 Hey, thanks for being here on today's podcast. Today I'm in conversation with a new friend, a guy called Ken Olin. Ken is a Hollywood star. He is so well known for his body of work as an actor, writer, director, producer, and his current thing that he's working on is a fantastic show that I love called This Is Us. He is the executive producer, director of This Is Us and we spoke about his creative process, some of his history in his work through Hollywood and the different roles he has had, the hearts he's worn. Does he prefer directing over acting? Does being an actor make him a better director and vice versa? Does he have techniques for his approach to his craft that would be an insider information? But lots of you out there that are in that whole world too. Is there a common thread through his life we spoke about that gave him a sense of calling an intuition he'd followed through his life, a narrative to bring him to where he is now. And then he misses that he's had in his life, things that, parts that he didn't get because he was late or he didn't get the, you know, sliding door moment. They say a lot of actors have that. I think all humans have that. But it was just a fascinating conversation about fatherhood, his kids and his aspirations and so on for the future. So you're gonna love this conversation. Don't forget to put a comment, type me in, leave a review, hit subscribe if you're not already. Thank you, enjoy. Hey, my friend, how are you? I'm good, how are you? I am well, thank you. Lovely to see you. I'm happy to meet you. And thanks for your time. How are you? What is happening by the way there in your part of the world, COVID right now? Are you locked down or what? No, we're not locked down. Unfortunately, you know, it seems like people here, I guess you probably have this perspective on our country, but you know, there's a sense of entitlement and arrogance and, you know, I don't quite, there's such a backlash against wearing masks as if it's some kind of imposition on people's freedoms that are, you know, that's arbitrary. So as soon as there's any loosening up of the restrictions, then there's just like a mass exodus to the streets and to the restaurants. You know, we've been working, we've been pretty much working since September nonstop. I mean, we've had, we shut down at Christmas for a couple of weeks and we shut down, we've had to shut down a couple of days because we've had just a few, but if we have anybody test positive, then we usually shut down for a day or two to just, you know, contract trace and everything like that. But we've been pretty good. What are you working on at the moment, Ken? I'm doing a show called This Is Us. Oh yeah, I was going to talk to you about that. I've got a whole lot of questions like, because I love that show. Oh, thanks, thanks. Where are you right now? I'm in England, in the north of England and I watched the show on Amazon. Although Amazon seems to really stagger the episodes. There's weeks go between them posting episodes. I don't know why, so we're all like, it's not on next week, it's been three weeks or whatever, it's pretty random. No, I don't know what, you know, where they are in terms of how they post them. I know, I mean, part of that is the show. We normally were, we've probably finished, even at the most, you know, when we get really into crunch time, we usually have one or two episodes in the can ready to go after the one that airs. We're pretty much airing the episodes as we finish them, when we got so far behind. So for instance, I finished the 10th episode, directing the 10th episode of the season on a, I think it was a Monday, and it was on the following Tuesday. So I mean, that's really, really up against it. So that's what we're dealing with. So that may be part of the reason why it's so underpinned right now. I mean, we're probably gonna do 16 episodes this season. Normally we do 18 and we're finished in February. This year we'll do 16 and we'll be finished in May. So it's been really disruptive. It's such an amazing show, Ken, it really is. Where did the idea for the show come from? Well, Dan Fogelman, who is a creator, the writer of the show, I think he had this idea for a movie. And I think he wrote, I don't know how much he, I think he probably wrote about half of a movie and he put it away. And then whatever that was, five years ago, I guess now, five or six years ago, he took it out, he wrote it as a television pilot and he turned it in. I think some of it came from, he lost his mom when she was fairly young. I think she was in her early 60s, I think. And he, I think part of dealing with that, I think there was some of that. And I think he's been playing in his mind as a writer for a while with the notion of time and the way that it's fluid in the show. But, that's as certain as much as I know, he's fairly circumspect about those things. He doesn't tend to do a lot of self-analysis and when he talks about his creativity, I think he has kind of a life view and that's what you see in the show and whatever that life view is, that's Dan's life view. It took quite a while to get into, the show leaps backwards and forwards on some shows and then to the present. And it took me, I think, a good two seasons to settle into not trying to think, to just watch it continuously, effortlessly, without trying to think, hang on, is that past, is that future? It's that rhythm I to settle into. Are you finding that a lot with viewers? Cause it's a very unusual show that way. Yeah, I think it was always, I mean, when we started out from