 Good afternoon everybody. I'm really delighted to welcome you to this our third installment of three in a series We've been delighted to run at the IIA with the European Parliament liaison office in Dublin I'll be able to introduce our expert panel today Who are going to discuss the future of work and the effects of digitalization on the lives of citizens across the EU and Indeed beyond and we will be focus focusing specifically in part on the role of the European Parliament in this regard My name is Barry Colfer and I am the director of research here at the IIA in Dublin And I'm delighted to introduce our panel So joining me in discussion today. We have Deirdre Klune member of the European Parliament for Ireland South and George Cabrita Research manager in the working life unit at Eurofend The European Foundation for the improvement of living and working conditions in Europe Eurofend are a neighbour here in Dublin one of the very first EU agencies that was established shortly after Irish accession And we're delighted to have this opportunity to renew and indeed strengthen our relations with Eurofend On the subject of today's discussion, it's difficult really to think of a topic of more centrality to people's lives Perhaps beyond their health and their family than the world of work. I always think typically when we speak of someone aside from When they lived and where they were from the first data point we often think about is how they occupy themselves what they worked at and what they did What's more many workers as we know we tend to spend more time with work colleagues than with family or friends Which obviously works out very well for for most people and Certainly for myself for my dear colleagues Yet the world of work is evolving and not for the first time With the technological revolutions driven by forces including digitalization, micro processing Artificial intelligence and other forms of technological advancements that have radically transformed tasks jobs and indeed entire professions And not to mention public employment service offerings and the ways that skills are obtained retained and updated And of course as we're going to hear today from our speakers the legacy of COVID still lingers and indeed questions about what makes a good quality job now I think are more and more discussed following the disruption of the pandemic Finally given that this is the European year of skills It just feels a very appropriate Point at which to conclude this round of collaboration with the EPLO and Dublin and the subject of the future of work and the effect of digitalization Our panelists will each speak for seven to ten minutes I'll then give our speakers a chance to discuss anything that has been said between them before opening the floor for questions and answers With you our audience and I will moderate the questions for our speakers You'll be able to join the discussion as ever using the Q&A function on zoom and please send any questions in Throughout the session and we'll come to as many of them as we can Reminder that today's presentation and questions and answers are both on the record and you can join the discussion on Twitter using the handle at IIEA We're also live streaming this afternoon's discussion. So a very warm welcome to all of you joining in via YouTube I'll now formally introduce our speakers before first handing over to Deirdre and then to George Deirdre Klune is a member of the European Parliament for Ireland South Haven't been elected in 2014 and re-elected in 2019 She's a member of the funigale party which sits with the European people's party group in the EP the largest group in Parliament Her role as an MEP in her role as an MEP Deirdre is a full member of the Parliament's committee on Internal Market and Consumer Protection or IMCO committee and as a substitute member of the environment public health and food safety or envy committee Previous to a work in the European Parliament Deirdre was an engineer and a local authority representative in Cork City and at the national level in both houses of the Iraqis the Irish Parliament For a second speaker, we're delighted to welcome George Cabrita George is research manager in the working life unit of Eurofound European foundation the improvement of working in living conditions, which as I say is based here in Dublin in this role George is responsible for formulating Coordinating and managing European wide studies surveys publications in the thematic areas of working conditions and industrial nations George joined Eurofound as a research officer in 2009 and has been a research manager since 2016 Prior to joining Eurofound, George worked in various economic and social research institutes in Portugal Colleagues, thank you very much for being with us and I hand the floor first to Deirdre Me, okay. All right. Thank you, Barry. Thank you very much Good afternoon everybody The future of work and what it means the digitalization of this is very broad subject But no doubt. Absolutely. We've seen we've got some insight in the last years with COVID on the value of digitalization Uh, not just in the workforce, but I suppose and Could be said to bring bring us together and what it allowed for people to in their own homes to contribute and to share To be involved in their communities in their workforce as well And suddenly I even found here in the European Parliament. I'm in Brussels as we speak and we were overnight able to vote in our homes just Print off your boat ballot paper Sign it and that was it whereas previously and still now we have to be in presence But but I think and it's shown Uh, it's it's shown up and other things. It's it's shown. It's really If you think leap leap taken leap forward in digitalization and workplace It's also exposed probably a level of skills that we don't have and that we could have and that we should have So, um That's the question that we've seen. I mean the place of work and how we work Where we work there's been a lot of discussion around it. I see I just I'm finishing a I'm dealing at the file at the moment myself on artificial intelligence And what it means digitalization We're seeing absolutely changes In the kind of work and what what it would mean for the workplace. It's been described as Another major revolution likened to the industrial revolution. I don't know if we're in the middle of that I don't know but all I know is we have to Steer with steers and go go with it at the moment and it's we're dealing with legislation Looking at looking at artificial intelligence in the area of the workplace as well and that if it is if it's there for if you're using it for Or to employ people Then that has to be made you have to make people aware of it that they are being that Their CVs are being scanned by by artificial intelligence, but at the same time so that that is a high risk area So you have to register that but at the same time Then I think you can see the value of artificial intelligence if we look at the area of Biasy for instance that if you have if you control the data and make sure that you try and eliminate data As best you can bias as best you can from the data. Well, then you can have a good result But anyway, but I think we're here to talk about What what what does mean? I think it'll mean and it there there are certainly tech Digitalization new technologies. They are generating absolutely new forms of employment a new concept of work and it's a challenge to us and to our labor markets and We even when you look at the limits the rules on and of labor law social protection when it comes to When it comes to called platform workers those working in the gig economy. What does it mean for them? that