 I think it's time for the next talk. Don't get confused by this German slide. It's in English, so Stay in here. Come come to the front before joining over to Andy who will talk about survival survival industry and About a bug tracker about it Maybe I will please you to take your trash with you if you leave the room So and now please welcome Andy To explain an English disconfusion here. This is the letterhead of the Papers that were coming from the raid of the Egyptian Ministry of State Security and All these letterheads have this in the name of Allah the Almighty then it continues with investigations the state security Branch of information technology group electronic surveillance department for hacking Originally, I wanted to have this thing this to have people singing it, you know in the name of Allah the Almighty Department for hacking but Egyptian people I talked to said it's blasphemy. So, okay, I Want to introduce Buck planet. I think this light needs to be switched off to probably view those lights from the beamer Light Technology, hello. All right Basic principles what I'm gonna talk about is the surveillance industry governments and the countries of this planet the country alright That's what happens if you write your floats too late was violence industry is Quite an industry like others they invest into products and to development They market this they market of course first to those customers which are most easy to approach Of course with this type of technology surveillance Listening to phone calls Bugging people's computers and so on. This is a very macho realistic way of marketing It's like oh may we help you to suppress your citizens a little bit more efficient way Governments on the other hand side are often ruled by control freaks just by nature because they are working for administration of a governments and Their job is in a way to keep the system in a controlled fashion So while some of them do simulate democracy the intelligence sector often due to is secrecy Surroundings is very limited involved in the democratic process because These people are not working within a controlled framework. I mean in theory. Yes in practice There's lots of gaps between what people know and what people don't know To ensure freedom of communication and thinking and acting for citizens and so on I think it's very important to limit this industry And to get a little bit more aware of what's happening even if I have one more typo in here Actually the point is that some of these technologies are going to talk about our market to Countries which are not very democratic Still they are market under names like lawful interception, which is very true in some countries lawful interception means there is a Basic human rights principle. There's a court There's like a constitutional chapter on secrecy on privacy and in other countries The law is a single person and if that single person says I don't trust anybody here I want to like have everybody's phone calls on record That too is lawful interception It's just a different law the basic concept of Buck planet is just a public wiki for the collection of information on this thing like Industry on the communications surveillance technology on the companies including all the information That we managed to get about ownership of these companies Turn around so their financial figures the persons involved in this where I don't have really an answer But I do have the question how much privacy deserve people who make themselves as a living business concept to Invade the privacy of whole nations of thousands of millions of people The products and services offered by these Companies and run by the country so we will also look at specific countries and the wiki has a page For each country where I'm trying to nail down which vendors appeared with what technology and so on Also the global installations for signal intelligence communication intelligence So that's the boys game that the old boys name game of the national security agency and so on So those collecting communication intelligence data For a long time and do it globally If we talk about surveillance technology, it is very important to distinguish between the tactical level and tactical instruments and The strategic level Tactical means that these tools are to be used at Hawk. That's like What we call tactical interception instrument for example is what others call a buck So a small thing that records what's spoken in the room or maybe you have tactical gsm Interception that is a machine that is just doing semi passive how they call it Interception so there's no network involved. There's no structural backbone of maybe Legal processes and so on involved. It's just a tool that you can use to do something Well, the strategic level is What is applied to whole country as a concept? So if companies advertise strategic interception this means Intercept record monitor all communication of the whole country. So this is like Total different game, but I'm coming to other examples of what this means So let us look for a moment at tactical instruments I just have here some like the rough scope of what we have now seen also in the spy files by WikiLeaks and others There's like low noise drilling machines, which I will come to in a second lockpicking tools tactical inception devices covered audio video tracking so that means location positioning systems Transmission recording devices so our lands man's cars motorcycles and so on so What the hell is a low noise drilling machine doing here? This machine is a tactical instrument to drill holes in walls very silent very slow and You get this in a suitcase you open the suitcase you put it next to your wall that drills and noise The very low noise Hole in it and then you can it stops automatically before the wall paper at the other side of the wall and you can put a fiber Optic instrument through this or an electronic box. So this is used to Intercept noise from the door next to you from the room next to you Here is the optical microphone used for this this can be used as you see up to one kilometer So the beauty of using an optical microphone is you can't detect it with anything searching for electronics So this can be used to be brought into a building through the sanitary installations meaning the toilets and It just gets a little bit over the water surface