the beginning, we made a decision that filmically, we did not want to separate those two experiences. We didn't want them to be, we didn't want the past or even the future to be experienced as a flashback or experienced as a flash forward unless there were very, very specific reasons for doing that. I think the idea was that those experiences emotionally take place in whatever moment of time you're experiencing them. So the hope was that we would be able to create that experience for an audience that if you're watching Jack and Rebecca in 1980, their experience of that time was immediate, that it was their present. So that was unusual because normally in all the television I've done, there's some version of pushing into somebody's clothes up and then you go past and you get out of their memory. We deliberately didn't do that. I mean, there was a whole sense early on that we wanted to create a little more of an objectified kind of narrative than the one that you normally see on television. Normally on television, which is somewhat different I think than movies, the narrative is very much from a point of view. It's normally from the emotional point of view, a scene is shot and that's something that you always talk about as a director and you say, okay, whose point of view is this? And that's because the investment is in the characters on a week to week basis and I'm going, so the notion of point of view would just, that was the primary consideration in terms of the way you would approach a scene, which characters point of view is from, and right from the beginning, I think with this, and maybe it's because of Dan's background in movies or right from the beginning, the idea was, let's try to objectify the narrative more than you normally see on television so that I think as a consequence the time thing doesn't feel like it has to be a memory because you're not always shooting over the shoulder of the character. There seems to be a more, I guess, more of a saga. Yeah, yeah. Was it the original idea Ken to write it from, because one of the things I love about the show and people I talk to, very huge fans of it, is it's almost like being in therapy each week because it tracks people's trauma in that adult life to their childhoods and it does that so brilliantly and it doesn't feel indulgent, it doesn't feel overdone, it doesn't feel corny or cheesy. It feels like it's written from someone's soul as if someone's walked that path to be able to write it so well. It feels organic, it feels like me, it feels like people I know. That's one of the, to me, part of the magic of the show is that huge sense of connectivity it has with ordinary people. Where does that come from? It's just brilliant. Well, I mean, I think that's a combination of Dan's voice I think the actors. It's a very warm and genuinely affectionate and kind and generous place to work. I think the actors are, that's a true thing that you see. So part of that, my feeling is like, part of that is just fundamentally the feeling of intimacy. Whatever that is, like when you're watching it, you feel a kind of intimacy. I think that's because the feelings of the respect and the decency of the cast towards one another and towards Dan and the writers and the respect they feel and hopefully an environment that I've helped create is one that is, there is a sense of an unconditional love that connects all these people. And I guess for this group, that unconditional love rather than necessarily coming through the blood or whatever of a family, it comes through a respect for the scripts and the writing. And I think that's part of what you feel because I found in comparison to a couple of other shows that I've worked on, it's not a particularly therapeutic model that we're using. I, this is, you know, a lot of the writers that Dan brought on, the two writers that are his protégés, Elizabeth Berger, Isaac Aptheker, they are people that come, they come first from comedy and comedy will tend not to like drama. They don't like a lot of drama. I mean, Dan doesn't like a lot of drama. It took me a while to get used to it. I kept thinking, okay, there's some something here is not, you know, I kept looking over my shoulder because I come from drama. So it's, you know, paranoia and deceptive and this group is not. And they, oh no, no, no, let's not have a lot of drama in the room. And consequently, there's not a lot of self scrutiny. It doesn't come from that. So it's interesting that you experience that because I think people do experience the show as being, wow, we're so close to these people and looking at the ways in which this influenced that. And like you said, some of the trauma and, but I think it comes from a feeling of closeness to them and a way that you're allowed in in a very safe way despite, you know, the conflicts that they have and how there can be real anger or cruelty or whatever cruelty, maybe not so much, but the real anger or the confusion, I do think there is fundamentally this trust and this love that transcends all of that. And that is probably what people experience more than anything. I feel that too, Ken, because I think it feels so nuanced to me. That's why it's almost like, I don't know how nuanced can be scripted, but so how do you get it in there? What I mean is, especially in Milo's character, Jack, it feels like Les is a lot more with Milo. I don't know how he does that. It is, it is a look, it is. We talked a lot about that early on, you know, I love working with Milo. Milo and I are very, very close. One of the things, and this