members. We have, you know, different mind models that get licensed that dividend goes back to the members. We have a big REI store that is one block away which I consider to be like within the danger zone is just way too convenient. Where are you at? In the Pearl in Portland. Oh really. I was in the Pearl District. Two weeks ago I luxury condo. What? Right across from. I'd have to, I think it was like a, I don't remember the name of the street but I can look it up. Oh my god. Okay, you should have said hi. I mean, if only you'd known. Yes, had I known. If only I'd known you were here. That would have been cool. Went to get great bagels in East Portland. Certainly enjoyed. I don't know, there's a, there's a corner where there's a Wells Fargo and a Starbucks. That describes half of the country. Actually, the Western part of the country, I guess, because Wells Fargo. Michael, do you want to try to put a bow on this conversation or a pin in it? I doubt I can put a bow on it. Yeah, yeah, that's why when I felt like I'm thin. Yeah. Mark, we're dancing around Mark with what you just said, you know, the cooperative structure. That allows people to, you know, share in the benefits. This is, this is a business issue that like comes up in other fields, you know, in very tangible fields. There's a company called. Obron that I've been talking to. That is a, essentially a conglomerate of co-ops. Where the workers. Instead of owning shares only in their, you know, individual businesses, all own shares in the greater company, which then owns the individual companies that the workers work for. Hence, you know, if one, if one entity is more profitable than, it can prop up something that's going through a hard time. You know, it's a diversification strategy. And like, there's something like that. That I think might be the ticket to letting, you know, all the projects that we're working on. Be cooperatively shared owned and, you know, we can see how things work out. And I think that we have benefit to, to sharing our IP. But it's a tall order, just the structural and legal, you know, involved. So I've got to bounce. I'm afraid I can leave this room open. If you guys want to keep talking. I just want to share. So Graham Boyd, I've had a couple of conversations with him. Several OGMers are busy sort of learning how to do fair shares comments. And so that is, that works the way you said, what you just described, Michael. I have in my, in my brain, an important nexus, which is what are our next stacks? What is the next societal stack? And what is the next organizational stack? And I think that the world is, is right now trying to figure out what the new platform is for making a living, sharing ideas, et cetera, et cetera. And it could be a Dow, it could be a, I don't know what it is, right? And I have fair shares, but I think that there's a, I think that there's a, I think that there's a, I think that there's a, a thought that I should connect to your more exotic forms of organization, right? And there's all kinds of interesting things going on. We are in this moment of frothy sociocracy, holocracy, hierarchy, worker self-management, humanocracy, chaotic commons, which sort of came and went, but, but there's like lots of these things, right? But the process that we're in can be the subject of our shared work as well. And so, I want to turn the two next stacks. I want to, I want to turn that quest into a piece of how we use our tools and our conversations to go feed the big fungus. And if the fungus starts with, hey, we're not sure what the answer is here, but here are the important questions we're trying to answer. Jump on in, help us out. We can then help with other people, find our way into this next platform. So this seems to me to be like a self-referential, recursive, mutually, kind of project, but I like that about it, right? I think that that's, that's actually pretty vital. And if we do that right, we can kind of start from here and keep going. If that makes sense. I've got my must buggy. I'm being impolite to somebody who doesn't know me yet. So that's not good. Shall I leave this room open? Cause I'm not, my next call is not in this room. I'm happy to leave it so you guys can talk. I would say yes. Let me pass. Let me pass the meeting to you, Eric. Okay. Thanks. So, um, yeah. I was just thinking, maybe it's better if somebody new steps in, and they will call it, you decide who's going to be the onboarder. And I would start half an hour before, so I can get on boarded and what's going to happen after, because a lot of this call might have been onboarding, which for me was really valuable, but for you might have been the frustration of, okay, a repetition. But I'm, well, Michael missed the onboarding a bit. And this is my first gender in the comments call. So no, no, no problem. And, and, you know, honestly, as I was saying a little cynically when I came in. It's, I feel like every one of these discussions is kind of the same anyway. And, you know, there are pearls of wisdom that, you know, drop down then. But really, I mean, I came in, you know, on a lengthy, you know, kind of rehashing of some of the same stuff we always talked about. And I, you know, I'm like positive and optimistic and frustrated. And that's the same. Almost sounds like, you know, Yeah, I know, I know. Well, I could say me too, but I'm from a different place and different position and different background, but okay. Um, so. Yeah, trying to figure things out. Damn. So the, the idea that I had just before was kind of, what if we look at it more like an insurance? I remember how health insurance started in Belgium. That's when people would put money in the box and that money could often be used for healing. But in the beginning it was just a lot of money brought together and it's used for each other's healing. And so, you know, maybe it makes also sense to approach it that way. There's more questions to it though. Yeah, that will always be the case in this complex matter. But I'm kind of like a good start out