and you can search the whole building for electronics Nothing is there and just a kilometer away Someone is intercepting you by the small membrane vibrating and there's through a laser beam going through the optical cable and Watching the vibration of this membrane Other interesting tactical instruments is for example a government key copying system where Finally, we know why they need CCTV everywhere This is a machinery capable of copying keys just from an image from a key So whenever you enter room where the camera is in Place and you put your key Collection on a table to maybe do something whatever This is enough to copy your keys and then enter your home. How nice other tactical instruments are You know this you can guess is something sounding something I just found the names are nice to informant So this is also by the way Often in criminal investigations the case that sometimes a witness appears or is mentioned to have brought some kind of Information where this witness does not exist as a natural person It's technical means but they are not disclosing the fact that technical means have been used So they call it informant so-and-so Was bringing in some information This is also a tactical instrument a very nice one so to say This is a body one array microphone as you can read It's a kind of a jacket with 24 microphones built in so this guy can sit With this type of jacket at the other side of a restaurant turning his back to you They record 24 channels simultaneously Digitally and then afterwards can browse through the room who was speaking in which corner about what? but just Separating the Chitnals the signals and the stuff coming from it So you get a roughly idea and also it's very obviously if you look at this type of Presentation the interrogation room kit. No, it didn't say torture. It just said cover camera Making video footage or creating video footage of an interrogation This obviously does not sound exactly like what we're used in democratic states to have a Intergration with a hidden camera So it's quite obvious to whom this technology is maybe in this case market To get you the other side what we talked when we talk about strategic instruments as I said the So-called strategic telecommunication interception also market as so-called massive interception That's the term the French company amazes for example used Means a total recording and storage of all telecommunication of the country Also stuff like infection proxies which come a little later and the whole set of monitoring Intelligent analytics platforms with speech recognition profiling pattern recognition and so on so if you look this is a part of marketing Presentation from a South African company called fast stick And they say like the new approach is not you target someone or some people and you intercept them You just capture all You have an intermediate storage your filter and then you end up at a long-term storage This has to do with bandwidth reason it doesn't means they lose any calls in the long-term storage It just means they reduce it to a bandwidth which is more cheaper to store and So you can later add new targets. You say well someone I didn't Care about the last three years now has become a prime suspect in whatever doing political protest organization or whatever Now we want to grab his phone calls and the information whom he was calling to and who was in contact with last Three years, and then you just add this as a new target and get it from the long-term storage So I made a Small sample calculation just to get over this little Skeptical point in everyone of us wait a second. You're talking about recording the whole telecommunication of the whole country over years Yes, this is what we're talking about the German regulatory Authority also for telecommunication Has published the statistics for 2010 quite some months ago That was 196.4 billion minutes of plain symbol telephone network calls. So that includes ISDN in this case They have said it was 101 Billion minutes of GSM was a data volume of 65 million gigabyte and a data volume of 3.2 billion gigabyte in broken network So if we look at the presentation of the total storage solution system Here is like the summary of which codex to use so which bit rate samples to use and What they say is that 8 kilobit per second is providing acceptable quality for most intelligence applications. That means speaker recognition So identifying who was speaking what he was speaking and getting also what they call The breeze rhythm. So if someone is excited you can read his emotional pattern So he's involved his emotional involvement from just the breathing frequency while he speaks So if it if he really doesn't care about what he's saying or if he's personally like touched or involved or something So when you make this calculation with a 196.4 billion minutes in the Landline phone network of Germany for 2010 you make it with 8 kilobit per second. You end up with 11.784 Terabyte and then if we add some overhead like call parameters who was calling whom at what time and synchronization and so on That's roughly 15 terabytes. So what does this cost us if you just Google on the internet What cost me a petabyte storage? This is like the new shit out there ZFS file system All included 42 you rec you get it for 495 thousand dollar and you might get a discount if you buy a little more. So let's take these figures if we want 15 petabyte We take 80,000 euro roughly per petabyte. That means we're talking 5.7 million euro What is that compared to the budget of bonus nachi deans of foreign intelligence or to the military? That's like nothing and even if you say, okay You need some money for installation for the personnel for the energy maybe for the bribery to get the excess to the fiber optics and so on If you're not the government, but if you're a private mafia organization Then you end up maybe with 20 30 million euro. So that's totally affordable if you compare to government buildings or aircraft carriers or weapons or what what other toys governments buy that's quite doable In private enterprise point of view, okay, that's subject to return of invest calculations So if you're bugging a country due to interest in their oil industry or whatever in specific Contracts dealings tenders that might make sense as well so It's being done. It's Probably done in many also