 So you're choosing how to implement it. Oh, one second. Are we going live? OK. All right, we're going live. We're going to do 15 seconds? OK. We'll do an intro about our cloud native shows, and then we'll jump into the conversation with you, just so you know, we're going to do something a little bit not related to this in the beginning. I'll just sit here and do what you tell me. You sit there. Going live. We are live. We are live. Hey. Well, hello. Hello, everybody. Welcome to Los Angeles. Welcome. Thank you for being here. And this is the KubeCon wrap up for today. Like in a conference, I don't even know what day it is anymore. It's Thursday after all. I'm told it's Thursday. OK. So this is Thursday the 14th, and this is real live. You're a bad authority, yeah. So thank you for joining us. My name is Leonardo Murillo. I'm going to call this my name is Leo. I'm greeting all of you who speak Spanish. I'm here because I'm your host, the cloud native Latinx, and joining me is Bart. Yeah. What's up, everybody? My name is Bart Farrell. Very happy to be here. First time meeting Leo in person. We're going to talk about that for the first time. We're doing all this kind of stuff. But also, big shout out to everybody who's watching this wherever they are. You are just as here as anybody. So we want you to feel a part of this. Awesome to be here at KubeCon. I have a good fortune of sitting on this stage right now with Leo and with Randy. But I also have the very good fortune of hosting Art as Code, a cloud native TV program. We talk about the intersection between creative stuff, whether it could be sculpture, cooking, video games, music, anything in that sort of area, and then also the tech side. And interestingly enough, these two wonderful humans that are on stage with me, both will be on the show, whether they like it or not at some point. Randy to talk about music, Leo to talk about good mentality, good meditation practices. So anyway, but we're not here to talk about that right now. We may get to that later. We got to talk about some other stuff. We want to talk and I want you to introduce yourself. So we want to talk about a new certification that has come out that's called the Kubernetes Certified Associate. Is it correct? Are Kubernetes Cloud Native Associates? OK. There you go. That's the first question of the certification. If you can remember that, you're halfway there. So please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what this certification is all about. Sure. So my name is Randy Abernathy, and I am a cloud native ambassador and big fan of the CNCF and all the stuff that's going on there. We've been involved in the training efforts pretty much from the beginning and developing all the tests and stuff like that with the community. Obviously, we're just one small piece of the machinery. But watching the CKA and then the CKAD and then the CKA version 2 and then the CKS and now this associate level kind of exam roll out, it's really kind of an interesting lightning rod for generating a focus on gathering specific knowledge about the cloud native environment and the space and the types of concepts that are important in cloud native. And at the end of the day, it's the first one of these that isn't a real hands-on kind of practical type of test. It's just multiple choice. But I don't want to belittle it either because it requires you to understand or at least be familiar with a lot of stuff that's going on in cloud native. And so it would be really perfect for anybody who's not a developer or not an administrator, but somebody who's maybe an evangelist or in the marketing. Looking over the internet. So yeah, sign up. We'll be talking. Just to get a little bit more context, Randy, can you just tell us, OK, is this the first time you've written an exam? What's your background in training and stuff like that? Great. So I work at a small shop called RXM, and we're a totally cloud native focused training shop. And so we have curriculum that runs the gamut from Kubernetes operator development all the way to just the absolute basics and then breadth that goes from Kafka to Druid and everything in the middle. So we're really all in that cloud native space. Things that are cloud native are what people look to us for. And then when it comes to developing certification, we were talking before we went live. I'm personally not always a big fan of certification. I think that it can channel people a little bit too much where the creativity pieces of it that you hold so dear are maybe squashed a little bit. And it makes people think that this prescriptive solution is the only way to go. But I think that there's a bunch of things that the CNCF and the Linux Foundation have done to mitigate the negatives and really beef up the positives. And for all of the it, we were laughing because I was saying one of the big things is that it's a very practical exam if you're talking about the CKAD or the CKS because it's hands on. You have to do these things. If you pass that test, you can do these things. And that's really, really valuable. And we were also talking about the fact that since Kubernetes is the basis of all of this cloud native stuff, and we kind of as a community agreed to build everything around that, then having a basic level of CKA kind of administrator knowledge is a pretty reasonable thing to set out. And I think because a lot of the HR people they don't have the ability to know whether the folks they're interviewing are actually qualified at any level. And a lot of companies are adopting and they're looking for help. Like how do I know that I'm hiring five people who can actually administer Kubernetes? And while the CKA is an entry level effort, it's better than zip. I mean, you know that these people have actually studied hard, taken this test and passed it, and they understand the basics, and they're a platform that you can build on. And so I think that