 Welcome to another national security college public seminar. I'm Roger Bradbury I'm the director of research at the college and I'd especially like to welcome the diplomatic community and Some of the public service that are here and as well as as well as students This is this is going to be a very interesting evening as a Sumtime Marine scientist I'm always fascinated by the fact that We've got a two-ocean Navy, but we've actually got three oceans And one one that we don't look after It's almost as if Were we in America we weren't worrying about this the patch of ocean the sea lines of communication between say, California and Hawaii or California and Alaska So so we've got an oceans problem And then there's a person who likes very interested in climate change We have to our south as part of our territory one of the great engines and Drivers of climate change The thing that moderates and also accelerates changes in the world's client That's something we don't we don't think about as part of as one of our problems one of our terrorist order of problems quite enough and then as a person who's interested in strategic affairs and international relations I'm interested that a lot of our strategic analysts look north to some of the conflicts and and Troubles a Fairway away in South China Sea perhaps or a North Korean Peninsula and yet Next to our territory our territorial neighbors Have overlapping territorial claims. We have a whole bunch of Claimant states Butting up against us in our in our in one of it in our territory and I think and we don't pay that nearly enough attention so Anactica as a strategic issue is a very important issue and we've got someone who has Experienced non-parade to to talk about it for us tonight Tony Press was former director of the Australian Antarctic Division and a former head of the Antarctic CRC he's going to talk about the strategic our strategic interests in that part of the world tonight and After the talk we'll do our usual Q&A and I should remind you that the talks Being videoed so be able to see them You'll be able to see them or tell your colleagues about them afterwards and they can they can refresh themselves with the proceedings tonight So I'd like to hand over to Tony, please. Thank you for coming. It's I know a Fair smattering of people in the audience, but there are many I don't know so I hope you all find this at least a little bit interesting and I've just finished a major report for the government on Australia's Antarctic interests Which gave me? Besides far too much work to do it also gave me a concentrated piece of time in which I Was able to go back through our historical political and scientific engagement in Antarctica and and put it Put it in in perspective and what I want to do tonight Is to give you that perspective about Australia's engagement in the Antarctic? historical scientific political and cultural to a certain extent and then Touch on some of the issues that are emerging in the Antarctic sphere and why the ultimate conclusion of my recent report to the government is that Australia should reassert publicly its its Antarctic interests and should be very forthright About our engagement in Antarctica and and Why? We are there and why it's important for Australia Roger talked about Being a free ocean nation well Australia has the third largest marine jurisdiction in the world Not counting Antarctica So if you discount Antarctica, Australia still has the third largest marine jurisdiction in the world. It has the largest extended continental shelf in the world and a third of our marine jurisdiction lies below Australian mainland So we have a huge area of responsibility to our south And we've had that interest and that responsibility for over a century even predating Douglas Mawson's epic heroic era adventures of science and exploration in Antarctica the first Australian to land on the on the Antarctic continent did so 1898 Tasmanian which was always a good thing and Australia's engagement has been in both science exploration discovery And possession since that period of time Douglas Mawson In 1911 although he never had lettuce patent from the crown on his own initiative claimed Antarctica for the British Empire and her dominions beyond the sea and then again in in 1928 with lettuce patent formally claimed Parts of East Antarctica for Australia the first comprehensive map ever made of Antarctica that's it there 1939 showing the Australian Antarctic Territory the Norwegian claim that Taylor Delay and The Ross Sea dependency which is now New Zealand and and the UK claim in the Weddle Sea was produced here in Canberra by the Surveyor General 1939 and it was the it was the first comprehensive map of Antarctica and it shows the Australian Antarctic Territory Which is For those who are interested and I know Roger's interested in maps It's the size of Australia minus Queensland. So That's how much How big Antarctica is the Australian claim to Antarctica is 42% of the Antarctic continent prior to the Second World War the Era of Antarctic exploration was really about discovery It was also about resource exploitation whaling in particular also sealing But after the Second World War There was a strategic interest Emerging in the Antarctic particularly the interplay between the Soviet Union and the US and the the Western allies being very concerned about the Soviet Union's interests in the Antarctic And from that period But from the end of the Second World War through to about 1956 57 there were a number of initiatives kicked off about how to deal with what was Called the problem of Antarctica and the problem of Antarctica was this emerging Cold War feeling of competition between the US and Russia The Soviet Union in Antarctica The interests of the claimants say the claimants being Australia New Zealand France Norway United Kingdom Argentina Chile and Their interests and then this emerging interest in Antarctica from from the Russians and It wasn't until the mid 1950s That