European countries for quite some time now You might want to have a look at the companies providing this is all their technical specifications out there We haven't Gotten their financial figures yet. So how many installations they sold we know some of them But you might want to analyze this for your own country Another interesting strategic approach is quite I would say new one It's called infection proxies That's part of this Finfisher thing Finfisher is Like a whole family of products provided by Gamma and element to companies who are marketing front-end for a lot of products from other companies The specific component infection proxy which in their language is called Finfly ISP You will find and the WikiLeaks release as of the advertisement video that Explains this on a dummy level is a tool to Which is here roughly explained So what you can do is you can either put it to your on this on the tactical side You can put it inside an ISP to specific targets So you could say you just want a few people or the strategic level you put it where your ISP is connected to other countries This is the way it was done. Obviously in Oman and possibly in Turkmenistan Where the government had the idea that they wanted to infect so meaning install trojans to all computers that have connections with non national Other networks and use systems like Skype or whatever So this is large-scale and scalable Torian Horace installation so to say While element and Gamma Are more or less well-known companies With element is German Swiss company Gamma is a German British and also Lebanese They have at least an office there company dream lap so far was not known to be involved in this. They are more or less Security expert Hacker style run company in Switzerland Which we're known to be involved in lawful interception That's the normal stuff that ISP's intercourse need to provide to governments to allow tapping on request But there's a whole bunch of other Yeah companies connected to this game and dream that seems to be involved in the Development of this which brings me which brings me to an important issue And that's the complexity of the company structures if and that's what I'm trying to do with this wiki analyze How they are connected together So a journalist friend of mine who will hopefully forgive me that I disclosed this year But it will not be in the presentation. I'm handing out Try to get an idea about the three like main prisons. That's Lucen Alexander Nielsen Rumscheidt the guy called Eugen Fusso which companies they are Involved into and who is connected in which way from an analyst notebook quite a few that's like intelligent software that's used by the police and by investigators to try to find Connections between companies and people it looks roughly like this What we can I will explain it a little bit more in detail the results, but the the complexity comes from different Games these companies planes for example gamma is a company that exists as gamma International Deutras or international GMB are registered in Germany it regists also as gamma international in the UK So the same company name in two different countries and what has happened is when the first journalist reported that gamma international GMB are so the German one was involved in this and that they got sued The company said no we didn't do that which is technically correct because one of their Seven other companies or however it ever are that is named gamma international has done this So they are playing shadow games. It's putting the same company name in different countries Also what we are seeing as shareholders of companies are sometimes cross-connected and sub iterate jurisdictions so what we saw for example is that Elamann is a German Registered company. It's also a Swiss registered company and the Swiss registered company We have the main shareholder from gamma also being one of the shareholders there But again, you need to be very carefully if you publicly as a journalist or whatever write about this to keep this legal fine structure clear What is a big problem is of course if for example in the case of trovee core trovee core is the former A part of what once was a Siemens department called voice and data recording that got sold to Siemens Nokia networks and Then got again separated because Siemens sold this lawful and deception stuff to Iran the Iranian government used it to Identify people from protest get them from the street tortured imprisoned and so on So what they did was saying okay Siemens made a public statement that they don't want to be involved in this Technology anymore because it brings reputation issues and so on so they put it in a company called trovee core Trovee core is owned by a private equity fund. It's called peruza. Peruza is a German Has a German administration office in Munich But it's registered in Jersey And girls a somewhere that is British crown Private on a ship. It's not British Not United Kingdom And it's hard if not impossible to find out who really owns Trovee core which is many journals Are following this at the moment What we often see in this Yeah Industry is that they're separate companies for development and for marketing So some of these Marketing companies like element gamma. They have huge catalogs. You will see the element catalogs in this by far So I maybe have seen it. It's like hundreds of pages of tactical strategic all kinds of instruments But it doesn't mean that they all produce it if they produce anything at all Maybe they just produce catalogs and all these small companies Producing the real technology are a bit more hard to find and in the case of Fin Fisher It was more or less Yeah, it was work of German television to find out at all who was developing it So again an example William loosen using Interestingly a guy having most of the names his son has as well, but his son is called loosen No, he's called to news and loosen Alexander Nielsen So this guy is about 80 years old now. He is like only the father of the main player But this is his appointments in different companies and what we see here is gamma TSE limited gamma 2000 waste management limited where you think and wait a second What are these guys doing? Are they running? Maybe the recycle bin in my windows computer or are they maybe a providing Paper trash service for governments, which happens also