while the associate exam is in fact multiple choice, by the same token, it's going to be challenging for people because it covers this cloud native space. And I don't know if you've looked at the latest cloud native map of projects. Yeah, the landscape thing is an eye chart at this point. And it's an awesome, I love the landscape. Everybody loves to beat it up because it's got so much stuff on it. But it's an amazing tool, right? Databases have lots of things in them. It's a database and it's a really useful one. It's interesting because I think there is a huge talent problem in the industry. Like every time that I talk to executives and organizations, they're all struggling to find talent across this limited pool, right? I think this type of tool, like this new certification, also enables access to new people to the ecosystem because if you think about CK and CK, even CKS, right? I think the barrier of entry is huge. You have to be already a practitioner, right? But this type of exam works for anybody that is looking to get started. And I think it's going to promote the growth of the total pool of candidates of talent that is going to be available to organizations. In terms of, when we talk about diversity, inclusion, outreach, getting more young people involved, all those things. And also, once again, as you rightfully mentioned, for folks that are perhaps on the non-technical side, you know, like that, because I'm not gonna lie, as someone who is on the non-technical side, it's absolutely, in my case, terrifying of thinking, I'm gonna get called out for not being, you know, a high level practitioner. And so I think we're gonna see the dissipation of some of the imposter syndrome that a lot of folks have suffered from. And encouraging other people to participate even more in the CNCF, I'm a big proponent of that, is like, you do not have to be a super mega expert to get involved in the CNCF. What you have to be is a nice person who's willing to learn. Isn't that awesome? I mean, that's what's so cool about the CNCF and this whole community. And if people don't understand that fully, please reach out and I would be more than happy to jump on a call and talk about it, because I really, really do believe that, and I want everybody to be able to experience that in any way, shape, or form. Now, a little bit more on the concrete side regarding the exam. How many questions are we talking about? Preparation time, what have we got on that? Well, I think there's a lot of early data, there's a beta exam that's running right now. So we're kind of not fully baked yet, but the beta is gonna run and there's, I think they're gonna have 400 people take it, and then they're gonna look at the results and then we'll get the final cake at the end of the baking. But probably in the handle of, I think, somewhere around 50, I shouldn't make any statements there. Don't call it a lot and don't call it a lot. Something like that, and maybe in the handle of an hour or something like that. Can people site up for debate at this point? So yeah, I don't know if it's offered to everybody out there, just specific individuals who are gonna provide lots of feedback, but there was 400 slots and those are being filled. Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't come as prepared with the data as I could have. But yeah, we can maybe follow up in some notes on the online side of things. But yeah, the idea would be that those people taking that first round, because I don't know if you know this, but the first CKA was four hours. And it was crushing four hours, and there weren't a lot of us that took the four hour version. Most of them are dead now. And then there was a three hour version, and now we're down to like two hours. And it's because the psychometricians have really boiled it down to the point where they've said, hey, you look at what you're going to extract about the person's capacity to have mastery in this subject in two hours. And then what incremental extra value you're gonna add to that precision in the third hour and it's more or less meaningless. It's not worth the suffering involved. And so we're just gonna keep it at two hours. And so that sort of was the rethinking that went into the CKA V2. And so it's a work in progress, and they're always looking for feedback. And the robustness that the Linux Foundation applies to building these things, having been inside each one of them, is pretty impressive. And Clyde over there and that whole crew is just really top-notch professionals. And they bring in outside consultants to help with the whole process. So it's really robust. And the feedback in the beta is a really important part of the cycle because we want to just torture the general public. We want to get it nailed down. And it will evolve over time even after that because people take the test and they run into something that they find maybe misleading and they thought that they knew what the right answer was. The question just didn't strike them correctly. So refinements like that take place over time. Is there a timeline for it to get out of beta and reach general availability? I believe they said by the end of the year. I keep looking at Mark to see if he can help me out there. Soon and very soon. No love coming back. Soon and very soon, we can agree on that. So in that regard, there'll be sort of the first, we can say crop of folks that are gonna be doing this, building up to the next KubeCon. And so that's exciting to see by May of 2022 and hopefully we'll all be together in Spain. That will be exciting but on top of it to see the results from that. And going back to what you were saying too is that from the HR perspective, the talent perspective, both for people that want to get into the space as well as for organizations that are looking for new people, I think having this is quite a godsend. Because at least we know on some level that you've taken the time to do