 And feel free to, if you want to look at the camera anymore, whatever, feel free to. Alright, cool. Her whole downstairs is in her house. Right. She's also been made. That's really impressive. So she's like so short. She's like some kind of binding agent. All I know is that she really loves and you know. Oh dear. Alright, I'm just gonna sit here for now. More people come and I'll stand up and do more stuff. I don't know any of you, but I know what you are or what you do. So I'd love to see you. Sorry, you're gonna have to see the back of my head. I don't even know if there's anyone there, but we'll see you in a minute. Yeah, can you just introduce yourselves and what you do and why I'm just gonna just come here and I'll be great. So my name is Andrews and I work on a third-party video installation for biological diagrams. Help me get pathways. I am a designer of the reading team. I work on and actually Andrew is one of the issues. He's trying to increase micro-contribution features. So we're currently out there at the moment testing out the reading of our pieces at Android App. This is at the sub-title from the data distribution to articles. So the data is all through the app and that's kind of one of the ways in which we're trying to convert ingredients into samples. I'm sure. Basically, I'm going to introduce you to her, but I don't think I can do that. I don't think so. I'm going to go out and see you soon. And what people's about to watch. I'm Neil Coyne. I'm there in my son year new team. We wanted to steal all the videos we made for May. So it's the point now. I have one request. If one person would be willing to monitor, I'll see. If someone can down-notice, that'd be great. It'd be a request from the remotees. I can do that. Yeah, that'd be cool. You can do it by thinking of it. You do it? Okay. You can do it. Okay. Sorry? It'd be the timekeeper review. Yeah, that'd be great. We have until... Supposedly up until 2.40. Whether we use all that time. Yeah. There's the purple car. Who's the remote worker? So, yeah, one of the reasons why I'm here is because... Before my current role, I used to be working with the fundraising team actually doing a battle work. And I was always an idea as part of fundraising that there would be some sort of editor engagement campaign. Unfortunately, it never happened partly because of time, partly because of resources. And also because there wasn't the infrastructure in place on Wiki to actually be able to support that kind of campaign. It's all very well and good. Asking people to edit, but if you don't have the resources and infrastructure behind that to actually take someone and have them move through the learning process in terms of becoming an editor, there's no point in actually doing that. And so, when I came back onto the staff in last January one of the things I really wanted to do was to actually be able to try and push forward in being able to have that active recruitment of readers in becoming editors. One of the main difficulties is that in terms of the resources that exist on Wiki at the moment most of our health pages consist of large pages of block text which are values inaccessible as you can possibly get in terms of a health page. And so, as well as having the proper resources on Wiki I also wanted to kind of look into how we can actually in terms of development actually support a reader through that process. And so, one of the few things that I really wanted to achieve is the understanding that every person who is an editor now was at some point a reader because it's the only way you can discover the projects. And so, there is what I like to describe as a continuum in terms of being an editor and becoming an editor to becoming an old and bitter member of the community that I now see myself as and how we can help that person progress in that discovery and at each stage being able to provide them the necessary resources and necessary tools and support whether automated or by individuals. And so, what I'm hoping is that going forward not just in the short term but over the long term there is a higher level of collaboration particularly between the reading and editing teams in being able to support that continuum as people progress through. It also means that it will actually enable other teams to actually do active recruitment. There is always this hesitancy when it comes to active recruitment of editors that we will flood the community with, you know, disruptive edits, disruptive people and then you actually end up harming the very community that you're trying to support and grow. And so, what I wanted to do was to try and ensure that when we go to the community and propose we'd like to recruit an X number of editors or grow your community by X amount that rather than fear and trepidation there is, you know, positivity around the idea and that there is an understanding that this is something that will be successful rather than being instructive to the project. And so, kind of what I wanted to do was to try and firstly I think that as an organisation there's a movement we need to get a better understanding of this flow as someone passes from step to step to step. And also to understand at each stage what is the threshold to becoming, you know, a proto editor, a new editor, someone who's very competent at editing. How does someone become a member of the community? Now some of these were looked at particularly the latter stages in terms of the editor engagement experiments that we've done several years ago. A lot of them stopped that, however, at actually transitioning someone from being a reader to becoming an editor. In fact, actually if you look at their page it is the one item that was never looked at, was never reached. And so that's what I'm hoping that we'll be able to kind of at least talk through, discuss what people feel are the issues, what are the tools that we need further down the line and whether there is the potential for work, energy and effort actually being put into this going forward. So yeah, I mean, this is kind of what I came up with basically it is someone on the planet who doesn't even know who we are, doesn't even know who we exist. They find a link whether on social media or they come across us on Google or whatever and they discover our projects and suddenly they're now a reader. At some point that person will realise that you can edit and on the previous slide I mentioned that 50% of our readers don't realise that we are actually a project that you can actually edit yourself. And it's a lack of understanding, it's a lack of education that's entered our readership. 