as kind of an insurance company where we can find funding to build our projects. Once we get. For a lot of profit in. I mean, some of the profit can get redistributed and some people might step in. Oh, I am a full member of the comments. I want to give all what I get through the comments. That's my approach. I would love to do it that way. In a way, but then. It's really difficult to figure out how to divide money. And I was just thinking in the beginning of the call. If you want to have. If you want to have a fight with your best friend. They're not going to ask you to lend them money. So that's, that's a very difficult tension feel that would say to be in. As you kind of need almost like contracts for money. Because otherwise. Yeah, I was open. I was going to share with you, but I'll keep it for myself now because my project is successful. For instance, those kind of things do happen. Yeah. And trust is important. I don't know if trust comes from, from good vibes or from clear contracts. Yeah. So good vibes. I don't trust you Eric. Yeah. That is perfectly normal perfectly fine. It's not an insult. It's I don't have repeated interactions where we have built up a basis for you to earn my trust. And that's perfectly fine. I'm not going to give that trust to a NFT. I'm not going to give that trust to a Dow. I'm not going to give that trust to anything but normal, simple, long experience of working together. That is my position as, you know, a individual human being who's lived for 58 years on the planet. I don't trust Michael. That's perfectly fine. You know, it's, it's, um, you know, I can trust Michael not to, um, You know, come over and burn my house. I trust you Michael. That certainly helps. Um, but, um, Certainly. Um, It's a big ground to play in. And I hear the issue of trust. Um, in many different formats. Not exactly sure. You know how to play with it completely. Um, But certainly Eric and, you know, I've shown Michael a bit of what I do. Um, you haven't seen that. Um, you know, I've been doing this since 1984. I've got something like 2 million different nodes with 15, close to 15 million associations between them. It's, it's, is it the internet or something else? It's something else. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I thought. Internet. Internet archive is the day job. Yeah, I know. And you said it before Nicole. So I want to remember, but I wanted to clarify. Okay. Yeah. Um, but certainly, um, The internet archive is going through, um, it's 25 year anniversary. And the big question is, what are we going to do for the next 25 years? And, um, There's a number of different avenues that I'm investigating. Certainly having shared. Experience of these, um, YouTube videos. You know, basically talking about a public benefit institution that's trusted. And that is the internet archive for the moment. People trust the internet archive. Um, And I think we have earned trust by our actions. And certainly it's more people than me and way before I joined. Um, But basically there's a paradox that is at the heart of. Intelligence for me where everybody. As a human. Is the same. We all have these universal aspects of how we start from two. Cells that. Can't be seen by, well, that are microscopic can't be seen by the eye. And we become. Old. So hopefully we become older. And at the same time, we're all different. Completely different. I'm completely different from you, Eric. And you're completely different from each other and from me. And, and there's that paradox of the same. And it's essentially the same and essentially the different. At the same time. And. We all need food. We all need. We all need food. We all need care and security. And we all also need our, our own identities as separate people. To me, this is. A paradox that I try to bring into the frame of knowing knowledge, intelligence. Mind. There's many other things I'm investigating. And I'm going to talk a little bit more about that. I'm going to talk about the injury handbook. And when we talk about. The violation of a moral. Value trust or, you know, not paying back. Alone. There's two sides of it. The injuries that we've done to others because we're not perfect. And the injuries that others have done to us. So I'm going to talk a little bit more about that. And I'm going to talk a little bit more about that. And I'm going to talk a little bit more about that. Oh, boy, am I focused on healing? This is a, this is something that spoke to me. As a place where I'm stuck, which is in the area of moral injury. You know, basically. What did I write down yesterday or the day before. When I'm, when am I going to stop punishing myself. For having fallen in love with the wrong woman. Or in my case, women. I was a huge. Constellation of issues that go above and beyond. What my primary research is, which is how does meaning. Begin, how does meaning grow. And certainly for me, I have an exceedingly simple model. Well, you just create a list, you know, you have a sign at the top, you have all these other signs that get associated to it. And eventually builds a network. It's much deeper than that. But the thing I saw this morning was Froda Hedglund saying. About his. Simple addition to PDF files, adding metadata, computer readable and human readable metadata at the back. You know, my life's work. It sounds so. Miniscule and petty, but you know, we've got to make these tiny little. Additive steps that other people can build on. I hope, you know, that. Helps in some way. Yeah. I'm not very clear on what you wanted to say, although I get a sense of it, like I. Just a moment. I would love to rephrase what you said to, in order for me to know that I understood you. Please do so. So. You're saying on one end there's life. It happens in many ways. Many layers. But then there's something that you're focusing on. And you're trying to. It seems like what you're saying is more in between the lines and what you're literally said, like it's something about. I don't know how to relate with this and it's, I'm struggling