this, you've shown interest, you don't just have the word Kubernetes written 15 times in your LinkedIn profile. These kind of things are very, very healthy. And because Kubernetes moves at such a fast speed, it's normal that we would have all loved to have this probably several years ago, but we've got it now. And I think this is gonna establish a really good pathway as well too for organizations that wanna get more folks to be really Kubernetes native to understand it. And also to get that path to the CKA, it's like will you start out here or CKA, CKD, CKS? I think that's a really nice thing to see. Another question, I don't wanna jump too far ahead but are there any plans to other kinds of certifications that might be coming out in the Kubernetes ecosystem, either more advanced or more beginner or more niche? You know, it's a community, right? So the community drives this, people come up with ideas for, hey, for example, I believe I'm the person who suggested to Dan Kahn that we should have a CKA. And I think he gave me credit for that one time. And so that, you know, it was just somebody saying, hey, this would be really cool. And then the CNCF taking action. And so that has happened with the security stuff. So I think anytime you find a, you know, sort of concise enough domain of knowledge where, you know, a certification could be a benefit to the community. Because I think in the mind of the CNCF and the community itself, we're always looking to do things that add value back to the community. And that's where this, you know, sort of thing came from. There's the, you know, the business value group that's meeting to talk about, you know, how can we make sure that the CNCF is creating value for the members, but also the users, you know, the users have their group and, yeah. This is such a good point because, and I'm glad that you touched on that because this came out in the last KubeCon was that, you know, the CNCF glossary. And because a lot of times it's like, okay, this is an international thing. And tied directly to this exam, right? That's it, nobody wants to feel stupid. So having a starting point, whether you're a CIO, whether you're a junior developer, having those, that starting point in building blocks gives you a framework so that you can feel that you're making progress and getting ahead. So that, and also whether it's vendors or end users, et cetera, having these go-to places to get more comfortable because a lot of the common responses around Kubernetes that it's overwhelming, it's overwhelming, it's overwhelming. Two things to that, these resources are making it simpler, but the other thing that we were saying about, you know, things that can't necessarily be tested by an exam, but the other part that I think is really important about Kubernetes that somebody told me a long time ago, Kubernetes should not just be a technical problem, it's a people problem, so get in the community. The best way to get involved is to get involved. And I wanted to lean it over a little bit to you, Leo, because you were mentioning about other topics like GitOps that might be a little bit harder to quantify, to get inside these kinds of frameworks. You were mentioning something earlier before we started with Randy about that? Well, I was talking about the work, so let's talk a little bit about community, right? Yeah. Because I think that as you were putting it, right? Like all these different initiatives are driven by the interest of the community, right? So there is a structure that allows anybody to feed back into the CNCF and to feed back their experience as to what is meaningful to them as individuals, as professionals, right? And to them as members of an industry, right? So I think what we're talking about was the working group, how people can participate in the working group and provide their feedback and their input. And matter of fact is- As well as surveys. For instance, so there is one of the things I wanted to talk to everybody is tomorrow, there is going to be a deep dive of the SIG contributor experience. And so there's special interest groups, right? Like I'm pretty sure most of you know, this one is about contributor experience, how to contribute to the CNCF and to the community. So tomorrow at 2.30, there's going to be a talk where you can understand better how to contribute to the community. I think that's very valuable. And you will find out how to participate in working groups, how to provide feedback that can be channeled into all these types of initiatives that I think are very relevant, right? And there's also going to be an ask me anything, an AMA with Priyanka, the CNCF GM that also encourage people to join in. Absolutely. And two points on that. I was fortunate earlier today to participate in a panel about non-code contributions. Just so that everybody knows, like, not, you know, we have these certifications, these training pathways. The CNCF also has ambassadors so that you have folks that can guide you, that can get you involved. If I don't have the answer, somebody else will. Like we all work together, we collaborate. There's a really, really strong spirit of community there. Another thing that's going to be going on tomorrow just so everybody knows, mentoring, right? The mentoring sessions. Super, super fun. I've participated both as a mentor and as a mentee. It's incredible, right? Really, really rapid fire networking sessions where you're going to meet a lot of people. You get your questions addressed. And because they're short sessions, don't worry if you don't get to everything. You can reach out on Slack, hit somebody up next week. You can continue the conversation. So really use all those resources that you're disposing. Like you said, the CNCF wants to know your opinion. You are going to be heard. Get those surveys and get in a working group. Jump into Slack, reach out and talk to people. So, survey, there is a survey. There's a