20% of our readers don't even know that we're a nonprofit which means that we're doing really badly considering how much that we flood pages with fundraising banners, et cetera, et cetera. And so the first step is that there needs to be better education of our readers about how we do that, how do we tell our story of who we are and what we're all about. And obviously after the reader understands they discover the edit button and they get to the page. And this is where they will either blank the page, decide that President Obama was X or Y or just simply, it's fine, it's not really worth that on their end. Or to suddenly write that the population of San Francisco is one. Because they're experimenting, they're trying to see how the change that they make within that window suddenly become reflected in the real world because that's how most people start discovering that wow, I've actually changed things and suddenly realise that the actions that take place on this almost seemingly disparate page particularly prior to the visual effect it's slightly different in that when people are making changes they're making changes to an almost finished problem. Beforehand they did. And then obviously when they realise that changes can be made and are reflected in the real world suddenly they will either stop doing that or they will go forward and make more changes and hopefully over time as they become more and more competent and more and more satisfied by the changes they made they've actually become a member of the community and then they stick around and they don't leave. And so what I want to know is what people's opinions are about one of the difficulties at these stages what we already know about people's behaviours as they're trying to transition from one to the other and what can we do to support that and what do we need to do to be able to support that. And from this point onwards I'm going to, yeah I'm going to turn into a conversation and I'd like to see what people's thoughts are what people's opinions are what are your opinions of what we're already doing Are there any significant differences between this topic and another topic which I know has been in the subject of many discussions over many years how do we gain more in that? Because I guess you're saying which is true that all our competitors come from people who are leaders and not saying that this is a battle but this just seems like a restatement of that same issue. I think it is, yeah I'm in no shame with it so I think that we put a lot of effort into supporting our active community and we put a lot of effort in supporting the reader experience but at the moment there is a gap in terms of supporting that transition from one to the other the visual editors support people who are discovering that editing ability but on the very basis that 50% of people don't even know that they could how do we go about actively supporting those people in their discovery of being able to contribute? Some of the gap is non-technical so for example I mentioned that we have help pages that are essentially encyclopedic entries they consist of hundreds of thousands of words that is in no way contributing to people actually coming bored except the very people who like to read thousands of words about how to do one action and so there is a lot of work that can be done by non-technical individuals however it requires a degree of technical contribution from the foundation in being able to support the actions that contribute to someone being able to do something for example having you know and I mentioned it in an earlier session if someone is trying to add a reference or someone is adding something that isn't reference because for the most likelihood if they've only got one or two edits they don't know how to add a reference there should be subtle and useful interventions in that process that allows someone to progress to the next step that allows someone to gain a piece of knowledge and to be able to be successful without having their wrists slapped and I think that this like I'm not coming from this from the angle of trying to halt the edited client or trying to reverse it trying to expand the community by ex-members this is simply supporting an experience that users are already having that is already dissatisfied and making that an enjoyable experience How are we understanding this? So I would normally point to Aaron Caffico or Millimetric who are currently obviously an idea My understanding is that they are simply building up more and more metrics by which to be able to judge and assess how people make that journey There was a lot of work, a lot of research and actually Project Oreo as I am flacking what we call it has a page that links to a lot of research, a lot of which was done by the E3 team in terms of the latter half of that experience what happens when people get vandalised what happens when people get thanked for edits and all that stuff that has already resulted in some of that work I don't know how much research has been done in terms of that transition I've tried to find as much as I can and there are like Wikimedia France and Wikimedia Deutschland they are again starting to look into this Wikimedia France already runs an online mood but that is outside of Wikimedia it takes them away from the experience of having your questions assigned to something So there are some experiments in terms of trying to support and better understand that No, I don't have to say that I believe so We have a lot of feedback and there is a lot more research There is also the experience of editors who are working with the foundation for instance with the business Yeah, for example, they are involved in the you know, communities so we know sometimes some experiences that have been bound with new members who are involved quite each month I don't know Yeah, maybe in a workshop in your life just in order to give some answers to people about what are doing their project and how they are working there I have a lot of feedback from people with very you know, with a lot of different reasons why they don't want to contribute Yeah, other people say Yeah, I know I can contribute So that's not the case where people don't want to contribute Yeah, there are some people who are not contributing because one don't feel the