 Welcome. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to think tech Hawaii. And we have the honor of having with us today. Dean and Professor Jelani Jefferson Exum, the new Dean at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law. And David Larson, professor at Mitchell Hamlin School of Law, and also the incoming section chair of the American bar association section of dispute resolution. And we have two, we have two ascendant participants today with that ascendancy comes substantial work and responsibility. As you folks enter into your new roles in these particularly stressful and distressed times. What are things are that are at the forefront of your mind and ladies first Jelani. Thank you and thank you for having me. I'm pleased to be here as always. There's there's a lot of course and for a for a Dean you're always thinking about student success and academic success issues. And the way I've been thinking about it at Detroit Mercy Law specifically is that we have a social justice mission. And so we're focused on really working to promote equity when it comes to you know rights and access and really just involvement in in political and legal life for our community and so I've just been thinking about ways to have more of a connection in the school to the community thinking really about what's happening in Detroit. So, sort of amplifying community voices around issues of policing and housing and environmental justice, and the ways that the school and the students can be supportive of those community efforts and in a way that allows students to learn and grow and really develop into what we like to to call ethical justice seeking attorneys that that's what's on my mind. Wow, that that's a full plate. How about you. You know, I think we all have a lot on our mind because conditions keep changing everything so volatile. You know as we're moving into our Delta variant fourth surge, which is very discouraging because this is something that I always thought we could have managed better. If we had more masks and done some of the things public health authorities that wanted us to do. I'm not sure we'd be where we are today. So one thing I'm thinking about is as incoming chair of the ABA. We're not going to be getting back together the way we thought we might be by this time that we're going to continue to do things virtually. And I want to make sure that we can support our dispute resolvers in their efforts to continue their good work. We're not going to be able to do it the way they used to though face to face. And in the last 18 months, I think we've made some great strides and becoming comfortable doing things virtually, but we can still improve. And there's not a lot of regulation or guidance out there yet about online behavior and online dispute resolution. So one thing that's on my mind is what kind of guidance can our section provide. And essentially one thing that we've been working on past few years is increasing diversity inclusion in terms of our neutral rosters and making certain that groups that historically maybe we're not included on dispute resolution rosters for arbitrators mediators are brought in and become neutrals. And we're going to continue with those efforts. And that's definitely a full plate also. So, do the changes in issues at the forefront over the last year and a half or so pandemic and others. The orientation or the direction or the priorities for either of you. I mean, I'm not going to say the priorities necessarily for me, you know, I've, I've always been social justice minded, this school, this is what the tradition of school has been as well so that's always been the focus but I will say it has changed the way we have to work. So thinking about coming off of an entirely virtual school year and figuring out ways to reintegrate students into our kind of in person community and thinking about safe ways to go out into the community to do the work that we do. That has all been an adjustment. And so the issues are the same really they've been the same for a long time unfortunately, and the needs are the same in the community the needs of the students, you know, are not unusual it's just that it has to be done with the sort of, you know, safety health and safety at the forefront approach that we hadn't been used to taking before, and it also means that we get to be creative in how we do outreach and how we reach our students as well. So thinking about like virtual events and classes and in, you know, sort of integrating technology in ways that we hadn't done before is actually kind of exciting. And so, you know, for all of the downsides to the pandemic, we have some opportunities to really seize on things that have gone well and let us reach, you know, into the community and then out to our students even in better and interesting ways. So what are some of the opportunities that responding to those issues, which historically, you both have the changes in the ways that we can interact and communicate bring to each of your fields David. Well, as Chuck knows, I've been involved with online dispute resolution, I'm starting back around 1999. So, you know, I've been working on online dispute resolution communication for quite a quite a long time and, you know, with the pandemic became a became a necessity. We couldn't meet face to face anymore. So one thing I've been working on for the past two years is to try and put together as part of an ABA online dispute resolution task force, some form of guidance, talking about what are kind of best practices, what should be doing in terms of security and confidentiality, you know, what kinds of things about accessibility, you know, and security. So one thing we are trying to do is to try and do something a little more clear, a little more concrete in terms of guidance and assistance for everybody who's operated online. And that's, you know, that's, that's, that's become a priority and kind of connection what you had asked Jelani a minute ago. You know, I think I think I feel the same way that my priorities really haven't changed. But, but what has changed is a sense of urgency. You know, even though this was really important to me now it's, it's more urgent than it ever was. And I'm looking at my community, the Twin Cities where we've had some very regrettable situations that continue. And it's, and as I look