with it. I've been doing this for a very long time. I'm trying to focus. What is my contribution. And it's like, is it still making sense? Yes, it's making a lot of sense, but I don't know where I'm going necessarily either. Practically, but then I wonder what your real needs are with this. Like in this topic, like, do you also want to build this comments? Is this something you think will work? Or is it something like, oh, no, I've been in the same calls before. It's will probably not work. What I'm trying to say is there's possibly. Three areas that I was trying to point out. The first is. The nature. My, my, my core interest is as a scientist. And as an artist. To basically note that all cognition has a feeling component. And that meaning or symbolic. Communication. Is an emergent property of life. You don't get meaning without life. And so that's a scientific kind of. Focus that I use my tool for. Now, do I want to take the energy. I'm doing here. And, you know, trying to connect with different people. To basically say, aha, let's take this research and turn it into. A toy or a game or a tool where people basically. Actually have a context. Or lifelong reflective thinking that they build their own. Individual repository as an external mind. As a side effect might be able to share. That external mind with others. In a way that's eventually useful for other people. And for say the basis of data driven. Artificial intelligence or, you know, some kind of. Global mind idea. That works. The third thing is. To value human. Feeling and human process over technology. Trust is not a DAO trust is not an unbreakable. You know. Crypto algorithm trust comes from human interaction. I think those are the main points, which went as explicit, but. You know, I think, I think while I talk. So I try to. To engage what's going on up here. Apologize if it's somewhat unclear. It's okay. Ask a question just around trust. And, you know, the. You know, perfectly reasonable point that, you know, we don't fully trust each other or, you know, trust each other at all. You know, I mean, we trust each other for certain things. That the structures that allow trust among strangers. Which I think you, Mark, were sort of. You know, I don't buy this. I don't buy. I don't buy this. I don't buy this. I don't buy this. I don't buy this. So. Crypto. Dow, you know. Smart contracts. Blah blah blah. That's not. I guess saying sort of that's not trust. When we think about what we do trust. Outside of the repetitive. Interactions with. You know, business partners and whatever. Local merchants. We trust. Fiat currency. We trust, you know. Without, without previous interaction, we trust, like if we go to a new place and we look at. You know, where this train or this bus goes or, you know, where this train is going to go. Yeah. Of streets or that numbers come in some certain order. You know, there's just sort of. Common. Commonality to certain things that we're, you know, shocked when. They don't. But they prove themselves to be untrustworthy in an instance. Like, you know, wait, this, you know. I mean, in the last. Platform said it was going to go that. That shocking. And there are. I mean, I guess, I guess partly what I want to want to ask is. Would you not. Mark say that. That there are means to trust without those repetitive space or are there ways that exists in information space already, you know, that either have been codified or that we could codify further. I mean, you know, I keep coming back to the recognized expertise, the trust in recognized expertise that like lets somebody move like, you know, I trust my friend, my friend trusts this person who recommended another person who knows about something who recommended this restaurant or, you know, I trust this publication or I trust, you know, there's all kinds of inferred trust that lets you know how not to be paralyzed in moving forward. And can we recognize some of those structures and replicate them better in digital space so that they're more of a currency the way that the way that, you know, currencies we trust, like time and money and, you know, we just trust to exist. We don't necessarily trust the people who are offering them like, I'll give you my time or I'll give you my money. Will you really? And, you know, is it, I mean, like we trust like the value of people's time to them, but we don't know how valuable that time is. Money is nice for us and sort of a fallback because we trust the relative value of it. You know, it's contextualized by exchange rates and basic prices of things and I know that, like, if I pay you X for X, X for Y, you know, for example. Can it come in just for a moment? Because I want to make the question clear enough. Are you, are you asking for clarifying, like, how do we do this? Is that the question? How do we create this kind of webs of trust or something? Is that what you ask? How do we do it? Or is it another question? Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I guess my question is kind of presupposing that we do actually do it. Because we do, I mean, it seems to me that we do when it comes to, you know, money and the sort of inferred expertise and the, you know, the kind of reputation structures that we informally function on. How do we reflect that in digital spaces so that we can, and how do we interoperate that in digital spaces so that... Is it about fair or proper distribution of the money? Like, where does it actually go? Is that the question then in the end? Or not just money, resources, recognition, positions, all of that, I guess. Yeah, I mean, there are various resources to be traded. But, you know, how to take the resources and the means that we have to transact. I mean, it's like so easy for, you know, us to walk into a stranger's coffee shop and get a trustworthy cup of coffee for a certain amount of money that we can contextualize in our greater world. How do we, we do do that with knowledge. How do we do that with knowledge and how do we codify that transaction so that in a fair way