need to make people do that even if they are working in a university and they are the top Yeah, they are the most knowledgeable part of the lot to be There is also that culture of people who Yeah, that's cool you learn something you work alone don't cheat on other people don't count on other people don't do things wrong that's the case in France I don't know about other countries So for them it's really difficult to go to a page and then work on a page that has been created by someone else So yeah, I know most people don't know they can work together There's also something online so that's only for people who have technical background so they don't feel the need to make it because that may be too complicated And also in most projects people don't know what they can do So yeah Oh yeah, there's also Yeah, they don't think they have enough time to write big articles with the technical discoverer in fact that they can just type or just add a page Yeah, there's a lot of beautiful ways to work with that so they can be filled But I guess are we are we focused on all of those things because that's or is this just more narrow about the people who are already making this transition how can we make it better because that isn't much more than how do we get more I think the first thing is understanding something what journey is because through that you will then be able to identify different areas in which it can be done to improve particular experiences you know we in terms of the editing experience there is a lot of work in terms of what a person's editing experience is but in terms of how someone realises it has ended by the need of that and what even does that do given that a lot of people think that if you're only editors that people who are paid I think it is a common anecdotal thing certainly from my experience when I say I write with periods I don't even pay I'm like no and so just by simply understanding the journey you can chip away at different bits and pieces like this isn't one massive thing we can fix in one stretch but it is something that if we have that back to you Simon we can work out what's needed there is a question from IRC can you pester people to take notes there is there is an official interpreter oh this is nothing oh okay what's it mean if you go to the the next station but it was this copy that kind of blew into a new internet maybe there is a pre-designated is there a name of a term yeah I would I would easier easier in some ways yes this is a reaction of what was already being done but that work didn't cover the whole I'm sorry I feel there is a big area we didn't do any work I think a huge amount of work was already done and people realized the problem was very intractable a lot of people were going to be injected with solutions so I feel like this is such a can of worms and just my feeling I'm glad people want to do this but I would just be very enthusiastic oh no I recognize the pessimism but for example there has been work that has been done that has resulted in negative community feedback but that doesn't mean the work shouldn't have been done and should continue to be done I think that in terms of editor recruitment it is something that is going to inherently require the communities to actually be a part of that process because there will be fears about disrupting the already existing groups that are there but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't look at it even though it is difficult to challenge and potentially conflict do you have any questions on kind of touching a little bit on some of that topic one area that could affect this I don't have a solution for it trying to think of solutions if we look at the way a society tells different people, different messages a U.S. society tells people that look like me that my voice is valuable and should be heard so then I don't really have any ambition to just jump in and start editing the U.S. society often gives a different message to people that don't look like me I'm trying to think of a place that would be more effective in bringing in talented people regardless of whether they look like me or not and that's a question we're going to bring it to I was working as a librarian and at the thoughts are very popular one of the things that like the grades are really into me creating these communities and increasing the number of women in jazz who are very very specific subset of people but I think one challenge that there was people who were able to come in at the thought and learn a little bit about at the media and references were provided but the supports have ended there so they didn't have to come back and reach out to the group that was to be ended on or trying to remember the librarian's name or once the supply of references was gone they didn't know where to look so I just wonder even if some of the outreach can happen in person and in communities how can the support system continue like online basically and especially like a lot of first-time editors having their edits overlooked in a way that is less potentially hand-holding than a librarian sitting with you is a really jarring moment because you had to work entrants into community and then once you were there I dropped alone there are differences in terms of how different community groups handle that ongoing support some are good at it most as you say it stops once you leave the door and I think that that is given that that is probably actually one of the biggest ways in which we currently interact with our readers so we have the fundraiser where we ask them for money the other thing is real life events and takes the form of editor funds or conferences and things like that but at the moment there is no universal way of being able to bring someone in provide support on the day and have them follow up with less now that could be in the form of some MOOC system or whatever that is actually part of the media with the software itself that someone can go along to one of these days they can have people that can train them and take them through and if they need more support they can continue that in their own time but there is an easy way to identify who the person was that trained you on that day and things like that I have an idea there is a group called DPLA in the Digital Library of America and one thing that I think is particularly successful about what they are doing is they have regional hubs so basically you have a specific person who is in your