 We're glad to know you're still there. Right now, we're taking the next hot topic and that is the Federal Inland Revenue Service to boost tax revenue collection by 57% in 2020-24%. So more than half, more than 50%, the boost in tax revenue collection by the FIRS. We have Mr. Bola-Hon, a public policy analyst who has just joined us to x-ray this. Good morning and welcome to the program, Mr. Olojide. Yeah, thank you and thanks for coming. Okay. FIRS to boost tax revenue collection by 57% in 2020-24. To some of us who may not know the numbers so well, it's a lot. So what do you think about this? What's your take? Well, it is one of those things we have advocated for very long. Typically, when members of the public hear news like this, what comes across to a number of people is that they are going to tax us more. They're going to have to pay more taxable. That is not what this message is saying. This message is talking about collection. So there is already a lot of taxes on the table for which collection efficiency is very poor or that we're not even collecting at all. So it is not additional taxes. It is not an increase in tax rate. It is an improvement in collection efficiency. One of the news item very recently was how one of the tobacco companies in Nigeria was going on to buy 100 million dollars or something like that. So the question you ask yourself is why was that money left on the table? So that is the problem of collection. It has nothing to do with revenue, that with tax rate increase or with expanding tax available taxes or the number of taxes. No, it is about saying the existing taxes at the existing rates collect more of them from the payers. That's essentially what it is. You have always said to improve tax collection, they need to widen the tax net and all that. Some of those solutions that you've been giving us. But now that they're talking about the rate of collection, the improvement in the rate of collection, have you seen anything in that document that suggests that this will be a success story? Well, improving the efficiency of collection relies heavily on the internal restructuring within the institution itself to be able to collect more efficiently. Of course, there is the fair government committee that is working on issues of proliferation of taxes, multiple taxation and fiscal policy. That is a very important part because part of the collection problem is also the fact that there are so many taxes to take away and we streamline it and make it easier for the payer to be able to make the pay. Number two is improving on the ease of collection. How easy is it for the payer who wants to pay to even pay? No, there is also a corruption that is involved in the taxation space, whether it is oil and gas or the non-oil side of it. There is a lot of corruption. Now, to deal with that matter, it's also heavily on internal discipline and the message sent out by the collection agents if I have it. So, make it easier for people to collect, deal with corruption that is involved in that space. Issues of proliferation of taxes streamline the number of taxes, create platform for me to sit in my office, permit my taxes and if I need to engage with tax officials, make it easy to have that to make that happen. It will have a great deal to facilitate collection. Let me give you a very, an example that is easier to relate, though it doesn't relate to the federal taxes. It has to do with payee. So, you have a lot of organization who deducts payee from the staff salary. After they have deducted it, they are not remitting the payee, they are just keeping it in their own books right there. Meanwhile, the staff, the employee has already suffered the deduction. I said the total salary is 100 but at the end of the month, I gave you 80. I said 20 out of the thing is for taxation. For that 20, I held on to it. That is a collection problem. If the collecting agency is not able to lay hands on that 20, and there is a lot of those happening. I can also, I would also like to add that there is a principle that the president has been mentioned, it's very important to say, look, we will tax the fruit, not the seed. That is a very, very important cardinal of taxation. Speed is what you need to be able to produce the fruit. So, if the seed is not right or if the seed is depleted, then you will not be able to produce the fruit or produce the right level of fruit. But if you allow the seed to be, and people are able to sow the seed and produce fruit, then you can go ahead and tax the price. Oh, now that you have produced fruit, which in this case is going to be profit, bring a little bit of this profit as taxation. That is very critical, and like that, the part of this improvement of passive income collection that we are talking about. If people don't make the profit, if you tax their seed, then you're not going to get the right level of taxes. Yeah, when dealing with numbers, detail is very important. In fact, in everything, detail is very important. This committee that you said is fine-tuning some things to come out with a blueprint on how taxation should go. Have they given their report? But if they have not, how did they come about the 57%? Are they just assuming that that's what it's going to be? Because if not, it's going to be a problem. 57%. And you don't have a document, a working document, something to show you how to go about the XYZ of collection. Interestingly, the person who is heading that committee is a professional tax man who has done it. So he knows where all the debt will be. It's not difficult to put together numbers to make an estimate. It's not going to be a perfect estimate. For example, if you want to know how many companies are registered in Nigeria, how many companies file a return? Go to CAC, CAC will tell you how many returns in your particular life. We have GDP numbers. We have companies that have quoted whose numbers are public information. So essentially what I'm trying to say is that information is available to be able to make a rough estimate. And say, look, from all the companies that we believe should be able to pay money in contact, this is what we expect. But this is what we are getting. By virtue of what we are getting, we know that there is still this food, there is still this gap that is possible if we work at it. So it is possible to actually put together those numbers and arrive at a rough estimate of how much more we can collect. You can even have it in faces. Say, look, maybe the target for this year maybe 57% more. Maybe by next year, the target might