cloud-native survey that we really want everybody to participate. If you go to CNCF.io, we really want to hear from you. And we want to know how you're using cloud-native, how you're using Kubernetes. So please go to CNCF.io and look for the cloud-native survey and fill it up. We really want to hear your opinion, right? So that's super important. And what you were talking about, right? I think community is so important, right? We were looking, so one of the asks of us that are contributing with this show is, talk about the highlights of the day. It's impossible. There's so much fantastic stuff. Like it's impossible to pick something. And we were just talking about it. What is a mechanism? How can people actually kind of be aware of everything that's going on? And the answer is through people, right? Through a community, right? Reach out others, talk to people and reach out to us because nobody knows everything. I mean, Vio, you just hit the nail on the head because when Bart was talking about the mentoring and all that sort of stuff and, you know, how do I get started? It is a massive space, right? And nobody knows everything, right? There's just clumps of knowledge all over the place that are highly valuable, but there's a community here. And you can talk to people and you can interact with folks and you can, you know, you can get six months of hard research from a five minute discussion with somebody who knows what they're talking about, you know, in a specific area. And those people are here to talk to you, you know? And you can ask them questions and virtually and in person, you know? And that's really important because, but now we're talking about the hybrid model, right? How I, it's funny because I went into a talk today. I didn't really pay attention, whether it's in person or not. And I walk in and there's not a person in front and there's just a screen. And I'm like, it's so amazing that, and I think it's done, it's been done really well, right? To merge those two realities, right? And to really provide, I mean, this is part of it, right? Like there's people right now live looking at us. Here in LA. And we were talking about how it's so important that the community is opening up to this kind of global landscape, right? And global, not just in terms of geography, right? But also global in terms of how people feel about themselves. Are you an introvert? Are you an extrovert? Do you feel comfortable with other people or not? And how it's just opening up and merging. So take advantage of that. I think that's something that is very unique to the community that we're building and to what the CNCF is. It's completely true. I've moderated 12, or I'm going to be by the end of tomorrow, moderating 12 sessions. And the app is really actually pretty cool. In the beginning of the pandemic, a lot of these virtual conference tools, they were like crashing and burning and there was all sorts of issues. But I think they really got it working because I've been able to very easily handle questions in the room and then also questions online. And people are asking a lot of questions online. And I love the fact that people can vote, right? So it makes my life easier. If there's 20 questions there, I'm going to take the ones with the highest votes because those are the ones that most people are interested in. So it's self-selecting, right? I mean, you really can participate, right? You're controlling me. I just look at what you guys tell me you want to have asked. And we asked the folks those questions. I think it's a great point. And once again is because, like you said, we have introverts, we have extroverts, we have people with varying levels of language abilities and people that speak different languages, which is also one of the beauties of this is that you can be connected to people from all over the world and it is one of the most amazing things that the CNCF provides is the opportunity to learn to break down your own culture, question your own ideas, interact with people from other places that teach you how they solve problems and how they approach this kind of stuff. I think that Kupkan, whether it's in person or online, take advantage of that. And I love how it's growing, right? So there's a lot of... So I do the Spanish, you know, like Cloud9 and LatinX, right? And it's all about Spanish and kind of providing access to people that don't necessarily speak English to be able to participate in the community. There's KCD China, Kubernetes Community China coming. There was KCD Salvador. KCD Guatemala. Guatemala, so yes, representing Latin America. So I love to see how it's expanding and it's growing to a point where it's cross-geography, cross-culture. And if English isn't your first language, you can slow Bart down to half speed so you can actually, yeah. I wasn't aware of that. Online, man, yeah, take it, I... Subtitles and everything. Now it's true, but I think, and I think it's also, we were talking about this before we got started, was, you know, resilience realized. Like that is really a good slogan. And at first, you know, you just see it on the outside of the convention center and online, but then you're hearing, you're like, okay, whoever coined that did a great job. So shout out to whoever did that. Because I think they really got it. No, and I think shout out to the CNCF because we were talking as to how this was a big gamble. This is the first event that is in-person from the industry. I think this is, I think so, I don't know. Really, wow. Of any other. And I think it was a huge gamble. I don't, at this scale, I don't think... At this scale, I'll get that, yeah. I don't think there has been others that have attempted to re-envigorate and redo this live experience. And they went all in. And I think it talks a lot to the experience of the underlying ethos of the CNCF, right? Being the first one out there trying things out, opening up to the community. So I