own camp and they are focusing on digitising historical materials so the specific team is especially important for that project but you can easily look up who a member is who maybe you know that they all sort of understand where they are coming from because they are somewhere in the community so there is something commencing in the IRC first one from Sara I don't know if I can say that shortly we need to have research what she is saying we need to have research to destruct the existing workflow there is some research that is incomplete it is due this way but I am definitely still working to continue this with whatever you are doing we need a reason less there is another note from another primer it is a question do we have a good sense of what the existing workflows are I would love to see the points at which people drop off become confused which is an excellent question there are replies and that is part of the problem there is a bigger problem because there is a lot of workflows so that work research has been done as a very specific one of those which is good since there is all of these things but it also presents a big picture it is really hard to research especially for readers because it is really difficult to find readers and I have a note about that research is done for practical reasons I am not an English there is a lot of readers who sometimes have different background cultural background because of that language I mean just come back and join we are researching how this project work that is mostly with already established users and the best we could comment was to just ask people directly what they are doing and I mean there are many ways of assessing the user experience and the various steps that people go in terms of discovery of different functionality so there are many ways of doing that but we do need to there needs to be a stomach and complete overview of one individual's progress and experiences as they learn and discover how to we can do very generic studies at various different stages but in terms of how one person develops and how another person develops they will be completely different experiences and how does someone become a volunteer media work developer how do they actually get into that it is the same kind of question how someone and then when you become an editor you will then branch off into many different areas of the project you will go into new page patrol you will go into GLAM or you may decide that you actually can't start working on the online stuff but you start branching off into other areas this is a much bigger question in terms of individual journey through our whole movement the first steps of how they come in that is when you have the door and you cannot support people to come in if you don't have any of the resources there there is no point in me shouting on the street corner with a banner saying please come join our community because I know that that would work it is simple numbers the more you turn up floodgates the more people you will get that cannot be done if we don't understand how we need to support those people further down the line because otherwise people are just going at the very first stage going you know what I am not interested we have inherently self selected individuals in the community who like to find how to do things in a challenging way because that is why they are there people who do self discovery with thousands of words or through learning from other pages and copying and stuff like that that is not the process that everyone will follow no exactly my argument is there needs to be good, solid and comprehensive research of all of those different parts that was the point I have been researching this about bookers discussion or anything maybe looking at collaborating with universities, especially universities that might serve primarily focus on serving people that don't look like me and kind of engage what kind of find something that is like a master's project and do something like that do you mean as editors or as researchers? it could be a master's thesis on the experience of real people at these universities for that pipeline basically of becoming an editor and what happens I mean the last one that I know of was the summer of research which was 2011, 2012 I think that's where Darian, Aaron and somebody else who's been working on that that's how it came in I don't know if that is a work that is still going on but there is precedent for having that kind of research being done at an academic level but I mean to be able to have the resource to provide those people to do the tools to do that kind of research is the same motivation for us to be able to do our job in terms of what is working because we need to be able to measure not just the interactions that someone has but as a change that we experience and that's what we're trying to do but we need to know what we need to measure because we don't know necessarily what steps people are stopping because that's how you learn how to improve that experience is anyone interested in working on this bearing in mind that it won't be my job but I need to convince someone which is the other thing and that's actually my final request this isn't going to be my project but this this is something that needs to happen and I doing people are you saying you're just throwing it at them basically I'm throwing it at them I would love to be involved and there are things that I am going to do myself that I can do within the role of my job one of the issues is it's not people all everybody agrees genuinely this is the thing that needs to happen this is a big challenge there's a lot of this going into it but it was a challenge it has been identified it's just the the work that was done it was felt that the change that came out from that wasn't huge and I think we were looking at a different area so I think if you want to create movement on it you have to do something more specific like instead of just talking about the whole problem generally saying this varies I want to focus on this very specific thing so somehow narrow down the problem like there and I think that might focus people's attention on that sort of problem or find somebody with a lot of resources who has a lot of space to take a notion of this like if you could convince the editing department a lot of space to focus on this something like that but just raising the issue I think the issues no no no I accept I accept the question I