a clear way forward of how to think about how the problem of Antarctica might be sold Started to emerge and it actually emerged through a science initiative and 1957 1958 the international Geophysical year where the Iksu the international Union of Science organizations got together to launch the international Geophysical year and Their one of their Grand projects was to look at the Geophysical environment of the poles And Antarctica being one of them in 12 countries Engaged in that activity including Russia all the claimants and The United States and It was from that initiative that the Antarctic Treaty Which was signed in 1960 came into force 1961 Which is where the Antarctic Treaty Originated I just want to concentrate here a bit on the claims to and to Antarctica. You can see that below the Antarctic a bit below Argentina and Chile Along the Antarctic Peninsula there are three overlapping claims. They're the claims of the United Kingdom Chile and Argentina all of the other claims in Antarctica are non-overlapping and they are from here around New Zealand Australia France Australia again and Norway so 12 countries participated In the international Geophysical year and they're the first 12 countries you can see on that list and They are the countries the original signatories to the Antarctic Treaty Australia Argentina Belgium Chile France Japan New Zealand Norway Soviet Union as it was at the time Russia now South Africa the United States The United Kingdom they're the original signatories to the Antarctic Treaty so back in the 1959 1960 when the Antarctic Treaty was being negotiated 12 countries had direct Interests in the Antarctic Since then all of those countries on the left There the orange countries have all joined The Antarctic Treaty and and have active Antarctic programs all of those countries in this row Signatories to the Antarctic Treaty, but don't have active science programs and therefore aren't involved in decision-making in Antarctica so the Antarctic Treaty has gone from a small group of 12 countries to 54 signatories 29 Consultive parties, I think I've got that right And the the last one being the Czech Republic and the last Signatory which is which is very interesting for for geo Political and regional interests the last two signatories Malaysia and Pakistan the Antarctic Treaty is often criticized by academics for being a small club but in fact The Antarctic Treaty covers much more than half of the global population Is shown on on that map there and the Antarctic Treaty is open to any Member of the United Nations, so any member of the United Nations can join the Antarctic Treaty. It's not It has no veto on Signatories now the Antarctic Treaty is is as a political and International instrument is very very important to Australia because it does one Significantly strategically significant thing It makes all of that region below 60 degrees south Below Australia but all around the Antarctic continent and Antarctica itself from 60 degrees south is demilitarized it's Nuclear weapons free and because of that Australia can as Roger said be a to ocean Navy and not Concentrate that much at least in a direct military sense in a defense fighting sense on The southern ocean and Antarctica we do have strategic interests there and some of those When some of those may require assets, but but not for fighting wars that was really important in that Cold War period and It's going to become increasingly important in years to come the fact that Antarctica is demilitarized will be hugely significant in the next 10 20 30 50 Years and beyond The Antarctic Treaty has a number of other articles to it, but the Too most important That there is free exchange of scientific information in Antarctic research and that The interests of the claimant states are protected by article 4 of the Antarctic Treaty that is the treaty does not dismiss Antarctic claims It doesn't recognize Antarctic claims either It recognises that some countries and they are Russia The Soviet Union was Russia and the United States assert the rights to claim any or all of Antarctica And it also protects the interests of those Countries that don't recognize any Antarctic claims and what the Antarctic Treaty did which was really important is That it set aside Those arguments about territoriality in Antarctica. They didn't set aside the claims Some academics assert it set aside the arguments about the claims and so the Antarctic Treaty In that sense is also really important for Australia And others because it protects Australia's Antarctic claim in the 80s there were a number of reports to government about Australia's Antarctic interests and and how they should be expressed and in 1989 the government defined explicitly what Australia's Antarctic policy interests Were and they are to preserve sovereignty over the Australian Antarctic territory To maintain Antarctica free from strategic and or political confrontation To protect the Antarctic environment To take advantage of Antarctica's opportunities for science and research To be informed about and be able to influence developments in a region proximity to Australia and to derive any reasonable economic benefits from living and non-living resources in the Antarctic Treaty area Excluding mining and that's because Australia had just led a major international along with France and the assistance of Spain major international effort to Abandon Minerals Convention which had been negotiated and to put in its place and a comprehensive environmental protocol to Antarctica now successive governments since 1989 Have reasserted those interests, but they're not publicly very well known and One of the one of the recommendations that I'm making in my report is in fact that the government explicitly come out and make these known. I've also recommended there be a an additional Interest and that is an interest that Australia protects The Antarctic Treaty system We'll see where that goes, but I think it's it's important that