we can all exchange knowledge and IP and, you know, all these intangibles that we're stuck on. Yeah, good question. Thanks. And, yeah, Eric. Those are incredibly great questions, Michael. And Eric, thanks for looking for clarification. Boy, when I'm driving my car, I trust people not to swerve into my path. I trust people to stop at stop lights. If I see a drunk driver, I was driving again in Oregon, and basically it says, you know, report drunk drivers, you know, by 911, there's like a sign every 10 miles, they must have a big problem with drunk drivers up there. But the state license drivers, and, you know, basically says that this driving is not a right, it is a privilege that has to be earned. When I go to, and I'm going to go to, you know, get some morning coffee or tea, really, chai. I have developed trust in the social obligation that they're not going to, you know, use stagnant water that they're not going to take my money in this, you know, say, get out of here, we're not going to give you anything. I'm very interested in, at the moment in, say, the nature, the difference in the nature of belief in knowledge, which I can map to the difference in the nature of, say, trust and obligation. You know, trust is a belief, it's a, it's a gift that I give when I have the belief that an exchange is going to happen the way I predict. Obligation is, ah, I'm pretty damn sure that if, you know, somebody goes into Starbucks and rips them off that, that there's going to be some consequences enforced by you know, the police or, or basically just saying, hey, you know, we've seen you in here before and you've, you ripped us off, get out. It's, you know, these are, I'm not really getting to what Michael's deeper question was, was kind of how do we take something like currency where, and I had read it on the currency and I had forgotten how that went. This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private. And basically, you know, there's this universal kind of, the language is not on the bill that I can see, but the full faith and trust of the United States government is backing the currency. You know, what is backing the internet archives promise that, you know, we're not going to track your IP address and link you to, you know, whatever books that you are, are looking at and, you know, sell that data to some, you know, company who wants to track you. These are slightly different questions, but, but certainly Michael and Eric and, you know, the, the community of DAOs and, you know, how we basically move our lives from face to face interactions that we're very familiar with to what we're doing right now. We're talking, you know, we're each like 3000 miles apart. How do we, you know, make a, what is it, the term I'm searching for is a technical term in the information science, a compression. How do we take the sense from listening to each other or by, you know, creating, I was going to bring up a contract. If you, Michael would hire me as a software developer at so many dollars an hour to do X on your website to add a feature. If I don't add the feature, you don't pay me. If you pay me ahead of time, you complain that, hey, I fronted you this money and you flaked. I'm not going to give you any more money until you actually, you know, create this feature. You know, we start by, by these incremental tests of each other's skill or well, you know, working well together and then we can escalate into, hey, you did this, you know, feature great. I'm going to give you the section of the website and we're going to basically say, you know, here are the milestones and we expect each other to to each meet the milestones of payment and benefit and, but again, your question about compressing that into something that we don't have to discuss in a, we don't have to build up that, that history of small interactions, but we can kind of say, aha, we have this external way of skipping all that, of compressing that into some kind of fiat that, you know, Eric has recommended Michael, Eric has recommended Mark, and we both trust Eric. So, you know, and Eric has this cryptologically assured measure of trustworthiness towards his assurance, and we can just skip all this different. I don't, I don't buy it very much. I don't, I don't. Can I, can I, can I try to get to the essence of the pain there? You can't validate money in a trustworthy way. Like, for instance, what if there's no surefire way to do this, there's no proper way to do this, I guess. But, um, suppose that there's a lot of overlap in what you collected in your brain and what Jerry collected in his brain, like then, okay, okay, we brought overlap here. And Jerry brings his, his knowledge in first, and then after you come in, oh, but you're the second, so you don't get money for this because this knowledge was already there, for instance, but that even to start how to validate knowledge, how to validate it in money, and what's it worth, is your collection of knowledge worth more than the one of Jerry's? Jerry, more worth, and how do we actually agree on that? Is that kind of the pain where we're at, or? You're so, it's an interesting model that you bring up, and I'm going to but trust is more like, it's trust and getting, getting a compensation for something or like getting something in return, you want your money, you want your needs fulfilled. So those are two different issues, in my opinion. And I wonder which of the two issues we're talking about. And we're trying to build an organization. So I'd like to make it complete and okay, how does it work within an organization? Interesting questions. But are we talking about the same here? Am I getting you a bit? No. I don't think we're talking about the same thing. Okay. And I was hoping to get off the call at my time, about five minutes ago, basically to actually get my first caffeine of the day. And just among guys, even though we're being recorded, you know, the first pee early in the morning here, I just got out of bed. It's kind of time to go. But these are all great questions