those we need to have questions for that answers for that and recognize That workers have an important have still have an important role in our society and that needs needs to be protected and then The benefits of what I would think are absolutely more flexible work More imaginative more adapt to the forms of employment I even see myself now, you know, I can't make a meeting. I can't be physically present But I can actually contribute remotely. I think that's been of enormous benefit that we've seen for more and more in the workplace people are Not not necessarily going in for the five days a week but going in for three and I think, you know, that that kind of flexibility has been of enormous benefit to people that's Challenge for employers to make sure that they get that right balance But I so often I hear now from individuals that if they're going for a job to do my own family as well If it doesn't allow for Flexible work or it doesn't allow for time to work from home. They're not interested in the job So I think employers will be changing as well with their employees or with the potential potential employees and how they they see so Dead there and obviously digitalization is creating new more new types of work new jobs and education and training and We need to make sure That we have the skills for that it will require Two types of skillings to say upskilling, which is the existing staff have to gain new skills And that's we see that a lot in the when the workforce Employers are doing that but also re-skilling and that's where Individuals employees have been left behind because they don't have the necessary skills And that's really really important to be focused that that that would be a really part of Of our work. We're doing it here in the parliament as well. This is European This is European years of skills And what does that mean? It means we to focus on bringing everybody with us and not just people in young people studying, but it's older people It's and and in between people and women who want to get back into the workforce of those who've lost Who've lost the job find that they're in a transition phase They need to be supported and with the necessary skills then they can participate in the this the skills They can participate in the employment sector. So I think it's interesting to watch Every year the the commission produces its economy the digital the society and economy Index and Ireland does quite well and that looks at various factors across the board Looks at skills or looks at Issues like integration of digital technology public services human capital connectivity When you look at the skills, we do have Compared to other countries quite a high level of basic digital content and creation skills So we are we're good in that and we were behind in high higher level ICT specialists and enterprise providing ICT training. I'm looking at that over the last number of years But last year we were coming coming up there and particularly when you look at women with ICT skills We do quite well. We're number one. We're number one in in Europe for that now It's not a I'd like to see it stronger. We're not in a desirable position I think you probably give them more of an insight into how the rest of Europe is in When we don't focus enough on on getting women into into the stems into this into studying the the STEM subject science technology engineering maths and actually working in that area particularly in the ICT area We need to do more of it because um, you know, you need to look where you're Where are we going to get the new workforce for that? I reckon there's a lot of it in and in A lot of talent there with our females and we're going to have there is the skills shortage just at the moment in many areas That's one of the reasons we do have the european years of skills this year Targeting get seven six million People there will be upskilled this year 2023. So we'll see the measurement where that brings But I think it's it's it's important It's one of the areas we recognize that skills skills shortages and I mean we hear it from employers all the time they need more More those skills and are they going to is that's a question for immigration as well for a lot of our european member states um So we do have We want to see part in the palm skills agenda and sure that people businesses can take Full advantage of those technical development advancements of where they're going to go We need and we need this this concept of lifelong learning no longer is what you gain in your schooling or your First entry into the third level sector or your diploma, whatever course you may have after schooling No longer is that just enough you have to be and I think we're seeing it more and more that um Lifelong learning is important and remote working You know because we've got remote working now again connectivity is important there Ireland does fare quite well in that. We're actually overall in europe in terms of the Digital society and that's where number five Which is which is good, but we should keep striving to be number one and number one plus in my view and So in what one you are the one of the topics is what can european empowerment do well we've had A lot of focus as I say on looking at looking at Gig workers those working in the in the sharing economy area and You know, I recognize there's a balance here that people want to work in that They like the flexibility of it's like the turn up when they choose element of it But then many people find that it's we're moving moving towards a contract only, you know Pay pay for what you work and no support and services around that so that needs the area where we need We need just need greater clarity around platform working and structures within member states to establish Social security protection for those people In a way that they can contribute should they want to but I think that's important And the work life balance directive has been enacted 2019. So we're now Almost three years into that Incidence was enacted and that I think was really important at all say Work life balance. It's not just about the female participants of those who have It's also about parent fathers or the parent of the child as well in terms of when talking about childcare That they would be involved. I think it's been the introduction of parental leave Paternity leave maternity leave have all been very beneficial They've sent a message to people to those workers whether it made a female that it's important Society wants you to work once you tap children Once you to work at the board and we're going to support you in those times So I think that those provisions are very welcome. I think at one point you didn't have maternity leave available in every member state So the fact that we've moved from maternity leave now to paternity leave I don't think we can underestimate the importance of that And of course they're going with that then is the cost of childcare And supporting parents with with the childcare cost because I would say it's not forever that the children will be young and Babies or infants and I'm sure I hope I'm speaking to many people who are struggling with that at the moment We all did our struggles But to have support in that because it's a very short time and suddenly they're going to school and that You know, it becomes the burden become is reduced of the burden of childcare So, uh, I think they're very important aspects of developing and creating an ecosystem whereby people can feel comfortable in work and that work doesn't Shouldn't dominate your life It's a really really as you said Barry is a really important element of your life It's probably where you make your most