Australia sees That the Australian population sees explicitly What governments have decided about our interests in the Antarctic? and in 1998 the last time 1997 sorry this was 1998 and The last time the government actually had a comprehensive look at what we were doing in Antarctica. It's established a number of goals for the Australian Antarctic Program Maintain the Antarctic Treaty system and enhance Australia's influence in it Protect the Antarctic environment understand the role of Antarctica in the global climate system and undertake scientific work of practical economic and national Significance and I think those Goals are as relevant today as they were in 1998 They're not that different from William Clinton's signature to this policy that the Americans have about their Antarctic interests although Australia's interests are fairly explicitly to do with its territorial claim as well, but Protecting the unspoiled environment preserving and pursuing scientific research maintaining Antarctica as an area of international cooperation for peaceful purposes, etc. So US Australia many other countries have got specific Statements about their Antarctic interests that are along those lines and they're consistent with their obligations under the Antarctic Treaty so in context I Always try and summarize our view of Antarctica There's Australia looking from the bottom of Antarctica Antarctica is close to Australia It's it's peaceful it's safe we have very deep historical connections to the Antarctic It's economically important to us One of our most profitable fisheries one of Australia's most profitable fisheries is the two fish fishery the Antarctic two fish fishery and It's actually the Patagonian two fish fishery, but in some Antarctic waters Caught that and Antarctica is important for Australia And it's important for science and I get on to science in a minute Australia's a claimant We're an original signatory to the Antarctic Treaty We're a very important player in Antarctic affairs and we have our own strategic Antarctic interests, so we should be actively Engaged in Antarctica and we should not Deliberately or accidentally disengage from Antarctic affairs so science Well One of my first recommendations in the report I Had to modify because of the recent decision by the government to fund the replacement of Aurora Astralis, but Australia's one of Australia's very very few Bluewater marine research vessels the icebreaker Aurora Astralis is coming to the end of its life And in the last budget the government has Committed to replacing that vessel that will be a very very very big project But it's important for Australia and for those countries that we work with in East Antarctica for Australia to have Comprehensive Access to the Antarctic continent from the sea and be able to take undertake scientific research in the southern ocean In the sea ice and along the coast of Antarctica Not only for ourselves, but for assisting other Antarctic countries to also Work in Antarctica, so that's a major Strategically important decision about our efforts in in the Antarctic that new vessel is scheduled to come online 2019 I think It's it's in the tender process at the moment But leaving aside our Territorial claims leaving aside our historical interests in the Antarctic leaving aside our Physical strategic interests in the Antarctic. I assert that we should and would and must Be engaged in Antarctic science even if any of those other things didn't matter and that's because Antarctica is hugely important in the global climate system and We know very very very little about Antarctica this map here on the left-hand side is Looking through the ice at the bedrock of East Antarctica the Australian Antarctic territory those lines are lines flown from a aircraft doing geophysical Survey and what That shows you is Okay, here's the coastline there the white bits of water the dark bits Above sea level the darker. They are the more above sea level. They are the bluer. They are the more below sea level And what that shows is Is that there's this huge area of east Antarctica about a third of east Antarctica is actually grounded Below sea level and we didn't know that five years ago This is research that's being Published that's been published or being published In the last few years and if you look at it another way, that's what it would look like If you were looking at it at ground level from looking at the mountains below the ice Now that might be a cute bit of Geology, but it's also really important because ice Grounded below sea level Will contribute to sea level rise because when Water's warm and The sea melts that ice underneath it retreats And it will keep retreating until it hits rock if the coastline was here Then that's where the ice melt would stop, but it's not coastlines hundreds of kilometers inland What we didn't know Is what we didn't know ten years ago what we didn't know five years ago is that there is a potential for rapid destabilization of parts of east Antarctica and a Contribution to sea level rise Comparable to what we're observing at the moment in west Antarctica and around the Antarctic Peninsula Antarctica is also important Because it gives us a unique view of past climate We can now go back Through the ice cores in Antarctica and get a climate record that goes back to 860,000 years which is the oldest climate record so far and there's a National consortium that Australia's involved in there will be an international meeting in Hobart early next year where we'll be looking for Ice that's more than a million years old and this is really important Because the general climate cycles that we've been involved in over the last 901.1 million years have been about a hundred and forty thousand hundred a hundred and forty thousand years Apart between warming and cooling and warming and cooling before that was about 40,000 years apart and We're looking to find a nice core record that goes back to that 40,000 year cycle to see