evolved to some extent was, you know, as when the show began very early on and one of the first scripts that we did, one of the things I talked about was that I felt his character had to be different than Mambi's character and basically the three kids in that I thought he could not be as, he was not as verbal. That was fundamentally what I felt. And I think that that's something that Dan really took the heart and we talked about that, that it was really interesting that his, you know, I mean, Justin Hartley, brilliant and Sterling and Mambi and Chrissy and Chris, I mean, they're all so dexterous verbally and so smart and they're comedy the way they use, and one of the things we kept talking about, Milo and I, he comes from a different place and I think that's something that he really, okay, and there is a more, for lack of a, probably a more sophisticated term. There is something working class about him. He is a more of a working class individual and that's very, you know, that's nuanced for him because it has nothing to do with intelligence. It just has to do with the things that are at his disposal. And then he has these three kids that are, you know, just wildly articulate, worldly, sophisticated, affluent, you know, and he is, he's a little more of the salt of the earth, you know, I mean, Milo is fabulous, so. To what degree, I mean, I was gonna ask you this, I'm fascinated to know from you, Ken, coming from an acting background yourself now. I heard Milo on a panel discussion and he talked about Jack is a stoic character, therefore doesn't cry much. Now, does Milo decide that? Do the actors decide what to bring to that character? What is that scripted? I think it's probably, you know, it's a little bit of an organic evolution. I think that, I don't know whether the decision was made, you know, he should or shouldn't cry as much, but the decision as it evolved was that those things are not as accessible to him. And then, you know, the way Milo and I, when we're working together, the way we modify that, is more specific to the moment. I think, you know, Milo brought a lot of that to the work in terms of the stoicism, but I think part of it just came from Jack's, in terms of his background, which is there, which Milo didn't create the background, I didn't create the background, Dan created this background, is a character who was damaged, who grew up with an alcoholic, and who does not have, you know, who self-medicated for years. But I don't think he has had the access to those things. You know, I don't think this is not a character who's owned therapy, but I think that, you know, he, I don't think he had the, I don't think that would have felt safe to him. I mean, that he had access to those emotions. You know, one of the most brilliant things still in the show is that scene that he did in the pilot, you know, when he's, he cannot find the words. All he has is that, you know, which we could have continued to work on and we've talked about it and used as a template, but you know, he only has this kind of certainty, this blunt certainty. And he doesn't have room for all of the different, you know, the shadings of those things of experience as opposed to Mandy's character or certainly Sterling's character. You know, Sterling's always crying. It's like, stop it. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. How the hell did you find such an amazing cast? I mean, seriously. That was Dan and that was Dan and Glenn Fakara, John Reckworth, that was the pilot, you know. I mean, do these people literally audition? I mean, because I think, well, you could have missed these people then. You can't imagine anybody else playing it. You're absolutely right. I think that too. This is, and by the way, these ensembles like that, I mean, I've been fortunate. I think I've been part of that when I did this show called 30 Something. Yes. I saw that, yeah. That and I, you know, we all, that was one of those ensembles that it's, I don't know what it was because it's not as if, oh, you know, the seven of us were so similar or, you know, we were all like, we all knew each other. We all loved each other. We all went to college together. It was just something that, and this group that was put together, it's like, you know, there are cast members that are closer than other cast members. There are real friendships. And then there are just real, okay, we're companions, we work really well together. We're collaborators, but there's something about the chemistry of this. Right. Is, you know, that's happened once, maybe twice in your life. Like it's just an extraordinary group. And it is that way. It is just that way. And a lot of that comes from the top. A lot of it comes from Dan Fogelman, an environment that he creates and a real fundamental decency and honesty and support. You know, that's rare, but I think you're right. Like, wow, you could have missed this. I mean, you just don't know that it's going to happen like that. And you think, hi, as much as, you know, people say, oh, we have a no asshole policy or, oh, you know, this is, I've worked with this person. You just don't know that there's a lot of chemicals that go into this chemistry. Exactly. Yeah. Do you think being an actor can make you a better director? If so, why? I think it makes me a better director of actors. I'm not self-conscious about the language I use to communicate with actors. I think so much of the time people struggle with actors because they become very self-conscious. They believe that they're, and actors are, you know, as any really creative