 I'm James Milan, and you are watching our Public Affairs series, Driving Forces, which is a series that profiles those who have chosen to spend part or much of their energy in social activism. Today, I'm joined in the studio by Noah Stang Osborne, who's chosen, well, I think at least one of their chosen paths of social activism is in the transgendered issues. So I just wanted, first of all, to thank you for coming. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate your being here. And I wanted to ask to begin with a kind of, to ask for a kind of gender 101, by which I mean, if you, what are the things that you, as an activist, steeped within the community, would like somebody who knows very little to nothing about these issues, what are the first things that you would want such a person to understand? I think one of the most important things is that you can't tell someone's gender by looking at them. There's no way to know except by asking. And that's a hard concept for a lot of people, because we think, oh, if you identify as a man, you should look in a way that I can identify you as a man. But there's no one way to be a man or a woman or a non-binary person. And I think that's very important. And when you say that, do you mean that it's really that people are making assumptions and not being willing to ask the question? Or is it that people are making assumptions and don't, not that they're uncomfortable asking the question, they just want to go with the assumption? I think the assumption is the most comfortable thing to go with, asking someone can be awkward. And in a lot of situations, there's no real reason for you to know someone's gender. You don't really need to know the gender of the person making your copy. You can use they, them pronouns for them, then you can move on. But if you're friends with someone or you're dating someone, you would want to know their gender and their pronouns and you would want to make them comfortable. And so what, for instance, makes you comfortable? What pronouns do you prefer to use? How do you identify? I use they, them, and he, him pronouns. And I am non-binary and transmasculine. And transmasculine means I guess if we were to think of gender as a spectrum, which is not how I usually think of gender, but I think it's the easiest way to explain how being transmasculine works. I was assigned female at birth when I was born. They said it was a girl, and they were wrong. But I see how they got to that point. And as I grew up, I realized that I was not a girl. And although I am non-binary, meaning I don't identify as male or female, I am closer to the male side of the spectrum. Yeah, so you would be comfortable, again, as you've already said, using pronouns or having pronouns that are he and him as well as they and them? Yes, I am. And I asked, I know that you know Valerie Overton, who I had the pleasure of speaking to recently as well. She is one of the co-chairs of Lex Pride. And I asked her a question I'm going to ask you to. And I hope it's OK, basically, to ask these questions coming from a place where I hope that I'm not ignorant, but I also don't understand things from the inside in the way that you would. Do you have experience in your life so far? Have you found effective ways to help people who don't usually use they and them pronouns and want to? Want to be supportive to those who would prefer to identify that way? Any helpful hints, so to speak, or guidance? I would say the biggest thing is to practice. I think the mistake a lot of people make is they call, like they're mentally still referring to someone by a pronoun they no longer use. And then they expect to be able to switch when they speak out loud. When you think of this person, you need to think, OK, they, if those are their pronouns. And the repetition will help. I know people who have said, oh, I'm an English teacher. You know it's grammatically incorrect. But that's, it's not true. Not only is English a living language, it is still changing, it is still growing. But singular use they pronounce have been around since the 1800s. They haven't always been used to refer to non-binary people, but someone whose gender you don't know. But they are not grammatically incorrect. Is that right? So in fact, they and them has been used for hundreds of years when a person is not sure of the gender of the person that they're referring to? Yes, like for example, if you found a wallet on the ground or something, you could be like, oh, whose wallet is this? You know, I hope they come back to look for it. And that would feel natural. You might look inside and see an ID, and that would change your perception. But if you really didn't have any information of them, you would probably use they then pronounce. Right, we certainly, I see what you're saying, because we all have a habit of using they and them to be impersonal. We don't know who it is we're talking about. Oh, they say such and such. But in this case, again, attaching that to specific people who are singular individuals is, again, awkward for many, many folks. And I hear you, practice, practice will help. So tell us a little bit about, because we are always interested in this series and in general, in finding out about people's particular journeys to get to where they are now. And in your case, just tell us a little bit about how things have gone in your life so far to get you to a place where you identify yourself as a transgender activist. So I, many people knew they were transgender from a young age, and I don't think that I was one of those people. My mom says that she knew that I was transgender from when I was very young, because