friends you spend a lot of your daytime with people But then we do have lives outside that as well need to recognize that at work The other question probably will be coming up will be working week. Should it be four day week? And I don't know that some such as maybe that suits others it won't but I think You know, we've seen as well like I mean It came up in a discussion we had this week about artificial intelligence that The area it's going to in workplace. It's going probably the areas the sectors is tourism insurance and Accountancy and then the legal sector as well where it'll take a lot of them of the Of the word can you use donkey where I don't know that well the basic the regular workout would leave more time for creativity And then improve productivity. So it's about the quality of work. What are the quantity of the work? So they can be the advantages, but then what does it mean downstream for what does it mean for Jobs that are displaced. I think the solution there is upskilling or re-skilling So, um, I think I think kind of the points I wanted to touch on I'm sure in the discussion will get get to more more areas But generally, you know, I think we have to digitalization. I would say it's here with us we have to Not run away from it not banished. But it's there. It's important It's making lives easier for people But we've got to be really careful that we don't leave anybody behind and That that our workforce is prepared for the future those that are currently in work that can be upskilled And those that need need need re-skilling. They're very very that's very important So thanks so much there there are several things you said that I'd be really keen to to discuss with you But I'm going to wait. I'll hold my wish until George has finished his remarks But I'll also say I'm delighted to have been I've been able to avail of two weeks of paternity leave recently And it is it's a it's a relatively new phenomenon Ireland as we know and actually It's really it was really fundamental to have those two weeks at home with my with my family And if I didn't have them, uh, I would have really missed out on something You know, and I wouldn't have known if I hadn't had the opportunity So it is a really important to need a fundamental shift. I think in the way we organize our work And I would say that that makes you more content in your work because you have that balance, you know You don't feel cheated from the time at home that you should have had with the baby But you feel that you you know, you can approach work with a more Positive attitude For parents everywhere, I hope uh, George Over to you, please. Thank you so much. Uh, uh, hello everyone. Good afternoon Again, a big thanks to the the organizers of uh of this event for for having us Uh, my colleague Barbara Gessenberger was supposed to be here today, but unfortunately she's not able so Her apologies and I'll try to uh, uh, do my best to fill in Her her, uh, participation So basically I would like to make a few points, um, which stem from, um Recent research and from some some thinking that we have been doing recently around, uh, the future of work and more specifically about, uh The the digital future of of of work So one of the things that we know is um that no one has a crystal ball To know exactly what the future of work will look like But there are a few things that we are certain about and I would like to highlight some of those Things which we some of us call them drivers and there are four of them. Uh, three of them I'll go kind of Rather briefly and then I'll spend a little bit more time on the last one Which is about technological change and so closer to the discussion We are having today the first of those drivers is that I would like to underline is, um This idea of re-globalization and geopolitics. So at the moment we are in this circumstances, uh Of of being in the middle of a poly crisis. So we are in the middle of many Different changing events. So we have climate change. We had the kovat 19 pandemic We have the invasion of ukraine. We had brexit lots of convulsions and crises happening at the same time and this is basically questioning the way that we structure our economies and our societies and Actually at european level, there's some rethinking about the strategic autonomy of the european union actually as a whole, right? So there's a few decisions taken there into which effect may affect fair trade protectionism, etc. And this will also have an impact on our economies our employment structures and and working conditions. So Just to contextualize a little bit And and to say that the digital transformation and the way that work will look into the future Is not only dependent on the digital the digital but also other aspects and this re-globalization is certainly one of them The second aspect, which is also very important and I believe dirger Touched upon it. It's the demographic demographic change. So There are a few long-standing trends. So we we we see increased life expectancy We see a decrease in the number of birds Our population population is aging and quite quite rapidly and and therefore our workforce as well So there's an increased dependency rate between those who are at work and those who are not at work But there are also some conjunctural trends such as EU immigration. So given the the circumstance of brexit, for example, people EU citizens going back to their countries and we have also non-EU migration with some fluxes coming from many parts of the world and refugees from Conflict areas and and and so on and so forth But this kind of will ask Some questions about the way that we organize our work namely to what extent work our workplaces are Ready to include and to cater for a diverse workforce. So this diversity is increasing very fast It's very likely that we increase even further in the future even as a way of dealing with Labor shortages, which have been mentioned already by by dirger So this idea of sustainability of working conditions and the protection of the most vulnerable Is certainly part of this conversation of this need for inclusion as well in this Big change, which is the demographic one So if we move on to the third one, which is also very important It's uh, we we have the greening the climate change Which is happening at the at that at the same time and we are kind of feeling it So there's more frequent and larger scale extreme weather events wildfires heatwaves floods droughts everything happening More intensely and faster and with higher frequency all across the borders in our European Union and this will have an impact on working conditions as well So especially for those people working outdoors, for example, this will mean some transformations and some changes will have to take place Um at the same time we will have to implement some Climate policies adaptation policies mitigation policies, and we have the european green deal Which is this big plan the path towards a carbon neutral society in europe by 2050 And this will have incredible effects on our economies and our employment structures. There will be Great transformations in this respect Some jobs will be destroyed other new jobs will be created and many jobs will be transformed by this transformation and this one this this climate change and this Transition to a carbon neutral economy is very tied to the digital transition as well And that's why some of us talk about the twin transition So there's this intent of bringing digital and green together and try to find the sweet spot between these two types of Transformation and this leads me to the the last of my four Let's say major drivers affecting the future of work and that's technological