to come back and revisit. The, you know, I go to these paradoxes because I think in the resolution of these realities, you know, knowledge can be recorded, but to have it be known, it has to go through an individual human brain. It makes no difference that I've written down two million things that Jerry has written down 700,000 things. If no one has access to them, if no one actually revivifies those symbolic recordings into actual brain experience, it feels like to say the essence of the pain, the lack of interoperability, the process that we're in. If nobody listens to this recording, you know, it is great that we have all this information, but at the same time, that information has to be processed through a single human brain to be active in the world. And it's that social individual paradox that we're trying to look at in different ways. Yes, we all have our own minds. We all have this huge amount of knowledge. And I am limited by my time, by my articulateness to say, Eric, know everything that you know. I can't because all of your experiences have come in real time. You can press them into language, but I can't live the real time experience that you've had because that's the same amount of time that I have. Now, I'm going really weird and wild from your question about organizations, but this is at the essence of how I try to investigate that. Okay, I listen, and for me, there's two levels. I want to organize. I want to move forward. So I want to really figure what's the simplest way to do this? How do we really get money? And I also really listen to what you say and try to take it in and really see all the layers and stuff like that. I think I need a bit more processing to give a clearer answer. I've looked a lot on, yeah, there's a few simple answers, but you wanted to get off. So yeah, I love your question, how do we get money? Boy, that's a tough one. I would just mention, or how do we not need to get money? Exactly. Take care, Michael. It's great to see you, Eric. I'd love to talk with you again. Let's see. I think the Jerry chicken is tomorrow. I'll try to get on the Monday call about the, what is it, Free Jerry's Brain and the Tuesday call, which is Building OGM. That's it, Building OGM. All righty. Take the best of care. Have a great day. Eric, I can stick around a little bit. Okay, nice. Bye, Mark. See you later. I would like to be able to express a few things. Is there anything pressing for you? Well, the thing that struck me and what you and Mark were saying recently, and I mean, you talking about it from an organizational point of view, and I felt like Mark was sort of rebuffing in a way to say that, you know, I've had my experience and you've had your experience and you can't have my experience. So, you know, there's no hope. I mean, he wasn't being that negative, but I do feel like with the exhaust, I know you've got something you want to say. I'll just get this up real quick. The exhaust, for lack of a better term, the links that Jerry has made in his brain, the things that Mark has created that you were questioning. So, okay, what's the overlap of those? The value of the overlap of those is definitely something. And the value of, you know, all the links and bits of knowledge, it gets to the second brain concept, you know, the second brain movement. Are you familiar with that? No, I'm not. I'm imagining what it means, but I'm not sure if that's corresponding to what it actually is. I would say that it's like you can build a shareable brain like Jerry's built. Is that kind of what it's about? Yeah. I mean, there's this guy named Tiago Forte. And I'm sure he's not the only person, but the sort of best known advocate. And it's basically the idea that we have the advantage now that all the stuff we know can be collected in different off-board ways that allegedly it saves you time to collect and stuff and organize it in some way and some people doing it in notion or, you know, you know, the brain or factor or Mark's own proprietary thing or your own proprietary thing. And you want that stuff just for you. It doesn't have to do with sharing. But if you imagine that there are all these second brains out there, then you think about like, OK, well, if we could have the social network of those second brains that was nothing more than, you know, like this second mind map of this node here that is this article on medium is in a hundred second brains by itself that may not be significant. But what you also want to map is the reputation for lack of a better term of each of these the owners of these second brains in terms of a certain area of expertise so that you'll say like this medium article has a lot of reputational energy around sustainable models. And this one over here doesn't, even though it's on the same subject. So it lets the exhaust that we've all produced by like storing the stuff. You get what I mean by exhaust. I get it. But it's, yeah. So, yeah. But that's exactly what I do. So I want to first hear you. So or maybe I have to just say it like I really want to hear you when you speak. And I have all sorts of things to express. And I've got my own like mind running around this. So it would be really nice for me to be able to express, but that's important to really be able to listen. So if you've got things in your mind that make it difficult for you to listen, then I'd rather have you express first. So that's that's my question as well. So as long as you've got something to express before you can listen, then I'm really willing to listen. And otherwise I would like to express a few things. Yeah, yeah. So this has been my research exactly this, like how to do this. And I tried to clarify it, but I really didn't have enough time. But first, and I tried to kind of clarify it by saying I first started building my own brain, but then I saw it doesn't have any meaning if we can't exchange it. So I actually broke down building my own brain, because I thought it doesn't have any meaning if we don't socialize it, if we don't bring it across around. And