when I was younger, I told her that when I grew up, if I developed breasts, I would cut them off. Oh, wow. And for her, she was like, oh, like, I might be raising a transgender kid. And she was not bad about it or anything. But my biological father was very much against transgender people, and he helped raise me until he lost custody of me when I was 14. And so he had a lot of these views about how transgender people are just genuinely bad people. And that's what he told me a lot as I was a kid, that they only wanted to use the bathroom to hurt children, that you shouldn't use their pronouns. And so I never imagined as an elementary schooler or a middle schooler that I would be transgender. And after he lost custody, I started meeting more queer people, and I started realizing, OK, he was very wrong about everything. And when I was 16, I came out to my mom, and I was like, I think I'm going to use they pronouns and she pronouns. And that changed into me using they pronouns. In the neo-pronoun Z, which is spelled X-E, so it was Z-Zim, Z-er, in a sentence that would be like Z is currently doing an interview. It is Z-Zir decision to do this interview. And now I'm using. I'm interviewing Zim. Yeah. And now I use they and he pronouns. I didn't, Val is the one who really introduced me to giving speeches and being on panels. I didn't know Lex Pride was a thing until one day when I was volunteering at the farmers' market, they had a tent there. And I was really interested, well, partially because it's my job to make sure everyone has what they need. But also because I'm queer and I didn't know there was this kind of support in Lexington when I had come out as a queer person when I was 13, actually not as transgender. But I was like, I think I like girls. It didn't go very well for me. And so I didn't know that Lexington had this kind of support. And I started going to meetings and originally I just wanted to work with kids. I wanted to help run a support group for young, like questioning children. And one day Val said, can you be on this panel? And I agreed to it and it went really well. And that was two years ago when I was 17. And since then I've done panels and I've given speeches with Lex Pied and for Transitive Remembrance. And I also worked with Yes On 3 to try to convince people to not take away what rights transgender people currently have. You know, I'm struck by the fact that your reaction, even as a young teenager, was I wanna work with people who are, you know, for whom I can help them. Like I've just been through something or I'm going through something. It's not, like you just said, it didn't go well for you. Things don't go well, things are difficult. Things are hard, you find strength in yourself, et cetera. All that is a great personal story of growth. But the fact that your reaction to that would include, hey, I wanna get involved helping others similarly situated to be able to navigate this given what I've learned and what I know and what I have in me. Again, that's the kind of thing that folks that we talk to through this series, that's a common theme that you turn your own experience and the adversity that you deal with in your life into a desire to work on behalf of or with others. Again, to make things a little easier, perhaps, for them. Is that, am I overstating it or? No, I think you're right. Ever since I was young, I've known that I wanted to help kids and help make sure that they had a better childhood than I did. And that's why I'm in school. Yeah, so you said you're in school. Where are you in school? I am an art therapy major and biology minor at Lesley University in Cambridge. And is that something that you also knew from an early age that you would wanna do or? I knew I wanted to work with kids and in psych when I was 13, but I didn't know art therapy was really a thing that someone could major in until I was 17 and had already been accepted to Lesley. And I decided I wanted to work as a guidance counselor because my college essay was about how I would improve an elementary school so that school can be like a safer, more comfortable place for children to be in. And Lesley really liked the essay that I wrote and it made me think, well, maybe I can change schools. Like maybe this doesn't just have to be some sort of hypothetical. Like I could help from the inside out. Yeah, I mean, I am interested to know. So I mean, obviously, it's still relatively fresh in your mind, I assume, you being young as opposed to some of us. Still relatively fresh in your mind, your own experience and the experience of children at different stages of their schooling. So in other words, elementary school, middle school, high school, those are our divisions. Are you, do you have opinions about where we need to start making changes to make things better? Is it as early as elementary school that we really need to concentrate our efforts? I think it is. I'm always inspired when I go to speeches and I get to talk to teachers and educators after and they say, hey, these are the things we're doing. And it's like, wow, this would have meant so much to be like 10, 15 years ago. And I think some of the stuff that is happening right now and some of the stuff I'd like to see more is more gender neutral bathrooms, more casually using they, them pronouns. So I know some people who will just include them in math problems, like Noah has 10 apples if they give five of those to Joseph. How many apples do they have left? Just small stuff like that really makes a difference. And another reason I want to work in schools is because as a kid, I didn't know that many disabled adults. And I definitely did not know