people they have their things that go along with being a good actor and being in the right place emotionally to do good work and, you know, the talent, what comes along with that kind of talent. But I think a lot of times people are nervous with actors because they don't have a language. There is something about someone who is in a kind of heightened emotional, sensitized state when they come to work, which is so different than the way most people come to work. An actor has to be very, they have to be in a place of being sensitized to do good work. And that's a complicated sort of thing sometimes to deal with. A lot of the time, you know, and the actors that, if you talk to the cast about working with me, they'll imitate me. And I seem like wildly inarticulate. I don't complete sentences. They laugh, I mean, I seem so much more eccentric than I feel like I am in my life. And I think part of why I work well with them is that sometimes it's about just the way I sound. Or I'm merely trying to motivate them and communicate something to them that they can then incorporate, integrate, and then bring forward in terms of their performance. So I think whatever that is, I'm certainly a, I'm a much, much better actor as a director than I was as an actor. I was more self-conscious and stuff. And that intellectual approach or whatever to acting, it was very difficult for me to completely suspend that and give myself up. But I can do that, you know, as a director. And I think that the shortcoming I would say about being an actor and then a director is I might be limited at times in terms of my perspective on material. And I very much approach material, I analyze material from the perspective of an actor. I do know that. And there were all sorts of other things that are difficult because it's a different person out, part of your personality used to direct. I had a lot to learn about that to become a real director. I want an actor to give a truthful performance, an emotionally truthful performance. And also it's a priority of mine that the actor give the most intelligent interpretation of a character's behavior and actions and choices that's there. I always try to lead towards that. But at the same time, I struggled probably more with imposing an interpretation based on the intentions of the writer than a director who is not, doesn't make performance and the truthfulness of an actor's performance the priority. Do you miss acting, Ken? No, I don't. I think sometimes I do. I think, well, like when I see what, you know, I go like, you know, I'm very close with Justin Hartley and very close with my what's up. And I go, man, look at these guys. Like they come in, you know, whatever their new car is, or they get treated incredibly well, or you go anywhere and everybody loves them. And I'm thinking, I'm like, I am in a van driving around all these places, trying to figure out where to where. I'm up really late at night at all the stress of this stuff. And they're like in makeup. And I go, oh man, you know, I remember Harrison Ford when someone asked Harrison Ford, why do you want, you know, why aren't you directing? And he said, well, why would I want to work three times as hard for a third of the money? And, you know, it's like, ah, there's that. But I feel so much more fully engaged. It's fully used up as a director, I always have. And I love directing. And I think actors, especially actors that get to be my age, the ones that are really good, they love acting. They just can't, you know, there are just actors that, and I look at these actors, I look at actors as they go through their 30s and 40s, 50s, 60s, and they're incredible. I mean, Anthony Hopkins, my God. I mean, he's incredible. He loves acting. You know, whatever he says, and I think he does talk about how much he loves her, he talks about how easy it is, like you gotta be kidding me. He loves it. And Stella Adler used to say that an actor has to love the art in them, not themselves in the art. And that's I think the thing that like, I could see why I would really love myself being an actor still. But that's not the same thing as loving that gift. And you look at these people like, you know, like Anthony Hopkins or these actors that are, I mean, you take people like me and Arthur DeCaprio, but they really respect that in themselves. They love that gift. And it keeps them going. And if you don't have that acting, it's just hard. People aren't good at it. They're vain. And I just didn't have that gift. The gift to be able to just take a leap and be fully in it and embrace it. I feel that way more after that. Because I was gonna ask you, is there a common thread through your life, Ken, that you could track back, that creates this narrative of your life? Was it something when you were young, an intuitive thing, a calling, a sense of passion that took you into this world that you're in? Is there a common thread through it? Because what you described there is this internal art that people go into and live from, like Anthony Hopkins and others, they have this internal love of what they do. It's not external. Have you had that through your life? And how has that allowed you to change hats and keep that intact? I always acted like a little bit in school plays, but it was me growing up, that was just never, that was never. It wasn't obvious. No, God. And it was certainly not an obvious direction to take. My family were businessmen and lawyers. And then when I was in college, that I sort of backed into like, I realized it was the only thing I loved doing. And oddly