like in knowledge management, for instance, there's these two principles stock and flow and stock is the information that if I if I send you an email, you'll have a list of steps and you can do whatever is in the email and you'll exactly be able to reproduce what's there flow is more like information that is that you learn by doing and you can transform it only in a live setting maybe even because then people can see you doing stuff. And there's this example of a map maker, that if there was this really, there was a guy that wanted to make a software model for a map maker. And he he was studying with this map maker for two years to try this to make the software model. And then in the end, he decided, hmm, I can't make the the model or I can't make a software model. But he became the second best map maker. That's kind of, I think maybe explaining the point of what's your experience versus my experience, you can't really, part of that is some of it is really difficult to transmit. And some things you can teach others, others maybe you can't teach. And then there is a whole, but I studied on how to do these kind of trust systems, how to make it work. I don't know how to bring my point across. Just a moment, I need a bit more time so I can get it clear enough. I want to build a network where this is possible, where the brain can be a shared brain, and where it doesn't matter which format something comes in. What I do, one of the things I do is just embedding, like literally a wipe embed. There's a note in the system that I have and I embed somebody else's information in there. And maybe I can select, if it's text, I can select the text and you can start commenting on the text, but you can always go back to the source. In that case, if there's a link in the brain of Jerry, it refers to that link, but it can also show the information directly because it's an embed of Jerry's brain. For instance, that's a simple solution to that problem. So that for me is solved and I'm trying to figure out, so I'm still processing all the things that have been said during the call, but where do I get now? For me, massive week is not enough because it doesn't allow, like in the brain, you've got categories and those categories are different types of information and it doesn't really mean anything yet. But for me, categorization is really important because then you can actually structure information and find again what you're looking for. Any kind of information, if it's well tagged, then it's, okay, this is clearly an article. Okay, if it's about the quality, okay, I have assessment tags. Assessment tags are things like this has got logical fallacies. Okay, what kind of fallacies is there? Okay, it's this kind of fallacy. Okay, so you add assessment tag to this piece of information and that's clear. Okay, it's got this logical fallacy maybe. And you've got all these kind of things, not metadata, but meta, like assessment of information. And that can be that you can just gradually be added. So if any of those assessment tags, if they can grow then whatever kind of value that information has, okay, this is maybe even intangible value, it's just a beautifully painted picture, then that's the assessment tag. So I mean, I'm saying there's no limits to what you can assess. And there's ways to assess and there's ways to organize and structure that assessment of information. So then it can even stay in the brain, because I'm embedding it in the system that's similar to the brain, but it's just pointing outwards to these other sources of information. If it's got a link somewhere, then you can find it. So that's for me that problem is solved as well. So then I'm wondering, did I just answer the issues or am I not getting something of the issues? I don't know if my words work clear enough because the images in my mind are really clear, but like if I show you my research, then you will see, oh yeah, that will be possible to hold all these different sources and to structure it in a way that it makes sense to people and you can easily find what you're looking for and you can see, okay, to this topic in this region, this specific person has written this article and this person comments on that article. Those are all things that I can figure out, but in a really, in a pretty simple way. So that's, if we got that covered, then probably that's gonna be what we can build. And it's based on all these other tools. But so, but then there's a weird thing. I don't mind sharing, I don't know, if I didn't understand it, then I'm happy to listen and hear what others have to say is something that I missed out. But it seems that I got it covered. For me, it's a weird thing to say because that sounds arrogant, but that's my current understanding and honesty about where I'm at. Then, okay, what needs to be figured out? I would like to get money. Simple. I think your platform makes sense for different reasons than Vincent Arina's platform makes sense. Mark Granz, I don't really know what he did and what he created and what's the beauty of it. He says it would be really difficult to explain it. He sees all kinds of problems of, and for me, that's a part of translation. I would probably have to spend maybe an hour or two or three or four or five until I understand, okay, what is basically what he created? And where does it have value? Where can you, where, which kind of people will use it? So then I'm thinking, okay, we need use cases in order to find the funding that we need. And then how we distribute the money, well, that's an important thing to clarify together and how do we prioritize those things. For me, it's really about solving the world's biggest problems. What is the biggest chance to solve our world's biggest problems? That's my aim. But at the same time, dealing with also knowledge management and how, how, like, even the most complicated to communicate information can be communicated. And I come, like, I'm a mime. Mime is theater without words. How do I communicate what mime is worth? Like, in words, that's