change So did you already mentioned the number of aspects related to this? It's a very fast-paced change. So this is kind of every day We basically blink and there's something new coming up in in our lives And this affects our work as well We talk about automation platformization digitization of services There's already talks about 6g. There's 3d printing happening. There's internet of things. There's so many different Concepts and things happening at the same time, which are permeating our lives and our work as well artificial intelligence As well in general and in particular its application to the workplace. It's certainly will implic It will drive some some changes in terms of the nature of some of the work Because not all work will be transformed by AI, but Some work will be for sure and then the way we allocated tasks And the way that we monitor and assess performance At work will be certainly affected as well by by AI. So there's a number of consequences there Which we have to keep an eye on and certainly open for for discussion And apart from artificial intelligence Something which uh the third dimension which is remote work And we know a little bit more about this because we have been doing quite a lot of research on on the topic And I would like to delve a little bit about the benefits and and challenges of remote of remote work So we we we have seen that there was a boom of of teleworking during the pandemic And in the wake of the pandemic, there's a lot of conversation about this idea of hybrid work Should people return to the offices full time? Are we allowed to work flexibly and choose the the location of our work? And these are conversations that need to be informed as well And there's a few things that our research is showing is that on the one hand Those people doing remote work they tend to long to work longer hours They tend to report a greater work intensity. So when they're left to their own devices, um, there's some sort of a Uh negative impacts, let's say stemming from from this then in terms of work-life balance Some people say it's beneficial, but others find it a challenge. So sometimes it's not very easy for them even working remotely to, uh, uh, reconcile their their Private and family lives with with their work then the aspects of creativity and innovation which are also very important for for for The the workplaces. It's an expected benefit But some people are arguing that actually remote work is kind of curtailing this potential to creativity and innovation that sometimes arises from Direct interaction at the at the at the office, for example Then there's obviously the discussion about commuting transport systems, etc So the time and cost savings that come with less commute on the one hand But at the same time we this raises questions about the way that we are organizing our cities And the way we organize our transports and the services that Are part of our of our of our lives and our families So child care is just one of those examples and we have to integrate those things in in in our equation and then finally this there's this sense of Potential inequalities between those people that can telework because not all jobs are teleworkable and those people in jobs Which are non teleworkable. So things like career progression, for example The fact they don't they don't interact so much with their managers or supervisors. There might be some differences there and We have to think about also this kind of inequalities that may arise from the promotion of this kind of work But in the end and I don't want to spend much more time and Just to send a final message from from our side is It's about job quality. Okay, so it's about the quality of the jobs that we have at the moment that we will create in the future in the transitions I mentioned And to ensure that we make jobs more attractive. So some of the jobs Some sectors such as for example The the the health care sector or the long-term care sectors They are suffering from very severe labor shortages and we are studying those sectors at the moment and the jobs in those sectors unfortunately ever Relatively low job quality in comparison with average or with other groups of workers So one of the ways of improving the attractiveness of these jobs is actually by improving the job quality of Of of these jobs and then of course, there's the role of these of job quality in supporting the transitions So this is linked to works to workers health and well-being. So by having better job quality We have better health and well-being reported by workers And also more engagement Better job quality implies more engagement with all the consequences that brings both for the workers But also for their employers and their organizations and there's a type of organization the so-called learning organizations Which are more likely to promote these links and that's a kind of discussion that we can have as well Which is how do we organize our companies our organizations and what kind of Things are more important to drive us into the future and then just to conclude So in order to achieve our desired future with an engage And adaptable a skilled and resilient workforce in the jobs where workers are needed the most We need high quality jobs This is one certainty for sure in very uncertain times at the moment And now I would stop here for the moment and happy to discuss further. Thanks Thank you so much George and Deirdre so much to work with there and i'm going to Go through a couple of things that i'm thinking about now from from your presentations and then turn over to the audience and Just a really general one for you george to begin with I have my own idea of what a good quality job is. It's probably different to what to what you and what Deirdre and anyone else would think and Can you just describe like what sort of language do you use when describing? A job being of good quality or not and kind of what are the objective ways of measuring that? absolutely With great pleasure actually because that's that's something that we have been working on for for many many years so We know that some aspects of of our jobs of our working conditions Are intimately related to our health and well-being. We know that If we think in simple terms, we have two types of of things at work You have job demands and you have job resources If you have job demands job demands are things that require effort from you Okay The amount of work that you have to do the effort that you have to put in either physical or emotional Those are things that are required from you the the schedule that you have if you have to work nights or weekends or shifts All of these may have different impacts on your health and well-being. Okay So the more job demands that you have the more likely is that your work will impact negatively on your health and well-being And then you have the other side of the coin, which are the job resources Those are the things that give you tools to address the job demands that you get This is not a zero sum. So it's kind of it's something it's not that liquid Let's say, but the fact is that the more job resources you have the more engaged you will be and a positive Implications you will have for your health and well-being. So for example, if you have social support from your manager And if you're your colleagues at work You're much more likely to be engaged on your job than someone who doesn't get that sort of support And support it's kind of just on your daily basis, you know to get some support when it is needed. So A job with with good quality is a job with The minimum required job demands to perform the work that needs to be performed and to the highest level