around me, it's, you know, I'll say this is not getting better. We have got to be more aggressive about our intervention. We've got to be more creative. Things are not going to return to normal on their own. I'm across the nation homicides are up, violent assaults. There are situations that I think are deteriorating. And so I am feeling a real sense of urgency that we, we need to be engaged as a as a democracy. People have to get involved. So, are there ways in which the in person disconnects during the pandemic have aggravated or accelerated some of the social justice problems that each of you tried to help deal with. I mean, I don't know. I'll tell you what I, what I, what kind of comes to mind for me is one and I mean this spills out into the community but it's just as true for, for our law students for professors, you know, thinking about staff and administrators. And that is mental health concerns. And so, you know, we think about health and safety and we're all thinking about keeping ourselves safe from from the virus, but then there's the added just stress of living in this disconnected way of students having to you know go to school in that way of teachers trying to figure out how to teach in some sort of, you know, in this online environment and still have it be engaging and, and we're doing it, you know, we did it all at the same time that we had for me. We had little kids, you know, doing virtual schooling. And so it really has taken a toll on on people just their their mental health. And so that is, that's a piece that I think is important to keep in mind and that I have had to try to think about ways to address as we are kind of inviting people back. And then I also say that when it comes to just lawyering and trying to impress upon students and we're thinking about ways to incorporate distance to our curriculum also that lawyering has actually changed during the pandemic right where we have virtual court appearances and we're meeting with clients virtually, and just you know, even as courts are opening their doors there there's some virtual processes that are going to be staying in place because they found that it actually increases say people returning to court, who have court dates, if they have a virtual date versus trying to figure out a ride, you know, to get to court. So so lawyering has changed and I think it's it's their pieces of it that are going to continue to change and so we have to think about training new lawyers to adapt to that sort of changing environment as well so there are lots of moving pieces you know it's it's it's about teaching lawyers, and it's also about the work that they're going to be doing and how they're going to be doing it. You know I don't I don't have an answer this, but as I think about the day when we really do come out of this situation, we are coming out gradually and we're kind of, we have lots of divisions in this country in lots of different ways and we now have a vaccinated division. That's pretty stark in terms of mortality. But as we come out of this situation. You know it did a lot of damage as Jelani was saying to people's psyches. And, you know, I think that we need a period of healing. You know, I think the impulse is to say that it's over and let's just go back. Two steps like we're done and let's go back and let's take off the mask let's get back in school classes will start up just like they were before. And it seems that we need to be mindful about some healing and then making some space for recovery. And I'm not exactly sure how to do that but I do think that we need to make an effort to acknowledge the fact that people have been hurt, and that we do need some healing before we can move forward as we did before. Yeah, I agree now I'll add you know something that we've been doing or going to do I mean I just signed off on this today is we just invested in mental health services at the law school and you know again thinking about the virtual space that we've all been in. There have been some counselors, our own university wellness center was doing virtual appointments, but they're returning to in person and so you know you have to stop to think that that students have you know there may be a comfort with as disconnected as we've been there's a comfort with that that virtual access that has developed over time and so we're trying to make ways for that to continue. And so this new service that we're partnering with, they do sort of like text check in students can opt in to be checked on, you know, in a certain amount of time. And then they can set up virtual appointments, you know so sort of keeping a bit of that world with the acknowledgement that that everything isn't just back to normal. And we understand that everyone have services for you to make sure that that you feel that there is that time to kind of breathe and grieve honestly it's not just that people have their own stress people lost lost loved ones. And you know their lives aren't just back to normal. So we can't pretend in the in the working school space like it is. It's really interesting to think about, what are we going to keep, you know, what are we going to go back to, you know, and that's, that's, you know, for individuals that's probably going to be a different package. Some people are going to say that, you know, I kind of like this. I like not able to commute I like not able to travel I like not able to park downtown. I never like to hang around my colleagues that much anyway I kind of like work about myself. So some people are going to say that. It's really interesting to see what kind of hybrid combinations we get right now I think one of the one of the, you know, crisis points attention points is going to be is that some players are going to demand people come back to work. You got to come back to work. And you know but they haven't been back at work for a year and a half. And I'm not sure how that's going to play. I'm not going to come back and you know, I love my job but I'm not coming back. So I'm going to resign. So I think that's going to be a little delicate this this idea that on September 1, I expect 100% of the people back, because I'm not sure that's going to happen. Well and one of the things that we're seeing and I love the really valuable insight that both of you shared that pandemics are traumatic. And this pandemic is multi