really difficult, because it's exactly not words. So that's also how I started my research. And I call it deeper quality. And for me, there's two focuses. One is effective social change and the other is deeper quality. But I want to start from effective social change, because that's where the money is. That's where people see the value. But I also want to do these other things. But here's where the money will be effective social change. And then the information and the knowledge. That's, that's what generates by the money. That's the, that's like the, the meaning that we create, because this gets us money. I don't know if that's making sense. And then if you make decisions, which projects should be funded? I would, I would personally prefer if it's the ones that create the biggest change in the smallest amount of time. While keeping integrity as well. Like it's not, I don't want to go into like, yeah, let's build a new Facebook, make it a business model that breaks down. That's not what we're about, of course. But I mean, for me, integrity is one of the most important things. And I think that's possible. It just doesn't need a bit of pragmatic thinking. And let's not philosophize. This is not a moment to philosophize. We are about philosophy. This is a, okay, this is a good moment to bring in philosophy. This is a good moment to move forward and to really make pragmatic steps. So I'm not sure if my, how much of my words came across. Maybe you could rephrase what I said, but I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. I don't know if I could, but, but I mean, I hear questions that like I share, I hear from you a focus on on how we make the money follow the, or compensate for the value of the knowledge and the quality of, you didn't say this, but I was, I was thinking based on what you're saying that you like talking about your art and talking about art. And the kind of qualitative, less normally transactional, you know, how we reward that and find the money for that for people to live. It's easier in the sort of the kind of urgent world changing sphere to say, look, this obviously has value, or we're going to die as opposed to the more qualitative, you know, this is important and valuable. And please follow. I mean, there's, there's other possibilities. I'll give you one example. If, if you have a deal with Femio that you get an affiliate link, then affiliate link gets you a percentage. If somebody buys a certain video, then if you've got a good system to categorize videos on certain topics, and it does it better than Femio. And in the beginning, okay, you point people to things they actually want to watch on Femio, that they might have to pay for, and then you get a certain amount of money back. That's just an example of, that's actually, that's not knowledge, right? But it's still a very valuable piece of, of, of art or information or, and you just get a percentage because you're, you did point to that. And I don't know how much feasible it still is because those kind of business models tend to change what you can get money for now, maybe in five years you can't anymore, and what you could get money for in the past. It doesn't work anymore, more because it changed. So that's something to figure out. I would say there is probably different business models, and I've also created business models that will work probably. If I show you, then you understand. But then there's a big question on, there's a, there's a more difficult, like intangible information that does have value, like, there's always going to be something you can say about the value of something, and you might need a lot of time to be able to find it. But that's what, that's what marketing is about. I used to say marketing is evil. That's what I literally said to a marketing friend of mine. But then I understood, no, it's just, if you use it for the right thing marketing, it actually becomes something beautiful. And we also need marketing for what we're doing. We need marketing for the knowledge databases that we built. I was an artist, and I found it like selling my soul, trying to write a document, and then where I could find funds. But I think it's feasible for what we do. I actually gradually found out, no, there's actually ways to clearly describe what you're doing with the value of it is, and then to find money for it. But I would say social change, yes. If people can see that it has a theory of change, then you can get impact investments. If people are seeing that my tool is being used to effectively deal with the social, with the situation in Afghanistan, because I'm creating a database of all the monitoring platforms of all the channels that you can use of people that you can reach in Afghanistan, of all the groups that are working there, all the NGOs and the projects that they're doing. If you can get a big picture view of all what's happening in a certain region, in a certain conflict, then you're creating real change, because you're making it much more effective. Because now, if you first talk to this guy to figure out, okay, there's a group there, and then talk again to this guy, and he's saying, okay, yeah, there is this contact here, and you have to do all these steps to find one person in that space there in Afghanistan dealing on that issue before you get there. If you just shorten that path, you've created added value. And then you can use the same system for all these knowledge processors that create beauty, or that I don't know what, that have philosophical value. For me, there's, I think I found ways to do it that are not that difficult to program, but don't take that much effort. And some of them can even be used by simple plugins that are used in WordPress, for instance, or the start off. So there is starts. Yeah. I'm sorry. So I took a little time to talk about, sorry, it's more like I want, so what now is maybe the question, or maybe you want to react first. It's always the question. Well, I do have to jump to another meeting, but I love to continue the