of With the highest level of job resources possible for that for that job. So a good Quality job is a job that actually promotes health and well-being Of of workers that would be the definition Of course, then I can go in more detail But this we are talking about dozens of different variables the different dimensions and so on I just gave a few Very interesting I'll invite you your dear to to comment or respond to anything that George says in a moment and vice versa George But just something that I'm thinking about is I do think about this a lot like everybody does And I'm absolutely sure that like what I would and this makes this a fun thing to research I think but I think my attitudes towards the things you've described changes across my life cycle Now I think when I was younger one is my 20s the things that kind of motivated me to go to work The social aspect the kind of learning aspect. It's probably different now in my late 30s The sorts of things that I will kind of value and that would have a positive or negative effect on my health I don't know if that factored into your research at all the kind of It is it is and our research the things that we try to keep in in our modeling if you wish It's the objective things. It's so we try to to keep the the subjective part Away as much as possible. There are things that we know are detrimental to your health If you work long hours for a sustained period of time over time That will absolutely have a negative impact on your health either you like it or not if you For example, if you are poorly rewarded for your job So if you have the feeling that you're not well paid for the job that you do despite the efforts that you put in This will have a negative impact on your health either you like it or not These are objective measurements of things Which determined on the one hand determined your job quality and at the same time Will have an impact on your health and well being right the things that you were talking about are about preferences and of course When you measure those things so for example work life balance is something that we don't include in our modeling Exactly because of that because work life balance means different things for different people at different stages of their lives If they're students if they are young parents if they are You know at the latest stage of their lives work life balance means different things so that we keep it outside of our Yeah, the modeling cool Do you know I was going to come back on a couple of things that you said but I'd like to invite you Do you want to say anything to what George said in his intervention? There's no no, I think it's interesting and I just like one of the points I wanted to raise as well was about um Mental health and now we see more stress in the workplace. Now. Do you have that because I You spoke about quality jobs and obviously being job. I think the word job satisfaction Is important as well that you're happy doing the work you're doing you feel you're contributing And I would think that somewhere along the line too that Renumeration and what you've been paid for the job is really is really important Has to be and and you mentioned that George just do we see again? I know we hear a lot of Post-covid and people under more pressure more stress That the workplace is I actually think being involved in the workplace is very It's good for people good for people to interact if they can if if it allows that And make sure and not to be remote all the time all and all and then of course we had with with remote working You're always on and should you be getting an email after? 6 p.m at night. I don't I mean I think and I think I think to win an era of m High high employment a lot of people a lot of employers are looking for people to work for them. So They you can see already the workplaces responding to this. They're seeing Consulting with the workers. What do they want for them recognizing? That you know that money isn't everything and that job satisfaction quality work recognition is important Understanding and saying look, you know, you don't have to you you've got a personal appointment That's fine. Go and do it and look after yourself Recognizing long term that as you say a healthy somebody who's healthy and happy in their workplace is far better For long term and I think like you can see employers are responding to that and there's lots of them There's lots of information around that now. So I think I think on the whole the workplace Should be safe for now and it should be a better better all around for for individuals Yeah, and George I'll invite you if you want to respond to that I've got to come back to you and something and Relating to remote work in a moment and I had another question on gender for Deirdre But do you want to respond to Deirdre George? You want you to say? Well, well just to say that I fully agree with uh with the Deirdre's comments there and to say that In comparison with other areas of the world with other regions of the world The European Union does quite well in terms of health and safety at work. So we have a very strong legislative That allows, you know to have the bare minimum applied You know almost across the the entire European Union The things that we are talking about here in terms of job quality kind of goes a little bit beyond that And it's it's more about those things that are harder to legislate, you know So this these ideas of for example, uh, having a meaningful job, which is very subjective, right? but people if if what they do as kind of a strong meaning for them and they That would be kind of They put a bit more efforts and they are more engaged. They are happier and so on so forth. The job satisfaction is higher If you are doing a job, which you you know, you have absolutely no relationship to you Don't care. It's just there to make a little bit of money to pay your bills at the end of the month That's not kind of a sustainable situation. I would argue, right? So and these things are very hard How can you legislate? The meaningfulness of work you cannot, right? It's coming it'll come organically, you know from from workers demanding it and from workers They leave the job and the employer And I recognize it's not all about health and safety. That's that's a given But um, it's about it's about satisfaction But being recognized being appreciated and having structures and predictable structures that you know, you can be or Exactly, you're not overburdened and you and very important as well Is that we we allow and we promote the conversation between workers and employers as well because it's Unfortunately, it's still not the case everywhere. There are still many workers who don't have access to any structures or trade unions or representatives at the workplace so, uh We are we are not too bad in europe, but we could do better in that respect So that's something that we should absolutely promote so that employers can understand better Workers preferences as well and can play a little bit around those preferences. Absolutely I think a word you just used Deirdre Predictability is is really central to the challenges that a lot of people face and their employment's both, you know Anecdotally, but also in terms of the of the data on a macro level people who are able to organize their working lives around to predict Sorry, their private lives around a predictable working life and a practical amount of income Those who don't have that privilege life can be very difficult I have a question just to put you Deirdre and then I've um, I'll dip into the Questions and answers then because there's actually there's quite a lot going on in there Picking up on something