don't question that but at the same time I can hear the degree of honesty that I know I'm not going to be able to solve this problem I'm working and I'm looking to work in reader engagement in terms of how we can actually speak with our readers and I'm going to do that through what is the blunt force tool because that is the tool I'm going to solve but I think that there will be lessons that will come from that I hope that will lead to further work rather than being able to do more than you might which is what I will be doing in that section so it's not like what you were looking for it's some sort of own that process where you identify the different steps essentially I think there will be I think there's research to be done Who do you think would be the natural person to do this if you can't put the research the reason, yeah and what could we were not part of the research I don't know I don't work in a reader engagement I don't briefly, yeah I've been having lots of conversations with lots of people I've had a chat with Toby I've had a chat with Trevor I've had a chat with Katie and there are things I would like to see happen in terms of making synchronisation a better communication tool I've had chats with Melody Cramer who may or may not be on IRC who has done previous work in terms of all modern people I've had chats with people in the community department people like Chris Shelley for example who worked in the tea house and Jonathan Morgan who worked in the tea house people who again have experience and have desire to improve them it's just a point whereby I want to move it forward I'm so essentially shamelessly pleading for support essentially I'm working out how we can move it forward and back rather than me just talking to people and also there is a page and I would love that if people have ideas in terms of what they think that should be done it's a very empty page at the moment but please go and add stuff to it and what not and there will be further conversations but it's just kind of seeing firstly I don't know if anyone will show up in the room if that's it I will let you guys find some follow-up Chris following up a little bit on Caroline mentioned the DVLA do you think everybody is in a partnership with like Maryam so oh yeah I mean I can say for all librarians I can just speak to places that are with us like Rayam and so we teach interest in getting these tools to get but you know I think part of maybe worth talking to the DVLA also they kind of came up to us pretty fast and set up a lot of community hubs and really got the trust and buy in from a lot of small library systems and small librarians how to reach out and there's also there's the Wikipedia library they go to ALA every year so my first time ever talking to someone who worked at the foundation was at the American Library Association conference so that made me sense to be out in the region and to talk to people about that project and also when people are young they work with librarians all the time to do so libraries have a lot of connections and I mean the Wiki Education Foundation which is literally around the corner I need to go and actually see them I mean they are doing a lot of work in terms of actually using Wikipedia as an education tool and there will be lessons to be learned from that that will need to feed into this because they're probably one of the groups that are the most hands on in terms of actually understanding that process from a medication point of view and I would love to see some sort of MOOC or however some sort of progress tracker that actually follows your you know your abilities as you progress as an editor and that provides training materials within the experience on Wikipedia because one of the issues that I have with a lot of the current methods of teaching either requires you to be in a physical place or it requires you to be taken away from your current user experience which means that you're no longer on the project and you're already going to be losing 90% of the participants just by doing that if that experience can be provided on Wikipedia within the media and software then it already you're going to be drastically improving the uptake and success rates that people do I mean if I were putting myself in the shoes of thinking of being a librarian and I get a request from somebody from the actual Wikimedia foundation asking for feedback if they ever have things like librarians welcome to have for incoming students orientation programs and stuff and if the librarians if you ask them for feedback I would imagine they would be very happy to share their feedback and I'm assuming that most of the feedback will be particularly if they try to use the existing online resources that it's just simply a barrier to entry is just too hard I recognize there is a lot of non-technical work that needs to be done to work alongside any efforts from technicals but Have you seen the teen house? Yes, I mean that's why I know jobs are more than we're showing and obviously that's the first experiment in terms of being able to try and support those new exercises they're coming through but the trouble is with that and this is something that they all admit themselves it doesn't scale I mean there was a talk earlier on about edit review and I have to say there's only about 10 people actually doing that I think the teen house there's about 10 or 20 individuals but those individuals they can only do that one-to-one support for a few people and that's because they're having to do it because the actual resources to help support people don't exist so they're having to provide a support that addresses an entire onboarding process and ultimately that's what we need because then you can start integrating the existing training that we're doing in the real world with that and that can become a lie but at the moment everybody's trying to do their own thing and literally everybody's trying to reinvent the wheel in every country, in every language because they have their own cool idea of how to do that and admittedly I'm suggesting that I don't I'm not ignoring the irony of it but the reason why they're all doing their own thing is because there's nothing that I can stop And is your main focus on things that can be done on Wikipedia or are you also looking for direct outreach to organizations? The direct outreach is already happening we already do that work with partnerships with GLAMs and education etc so that's already