in Germany that the intelligence if they are interested in someone They replace the normal paper recycling car are coming and collecting your paper trash with a government one Which looks the same? They will take all your trash Separately and we'll scan it in and look on what they can learn from you. This happens But there's also companies like G2 systems limited gamma TSE unlimited gamma international limited and Fin Fisher limited so clearly a nice collection of company positions and so This again is what I'm trying to do in the wiki to get really who is connected in which way and that is Yeah, not the most easy thing There is some policy issues Which become important because at the end of the day, we're not talking about Companies as abstract things. We're talking about people persons human beings involved in Actings and they use this complex instruments of different companies to hide Also So there is people who are clear-cut involved. There's like CEO shareholders Registered signing rights people. So what is in Germany a prokourist? whatever Then there's people who have at least missing deniability of being involved like Involved in marketing Appearing on the ISS conference. That's this intelligent support systems conferences Doing promotions and so on and then there is those behind the scenes the developers the exploit researchers the security experts who provide the knowledge to develop these tools and Well, here we come right where we are here Because the hacker scene has become a very important area for this people as information can be gathered very effectively From the computers from the telephones from the PDA since one of the people out there So the hacker scene has become a key area of phishing for information Through hired spices of what call it so people in the scene who work as consultants or whatever to these type of companies To keep updated on technical trends. We have of course seen them here in the Congress for many years To identify and hire those who are likely to accept specific offers. So this is about analyzing persons Who maybe don't have so strong political opinions, but to have great technical knowledge and maybe need a job and so on and activities to do get this Approach who follow this approach is Includes it's not limited to sponsoring conferences parties around conferences Including free drinks generous service. So maybe you have also seen some conferences Which were sponsored and you didn't had to pay something and all the food was nice and you found very interesting people to talk to and Some of these companies also simulate hacker culture, you know, they study here at the Congress What you know that it needs to be club matter offered and not coke and They all don't wear tires because that would bring away the hackers They just dress casual and and then young people come with technical knowledge and think oh, this must be a hacker company right so this must be nice people and Here you are So and there is hidden agenda and this operations these companies run go up to the level of information warfare So examples I talked about dream lap a little bit. You can this is just a small except from the wiki about the involvement of this company So with this thing with Oman and took me is done and the involvement in Fin fly SP so the infection proxy and then you have conferences Which are regularly taking place in Switzerland called the zero sec Organized by dream lap and you know, it's all all nice there free drinks buffet nice food hacker Events people who are also speaking at CCC conferences Speaking there maybe knowing maybe not knowing what they're doing there and so bringing the taste of the hacker community To a company that from my point of view is engaged in very pure evil Also on the ISS which is a clear conference for this market Just recently this year is December 2011 7th, so that is like 20 days ago We had in the track for law enforcement interior security and the intelligence community So this is the closed track of that conference with only for the governmental people We have a cast knoll from the security research labs in Berlin Talking about GSM and Jeeper as defense friends. Oh, how nice and he will speak just about 30 minutes from now on in Room number one upstairs about defending mobile phones So here's my question. Yeah, it's the enemy line here. Is this the enemy line that we are talking about with this 28c3 with this behind enemy line. Maybe it's right there so, um, I Mean what I can just say if you're behind these enemy lines get the fuck out of there and Please bring some data with you as we want As You will see there is quite a collection already, but we need more we need evidence We need more of those companies. We are not aware about Involved in development and so on so feel free to contribute The whole idea is this is to get like more people involved Decentrally to look what are the companies maybe visit them or so Let them know that we have an eye on them identify the people working there might make nice pictures Ask them about if they feel something for privacy if it comes maybe to their own privacy So trigger them. Let's find out How they feel about this I think it's very fair to address the people involved in this kind of stuff So look where they're traveling to Identify their that's by the way what we have been doing for months now with a bunch of journalists like trying to find out Who's traveling where to find out where other customers and where are possible people to talk to to get trunk contracts and stuff? Of course, it's very important to identify the legal framework. We have been talking about The idea of banning surveillance technology the same way encryption technology is banned indeed Encryption technology said to protect from surveillance of telecommunication cannot be freely sold on this planet There's the vase in our conference and that's agreements because this is so-called dual use goods Which can be used in the civil or in the military way But if you're selling surveillance technology interestingly, there's no export controls so you can sell whatever you like There was a try from the Green European Party to get this restricted as well but that was refused due to economic reasons and This could have to do with the fact that some of the persons involved have at least previous governmental Obligations, maybe