transgender adults. And I think transgender adults. And I think that being able to see people who are like you as a child is very important. So you can see that there are different ways to be an adult. You don't have to grow out of it or something. Yeah. So when you think about your future, it will include either as therapy, therapist, art therapy or guidance counseling or something working with kids in these ways again to help their own journeys be a little bit easier than they would otherwise be or than you endured. How do you see the activism part of your current life moving into the future? I'm not sure how it would work in the like very distant future. For the more short term future, I'm excited to continue giving speeches and being on panels. I think that's what I'm good at. And I think it's helpful and like it feels good. I like giving speeches. I like being on panels. I like talking to people afterwards. That's my favorite part, always just connecting with people. And what are the kinds of events that you would give speeches at or talk on panels? Who are the audiences? What, you know, how much do you feel like you are validated by the reception that you're getting versus having to deal with people who just don't get it, kinds of things? I think that the audience, so I've spoken at Transday of Remembrance a few times and I did panels with Yes on Three and I've done some smaller events just like where they would watch a movie about transgender people and then they could ask questions afterwards. And I think the audiences at those events, they are really, they want to learn more and I think that's good. Like the intent is there, they're there to learn but they can still say some very hurtful things. At the last speech I gave, I wore earrings and I had a lot of people come up to me afterwards and tell me that I looked like a girl and it was very hard to use my pronouns when I looked like that. But at the end of the day, I'm not a girl. So however I dressed, this is what a non-binary person looks like and the last speech I gave a non-binary person looked like someone wearing octopus earrings. Right, right. So again, it's about, it sounds like it's about acceptance in the most fundamental and also the broadest way. Again, not making assumptions, instead finding out what the reality is for whoever it is you're interacting with and accepting and respecting that. Definitely, and I think what's hard for some people is acceptance in most cases has to come before understanding. I don't need an ally who knows all the lingo or who knows all the words I use to describe my gender. I just need someone who's willing to be like, okay, if this is what makes you comfortable, then I can do that because there's a lot of words to know. Like I transmasculine five years ago, I didn't know what that word meant, but if you can still see me and just be like, okay, I know that Noah isn't a girl and everything else about this kind of confuses me, but I know that it would make Noah uncomfortable if I use she pronouns for them and so I won't. It can be that simple. Well, it is, I mean, it is both simple and incredibly challenging for people. But I think that you're absolutely right that, and I'm so glad that you put it that way because that's a very simple. Acceptance comes before understanding and if you can start with acceptance, maybe there's a better chance you get to understanding for sure, but at least for you in interacting with others as you move through your life, being able to count on acceptance would change, I assume, your daily experience. It would change everything. Let me ask you to, again, this I know, there's no easy answers to these things, but again, thinking forward for a sec, what are you most optimistic, what gives you the most optimism or hope and also the converse, what do you worry about or concern, are you concerned about or really hard to see how that will get better? So both the light and the darkness, what do you see going forward? I think I'll start with the light. It definitely inspires me when I get to see other activists doing amazing work. You had Valerie Overton here. She's amazing. She is the reason that I really feel safe to give speeches because she's at every one of those and sometimes I need to talk to her after about things that happened and she's always amazing when I get to hear about the work that's being done in schools. And speaking to people who had an easier coming out experience than me always really helps. And right now I have a very accepting family. My mom, my brother, my grandparents, they are all doing their best to use my pronouns but it took a little time. So seeing other people have an easier coming out experience definitely gives me hope. Some of the less bright stuff, I still experience a lot of transphobia just in my everyday life with stuff as simple as bathroom use. At my school I use the men's room and usually that's fine. All the students are fine with me in the men's room. When you say all the students are, does that mean that the staff or the adults, so to speak, less so? Definitely, most of my teachers have been men. So most of my teachers haven't been shocked to see me in the bathroom but one of my professors this year has only called me she all semester no matter how much I correct him. And if I saw him in the bathroom I'm not sure how he would react. I've had public safety try to prevent me from entering bathrooms. I've had people run in after me and be like, Miss, Miss, do you know what bathroom this is? And it's like, yes, it's the one I've been using for the last year and a half, I got this. So that's hard. And then of course with transgender