you you brushed up against the idea of gender Deirdre and your opening remarks. Do you think and and in what way? That the the the digital revolution is or will be felt differently by people of different genders or indeed people of different socioeconomic classes At different intensities and in different ways. I don't know if you can share any of the discussions that have been had either in the group or in the committees that you're a member of Regarding the impact of all we've been talking about on men and women and others Well, I would think that the figures show that the women are men are probably more have this have skills the digital skills Before women, but I think looking at figures like in terms of basic skills and skills to interact with e-government or forms and that women are better, but but you know I think it's just it's a it's a matter of education. It's a matter of from a work point of view if we're talking about digital skills Technological skills, and we need to get more more women in there and the point I tried to make is that you know we were in an area of High employment, so we need women we need women workers as a vast talent a pool talent out there Pool of talent that we don't use so we we we should do that But we need to just generally address women and skills Upgrading them and getting them to take up those kind of jobs where they need because there are vacancies there But you know like anything it's like any area unless you have a you need a balance, you know whether not just not just a gender but in them uh diversity in all areas particularly in in with those with disabilities and immigrants and Those those that are here for a short time. We need that that kind of a balance now And I think it's important if we're going to be a Detractive if we want to attract people to work here We've got to have uh, we've got to show the word that in Ireland with that they were they're diversified and it's open to everybody and that's it's not just a One one type fits all it's not Diversity in any areas is always important Okay, but George before I go to the um the questions and answers Is there are there any patterns or anything in the data that you want to remark regarding gender or Kind of any other profile that you think is of interest Yes, I I think one of the things that we we should remind ourselves apart from of course the the the the issues that were already mentioned this this uh Gender segregation that we can see in sectors and occupations and so on There's something which is kind of In my opinion a bit more profound and that we have to address if we want to change things In in a good way, and that's the division of labor in terms of Paid work and unpaid work because in our data we can see that men spend more time in paid work than women do But then women spend much more time than men in unpaid work unpaid work. I'm talking about You know doing your house chores to care for children care for Other members of the family and so on and when you put all those figures together Women end up working many more hours per week than men do On average on average the your average european Working woman works Eight the equivalent of eight weeks full time more than men do And this is just uh incredible, right? So this is something that we have to break down and then we have to rebalance In order to get women to be more participant perhaps in in un in paid work Then they already are right. So when we think about getting more women in in the so-called STEM sectors and occupations We also have to understand What they are not doing or what are the reasons for their choice when they are looking for a job and so on and so forth because most of the times Unfortunately still these days when women have children they Remove themselves for many, you know for long periods of time from the labor market And if we can rebalance that a little bit more then perhaps things could be a bit different. Uh, I would argue Yeah, I just like to if I could pick up on that point I think it's a very interesting topic And I know I know the figures that women do much more work In unpaid work But and it's it's in particularly when they're working themselves because they do the unpaid workers But I have I mean, I don't know how you can't legislate for that. You cannot tell I have the thing about the state coming behind your front door, you know And clean all that that's your that's your problem or that's your privilege I don't know or sweep the floor like you know, I think I think um, let's stay out of that Let people work that out for themselves But recognize that we do have to support like child care is important Caring up the elderly because women just do so much more of that and that you're right That's what keeps them out of work But leave leave the housework to let to let a couple sort that out themselves I think, uh, because you can't let don't go there. You can't legislate for it But um, it's an important point Absolutely important point and I think it's going to be picked up further in the in the the q&a We'll only get to as many of them as we can in the kind of 50 minutes that remain And there's questions on innovation on working time and artificial intelligence and more I'm going to begin with a question from dan O'Brien our chief economist here at the IIA. Hello Dan Thanks for being on the call Dan says the belief that innovation happened around the water cooler Was uncontested before the pandemic yet incredible innovation took place during lockdowns What do the speakers think about the connection between being in the office And levels of innovation I'll start with George first and then go to Deirdre So the connections between being in the office and being innovative and being creative George You mentioned it briefly in your remarks That's that's yeah, that's a very interesting question. Thank you so much for that Uh, what I can say is that from a recent Piece of research we have done around the idea of hybrid work So hybrid work is a situation in which people have to work a little bit at the office Or at the employers premises and from home with different Let's say frequencies in both sides But what we have seen there is That this the different locations have different purposes or they can have different functions, right? So when you need your social support when you need your Your partner your colleague to you know exchange a few ideas from Or when you need to sit down with your supervisor or manager to discuss serious things In principle that should take place in the office When you're working from home, it's a different kind of Work you can do deeper work. You're more focused in principle Of course, there can be distractions as well And that that was a complaint of people with with families with kids, for example When when kids were not in school But in principle, if you can work from home with a certain type of Purpose that would have a certain type of function So in relation to the idea of innovation I believe that both locations can have A function in that you know in that process of being creative and in innovation It doesn't have to be necessarily at home or in the office It's a mix of both And let's see if you know, we are conducting more research on this In practice So we want to do some case studies with companies implementing hybrid Workplaces and we want to see to what extent creativity and innovation is functioning for them in this kind of model So hopefully in the near future we'll know a bit more about that Right, any thoughts? Any thoughts on that? Yeah, I think I don't have the the data the research now that George had But I would say there's a mixture of both obviously being at home and being