there this is to provide that online equivalent because the online equivalent will scale Yeah, there's a lot of processes that we don't know about of the project that we need to be in but we don't know if there's some issues that will help people to get to be on board of the project and there is a lot of big potential in this project There is a separation that would need to occur between what is consistent across every media within the project and the media foundation and Brown but once you move on from a technical point and you start going into policies about how you write a article you need to make sure that that any system that you develop allows each individual community to select to tailor that but to give them the framework within which to develop it I know that we have some success with our our review was for people who are not PhD active biologists they would often feel hesitancy to get involved but there are projects that are totally motivated high school or could contribute and one area that we had a lot of success with was bringing in organized group of high schoolers and maintaining contact with this group of high schoolers over time but then you do run into a scaling issue but having a cohort or a group of successful groups but yeah no no I always would say you know we were going to do the first bit but we aren't doing the follow up going to a section is one of the things it is maintaining that contact and being able to provide support but you need to do that scalably online as well because otherwise again there are only so many volunteers there are only so many groups so many volunteers well yeah there aren't so many volunteers I'm pretty sure that people contribute to the group with a project because it's a selfish project I do that because it's current I don't care teachers or professors could they be help scaling I mean that is essentially what the Wiki Education Foundation is essentially is doing that recruitment through but doing that through universal forces so they actually teach people how to write Wikipedia outposts through universal forces and so there are already real life materials that are already there but that is the again the being able to maintain contact with X number of professors there comes a point where you know lessons start growing an entire organization around doing sport which is essentially what the Wiki Education Foundation is they can only do that so much and so the whole point behind what I'm trying to push for is that doing it online having that whole process online is far more sale than anything that currently we are doing in real life because you know you if I'm interested in editing I'm a reader of I'm probably not going to go to the library to look at it I'm just not going to do that I don't have time for that but if there's onboarding information or like tutorials or I don't know what you're envisioning what the data would suggest but if there's some other way to do it seamlessly right on my phone like oh you can edit it I can do that click and then you see how you can do it then I would be more likely to become editor because I don't have to go super out of my way to figure out how to do that and there have been some efforts to try and do that like there is a version of the wizard which the concept is similar to what I might envision but it is done at such a basic level like it is done with wiki marker like you click a button it's an actual button it's very basic that is kind of what I may like to see I'm not an expert but the trouble is there have been some efforts at a very basic level but there is only so much you can do within wiki marker and trying to but the thing is that the end result is always and I come back to this from where they are the end result is always all of that and trying to provide a learning experience and trying to provide an educational experience there are whole websites dedicated to that I mean I would love to see some sort of equivalence of what codecannon does within the wiki environment for media wiki users and marker or the visualizer that would be fantastic because then someone actually has some sort of equivalence but the end result should always be actually contributing like apparently I'm 10% proficient in Spanish but not actually like it needs to be we need to make sure that it's people learning actually learning actually contributing and not simply for the sake of it which is but that is again the whole idea and the reason why we need to do this media wiki and we can't rely on community support is that the media foundation supports the number of wikis the number of wikis that have a community that have a group that actually work with newcomers are very small more than 700 out of these age-old and wikis don't have a community that can put a few volunteers of editing to concentrate on onboarding newcomers we have wikis where there's one person that does everything there is so little activity and we require one person but you couldn't then take that one person and just have them do it but even a medium sized wiki don't really have the resources to even handle a small group of persons if you need constant guidance this need to be able to happen automatically you need good ways for people to have an onboarding experience doesn't require a lot of time to do it and actually that applies not just on wiki but in real world yes we have chapters that have volunteers who can go and do all this stuff in certain countries but there will be some countries whereby there may be one or two or three volunteers and they're trying to do work for an entire country and although they may be able to do that in a school or maybe two schools first and yes there is hope that that will grow and get bigger and scale up but the reality is it's very difficult to do that and do that successfully whereas if you can provide the tools based on how to progress as an editor then it lessens the need for resources limiting factors other than money in development that's the problem conversational for having a skin a really conversational style for some of the if I look at some of the pd articles they also have citation errors I'll say things like that but have we looked at doing any user studies where you ask people what do they think of some of these little tags that might be getting grabbed do you know I have no idea I don't know if there have been user studies in terms of all of the crappy banners that get prompt articles like this article