think to the CNCF, Priyanka, Bill, everybody, awesome, it's been a phenomenal work. I was in a GRPC talk and they were turning people away. Wow. I never thought I was gonna see that at this show, but you know. Yeah. And I think that says a lot, once again, slogan resilience realize is that this step needed to be taken, it's being taken, but it's being taken not at the expense of the folks who can't travel here. You know, like Europeans can't travel to the US until November, lots of other folks from other countries weren't able to come, but you're still a part of this. All of you are still a part of this. I feel it, like your presence is just as active as anybody else is. And I think it's, I think, anyway, I completely agree, huge shout out to the CNCF. Yeah, awesome. Kubernetes is a resilient platform, but the community's 10 times more resilient. Oh, that's beautiful. And self-healing. Indeed. Indeed. And distributed, and yeah. I know, we are pods. Yeah. We've gone down a rabbit hole here. Yeah. All right, cool. So, I think other stuff that we want to highlight, how are we doing time? I was just checking, I think we're good. I think we're good? All right, so, right after this show, there's gonna be an online happy hour with Priyanka. So, stick around when we're done, because there's gonna be stuff going on. And I want to kind of change gears here a little bit and talk about mental health. Oh, yeah. And matter of fact, I think there's a good segway here, because we were just talking to a good friend of mine, and he was talking to us about his son, how he's like this very social person, and how being able to have this type of experience again is reinvigorating, right? It provides health. Totally. Bart was on a, what was it, a talk this morning on mental health. So, tell us, what did you learn about mental health at that point? Yeah, well, I think Julius Simon did a great job addressing this issue, and also it's funny, because it was mentioned by Bob Duffy in his, or sorry, maybe I'm getting his name wrong, the guy from Expedia, sorry, he gave a talk, and he was talking about the importance of listening when it comes to end users. And also in Julius' talk, just made me reflect about how there have been many challenges with COVID and many learnings, and one of them is knowing how, in order to be able to listen to others, I think you have to know how to listen to yourself, or I certainly think they're complementary, and we've all been through, or I think it's fair to say that we've all been through difficult times, and also, again, going back to the slogan of resilience, realized that acknowledging vulnerability, I think is part of the path to resilience, of understanding that you're gonna have moments that are gonna be rough, and you need to have the emotional vocabulary to be able to get that stuff out there. Unfortunately, a lot of that is loaded with privilege, because for financial reasons, for cultural reasons, for lots of different things, and I'll be the first one to admit it, it took me too long to realize going into the pandemic, or once the pandemic was in full swing, that I probably need some therapy, or I need to go back in, but it took long, but I finally did it, and I'm really glad that I did, and I encourage lots of other folks out there as well. That's also part of the CNCF. You have a space where you can talk to people about this stuff, and people are here to support you, so I think, specifically the point today was about burnout, but I think burnout can happen in many ways, and you have to be conscious that it's something that is going to happen in your organization, or it could happen, so what are the red flags, what are the warning signs, how can I really generate a culture, and it's up to each organization to decide how to do that. We could probably talk about how that works in each one of our organizations, but I think it's, I'm glad I'm really grateful that that topic was present today, and I have no doubt that it will continue to be present in future Kubecans and other conversations that we're having, but I think that if you're not having these conversations in your organization, reach out to your talent, culture, people, you know, directors, leadership, and get those conversations on the table. And I think that's really important, because one thing that at least personally happens to me, I usually don't realize burnout until it's too late, you know, and so those red flags, maybe are not even visible, even to you, until you're getting to a point where it's critical, right? But I think that's also keeping kind of this idea of community present, right? As you engage in the community, because I mean, Bart and I, for example, you and I, right, we met just basically out of, I don't even know. Has somebody introduced us? Because the Spanish thing? I don't even know. I think it was Ariel Khatib, I think. No, you know what? Shout out to him too, by the way. Yeah, he's not here, I think. He's not here, fortunately, he's in New York. Well, he is here, virtually, all right, so you're here. Having kind of establishing these relationships, right, and being able to be empathetic to one another, right? It allows us to be able to pick up on those cues, right, and promote that conversation to happen, because a lot of the times, you don't even know you're struggling, you don't even know you're suffering, right? But through communication, through interaction, giving space, then it starts to come out, right? So that's like a huge value of the community, and I think it goes beyond professional, right? Like this, we are friends, we are kind of beyond just colleagues working together. Completely agree, and we had that actually come up in our co-located event that we did on Tuesday. One of our speakers, for Extending in Circumstances, had a family member that was being very badly affected by COVID and wasn't able to give us talk at the end of the day, and