enough, it was, where I went to school, it was, there was a club. There wasn't, there weren't like, it wasn't an acting program. So we were very independent. I didn't have teachers, which is probably a fortunate thing because when I finally did have acting teachers, they were some of the best acting teachers in the world because they were, you know, they were in their own studios. In this club and I would act and do that, I directed this play, because it was part of, so I said, I'll direct the play. It was almost terrifying to me because it was so consuming emotionally and physically. I was so, it was like I just, I was just deeply immersed in it. I had no tools. I didn't, it was, all I had was this obsession and passion. And I didn't, so it scared me and I, but I stayed with acting until eventually, you know, I was in a position to direct. But I think from that moment on, then it felt like a call, like it was the only thing that I loved. I was, and it was so weird because I loved it. And it was so, like, you know, it was like putting on clothes that were like, wait, this is not, this isn't normally how I would dress. It would be like for me to be dressed. Now I've dressed basically the same way since high school. So, you know, it felt like, wait, being an actor, you know, my mom was like, wait, what? You know, it was just, that was a weird choice. But I just, I loved it. And I don't, I don't even know what I would have done if it hadn't worked out okay. But I didn't know that my talent in the sense that the thing that would really make me, make me happy and keep me going and driving was directing. I mean, acting for me became a bit of a drudgery to use the word run-hour. It was like, it did become for me really like, uh, you know, uh, putting, you know, that, and when you act, do I miss acting? I do. And within, if I, when I ever, somebody sometimes, you know, be working with someone who knows that I did, there's, I don't think like JJ Adams wrote a part on alias for me because he thought that was so funny to see me, you know, act or whatever. But I miss acting sometimes whenever I have until about the first half an hour of makeup. And then I'm like, I don't miss it. I don't, it doesn't, I don't, I can't, I can't ever give myself fully to it. It just doesn't, it just doesn't, but directing, when I, you know, start finding something that I love or, you know, you start watching a show, I just am fully, you know, to, I lose all, I lose all self-consciousness. Like if I, if people imitate me, I sit at a monitor, it's so embarrassing. Somebody, I think Justin filmed me at the monitor and I make all the actors, especially the actresses, which my daughter thinks is really, I act out everything. I'm like going like, and everybody laughs. I was directing alias once and Lena Olin was sitting, no relays, but God, she's awesome. But Lena went to the, and I turn it and it was cut. And she looks at me and she goes, do you do that when I act? And I said, yeah, probably. I just, that's what I mean. I'm doing that more than I lose myself that way. I couldn't lose myself that way as an actor. And that's what the great actors do. You know, I only can do it at the monitor. It's a great response because what you're really saying, especially to the emerging generation, and I say this often to young people, when they say, how'd you find your purpose, your calling? And I'm always answered by following your internal sort of radar, your internal GPS, whatever you call it, which is what you're talking about. This internal desire and love of what you do that is stronger in your directing than it was in your acting. And then finding that space and staying there, it surely must give longevity and more happiness and fulfillment to your life as you age to have made that transition to that sweet spot you're in now. Do you find that with young people? Do you teach, are you a teacher? And are young people struggling with that more? Or have you found that? I think it's a big question there. My generation, your generation, your baby boomers and so on, we didn't have to worry about that to get married, get a job, pay the bills. But this generation are so in tune with this sense of a calling and a passion and a purpose that want to make a difference and do something in the world and deal with world problems. But they don't know how to find which way to pursue that. They're fed up of education, many of them, because the education system is broken. It's just one-size-fits-all. Doesn't celebrate different kinds of intelligence that the kids have. This right-brain generation, my generation was more left-brain logic. These kids are creative and they want connection. So I get that quite a lot, Ken, yeah. So when you said, it's good for them to hear you say what you just said about sitting behind the camera, be it as engrossed in the acting, but from a director's perspective, it's like the best of both worlds you now have. But you have made, it seems to me, you have made peace with this essence of yourself of this is what I love to do. And it comes from inside of you. You don't need to be in front of the camera to fulfill that in you. You're loving it from where you're sitting. And I think the kids to know that, and that's why I said about the track through your life. I think to follow this internal sense of true knock, whatever you finish up calling it, will always put you where you should be, I think. Well, it's so interesting that you're saying that. And I mean, you're so great. I love these questions, you're so supportive. But I noticed with