also some of these companies are not companies. Maybe this is just private branches of intelligence agencies who try to get into other countries And this is of course a very comfortable way to get hired for surveillance And then you get the data and also a little bit of money and you know who's the guys running the shop and so on So there is a lot more to be explored. Yeah. Well, that was roughly it. I mean, I could now go into Explaining but I guess you can do that yourself What what you will find in the wiki so There's a categorization so that you can go category persons you will see there's already some people in there About 205 at the moment. So and then if you look at people you will see Whatever we know about them where they are born Date of birth is always very important if you're researching people Because you might find people with the same name and you need to distinguish them Where they have been appeared where they've previously been working and so on. So the idea is to Yeah, make these people trackable and Get the whole discussion also to level where you can look in a country If you look at Syria, for example that you see, okay, who's the ISPs who's in place in which companies appeared? we have tracked down about Five companies in Syria at the moment with different With all the articles and so on so to create this is not an intelligence operation. This is pure public service Follow public domain so to be able to track down and of course all the companies then are here linked with the articles And you can get to the companies and where they are and which people are there and What we know about them and what kind of information we have about them and so on So what I'm trying very hard to do is to distinguish Between what we really know about a company and what we maybe know but can prove because everything of this will be If it comes hard to hard subject to legal a battle So the idea is to distinguish and put everything which we can prove for will the father moment in a section called Unconfirmed rumors to say well, you know, we've heard this we can prove it. Maybe it's true Let's look for some evidence But don't pretend to know stuff that we don't know because that can be very dangerous I guess the day will come that these companies will You know send their army of lawyers and look what is bulletproof and whatnot? Well, that was roughly the presentation Maybe there is some more questions now From the audience or maybe someone has better ideas and what to do with the people involved or Yeah, okay, we got people microphones coming right away. Thank you Just wanted to ask if you could put on the slide with your drop points again With your drop targets again the slide Which one yeah, this one. Thank you. Okay. Yeah Points of contact Is it a full-time job for you? Next to that I'm a little bit member of the board of the CCC and running a company and doing other stuff now This is like my hobby But I found it very satisfying because there's so much work to do and it's like you can put all your energy Into such a wiki to you know collect the prisons I'm doing I mean most of the research and that what I would also if if you guys want to help support Or just want to research yourself use tour use anonymizes don't leave too much faces about yourself Take care of what's called operational security Because we are playing here with people who are Experts in targeting and in collecting intelligence about people So there's a bit of security measures No, this is not a full-time job, but I do spend maybe some hours per day on Playing around with this and putting some energy that Just comes when I look at this shit Into something useful Very possible danger that the companies and people you're targeting might try to Inject wrong or misleading data into your wiki. How do you? Yeah, well the point is that this is not an open wiki at the moment I just accept this some people helping was putting stuff in but exactly because of this We are like it's not an open wiki because that might be a problem. I mean next to back up and so on The information needs to be accurate and that's why we are collecting and Whatever we can confirm goes into the section of the page called unconfirmed rumors But indeed what you will find here is most of the stuff is quite public what I have been doing There's like some great tools if we for example look at this company who provided the Trojans for the German government As public information you can get their registered Documents from the European It's called Yeah, in this case it's electronic bonus and talk about the European company database for Financial turnovers, it's a European law that all European companies need to put their financial turnovers into a database once a year So we can see how much money they make Per year. There's also what is very nice There's a European tender database Where you can see who has bought stuff because public If you see here for example, that's the customs police That they need to make a tender to buy surveillance systems And so they need to put a rough description of what they have done and who has got the job and what was the Total amount of it. This is a two million Installation for German customers going to the company Digitask The tech dot Europe dot EU is by the way available in all languages that In Europe are What you call it in the European member states are there trouble is You will only find the full document with all the specifications in the national language of those Entity who were submitting the book documents say most of the time only give a very rough translation Where many facts are missing? But still you can look for a keyword and for example We found with a keyword in the catcher we found Here in the catcher Procurements of the in this case Bavarian police which we had indeed not been known about so this is 3g Units so two units of 3g in the catches for about 400,000 euro. Hey, that's quite cheap by the way So with the right keywords tap dot Europe dot EU is a very nice toy You just need to look so you can either look for the companies Which is sometimes hard work or you can look for the keywords. So we have identified quite some business activity with this toy and This is I mean, that's the point. Okay, the point is this is public information. I don't disclose here any secrets or whatever I'm