able to concentrate is good But nevertheless, I don't think you can substitute for the brainstorming session And when Dan mentioned there the water cooler moment I was reminded of this we were of a story we're down in biotech visiting They were responsible for the vaccine the mRNA vaccine Pfizer biotech And they were telling us the story of how they Realized that their mRNA for that they were developing for years Could be changed to can't to from a cancer vaccine to a vaccine for For covid and it was it wasn't a water cooler moment. It was a coffee coffee station moment But the same principles. So I don't think you can you can ever you can ever substitute for human humans direct contact that brainstorming that bouncing of ideas because Like we're in a zoom call now or yes, it's zoom. Yeah, and you you know You have your internship, but there's no that there'd be if we were all sitting around a table would be I think conversation would flow special But you know mixture both absolutely and it doesn't have to be have to be nine to five Six seven eight days a week you can have a mixture and that's that's probably what we've learned. There's a good balance there Absolutely Well, we can't get away from what I think you said at the outset you're at the fact that we're in You know discrete locations that three of us with one you weren't different locations of three of us and obviously everybody on On the call where there's dozens and dozens of locations that there's obviously Positive positives and negatives as I'm sure you'd agree Yeah, absolutely Don't to shift gear. I think this is really interesting. There's a question from Stephanie Ryan Thank you for being on the call Stephanie. I have to say I don't fully agree with the premise of the question But I'll put a key you not think that no commuting times Means that we can work a bit longer Three hours a day commuting saved when working From home most people don't mind working a bit longer. I think I kind of muddled that a little bit I'll try it again. Do you think that no commuting means that we can work a bit longer? Dot dot dot most people don't mind working a bit longer I'll tag on to Stephanie's question. Thanks again, Stephanie The question from Dylan Marshall one of our researchers at the institute and Dylan noted that last month in May Commissioner Schmidt the commission The European commissioner for jobs called for an EU wide four day work week Do you think that this is a desirable or possible? So there are the two questions also Stephanie about not commuting and maybe we have to actually work a bit more And one from Dylan about whether we can move towards working less to a four day week Or maybe a restructured week the same hours across four days Anything either in the data George you could speak about or in the politics theater from your discussions in parliament Maybe starting with you first theater Okay, I'm well on the commute and yeah, absolutely if you're not sitting in a car sitting on a train or If you haven't that all that time Wasted commuting and you can put it to work here But I think then, you know, that's that isn't a matter of that's a matter for the individual that's doing the work Or for the employers to build to build that into an arrangement to put you out I mean as in like that It's um, it's important to Sometimes you have to travel to be face-to-face, but if you can spend the time working I mean, I think it's it's Courses for courses there's some jobs, of course We're to recognize in all this discussion That you can't like that you cannot at all but be in presence and I think quickly of the healthcare sector hospitality those we those face-to-face professionals So I think they don't have any they don't have any choice in this and they still have the commuting time as well And on commissioner smith's proposal for a four day week working week four day I mean we've seen a little bit of that in some companies already starting to move towards it And I I mean I think yes as it becomes like jobs change If it's possible. Yes, but this again some jobs you won't be able to do you'd have to hospitality health care is the two that mentioned food sector Retail will have to be six or seven days a week um But if I mean, I would think that there's lots of companies I know now have a shorter working week or even half day friday if you work extra during the week Is it is it about the 40 hours? Is it about the the quantity of the hours at the quality of the hours? I think you can again like that And I would think it's a it's a matter for for individual companies and for the counter and Employees and the the job that they're taking Yeah from from my side in in relation to the reduction of commuting times I mean that's obviously an individual decision to do whatever they want with their time we looked at the The however at the effects in terms of emissions so cot emissions to what extent this would kind of Reduce the emissions and the the it's inconclusive because basically if you stay at home you have to use energy anyway Very likely you're kind of if you're by yourself in your household You are perhaps not as efficient as being in an office in terms of you know when when it comes to heating or Use of energy so it's it's it's a bit in in principle. We should see some reductions there but in terms of emissions obviously, but Yeah, we don't see we don't yeah, there's no conclusion. There's no clear conclusion about About this in terms of of the time usage I mean depends on the individual of course if if they decide to make Use of that time to work more that's their prerogative But I would say that there are other things also interesting in life to to do and they can develop Themselves personally, you know in other areas as well. So it's it's a it's a matter of making a clever use of that time In relation to the four-day workweek, this is something which is being trialed at the moment So there was a big trial in the uk and some of the some of the results came out It's being trialed in other regions of the world in other continents as well and again So far what I have seen in terms of research or the reports that come out of these trials it's a bit biased because the there's a kind of Some sort of process of self self-selection of the companies involved They tend to be small With younger people and so on. So it's kind of there's a predisposition. Let's say for this to be successful in a way Whatever Whatever happens is that we need to to to to check and to see if this is applicable to Because I suspect this is not applicable in many sectors in many circumstances So it might be applicable in some in some areas of our economies, but not certainly not to to everyone We are going to carry out in principle Pilot project looking at this. So we will look specifically at some case studies as well some company situations to see how far this You know worked well and what are the challenges and benefits of such a model from a research point of view What is concerning for me is the type of model that is applicable because as Deirdre mentioned It's a the matter of quality and quality type of discussion, right because if you are Given 32 hours and you are requested to do the same things that you were doing before in 40 That might be an impossibility. So this means that your work intensity increase And as I mentioned before work intensity is one of those things that have a negative impact on your health So in terms of sustainability, that doesn't work If if you're asked to do the same things In this in a smaller amount of time. So the pressure is on that doesn't work if it's a reduction of of Hours accompanied by a reduction of the amount of things that you have