 Hello and let's talk about sportspersons in the fight for social justice. The whole of the United States is seeing major protests over the death of George Floyd. Floyd, a black man, was killed by police officers on May 25th, with one of them placing his neck on Floyd's knee for over 8 minutes. In the aftermath, these powerful protests have seen people taking over the streets and demanding racial justice and systemic change. Some sportspersons have also come out in support of these protests, a recent example being footballers in the German domestic league, the Bundesliga, who took a stand demanding justice for the family of Floyd. In this context, many in the country have talked about India too and our responses to such systemic issues. One thing we're very clear about, at least is that sportspersons are very hesitant to take a stand, even during very troubling times like these. We talked in news clicks Leslie Xavier on this issue. Leslie, thank you so much for joining us. So over the weekend, over the past few days, we've seen instances of solidarity with the protests in the US after the death of George Floyd, athletes in many countries, sportspersons in many countries have taken a stand and this is despite the fact that, of course, the stand is against the US government, the most powerful government in the world. So we are in some senses and there's of course a long history even in the US of sportspersons actually working with the civil rights movements, taking a very powerful stand against racism, against systemic discrimination. So in some senses, this is a continuation of that long tradition. Yeah, it is a continuation, but then the latest protests have happened at the place where the only sporting action is happening, that is in Germany. So over the weekend in the German Bundesliga when the matches were happening, three players, they used the matches as a platform to put out the message that black lives matter. So that's the, so, but you mentioned that the athletes who are protesting, be it in the US or be it anywhere else, they are taking on the strongest country in the world at the moment, the powerful country at the moment, but then they are taking on the entire economic establishment actually because sport is interconnected with capitalism, with big brands, and these big brands have larger stakes in governments and policies. And so when you take on the government, you are also inadvertently taking on the system. And so that requires a lot of guts. So recently, a couple of days back, Naomi Osaka, up and coming tennis player, in fact, she has arrived because she won two Grand Slams last year, Australian Open as well as US Open. And she was the highest, she won the highest as a woman tennis player last year. So she was the highest earner. So she has a lot to lose if you look at it, taking a stance like this. She brought out her voice via social media on Instagram as well as on Twitter and criticizing what has been happening and saying, if it doesn't mean that it's not happening with you, that doesn't mean that it's not happening at all. And where are the voices? So where are the voices that should be coming out and should be going across the world against this injustice, against this brutality and open racism. So Naomi is one from the tennis world, a 16-year-old that took Coco Goff, an up and coming player from the US. And she was, she brought out a TikTok video and where she demanded justice and demanded that end too. And then across the Atlantic, the players, football players have stood up and made it a point to use football as a platform to protest. One of them is an American, by the way, a Western McKinsey who plays for Shalke. And so the entire point is that at least they know their power to start with and they know their social responsibility, they know their political responsibility as well. So they are using sport, I mean, not just as an engine for themselves or not just as an engine for entertainment. So that's the problem notion that has been around, especially in this lockdown where restart of action, talk about restart of sports is related to entertainment related to the sport's ecosystem, to the economy of the economic structure of sport and the business of sport. But sport, that larger political and social role that comes out in these protests and that's heartening to see. But what is disheartening is that what is happening around the racism or discrimination or any form. But voices need to come out and it's happening. So right now it's inevitable that we in this context turn the lens to India because there is obviously a lot of social churning happening. The lockdown has brought with it its own social, social economical and political issues. And for instance, we have had the greatest forced migration in decades that you're seeing right now. And at this point, India sports persons are not really anywhere part of the narrative of the discussion. There are no way, say, doing something similar to what these sports persons we're talking about are doing. Yeah, so it's India, the Indian context has always been like this. So we have had this discussion previously when the JNU issue was raising. When the universities were targeted, our students were targeted. At that point, I mean, even when you look at for instance, an immediate name that comes to mind is Virender Sehwag who is very vocal about a lot of things by his Twitter, he's a very popular Twitter character. And he's also an ex Jamia student. And so when all those atrocities were happening in Jamia, Virender Sehwag was, I mean, he probably was living in some other planet because he was completely silent about it. He was, I mean, forget, I mean, he didn't even acknowledge that such a thing is happening. And I mean, usually you send out something right as a former, if you're a former student of an institution, you were at least some kind of a registration, you do think, I mean, this is not, this is not right, or this shouldn't be the case. My the university, I was part of it's burning. It shouldn't be the case. Things like that, nothing. So that that shows the kind of cloud that our sportspersons have superstars as they are cricketers, especially, but they are unwilling to use that cloud or that