day of remembrance which was very recently, we say the names of all the people who were killed by transphobia this year, which is as it has been in past year, mostly like trans women of color, especially black trans women. And like in that way I do have some privilege because I wouldn't say I have male privilege but I definitely do not face the discrimination that trans women face. And it hurts to learn about this sort of stuff and to learn about the people who are dying to talk to my friends and hear the stuff they have to go through on a daily day basis. And of course when you go onto the news there's so much false information being spread around about transgender people, about how we're sick or we're dangerous and that is certainly disheartening. I know after I voted in the election that question three was up. I cried, I just cried in the car with my mom because for me question three was about, it was about many things, but like personally how it would have affected me is my access to medical care. Question three was about transgender rights in public spaces and hospitals count as public spaces. It would have made it legal for a doctor to refuse to treat me because I'm transgender. And as a chronically ill person who has to go to the hospital more frequently than most people it could have killed me. And that was terrifying to think about that people would have voted in a way that could kill me just because I'm trans. Yeah, it's, you know, there are, I mean easy for me to say I don't have to deal with hardly any of what you have to deal with every single day. But it is definitely an uphill struggle for us as a society. It's certainly most so for folks like yourself who have to navigate this literally every day. And we were talking before we went on camera that there is also the fact that even at Leslie, you know, a college of an institute of higher learning that particularly caters to a segment of the population that wants to in general go into the helping professions, et cetera, that you find that you can't even access and can't get into in a wheelchair a certain number of the buildings. Also trouble with your apartment, you know, access, et cetera. So clearly, like I said, every single day you are facing these things that we hope are going to, we're gonna be able to make better. We, as a group, as a society, gonna be able to make better for you. In that way, on the level of kind of societal change, things that could happen through legislation, et cetera, what do you feel either coming from your own life or what you've observed would be like the most urgent and dramatic place that we could make some real changes? I think for me, something that I think about a lot is police brutality. So like harsher punishments for police who murder unarmed people would make me feel safer as a black disabled queer transgender person who has had interactions with police before as have almost every other black person I know. I think that would be a big thing because I think that would affect a lot of other things. Imagine a situation, well, I'll imagine a situation where if someone did something to me that was illegal that I felt comfortable to call the police that would change my life because you can put laws in place and that's great, but if the people who are supposed to be enforcing the laws aren't, one could argue that they are doing their job, they're protecting private property, they're protecting the rich, which you could argue is the real function of police, but they're not protecting the people and so I think that would be important as a change. Right, I hear what you're saying and certainly that's, it's hard to argue, hard to argue with that. Okay, is there anything that you feel would be important for the people who are watching and listening to know that we have not really covered much in the conversation so far? That there is no correct way to be transgender. What do you mean by no correct way? You mean like there's no single way. There's no, you can't be transgender in a way that's wrong. If you identify as a man and you're wearing a dress, you're a man wearing a dress. The dress does not change your gender. If you identify as a man, but you aren't really sure about he, him, pronouns and you want to use they, them for now, that's okay and you're still a man and that's still okay and I think in some ways people understand transgender as long as trans people continue to fit into the boxes that are set up. Like okay, you're a man as long as you've gone on testosterone and you now have a beard and your chest is flat. Okay, now I can accept you as a man, but you don't need all those things to be a man and you don't need to be on estrogen to be on a woman. To be a woman, you can be a woman with a deep voice. You can be a woman who just wants to wear suits and not only is that okay, that's great. That's part of what I love about the transgender community is there's so much diversity and there's no one way to be trans. No, I want to thank you very much for coming in today for chatting. I have had, it's been good for me and I hope for the audience as well. I think that you speak really, really well from a place of painful, but also optimistic experience that you've had and again, just appreciate your voice being part of this public conversation. And I anticipate that there are a lot of people who are gonna continue to benefit from your own efforts and experience and have an easier journey of their own because of what you do. So keep it up. Thank you and thanks for having me. Yeah, I really appreciate it. For Noah Stang Osborn, I'm James Milan. This is Driving Forces and we appreciate your being here.