obviously, all of our love and support goes out there, but people just have to, this is still an ongoing thing, you know? And whoever you have in front of you on a Zoom call, you have no idea of the conversation that they just had. Whether it's in a pandemic or not. That is so true. You can never know what somebody else is actually really going through, you know? And they may not know what you're going through, so breathe, give that space, and know that that's gonna be part and parcel of the rest of our lifetimes. And so I think we're fortunate enough that we're able to have this conversation right here. So once again, I really, I can't state this enough that I feel extraordinarily lucky, because I'm a relatively newcomer in all the scene, but I've been extremely welcomed, extremely well taken care of, have been meeting incredible people, so I encourage folks that are out there that might feel a little bit hesitant. You have a home here. You have people that care about you and that support you, that don't want to see you suffer unnecessarily. But going back to more specifically to the point about burnout, because you know, we're talking about folks that do on-call shifts, and also, this is interesting about certification that somebody was talking about earlier today. Because of this sort of knowledge gap, if you have all the knowledge centered on one or two people in an organization, if they have to miss a day at work, that's a huge threat. So when you can democratize this and spread it out more and get more folks in there, then you can potentially reduce the risk of burnout. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Definitely, yeah, I think, and you know, there's a quality that I think it's common to a lot of the people in the industry. I think we're all very passionate about what we do. And I think we're all very dedicated to what we do. Yeah. So learning how to manage that passion, right? How to time yourself, right? And how to give yourself room. It's so important. And I think it kind of dialogue allows for you to learn that from others, right? That's so true, Lou, because I think so many people in this community are just givers, you know? They will give and give and give, they will, you ask them to do something, they'll never say no, they'll just take it on. And I think it's incumbent upon us, all of us, to realize that there's a point beyond which if you keep taking it on, it's gonna be a net negative, right? Not a net positive. And you need to ask for some space. You need to throw up the white flag, right? At some point and say, hey guys, you know, this is too much. I need a break. I need, you know, and everybody's different too. You know, you've got some people who will, you know, be able to handle like crazy time shifts, you know, working different time zones or whatever, and then somebody else just can't do that. That's not their DNA, you know? And you have to treat everybody as an individual and understand, you know, how they fit, you know? You know what the pandemic has taught me that because I'm, so for instance, for me, kind of given my character, for me the pandemic actually kind of opened up a space for kind of self-awareness, kind of for insight. And I'm very comfortable. I think we all kind of in the industry are very comfortable working from home and, you know, like just having our own space and being kind of autonomous. My wife, she is not that way off, right? Like she is about socializing. She's about family, kind of extended family. And it allowed me to see that, right? How everybody has different, you know, like capabilities of supporting specific constraints and scenarios, right? And to be able to put yourself in those shoes and kind of normalize the fact that not everybody goes, kind of can manage the same level of intensity. And that's fine, you know? And you should support, and she'd understand. I think that's all the opportunity that came out of this struggle, right? Because we've all suffered in one way or another, right? So I think it's very valuable for everybody to be able to kind of see the world or attempt to see the world from other people's eyes and accept and understand. And to me, at least, that's what I've learned through this whole pandemic. And it's been a struggle because it's difficult to be able to empathize at that level with others. Do you guys think that there's like some fundamental things, though, that just are just get degraded because of the virtual environment? Are there some things that, you know, you just like... So here is a controversial opinion that I wonder what people think, because... So I want like this, please be good with me like it. I think, and I don't know if I'm aging myself here because this might just be that I'm kind of old school. But I think there's certain aspects that around leadership, around people skills, around even empathy, right? We were just talking about how one of my colleagues, that I met through the pandemic, all he knew about me was about my white office and my bike helmet. That's kind of like the whole perspective that he had on me, right? Leo. And that's the frame, Leo, that's... But there's a lot more to me than that. Not much. I tried to have some more, but there's a jacket as well. But I think there's a lot about kind of human interaction, the nuances in communication. That I actually think are very important for people to develop, for them to grow as humans and also progress in their careers, right? I think you don't want to be, I guess, like you have the option to progress your career in certain directions where the human component becomes a more relevant aspect of your duties and your responsibilities and where you can influence, right? And it's so funny that we're talking about certifying knowledge because what kind of certification is there for that? There is. There is it, but we all know that those skills are super important. They're super important. And that's