they reach among the masses in the country to for a larger good beyond their, I mean, we have sportspersons who feature in the top 10 to top 50 list of forms that comes out every year as the highest earner. We had colleagues as always been in the top, I mean, recently has been in the top 10. And in the top 50, we have at least four or five cricketers around. But when I mean, when it comes to taking a stance using that kind of might as a brand as a, as a sporting hero of the country, we are zero and this is, I mean, the case even for the man they call God of cricket. They're just, they're very inert, I mean, and politically inertness, maybe it's because as a sports person, you are, when you're coming up through the ranks, you are being come, drilled that being politically neutral is important for survival in the sporting ecosystem in the country. So I can understand that. But social inertness, that's something because you're part of the society. So when some injustice is happening in the society, be it the Delhi violence that happened and you have, we have, we are totally Delhi's favorite son. And I think, I think it didn't register that something is happening like that in Delhi. And as of now, when, when you mentioned migration and reverse migration and the kind of deaths that we are seeing on the roads, on railway platforms and the suffering that we are seeing. And we have on, that's, that's happening on one side and there is a lot of you and cry on the social media about, about this and about. So, and then we have our sports persons creating an island in itself, a different ecosystem, a bubble of sorts. So for an outsider, when, when, when someone looks at the Instagram page of for instance, Virat Kohli and Surin Chaitri, the two captains, I mean, Indian football team captain and the cricket team captain. So they have been chatting quite regularly on Instagram, humoring each other. And they're talking, talking about holidays, about been cooking at home, whatever you just feel that they, they, they just don't, I mean, they just, they belong to somewhere else. They're not part of, part of India as such. And we are talking about these two. I mentioned these two names specifically because they are captains of the national teams. I mean, yeah, Surin Chaitri, the senior most player of the national team and the face of Indian football team and Virat Kohli, the, I mean, you know, what the, we kind of reach Virat Kohli as not just in India, but internationally. So these are faces of Indian sport and sport is always considered a mirror of, of a country. So these guys are ambassadors of the country in a way. And then they are portraying themselves in such a, such a low light, such I mean, it's, it's, I mean, plainly put, it's irresponsible behavior as well, because as, as responsible citizens, as responsible ordinary citizens, we are supposed to have a sense, a civic sense, a sense of duty towards, towards society, a sense to stand up for what is right, a sense to, if not, if not protest or if not outrightly fight, but point out at least this is not right. This is wrong. Or this is what is happening in the country. And this is what, which should ideally happen. Instead, you are caught in your own world of glory and holidays and Bollywood and self self aggrandization and all these things. So that's not right. And look, I mean, if, if, if at all possible, our sports person should, should look at, look at the others around. And I'm not saying that all the sports persons outside are perfect either. So we have people who are, who people like, for instance, Lionel Messi, he never, I don't believe he has taken any political stance ever, but we also have many other footballers who have in the past in the present from Brazil or from, from Argentina or from everywhere. So, so the larger role that you can play as a sports person as a, as a, as a, as a sports star, because your country has made you so is, is, is missing in India. And maybe it's about time that in these, in these circumstances we, our stars learn to be more alert and more aware and more, more proactive in such matters. Right. And also that as fans, we also ask that our stars and demand that our stars also take such positions because I suspect a lot of it has to do with, yeah. Because four, five, sixes and goals and World Cups and trophies and all that are, yeah. You are supposed to earn all those things for, for us, but when life comes to such a situation as we are facing right now and, and it's not just COVID-19 or the related lockdowns and the suffering, but last few years, if you take all the things that have been happening in the country and nothing. I mean, maybe one or two sports stars have come out Irfan, I mean, sorry. Couple of cricketers had come out and spoken about it Mohammed Kaif had spoken about it and Irfan Patan had spoken about it. So that's it. Otherwise, yeah, we have a great Gautam Kambir who is who has his own political agenda and we have our great Sachin Tendulkar, member of Parliament who sits silent and so it's, it's, it's, it's odd and maybe we should I mean our sports stars, yeah, as fans, we should be more demanding about from our heroes and they should be delivering it beyond the playing ground. And secondly, our sports stars should be ashamed of themselves. Right, right. Thank you so much Leslie for talking to us. Our next segment is part of a conversation between writer Vijay Prashad and musician T.M. Krishna. A while ago, T.M. Krishna wrote an article responding to the claims of self-proclaimed Guru Jaggi Vasudev that his own community was as an example of communism. Vijay Prashad and T.M. Krishna take this conversation forward from there, reflecting on our democracy, our collective subservience to the will of one man and what freedom and our rights truly mean. In the essay you wrote on Sadhguru and his claim that his commune is a, is a communist paradise, you write something that's actually very important to consider. And it's not just about his commune or the Isha Yoga center, but I hazard you have all of India in mind when you wrote the sentence. The sentence is institutions that create mindless followers who do not challenge the power structure controlling them cannot claim equality. And