has been referenced this article is a new current event this article is a blah blah blah I don't know I mean there is a general desire but I know that my contribution stuff through the video which I think is it's probably the most what's the word I'm looking for I don't know there's a word it's great it's good and it's neat and it's interesting there is a lot of potential for that kind of work and that is it is one set essentially another route and another entry and it will become a whole new path where hopefully you can contribute that will get back into the study so I think that was the question for you from your experiment the question is are editors the right people to train new editors do you think that burden in them it may not be the best they want to do or it does that it suits oh yeah so I mean one of the key things in anything that the foundation does is never assume that someone is going to actually want to do the work that you'd like them to do and it comes back to a few points one that there may be only 10 people that want to actually do this in which case you can't expect that suddenly there is going to be a whole new community of people that are actually going to do your new thing because that's something that we've fallen afoul as an organisation in the past and there was another point that skipped my head could you repeat the question the question was are editors the right people to train new editors oh yeah there is a good idea now on IRC about that the other thing yeah so the other thing is comes back to the whole self-selection thing that I mentioned we have a community that is self-selected being able to do deal with high barriers of entry and therefore they are not necessarily the right people to teach people how to edit because there are lots of bad habits that come with that I think the next comment what would be really interesting about processes that we can have to teach people something else to teach about something that that person doesn't know about can make good results yeah no I completely agree there are even possibilities that culturally there will be different methods of entry into the communities people coming in from different countries will react to our processes and our systems in different ways and so it's not even a case of what will work on the English Wikipedia will work across multiple languages and we know we can't use the case there are some previous experiences that things don't and so yeah our edits are necessarily the right people to be developing all of that probably not and that's an okay thing there are some people who will be interested but I don't think there should be an expectation but it comes to if people think that this is an important point then we bring in the expertise to the movement to be able to do that and actually have people within the organisation who specialise in doing that kind of onboard in the same way that we bring people into help with documentation just because you're a good developer doesn't mean that you're good documenting your code yeah and so it's the same kind of idea if we want to be able to build those kinds of learning experiences like not only do you have to build a tool but you have to actually build the process within which people are learning which requires specialists that's why we have teachers we have ten minutes but oh wow on action items do we have any action items we write it apart can't write it apart I don't know if this account is an action item but just kind of looking back to what you were saying earlier about doing some microcontribution projects I can personally to the community council we have four different types of microcontributions that you can do and so we do have an idea of like allowing users to add images to articles if they turn on the mobile nearby and publication on their apps so that if they're there an article that doesn't have all the images and that recording audio for articles is a different thing yeah so there's a big difference so we're looking at technical possibly or so I'm looking at the Taylor Swift article here and if I was like a kid who wanted to update this um I don't see on each section you could be like maybe there could be some option where almost a Fisher price is correct if it isn't added here or obviously not that exactly but like is there some way to do maybe even for like high schools if we give these apps just out of a high school or university like if the university agrees everybody gets that might get the Fisher price skin that says lots of invitations to add yeah I mean I think that there definitely is room for providing different experiences to different types of users um but obviously like then you know like multiplying the amount of work that the team has to do to provide any experience three or four times to try to keep that uh I think that like one of the one of the ideas that I wanted to start looking into in terms of what I can do is trying to look at how many people you know when they make their first edit people are interested in further materials like try and support them in terms of you know their first edit their first ten edits, their first hundred edits after a hundred you hope that you know that pretty much continue experiencing the site in their own way and that leaves the balance of what I think this will focus on although that is still important because it comes into more of the actual editing that they have transitioned into being an editor um I think that there are key steps you can nurture that you can provide a targeting messaging in terms of we need you to do this um if you want to learn how to do it here's a quick guide, a very simple not an entire encyclopedia entry but that's why I came down in terms of providing actually you know within the interface having health prompts and stuff like that and actually I mentioned earlier on about having the ability to detect what the user is trying to do within their editing experience so if you think about trying to add a reference or add a link or stuff like that to be able to provide a bit, looks like you're trying to do this you know, here's just to make sure that you're doing it correctly so yeah it's possible it's going to be possible soon to identify what someone tries to do for example it's possible to create a credit what someone wants to do on an article based on what he has that person has already known before so yeah I don't know if that's possible for the people of