one thing that, particularly for people that are starting up in this industry, I think is very important for them to hear from, I guess, older people in the industry, right? Those aspects are important. And I think we... It's not necessarily that we will not be able to get there kind of in a digital realm. But I do think that still nowadays, I personally have found such joy in finally being able to sit next to you, right? And so I'm a Latino, I'm relatively short, and I ask myself, how much taller is everybody gonna be around me, right? Like, you know? That was also like enriching for me. So I do think that maybe we'll get there through technology. I don't know, but from my perspective, and I'm curious to know what you think, there is that human physical aspect that does provide a layer of value and awareness that we still haven't quite gotten virtually. What do you think? Well, I have just two very clear tactical examples. When I'm coding, I just headphones, music, tune out the world and focus, right? And that's when I get the most done. And so it's great virtual isolation, I can just mute everything and just go. But when I'm designing and architecting, I wanna go in a room with the smartest people that I can get about this subject matter and I wanna use big muscles and I wanna draw on whiteboards and I wanna have a direct discussions, I wanna watch facial expressions as we think about different models and architectures and approaches and technologies. And I really miss that, you know? Just the discussions and the direct interaction because there's these giant whiteboards you can get that you draw and somebody else sees it and it's just not the same. And you know, there's a biological component to it, like there's a lot of research that talks as to how you're engaging your hand, for example, to draw and it actually has an impact in how your brain stores and processes information. You draw a big picture of something, you'll remember it, you draw a small picture of something, you won't. So it's fascinating. So what do you think, Bart? I think it's good. I definitely, I mean, I can do both but like having done an offsite yesterday with our team from the day on Kubernetes community, people who have been working with intensely for the last, and we've realized it's only been, you know, as a team, all of us together, I've been doing it for a year but we've only been together as a team for five months but it was the first time that all of us were physically in the same space and I absolutely loved it because I'm a kind of person that likes to get up and sit down and move around and obviously if you're at your computer, yeah, I can take my computer with me but it's just not the same. However, I do think that we've learned a ton about the power of asynchronous communication and particularly, I know you work with folks in different time zones, I know you do too. So that's a blessing in order to be able to, you know, coordinate and in my case as well, I'm in Spain, it's nine hours ahead of California. So I've always kind of juggling and then I also work with some wonderful folks that are in India. So they're three and a half hours ahead of Spain, 12 and a half hours ahead of California. So balancing those things out between the morning and the afternoon. I think that to say that it's one way or another, in my personal case, I would probably prefer to be, I mean, like I said, I think you can, I enjoy the best of both worlds but I can't speak for anybody else, you know what I mean? But I think this is the whole, like where we started, hybrid, I think that's what we're learning as a society, you know, like there's, everybody's unique and everybody's gonna need a different like combination to kind of get the most out of themselves, right? And I think that's what we're building, right? We're learning at this point. Yeah, so if we took a temperature, right? How many days a week in the office with all the other people around you and how many days a week at home from your virtual environment, Bart? That's a super good question. And actually, because in a company that was working up previously, like with, when, because in Spain they started letting folks go back to the office like relatively early. And so I think, you know, I would say maybe two days in, three days out. That's, yeah. Okay, I have three kids. I need to be out of the house. No, no, no, so I need to be out of the house all the time. But, but I think, like from my perspective, the question is what, what percentage of time do you want to be kind of surrounded with people and what percentage of time do you need to be kind of by yourself and in silence? And what I really want is I want freedom to choose at all times, because as you pointed out, right? Like, my job is always juggling hands on work from strategy from kind of client meetings. And so there's all this variety, right? I want to be able to have access to different environments where I can satisfy that on demand. And I think that's, from my perspective, for organizations that are looking to reestablish offices or headquarters or kind of whatever, they want to call it like actual in-person locations, providing their teams with that availability of experience on demand to satisfy the different constraints of kind of like, sensorial influence that they want to have is ideal. So, yeah, I need to be out of the house, but I probably would say I would like to have more time to do hands-on work kind of in isolation than I have, but just because of the nature of my role, that is a lot about kind of talking to clients and kind of solving problems. So we can take care of Bart with Kubernetes scheduler 1.0, but you're going to need some plug-ins, you know? I'm a simple human, I'm a simple human. No, I'm like a cluster, I need all sorts of different CRDs to never find it. I will say another thing though, and actually I would say this particularly in the case of with Leo because I don't remember when we started talking about it several months ago, and I was telling this to somebody else the other day, is that looking at this hybrid stuff and being inside somebody's house, like in the past it would be like, okay, I'm doing a Skype for Business or Zoom or Slack call or whatever, but it's always in the context of an office, but being like inside someone's home, so I feel like I've kind of been to your house. And personally as well too is that I love it when your kids appear in the background. And not just in your case. The dog walks by. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A dog walks by, whatever, stuff like that. We were doing a live stream and someone had to leave to answer the door for an Amazon package that arrived. I mean like, you see a little bit of everything, but I really like that stuff. And it's like, okay, we're all human and you might have nice clothes up here and then you're in your underwear again. I think of the webcam until the Amazon delivery comes. But I really like that aspect. And so, but also once again, that's me. I know for a lot of folks out there, it's been really hard. And so that's why also we mentioned this in our non-code contributor experience panel that we had is that if you wanna be in a meeting and turn your camera off, fine by me, that's your choice. I like to see people, but if that makes you more comfortable, I'm not gonna step on your toes or judge you or anything like that. So I think that I'm hoping that all the stuff that we're going through, I certainly would say so in this community, because like I said, the CNCF, people really take care of each other. As you were mentioning earlier as well, that both of you, this pay, I personally had never heard the expression pay it forward until I got here. Like, I had understood it in some ways, but two things, not only that, but it's something else that I mentioned in the panel was from talking to Hippy Hacker, shout out if you're watching. It's a concept that he mentioned taking, paying it forward even further, which is viral generosity. That the more, you know, outward high. I love that term. I love it. That's so fantastic. Is that like, if because the thing is that, and I would say this just in the context of knowing the two of you for different reasons is that I care about you and I care about you too. And if you have a problem, I want to be involved and I want to know and I want to know what I can do, even if it just saying, hey, I hope you're doing okay, or if you want to call and talk or whatever. If I can give that to you, if that's what, if I can give somebody something else, I mean my bank account has limits, I'm having to show you. But I really, I really mean that. And I feel fortunate to be in a space where I share that belief with a lot of other people that are really committed to it. It's not just a saying, like we really do take that to heart. And so like I said, I think I'm hoping that the pandemic is making us warmer people that are more accepting, that are less likely to, you know, jump the gun if something maybe rubs us the wrong way because we have no idea what somebody else might be going through. So I'm optimistic about that. Yeah, I agree. And I think what it boils down to, and I think what we're all learning, and it's not just about patterns of work, you know, and how you want to do it. It's freedom and diversity, right? Everybody is unique, and we should be open and accepting of that, and that is reflected in everything from how people are best effective, how people like to work, and freedom. Everybody should be free to choose what best works for them. I want to do a quick time check, I think we're almost. Oh, you're going to put in your plug for your book? No, but what I'm going to plug is, so I want to repeat a few things for everybody. Shout out to Bill. There you go, Bill, his behind camera. So thank you, CNCF, for this. It's been a phenomenal experience. I'm very glad, we're all very glad to be back. So awesome to be back. It's awesome. As for those that are not here physically, you are here. We love you. So the virtual hug. We love you. Priyanka's hosting a happy hour right after this, so stay tuned. Follow CloudNative.tv. So part of the community and part of what we're doing for the community, by the community, is all these shows where we try and communicate and share with you what's happening in the industry. In my case, hablamos en Español para todos los que quieran unirse en la comunidad y no hablar en inglés. Hay oportunidades en Español. So please. The XCube, Cons in Spain, perfect opportunity. Exactly, yeah. So CloudNative.tv, follow, and kind of keep tabs on what we're doing. Anything else you want to? Well, I think two things with that is with Related to CloudNative.tv, you'll see there's a wonderful program called, where can I not see certs? Where's certs? Certs magic. Certs magic. I think, Randy, you've got a date. All right. But like I said, CloudNative.tv is just one other way to get involved. Huge shout out to Pop for putting tons of work in making this go forward. But, and we're just getting started. That's the coolest thing is like, this is still just getting started. So this is yet another way for you to be involved. As a viewer, as a guest, as a potential host in the future, you can pitch a show if you want. I went through that process, so that's how I got artist code on there. So that's like a really cool, yet another amazing thing that's coming out. Randy, anything else that we should be hearing from you? I think I've disclosed everything, discloseable. All right. Except the NFT that you're working on? No, we're talking about that. This show is going to be available as an NFT. All right, well, thanks everybody for watching. Thank you all for joining. It's been a phenomenal experience and watch tomorrow at the same time. Another wrap up. Thank you all. Much love, everybody. Take care.