conversation. And maybe we can talk some more one-on-one at some point, and see how we can figure out how to inter-operate and the consequences of these problems of how we further each other's efforts and everybody's efforts without feeling like we're, I mean, when you were bringing up what goes on, what happened in the conversation with you and Vincent, I'm sensitive to that. I don't want to have any interaction that leads you feeling like you're parting with more than you're getting. Yeah. And I think what I also said is enough people in this group know I will trust there might be some protection of the group, and I hope that we can build that. Can we hold each other accountable, or could we even write a contract where we say, okay, the ideas that we share in the comments, they're part of everyone, but we're respecting each other's ideas, and we're not just running away with each other's ideas. And then if we write that in a clear contract, then I think we can build trust. And in the contract is also we hold each other accountable for not stealing each other ideas, or if we know something happening, he's building a tool, that looks really a lot like what he was building. And I know they had a conversation about it, something like that. I would say makes sense. I don't think that's the biggest pain in people either, but yeah. Well, I think there's something to be learned. It was interesting. Or you leave it all undisturbed. I took something for what you were saying about art that was interesting to think about is, I come from an art background. I was a designer first, but I was an artist before that, and a lot of my friends are artists, my wife's a choreographer. There are all these people who are doing, making these works that they feel compelled to make, and they're not doing it on a transactional basis. They're forced in society to transact and to figure out, oh, well, if I can get this presenter to show my work and either sell it to fine artists or charge admission if they're performing artists and all those things that have to happen, but they're not, they didn't come on this as like, hmm, here's my way to make a living. Let me see what business model I can do and they're doing it. And one of the things that happens in that context is there's an unwritten rule around the derivative quality of somebody's work and the recognition they receive if they're doing something that's just like somebody else as opposed to like breaking through and being original and therefore building more of a reputation, being able to charge more ultimately, but it comes from showing the work independent of receiving compensation. I mean, it's particularly true for fine artists. Like a fine artist has a show where nothing sells, perhaps, but they've put their work out there and said, this is my work. My name goes on this, and other people have said, you know, they've open sourced it in a way, and other people could copy it, and at the same time, other people could say, oh, well, that's just derivative of this other fine artist. I'm not impressed. And people could buy it and transact around it. I just put that out there as sort of something to think about. It's just an interesting metaphor for us around our knowledge and work. Okay. You said you wanted to jump calls. The last thing I want to say is I want to move forward. I want to be pragmatic, so I'm going to push those buttons, and I'm going to ask other people as well, like, do you want to be pragmatic as well? Do you want to be pragmatic about getting money? Yeah, we're not. Yeah, I mean, well, it's not a pressure that I put on you because it's, yeah. I mean, in terms of keeping a business operating and trying to figure out, you know, I'm not, you know, this is one of those things that you say with the understanding that, you know, trust, I mean, words don't necessarily engender trust, but just to put where I feel like I'm coming from. Like, I'm somebody who has a nominally for-profit company, but my interest is that this company exists and hopefully remunerate me to the point that I can focus on it and or, you know, like some of the time and money that I've already put into it, but I care more about it existing than me profiting, and I don't want to sell it to, I specifically don't want to sell it to, you know, Google or Facebook or, you know, any other entity that that conceivably would be the the most money. Yeah. And so, like, figuring out the best way or we are able to figuring out again, figuring out the best way to do that is something that I am like exploring and open to and want to be pragmatic about. And like, I've got, you know, I've got hundreds, thousands of users signed onto the platform who I don't want to let down by not letting the platform exist, you know, they and the freemium model that we have to support that through its gestation to, you know, it is a viable business model at scale. But in this transitional part where I don't want to take on VC funding, you know, how do we get from here to there. Okay, let's have a talk about this, Michael, because there's there's impact investment which doesn't include people buying stocks in your company, but they have other reasons to invest in you. Some of them is just money that you get because you're adding value to society. So let's talk about that later. Cool. See you next time. And what's the call on Tuesday. Okay, well, on Tuesday, also as a Mattermost channel, I guess, or no. Yeah, yeah, it does. It's called building OGM. That one's a little bit more, you know, again, specific, obviously. And they kind of bleed into each other. That's the Tuesday call. So let's talk about it. I'm curious to hear what your biggest needs are. And how to interface on that or something or how to connect to that. Yeah. Okay, see you later, Michael. Really good talking to you. And by the way, I wanted to say I almost said this in the last Thursday call, your new lighting situation is really cool. I love watching you in a sort of half lit like this. It's a bit of a merry. Good to talk to you.