sectorial it's not just help. It's economic it's housing it's education it's everywhere mental health physical health, all kinds, and that recognizing and addressing that responsibly. And understandingly, has not been a front and center piece for either national or local governance or institutions even private institutions. How do we get that the attention and the priority it deserves. What do we help people heal. Yeah, I mean, in the same way that the, that the pandemic has had all of these different layers of trauma. They're, they're going to be there's going to meet there's a need for different layers of healing also right and so you know I spoke about just sort of this mental health aspect of things. You're right there been there's economic damage, right, and it hasn't been equitable, hasn't you know been felt across the board in the same way by all demographics, you know same thing with health disparities. The pandemic in many ways have just has highlighted the inequality that we already have in our society. And so, you know, from, from health outcomes to, you know, who, who are the essential workers and, you know, who who could work from home and keep their kids at home I realized that I was very privileged to be able to do that. Right and there are people who didn't have that choice. And so, so it's really highlighted those inequities and I think that talking about it that way. Healing is, you know, if that leads necessarily to healing but it leads to attention is to saying that for all of the issues that we've already been talking about. For so many years, if we continue to to both use the pandemic both to highlight those inequities, but also to just keep talking about how the pandemic in fact, added on to those inequities in so many ways and so when we're trying to address various problems that we have in society and various challenges, we have to think about how the how the pandemic also, you know, exacerbated a lot of those those issues and I think that's it's an interesting way to, you know, keep thinking about students and what they can be learning right now and how they can be learning. That's another interesting thing to throw on the table is that in, you know, in clinics that this can be another interesting issue that can be brought up is having students be aware of this issue of how the pandemic exacerbated the issues that they were already working on in clinics and keeping that as a focus understanding that when they go into these different communities they've been hit differently by and are feeling, you know, this this pandemic differently. That's important. Now when we talk about inequities. Could you imagine somebody building a spaceship and going to the orbit while people are getting foreclosed that couldn't happen could it. Yeah, so, so yeah we got some pretty stark examples going on right now of the stunning inequities as eviction moratoriums are disappearing and people are losing their homes. They're celebrating champagne getting their astronauts wings. It's almost crazy. You know, in terms of, you know, I think that one thing that may shock employers is that when people don't come back to work. When they say you got to come back to work and they don't come back to work. That that may be kind of a kind of a rough shock to people that we do need to intervene we need to be a little more sensitive. It may not be that people just don't want to come back to they can't come back. They're just not ready to come back. And it's not that they don't like being at work. They're going to find it difficult to get back into that lifestyle and to be part of a community like that. So I think that, you know, human resource departments for companies have to be aware of that, that they may need to be, and it might have to be more individualized than they imagine, rather than kind of an absolute mandate everybody back in September 1. They're going to have to be a little more individualized. That's a really great insight is not only recognizing trauma its impact on people and they need to put it front and center understand it and offer it chances to heal through reconnections in ways that are constructive. And with exactly that problem that you just both brought up is resuming in person activities and communications. After a period of time in which people in leadership positions responsible for modeling how to deal with them have under anybody's point of view, regardless of your politics. It deviated a long way from what might be optimal ideal and responsible for dealing with us. How do people trust. Yeah, come back to school, come back to work. Don't worry about it we've got to take in care of when they know that 40% of the people out there, including most of the students who are under 12 are unvaccinated. Yeah, that's a real issue. That's one that we've been dealing with to our university actually has a vaccine requirement. But that you know doesn't sound as it's not as much of a solution as it may sound right you think like okay vaccine requirements everyone who is in person is going to be vaccinated and so we can all just sort of breathe easy. Right because the vaccine requirement also comes with, you know, exemptions, and we can file for an exemption for religious medical philosophical reasons for folks who aren't you know who do get a waiver there's an expectation of wearing masks this brings up the division that we spoke about earlier. So you'll have you know the vaccinated and the unvaccinated the masked and the unmasked. What are we saying what's the you know what's the statements that's being made. He spoke about modeling, so that's been on my mind too so I'm vaccinated, but I plan to wear a mask when students are back in most settings, because I wanted to sort of encourage number one folks who should be masked to wear one, but also to just sort of take the point that this does not need to be in you know I'm in this camp versus this camp. Right this is about making the best safe choices for our community. And also, like I said a few times I'm the mother of three little kids who are under the age for vaccination. Right and so there's so many things that go into all of this and we, it's, you know, divided us in ways that really don't make any sense. And we really have to think about how to overcome that so that we can, you know, I don't know we're ever returned to complete