just we're just trying to collect and give it this as a place for Journalists also if they're researching company to help them a little bit with Collecting public information and of course, I mean if WikiLeaks like this here in this case They also brought from Copham. That's a British company providing emcee catches if Material brochures and so on Ends up with WikiLeaks, that's of course helpful to put a link down because then it's Published already Yeah, maybe some more. I see a hand there you get a microphone Actually over here Have you have you noticed any companies as they've been put under closer scrutiny? I guess How they reacted and are you do you have any measures or ideas about how to? Deal with them adapting their corporate structures in a more complicated fashion to kind of obfuscate their relationships with these unsavorable entities Well in the case of gamma It all started with this raid the Egyptian Ministry of State Security and we got the whole Company structure from gamma and also the names of the people involved in so on and journalists where indeed researching them there is cases of Criminal Careers of at least one person involved for bribery an African country, which is also a very interesting field But indeed when we came to the German company German gamma we have a guy called Martin Munich and people people have identified his home address and this is just like from some other web forums where these people have been discussed and Then journalists try to reach this gentleman for a comment and so on he refused and his partner was Talking with the journalists, but then refusing an interview they sent them They hired some lawyers and the lawyer sent letters that if you will write anything about this company we will you know Whatever deal with you Nothing has happened, but what we know is that these people have changed their living address. They moved somewhere else They became a little bit feeling unease of the public discussion of their private details Which I think is very fair if you look at what they have been doing as living with other peoples But yes, I think This is a way to make these people think about privacy and I don't see many other ways As they refuse to participate in the public dialogue, so That would be the alternative maybe So but yes, this will be very interesting to see but I mean Gamma is already a company living in a very complex structure if you try to find out where Losing John Alexander lives Like in some of his companies he's and for the German tax He's living in the United Kingdom and some of his British companies then he's living in Lebanon So I'm not sure at the German tax company or a tax office Will send someone to Lebanon of the British will do might be that there is some tax reasons here for the complexity Then actually we have his former Company has been working for a very well-known German company called PK electronics with lots of stuff. So Gamma is The At least the most complex company structure I've seen so far But it will be interesting to see on how they maybe will change to disappear again from the surface That's subject of the experience So let's see But I mean at the end of the day these guys want to make business, okay? And so that's where we get them they advertise they are in contact. They use distributors But still they want to make money So and if they want to make money they need to be Findable somewhere Have you ever Felt that these companies are trying to suppress you for not doing your work for not Opening this information I'm not sure I got your question right you mean that they pressure me for yes For not opening their information To not get it right you mean or to not Collect this information No, not yet. Not yet. I guess I guess they will I will the day will come I will get very interesting letters. I just got some Emails, but they were so ridiculous that I simply ignore them like I don't want to be in your wiki The company is dissolved. I'm no more doing this but you know Bring up some arguments so By the way, and this is also an Interesting case the gentleman The gentleman Mr. Yule who wrote me an interesting email the other day I was in a company called gts Which could be no more exist looks like it There have been a German company Distributing some very interesting technology for example, they have been the exclusive distributor for a fast-tech and also for The net witness which is Sensor ship stuff. So as I said fast-tech This company only has one product that's for a tragic telecommunication Interception so it's very interesting alone the fact that a German company is their Disributor it means there must be a customer Otherwise, they wouldn't have a distributor or at least someone trying to market their stuff So a fast-tech is really worth studying and if here's someone from South Africa Would love to get more from their official records tax payments and so on we need to know more about these guys here They will Teach us or their records will teach us in which countries we have this strategic telecommunications communications installations Interception installations Okay, we have one question from the signal angels Yeah, so the IRC is concerned about your wiki in and wants to know whether you run a mirror or a backup because And someone also was also curious whether you have like a list of the bad guys So where you we list them so you don't have to go to any person and there's this thing called category persons and here you go Thanks, right Yeah, of course I run daily backups and I mean there's nothing secret and this wiki they can hack it of course Can be deleted every day and so on it's just a media wicket But I'm keeping daily backup. So that should be okay to detect whatever has happened There are more questions Excuse me, what was this tribe core company again tribe a core V-core, sorry, it's Trophy core And they and you want to look at the there if you look at their ownership You need to look for that somewhere here For Pivuza Yeah, this one. That's the private equity fund officially owning it With Guernsey Registration or whatever Doing all kinds of nice stuff With confirmed activities in Iran Bahrain and Syria All very nice democratic countries respecting human rights Almost Okay, so it says he missed no more questions. I would like you to thank him for this great talk Have a nice evening