rise up to like 80% of what is collectable is what we are now targeting. A lot of inefficiency in the system is creating leakages. Government revenues is leaking into voids that we cannot even begin to talk about. Think about it. If Nigeria is indeed the largest economy enough, how come the entire revenue, including equal-noil revenue, is not up to value added tax revenue. All of that, all of our revenue, put it together, the return revenue of the federal government of Nigeria is not up to that collection. It shows that there is something wrong somewhere. You cannot have this huge economy and things, the kind of revenue you are able to generate from it, is not good enough. And I would like to bring in the issue of taxing the fruit and not the seed. Because see, if the right environments are created for these businesses to thrive, when they are doing well, they are more in their capacity to pay their taxes in hand. If they see what is being done in their environment with their tax funding, then they are also encouraged to be more faithful about their taxation. There are so many organizations that have two, three different accounts. You know, depending on what purpose they want to use their account for, they know the one that is correct, which is their own. They know the one they give to the government for the taxation purpose. Now, we need to be able to narrow all those kind of gaps, which is where all these some of these revenues are happening. Government on its side also must be able to show the right direction. When people hear about how government is spending money and if they are not happy about it, they are asking them, so why should I continue to give this government that is not spending its right? More money. So the discipline, the fiscal, financial decision on the side of government is a critical part of making taxation work for us as a people. So what are these things to be put in place by the government to make sure that this comes about? Because for a company to owe up to a hundred million dollars, it means there are some people who might have been collecting some sort of revenue that do not go into the coffers of the government. So how much discipline can be brought into that sector? What is supposed to be done for there to be that much discipline that will make this money get into the coffers of government? Because it's one thing to say we know where the tax money will be coming from. There's another thing to get this money to the actual place that it should go, the destination it should be. So what do you think the government should put in place in terms of monitoring and all that to make sure that the tax get to where they should get to? Of course the monitoring, like you've said, is very important. Government has been talking about performance management and what is performance manager essentially saying, look, I have said I will do this. Then periodically somebody monitors what is going on. I said I will deliver 20 million in January. So at the end of January, somebody who can say how much indeed have you delivered in actual time? Oh, it is 15, I have delivered. Why were you not able to do 20? What accounted for the gap of five? So we do an analysis and we can realign our strategy to ensure that by February we are able to meet the target. So monitoring is very critical. Beyond issues of where we need to deploy IT, capturing the right data of the payee or the payers rather, the right data with the square issues of we still have several accounts with no BPR system, all those things are still there. Beyond all of that is leadership. Leadership is what send the strong message of what, about what will be acceptable in an institution and what will not be. Once leadership is given the right way, follow the right way, automatically line up. I will give you a very good example. When the late Akun Yuli became the director general of NAFTA, some people did not even know that NAFTA existed before Akun Yuli. Akun Yuli did not, it was not the first DJ. He wasn't founded because they had been leaders in that sector. But when she came, it wasn't as if she brought in some new people from his Anumbra home state and whatever, common property. No, the same people. The only thing that changed was leadership. A leadership that says, this is where we are going. So you either ship in or you align or you ship out as simple as that. And what did we see? Result. Result. So beyond all the other things that we need to do and put in place, monitor, deploy the right IT, the leadership must show the right example and lead people in the right direction. When they do that, people are watching. If leadership is not doing the right thing, they also will align accordingly by not doing the right thing because they are watching the post. That is it. Okay. When you say leadership, you have to define it, leadership of what? Leadership of the nation, leadership within the states, leadership within the space, the FIRS space or what kind of leadership do you are you talking about as we wrap up? At all levels. Starting from the present who is on those desk or box. Start from him. The leadership of FIRS itself. The leadership of the various departments on that FIRS. People who are watching, followers who watch what leaders are doing. And once the leaders are setting the right example, they tend to align. That is why you see a particular governor came into CBA. And all of a sudden, the bank examinations that were done like three months before and everything was okay. The same examiner, the same set of people went back to those same banks and they said everything was not all right again. What changed? Nothing. He's the same book. He's the same bank. He's the same examiner. The only thing that changed in that instance was a governor that says, this is where I'm headed. And everybody lined up and they made it happen. Why leadership is very important. And it's at every level, not just at the FIRS level. People are also watching even beyond FIRS boards and their own immediate process. Okay. Well, this is where we'll draw the curtain for today. I would like to thank you for being a part of our program this morning. Thanks for having me. Okay. We've been talking with Bola Horo Olojiedi, a public policy analyst. And we were talking about the promise of the FIRS to boost tax revenue collection by 57% in 2024. And this is where we draw the curtain on today's broadcast, or breakfast rather, on Plus TV Africa. We'd like to thank you so much for being a part of it. Let's do it again tomorrow. My name is Nyamugul Aghaji.