our son, who's in his mid 30s, he was a writer, and he was doing incredibly well. I mean, he was a Hollywood writer on brothers and sisters. He was honest when you make a lot of money in Hollywood. Even the low level, it's still, and he was so unhappy. Part of it was, and this is a curse, I think, it's a curse that is a nice curse when you grow up in Hollywood and your parents have success. For a lot of the kids here, they want that life. They haven't experienced, I don't want my parents' life. I didn't want my parents' life. That was a beginning thing, it's like, whatever, I didn't know at all what I wanted, but I didn't. And he, I think he had the talent or whatever. He was so unhappy. And it took him a long time. He owned a house when he was 29. And he's now a personal trainer in Denver. But he met this woman in Africa. He went to Africa, they traveled. She's a teacher, public school teacher. She's like a superstar public school teacher. And I know what you're talking about. I think in the United States, they're struggling with this probably in a way in Europe, they're not because there's something so spoiled in our country, but this search for what you're talking about is how do we lead a meaningful life to that is a life that is fulfilled. They're not, nowhere near is materialistic. It's not about, they don't need the money. It's not, you know, okay, how do we get by? And he does this training. I think it's been very hard for him to reconcile himself with how different that is than the life, you know, he still, he loves, you know, some of the things he had, like, oh, all that really great sushi you get on the West side of Los Angeles and all, like you can't do those things. But the idea of leading a life in an environment and in a way that makes them happy or healthier is really interesting. I think the problem here is, I don't know here, I see what's happening in Europe and these young people, like you said, who are much more political. I mean, we went through that whole phase where it was, you know, they are, they're searching for some meaning. And that's interesting what you're saying about how do you, it's easy to celebrate someone who finds that in Hollywood because, and I don't think that's that's that thing Stella was saying about love, the art in you, not yourself in the art. If that isn't who you are, I look now, you know what I do, I look now and I envy, and certainly, you know, we'll see what happens, but oh, those young lawyers or whatever, the political, the people that are out there really, oh, they're so, you know, intellectually engaged, it's so fervently engaged with those things, that seems to me like, whoa, that's, that's. But I really think, Ken, honestly, I watch a lot of stuff and I really feel that you are capturing, you are doing that through this is us. It is, it is magnificent. It is absolutely speaking to human needs, it's addressing the race issue, it's addressing abandonment and trauma and loneliness and depression and alcoholism and all those things that it's like watching it, as I said, it's therapy. And as I watch it, I can think of different stages of my life and people I know. And I think for me and like for your son, you mentioned, I think so many people, I think I've got to my midlife and I think so much of my life was lived as someone else's version of me. And then this midlife crisis language is around the idea that someone in your midlife, you wake up to this realization, I have not lived my life. I have lived someone else's version of my life for whatever reason, to people please or to pay the bills. But now I've got less life in front of me than behind me. I need to live my life. And I think that's happening all around the world. This awakening of consciousness, Ken, I think your program absolutely speaks to every time I watch it. I think it's amazing for doing that. So I think you're doing your own version of the lawyer's work sometimes we envy through the program. You really are. Thanks. Thank you for trying. How do you switch off, Ken? What are your hobbies interests outside of? I read a lot. I got a Peloton bike. So I'm trying to get myself back in shape a little bit. I tried to learn how to play guitar when I was in my 40s. I'm not a musician. Are you a musician? No. No, I'm not a musician. But I always had this thing. I so wanted to be a rock and roll guy. So I finally at 47, having no musical background at all. So I got really good at buying guitars. I didn't get very. I mean, I got OK. The problem was it's such a I approached it. I can't help but approach it analytically. And that music as a language, I don't have it. I mean, it's not a I can't let it go. It's like acting. I couldn't just let it go. Like I had a wonderful guitar teacher and we were friends. And he would say, you know, when I would ask him about why something was, you know, why is a chord structured like? And it would be like, just OK, let's just play guitar now for a while. Let's just let's just play it. It was so hard. Oh, Stephen, I don't know if you know Stephen Pressfield heard of Stephen Pressfield's work. Stephen wrote the Bhagavans movie. Oh, OK, OK. Anyway, he wrote so about his creative process and he talks about people have these what are called shadow careers. So they are in the neighborhood of what they'd love to do, but they don't have the courage to step up and do it. And it's quite hilarious because I thought of my own life. You know, it's the things you're drawn to like a guitar. You'd like to be the guy on stage, but these guys finish it with the sound engineer