here you have India. We have a superb constitution, you know, we have something that we can be proud of. And yet it seems like we've entered a phase where mindless following is supposed to be the ethos of our politics. Yeah, I mean, the constitution is only as good as the people who are, who are actually enabling its, its functionality. It's only as good as that. Otherwise it's just words on a piece of paper. And you know, we know it. Our past history also tells us we know it, whether it is the state or whether it's the center. We have seen the worst things happen in a country that speaks about equality, about justice, about, about fraternity, about socialism, about care, about empathy. So therefore our present context is exactly it's a hurt context. We are now in, in a kind of mental state as a country where we believe that challenging any power, especially the political power in the country is an act which is undemocratic. I mean, there can't be greater irony than that. That democracy today is about listening to one man's voice. It's about getting onto your balcony and hitting your plates because Mr. Modi said, hit your plates. I mean, I mean, it is shocking that we've become so down to put it very bluntly, you know, and just not thinking about what we're acting. What does solidarity mean? You know, people say, but what does solidarity mean? What do you mean you're in solidarity with the people who are working on the streets? I will tell you what is solidarity. When they come to pick up your baggage, don't treat them like they are some, you know, untouchables. That's solidarity. Solidarity isn't the acts that we enable ourselves to do individually and collectively as communities in the way we want to stay with the healthcare professionals or those or civic, civic people. It is not in banging plates and how many people have balconies, banging plates. I mean, we've been working with migrant workers. They don't have food to put on a plate. Who are we kidding? And the fact that a large part of the middle class India and I must say beyond that too, which is also true, have somehow bought into this, this tamasha. You know, it's almost some way Vijay that we all seem to be part of some kind of an opera or a play and you know, and we're all just playing parts as directed by a party or an individual and that we, you know, we should not think it's like, I mean, almost like an army in some ways where you say the army band should not think what is happening to us and this is not about your political position. It is about your integrity as a citizen, your integrity as a collective. I mean, it is, it's about the basic things that make India India and somehow we are convinced that just listening to honestly mumbo jumbo and irrational speeches by one individual is going to solve our problems because we have to just trust the person. How ridiculous is it? Yes, it is ridiculous, but it's also real and that's terrifying. Babasaheb Ambedkar in the last 10 years of his life reflecting on this new democracy in India wrote on many different occasions and with great feeling that you can't make a democracy at least a liberal democracy in India unless you uproot the caste system that caste hierarchies were going to undermine democratic institutions. He, he warned that this was going to happen. Do you feel that this is indeed part of this sort of hallucination toward the Lord above? Look, there's no doubt the caste framework through which everything in our society operates. Our feudal sense is through the caste system and we have never truthfully addressed it culturally and socially and I want to bring that point up here. There is no, you know, we have to think of such frameworks social discriminated frameworks as cultural beings. It's not just about access to education or access to public health, healthcare, etc. It is about transforming certain cultural fabrics that we consider part of our culture which fundamentally are inhuman discriminative and very, very subversive of freedom of democratic ethos itself. And I don't think you really addressed this in this country. That's the truth and Ambedkar was right that unless we address that fundamental thing, we are never going to go past this cuts across every god damn religion and every atheist. Let me say that too. So, you know, it's not got to with any religion right now or any believer that this is ingrained in the way we behave. It is ingrained and you know, the oppressiveness, the acceptance of oppression as normalized as that's how it is. This whole really ugly mechanism is holding us back. In fact, that's the reason we don't understand rights. We don't understand democracy. We don't understand sharing. We only understand feudal health. We understand favors, which is why political parties behave like they are doing us a favor if they're doing their job, which is why babus behave like they're doing us a favor. All this is part of caste thinking that none of this is a right of equality, right of every citizen. Therefore, unless we very robustly address this culturally within our societal frameworks within conversations and create, you know, create a way by which we don't just talk about it, but we actually act upon it. And I think the government also has a role in this, you know, has a very important role in this and you know, as much as the every government of India has talked about cultural diversity in India, they care a damn about it. They really care a damn about it. It's something that is to be put up in some ICCR festival somewhere where art forms are shown and flaunted. But actually we don't care about our culture because if we care about our culture, it means we have to ask difficult questions of our culture, which means we have to push citizens to uncomfortable positions. Therefore, we are very happy to not talking about culture in serious ways. Just saying we have nice music and dance, different cuisines, different ways of wearing a saree and feeling very proud that we are a Europe in one country. Come on. It's honestly, we have done this service to the democracy that we got. That's all we have in this episode of Let's Talk. We'll be back tomorrow with the latest news developments of the day. Until then, keep watching NewsClick.