this for instance if someone's having one, two, three, four, five features you can identify the person who wants to create a gallery not sure yeah yeah and there's things like that but I mean that's when you start really in terms of being an editor and you know once they start working out how to add multiple pictures and they're all properly formatted if we can get someone to add a picture I feel that that's what the aim of this should be not all the way down the road because that starts wading into a team that already exists and is already doing work this is meant to be very much focused in that transition period which will include being able to suggest some of that and I would hope that it could be used more but again I was going to run into an idea could it be like each paragraph had the option to provide some kind of response thumbs up, thumbs down, smiley face, brownie face kind of a way for people to give some feedback basically above whether the paragraph is correct and if they take the initiative to approve or disapprove of a paragraph to be correct that could lead them into correcting no, if I'm viewing in the article a paragraph we have lots of feedback I was asking for specifics in order to when not the whole article just like even one paragraph yeah, well all I would say based on our previous experience trying to do that kind of thing it wasn't as great as we would have thought the benefits and gains from that but that is that is encouraging someone reinforcing the idea of them being a passerby which it's a very low cost and then once they've done some investment yeah, but I think rather than having someone keep going, yeah or no just somebody on the lighting side no, that's a shit or this is all lies which is essentially what happens maybe you could think of for instance, there was an incident in the R&B because once you handle it it's not normal in terms of the way that people normally handle whereas contributing is results in a net benefit like people actually editing out the reason why people exist is because humanity, somehow when they're giving to something there is results in a net benefit something that when someone is a bystander they're not emotionally attached they're not emotionally involved in that whereas if they're actually contributing to something and that they are aware that that thing will become public it actually makes more I would hope it would make them more invested I think it's great to go look at the overviews of national parks people will rate bagels so we're higher than we'll rate Yellowstone national park it's so easy on the internet to look around and I think there's maybe a distinction between creating versus saying you see something in a paragraph that you're seeing me doesn't look correct but reporting said that is one of the ideas that we have as a real contribution is to begin the app if you're reading an article about Taylor Swift and you think oh actually she didn't date Thomas or whatever you kind of want to point out something as a buff and have that the idea is to actually have it posted to the talk page so as an entryway you can actually want to rewrite the section that I'm interested in because I think there might be something that could be improved in there and that kind of has a gateway to introduce a user that should be interested in was exactly I mean as my mom was saying that is something that was tried it was the article feedback pool and generally the reaction to it as far as I'm aware was quite negative from editors that they thought okay there's a lot of feedback that really isn't useful at the end of the intro though maybe there's something that could be something that's missing there maybe we don't care about the feedback we just care about the pathway for readers to start editing so there's something that could be improved but if we worked on somebody who worked on that and you want to take the lesson of the article feedback I mean there are lots of there are various ideas that dabble into my contributions for example there is a tool that's going on on labs that basically presents you with a sentence that isn't cited and this gives you the option to then go off and try and cite that particular sentence and there are things like that whereby and that may not be necessary that particular action but for example like okay there is a sentence that's unscited we may be able to find ways to provide in suggested citations and then having them human checked before then being able to ask the area and that kind of stuff could be so there is definitely room for allowing that sort of entry level contribution and there's a whole swathe of things that can be done in terms of what you're on on a mobile phone because obviously mobile is not a it is still very mutual in relative comparison how it's used and that strikes from both the way that people edit and the way that for example in the way that people contribute in the fundraising it isn't as an insurance platform and we try to find a way that people actually want to interact with that it's going to be key and given the way that our traffic is transferring from desktop and on and off is more mobile then, more than 50% that will become standard and eventually desktop will be relegated to much more as traffic but the trouble is that most of the editing is done on a desktop so we are going to have to get smarter about how we engage our readers in terms of bringing them on to mobile and being able to contribute and edit by mobile so we're out of time I'm amazed that people actually manage to keep talking thank you very much, thank you people who have had my back of my head for an hour and I will follow up with people in this room and there are other people who have expressed interest who are not necessarily in this room as well who again are very much interested in being able to take this forward and there will be a case of identifying what doesn't, does not need to be done immediately and what can, cannot be done with the resources of the camera but that's the legs of the area so thank you all thank you for being very patient goodbye online people I don't even know what I need to do we were seeing it you were very... stop streaming okay there is still something back from IFC which about the station the first one is that was very kind the first one is also known as Zindal thank you, well, you know thank you people, you're very kind I don't agree with you but you are very kind right, goodbye