all their life, wishing they were on stage. At least you've done the acting and the directing. You've done both sides of the camera. So maybe you maybe you have a shadow career of a musician somewhere lingering this time yet. I know. I don't think so. It's so much practice, too. You know, that's another thing that was interesting about music. Because what I do, yes, there's a very, you know, I worked really hard. I trained really hard at acting to understand it. But it and I as a director, there's tremendous amounts to learn. But I had never done anything, even though I played sports. I played I played baseball and I played soccer through all through high school and into my freshman year in college. I have never I never did anything that required practice the same way. Right. A gymnast does or a musician does. Right. It's that that was really interesting to me because I would get better. I mean, I definitely could make chord changes better and all of that stuff. That was interesting. Then it became like, no, no, you have to do this for hours, every day. And I think for me, my creative process has always been engaged with other people. That's OK. You know, that's a really deep like a right. I've never been a writer. I have so many things. I know I could write this so much better. Of course, I can't because I can't. But but but that that was a really interesting thing about music of going, you actually, if you practice two hours, you actually get better. Right, right. Like you you can find an actor and that actor can take every class in the world. This person can take every class in the world, do scene study, do it, and they always suck. Like there is something fundamental about that talent that right and directors at some point. Yes, you can learn about lenses. You can learn all of those things. But if your taste and your ability to communicate and your story. No, but if you're a musician, you better practice, right? And, you know, you that was fascinating to me about that. And I, you know, it's like golf, same thing. I guess I never exactly. Yeah, we're hours. You enjoy being a dad, father. Yeah, now I mean, now I'm like dad of these, you know, older kids. Yeah, you know, I am. Are you a father? Yeah, I have eight grandkids, too. Oh, you do? We don't have any. Oh, I think we may be anticipating our first grandchild soon. There you go. Yeah. It was harder for me when they were really young because I had my own ambitions and I was just easily distracted from and very, very close to my kids. My daughter runs our company. I'm very close to my daughter. Nice. Yeah. She's sort of more like my soulmate and my son is very much his mom's soulmate. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Really close by. That's the one thing I don't know that I say, you know, I love being a dad. So it's a really fair question going, you know, I love my children. I didn't love in an active, responsible way being a dad when they were really little because I was so distracted and ambitious. And now sometimes I do. Sometimes it's like, oh, my God, it's like, yeah. You know, and it's weird because we got a puppy. We got a COVID puppy, my wife and I. And I was so aware with this puppy of the different little like when it was like just little stages of development. And I said, this is what's really, this is I didn't have that with our kids. I didn't. I wasn't. I was there. It wasn't that I mean, I was there and I was a loving father, but I wasn't. I I did not take that on equally to Patty. Like I just I didn't. And going with this puppy going, oh, my God, this like this. You can actually see developmental changes in a little creature. And that I go, you know, I I wish I wish that that's I wish I had done that more. I think it would have been good for them and good for me. But we were we're close now. We ever we have a we have a real relationship and they and they know me, you know, they do know who I am. And that's a I think that's a cool thing. You know, that's not speaks to your growth, OK, now you've kept growing and evolving and reinventing and yourself, and I think you're going to love grandkids. Skip kids, go straight to grandkids because the grandkids are all the fun and are the responsibility. And I've got eight. Yeah, the age from my oldest grandchild is nudging 18. My youngest is five, six girls, two boys in the grandkids combo. They all live close by five minutes away. People say, oh, it must be wonderful having your grandkids close by. I'm like, I'm not so sure about that because you're like me and my friend, this big old farmhouse here, well, I can sit in ducts for grandchild random invasions and your whole the whole family is is near you like that. They're literally five minutes. We're like the Walton's Mountain here. That's spectacular. I was 16 when I got married. Our first child was born four months before we got married and three had twins then. So by the time I was 20, I had three kids because we had twins when I was 19. No one saw that coming. So since I was a kid, I've had kids. I'm surprised any of them survived. That's unbelievable. I know. I've been married 48 years. Yeah, this year, 48 years. Yeah, we've been married 39 years. That's amazing. Hey, are you up for a little bit of quick fire before I let you go? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, here's a few quick fire for you. Something people often get wrong about you. When they talk about you or you hear them talking about you, they think you're not as funny or you are funny or you're funny, then they don't. So on, you're short or whatever. I'm more insecure than they think I am. There you go. Interesting. All right, second one. Last TV show you binge watched. The bureau. Mine was Queens Gambit. Did you see that? Yeah, it's good. Have you seen the bureau? Have you watched the bureau? The bureau, just two words, the bureau. Yeah, it's called the bureau. It's French. You can get it on Amazon, I think. I'll look at that again. Thanks for the heads up. I love watching stuff. It's incredible. The bureau, so it's subtitles, is it? Yes. OK. All right, favorite movie. Well, I always say I always say Godfather 2. So I'll say Godfather 2. Great choice. Concert or show, you'll never forget. But you mean to? Seeing The Rolling Stones at Madison Square Garden. Wow. 1972. Wow. It was Mick Jagger's birthday. Wow, what a fantastic memory. Favorite meal? I like cheeseburgers. There you go. Yeah, it's not very grand answer, is it? But it's like the honest truth. Yeah, cheeseburgers. I've had some of the finest meals and thought I've got to get a burger on the way home. What books are on your nightstand, Ken? What you're reading right now that's you're enjoying? I'm just I'm reading a book because I'm thinking of trying to do something with my friend Matthew Reese. It's a very old book. It's called Law. It's called Lost Undercover. It's a little Dell paperback and it's about a FBI agent who pretty much lost his mind undercover. And I've also got the new book by the Nobel Prize winner. It just came out. I can't remember what it's called. I have the Obama autobiography. I just finished reading the Mike Nichols biography, which I loved. And then I have different thrillers. I like thrillers. Speaking of Obama presidents, a lot of us here are very glad that Trump's gone by the way. Yeah, oh, yes. I get myself in a lot of trouble with Twitter about that. I saw some of your tweets and I'm like, go Ken. Yeah, oh, what that man is going to take us if we ever recover from what he says the former guy did to this country. And I can't even imagine what you all in the world thought about what was happening in this country. I mean, it was really stunning, wasn't it? It had to be like to look at God. This is what's happening in the United States. This is absolutely extraordinary. Unbelievable, but now he's threatening. He might be back in a few years. Yeah. I don't think he will. Ken Epitaph, what would you like on your gravestone? Ever thought about that Epitaph? What should we think about Ken when he's gone? What would you like us to think about you kind of thing? It would be nice to be remembered at all. I think maybe that I made some kind of contribution to making people treat each other better, decency and that. Right. Ordinary moments, an ordinary moment, Ken, that lights you up. Like for me, you mentioned the dog. My daughter and son-in-law got a new dog, a COVID dog, as you call it. I tell you, that dog just lights me up. Every time the dog sees me, she goes crazy. No human treats me like that. Yeah, I would say I have these moments. You know what really likes that? I like taking the dog for a walk in the morning. And in California, the morning's nice because it's a little bit cooler in the air. And I love taking this. He's a Cavalier King Charles spaniel. Yes. Taking him for a walk, that kind of lights me up. That's nice. I saw Miss America. I have a home in America. We have a home for 10 years in Scottsdale in Phoenix, Arizona. Oh, really? So because we can't fly, we can't go. But I've so missed going there this year and the weather and stuff and the swimming every day. Yeah, so looking forward to when we get permission to fly again. OK, a couple more. Last time you wrote a handwritten note or letter. A handwritten note or letter? Yeah, right. A handwritten letter for a long time. I probably wrote a handwritten note to my wife, I think on her birthday. I wrote her a note because we couldn't go out or anything. So those are probably the only handwritten notes I write. And lastly, what are you most grateful for, Ken, this past year? Anything stand out for you? You're most grateful for? Like as COVID had hidden sedendipitous gifts and so on because I thought a lot about that. I'm really fortunate to have a job that we have not suffered financially. I haven't been isolated. I'm surrounded by really responsible and really decent people. And I still, even though it's been arduous, I still get to be creative. I still have a creative life. That's great. Really fortunate. That's a great response. Listen, I think, sir, you are a total genius. Honestly, I've looked at your work. I've watched what you've done. I've researched you a lot. I can't believe that. I didn't do a lot. I think this is a gift to the planet. Honestly, it's not just a TV show to me. It is a gift to the planet. It's doing a lot for us humans out here beyond what perhaps you understand. And I talk to so many people who are in love with the show. So that internal love you talked about earlier that you feel it's coming through into the whole thing. It's infused with it. So thank you for the gift of that show to the world. Seriously. You're welcome. I really thank you. You're such a cool guy. Much love to you and to your family and all the great work you are doing. And thank you again for giving me your time today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. What a pleasure. It made my week. Thanks, my friend. All my people here in Europe and England are going to absolutely love this. I just know it's going to be an absolute knockout show for everybody. Thank you, my friend.