to do then that can that can work. Yeah, that sounds good actually and There's real interest in in this discussion. There's a very Significant number of questions, which is indicative. I think of both the importance of this topic But also the great presentations from the speaker. So maybe we should do this again in a little while I'm going to try and get to as many of these as I can. I'm going to start with I'm going to put two questions together If I can find them here one is from Joshua and then the other one is from Shane. So Joshua, hello, nice to have you here Joshua How do we ensure that the advancement of AI And the consequential increase in productivity benefits all does not further increase this the expanding wealth gap It seems to me that we could easily end up with widespread unemployment That's from Joshua. You can By all means you can you can acknowledge in sidestep any of these questions if you wish in the last couple of minutes But if you have something to say about the kind of benefits of AI and how they're distributed, please do then another question from shameless allen who is our and digital researcher here at the institute the question he put in regarding and workplace surveillance Can you comment on the use of surveillance technologies again? Please sidestep this if you have nothing to say But surveillance technologies in the workplace and how this should be regulated Do you kind of check your questions? I'll start with you Deirdre given your experience in AI Thanks Deirdre. Yeah, and Joshua The advancement of AI. Yeah, this question is asked a lot. What does it mean for jobs? And Then one of the counteracted arguments is that where we've seen the Industrial evolution would be totally advancements of technology and digitalization that jobs would change and that haven't hasn't to that that effect and The productivity your productivity is going to improve I don't know about about your point about the income income gap widening but I do think That it's a point I made me that skills are going to be very important and upskilling and re-skilling is very important because If you can't just we can't have people just are just throwing our hands in the air and saying all those jobs are gone That's it. Let's um, let's just support those people in social web or whatever We have to really work with them because they needed their productivity their input will be needed. So I can't I can't and no, I don't think anybody can answer definitively where vera is going to take us other than It's it's going to be here to stay and we need to manage it as regards workplace surveillance Yeah, we've had the discussion chimps in our in our negotiations on this on this file We do have major companies coming to say to you say for instance large warehouses that they need surveillance to make sure that The employers are okay and that they're not um, you know that they don't Follow hit their head whatever. Uh, I don't know but I do think it has to be done that if you're employing somebody Would you say look you're going into an area that does have this surveillance? I think we need that's it. That's where the legislation is looking at now that you would Inform people and tell them this is this. This is what we have here. It's there for there for your protection as much as it is for others that are fear fear co-workers So transparency and informing people is the way forward there George any views Well, in relation to the last point on surveillance, I have little to say I know that some some of my colleagues are are actually looking into this and we will have a couple of projects In the next four year program period. So it's between 25 and 28 20 25 and 20 28 So this is something that we will certainly have a look at in term from a research point of view There was some work on on the ethics, uh, of of, you know, digitalization and This processes of monitoring and surveillance and so on And there's a report about that if you're interested I can certainly circulate that and people can have a look at some of the legislation already available in some of the member states around these things Um, and then I will have a go at the the wealth distribution associated with AI To say that perhaps the way of looking at this is through the value of work, right? So there are many, uh, Occupations and jobs which will be required in the future and I'm thinking about health and care Those jobs in principle great deal of those jobs cannot be substituted by AI Um, there's always a human aspect, uh element to it. So it's a matter of, um, how do we value our work and Therefore our work is rewarded from a monetary point of view And then I think the other way of looking at it is through the fiscal policy. So And put in perspective the type of income tax that we have versus the corporate tax because if there's income which is produced with no use of, uh, Humans so, uh, with no use of a workforce Then perhaps that kind of income should be taxed in a different way because it's produced in a different way. So, uh, basically, I'm kind of hinting here that perhaps Uh, everything that is produced with the with the use of you know, human power Some extent should be Taxed differently and valued differently than it perhaps is at the moment It's normal George. Thank you. We're gonna say something later No, I've just seen that an interesting approach, but I absolutely agree that health care In areas such as that that they cannot be replaced by AI. So, um, and of course AI will always have to be used Not always, but it must be used with the human over human oversight as well So when you use use AI in conjunction With work, that's important and the understanding of that and be able to Literacy and be able to interact would be important in terms of the skills requirement Certainly. Thank you. I didn't even get to come back to you George on the questions that myself and others had had about remote work So perhaps that's that's a signal that we should do something again and indeed an artificial sorry on workplace surveillance Uh, it'll be it'll be great to kind of regroup and in the future to discuss some of the really important and pressing issues that have been raised here because As I said, there's been a huge amount of interest in what you've said I apologize to kevin mp who had a question on esg And gaelith is gerald's who who had a remark about unpaid labor I'll pass on the details of both remarks to the speaker so that so they know what what you have people thinking about But it's been really really enjoyable. I just want to thank our two speakers deodor clune and george cabrita for really stimulating Stimulating discussion. I'll be thinking about for the rest of the day in the week I think and also just just to acknowledge patrick o'reard and colleagues at the european parliament liaison office with his partnership and for for kind of coming up with this idea to Organize the organize these webinars in conjunction this year in astrea. They've been really enjoyable and I think then each occasion There's been a really rich and important discussion and as we need up to the european parliament elections that i'm sure are on deodor's and other minds Over the next couple of months these sorts of discussions only become more and more important So just want to thank our speakers. Thank patrick o'reard and colleagues at the european parliament liaison office Then marshal from my team for organizing this and other colleagues and most importantly those at home who listened and who contributed so Um, so keenly to the discussion. So thanks everybody for your time and look forward to doing this again Okay, thank you very All right. Thank you. Thanks so much