normalcy but that we can, you know, gather in ways that we can kind of get back to being productive without constantly being fearful. Are there differences between the ways different generations are impacted by these multi sector pandemic traumas. I think without a doubt, you know, I think it's really difficult on young kids that really do need that socialization. And they're not getting it. And, you know, the difficulty of parents trying to do their job, which is a full time job, and yet their kids are at home, and they're trying to manage technology and school without the teacher being there. And then, obviously, and predictably needing a lot of assistance. It's a tremendous burden on kids. So, you know, I entirely understand the push to get kids back in school. But, you know, with the Delta variant and kids are now getting COVID in ways they weren't before. And, you know, and that's that's frightening and it may mean that at a minimum they're going to be wearing masks again in school. And, you know, at a stronger point they can't go back to school. And if they can't go back to school again. I think that's a, that's really tough on school kids. And this is where we get to that multifaceted issue again, because if kids can't go back to school, where our parent, what are parents doing when they are required to go back to work when the expectation is, you know, yes, come back September 1. And you're thinking, well, but my kids are at home. And so I don't know what to do. I mean, you know, it's, it's, that's what I mean by saying getting past the divisions, so that it's not all about that. And that we're really just making choices that are that are healthiest and safest, but also that really take into account the real life impact of all this on people. And that has been a huge deal for me as a mother and I'm going to say for like, I don't know how many times I've now mentioned my children, but I do this all the time purposefully, because I think it's really important for people to think about, you know, all of us out there working as whole people. Right. And so I, you know, do my job with three little kids. And I had and right now I'm thinking about how to do that. When I'm being told schools will be open in the fall without a mask mandate. When I have been in schools will be full of kids who are unvaccinated. So, you know, this is the kind of stuff we think about mental health and all these layers of trauma. This is the type of things that are on people's minds. When we're saying come back to school come back to work. Right. And we really have to have to take into account everything that people are really dealing with, and really, you know, kind of be sensitive to that but also try to be as responsive as we can to it. I mean, in whatever that whatever that means in different scenarios, work flexibility, you know, childcare help whatever it is but but they're real needs that are that are really being exacerbated right now. These are really, really important things to everyone out there on a very personal level. If your employer is saying come back to work for in person work five days a week. They're reluctant to send your kids because they're not vaccinated back to in person school stuff. How do you balance that, or the other way around. Schools are doing hybrid, but you got to go back to work. How do you balance that. And how do we shift focuses and responsibilities, so that we help people evaluate and make responsible decisions about these very very personal day to day. Day to day choice questions. My head in my head. As I think about what's going on in social media. And, you know, right now the misinformation is so distressing. Social media as I don't think has been sufficiently responsible in terms of trying to kind of censor some of that and it's done a lot of damage, as we see the mortality rates rising around the country. I know that people are going on social media now and to the degree that social media organizations are trying to control that a little bit they're now getting into code words. They're using beer for vaccine and you know there's different code words that are developing online. So one thing that it's now and the president has talked about this. It's saying that you know we've got one thing we do have to do is try to combat the misinformation out there that people are getting bad advice and being encouraged to do destructive things. So one thing we can and should do is make a concerted effort to be to be better informed to get the correct information out there to reach those audiences in a myriad of different ways. Yeah, I agree. I was going to give a almost exactly the same answer about is first thing I thought to is this is about information and good information. So I'm going to make a plug and done this on a episode before but my sister and name is She's an allergy and immunologist and she has a blog and she posts Facebook and to Instagram regularly talking about giving vaccine and COVID information. And so if you're looking for a legitimate source. That's one and she you know for those of you who, if this makes a difference she studied under Dr. Fauci NIH like you know she's a real deal but So Dr. Akilah shot. She she'll get you some good information but yeah that's what you have to do you have to look for credible sources and cut through you know politics divisions anything like that and just find out like data and science on things and make decisions that way. It's difficult to understand you know we don't always know the sources are and there's a lot coming into our ears but you know, but the good information is out there if you, you can, you know, if you search for it. Thank you both so much. Some really valuable thoughts and insights about trauma about really hard choices. Very very personal things for almost everybody out there in society. Recalling back to FDR wouldn't it be nice. If we could have fireside chats every week where people who were credible without the misinformation could sit down and just talk with people about that trauma about those hard choices and about how to deal with them in ways that were honest and sincere and credible. Give that some thought. Thanks so much for your time for your thoughts and for all the value you bring to these truly appreciate it. Come back. We'll be back in two weeks. Thank you. Thank you for your time.