whether that's directly related to conditions in the atmosphere particularly carbon dioxide Australia has In the Australian Antarctic Territory to place called Lord Dome the very very very best temperature records for Antarctica over the last 2000 years And so there's a lot we can learn and from this temperature record at Lord Dome one of the things that we've discovered in the last decade and and are still discovering are the teleconnections between climate in Australia and Climate in Antarctica and we know now that for instance the drought That's been happening in Southwest Western Australia for the last 30,000 30 30 years not 30,000 30 years is actually the biggest drought In the last 800 years we're able to tell that because when it snows heavily at Lord Dome It's a dry in Southwestern Western Australia and you can go back through the record and reconstruct Southwestern Western Australia's Climate record from the ice in Antarctica and we're now Finding those same kinds of climate records for the Murray-Darling Basin and eastern Australia So there's much we can learn about our own economic Environment agricultural economic environment from that kind of research in the Antarctic and that's why I say that We'd be there anyway We'd be in Antarctica Anyway, even if we didn't have those Antarctic territorial claims so I'm not going to question yet. What does the future hold? well Antarctica I think will remain for many many many decades to come a Place of science peace and cooperation. I don't think there is any threat To that at all. There's often speculation in the media About the interests of some countries Russia's often named others are named about their interests in mineral resources in the Antarctic and I think it is true that some countries Being less than transparent in the way they conduct some of their science In in Antarctica and I think that's actually an issue that needs to be addressed politically and diplomatically But I don't think the ultimate result of that will be opening of mining in Antarctica at least in the next numbers of decades It's often said that the Antarctic Treaty expires in 2048 or the ban on mining expires in 2048 and then there'll be a free-for-all in the Antarctic well That's not correct either the ban on mining in the Antarctic is indefinite It's perpetual The only thing that happens or could happen is that there could be a review of That of all of the Madrid protocol and the ban on mining in 2048 if anybody called for that review But the mathematics of overturning the mining ban Absolutely formidable and It would require ultimately every country that was a signatory to the Antarctic Treaty in 1990 Would require every one of those countries To agree if one country didn't agree and didn't enact the Requirements for overturning the ban Then the ban would remain in place what might happen at that stage would be a destabilization of the polity of The political structures in that in the Antarctic Treaty system, but I doubt that I think The strength of the Antarctic Treaty has been that it's weathered many political storms and Come through them stronger than than before those storms commenced. I think the the most likely Area of conflict In Antarctica is actually in the Southern Ocean for marine living resources and there are There are potential Marine living resources in Antarctica that are hugely Underexploited the Krill fisheries one of the Krill fisheries the largest Underexploited fishery in the world It has a sustainable yield of somewhere. I mean a very conservative sustainable yield of somewhere but Over four million tons a year and it's currently being harvested at about a 200,000 tons a year, so there's a huge potential for expansion of the Krill fishery before this conflict I Think that the That Destabilization in that in that marine living resources areas more likely to come from countries Either within or without of the Antarctic Treaty Not abiding by the regulations put down by the Commission for the conservation of Antarctic Marine living resources, so My view is that that threats over living resources conflict over living resources is going to Be more likely and probably occur well before conflict Mineral resources in the Antarctic and I I Don't see other regional conflicts Spilling over in More than a symbolic way Into the Antarctic Treaty system The Russian Russians and the Americans were able to talk to each other all through the Cold War in the Antarctic Treaty and UK and Argentina We're able to talk to each other while they were throwing rocks in a conflict over illus melvinus for an island and I Think that that it's unlikely that other wider geopolitical interests Conflicts will spill over into the Antarctic But more than symbolically spill over to the Antarctic environment. I'd be interested I will be a casual observer and seeing how Ukraine and Russia deal with fishing The next Kamala meeting. I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that But I don't see these things spilling over into deep conflicts within the Antarctic Treaty itself So let me conclude By saying two things The first is that Australia should be actively engaged in Antarctica and in science in Governance and In diplomacy and we need To match our investment in that engagement with our aspirations and my personal view is That our aspirations are this big and our investments about that big and We really need to step up to the plate and invest in the science and the diplomacy that protects our interests and One of the most important interests to protecting in Antarctica is to protect Not only our sovereignty, but also the Antarctic Treaty system because it's through that that Australia's National strategic interests in Antarctica will always be protected and I'll leave it Tourism Okay, I Think there are two issues to do it with tourism to put tourism in perspective most of the tourism 97% of tourism occurs on the Antarctic Peninsula and the global economic crisis actually not the win out of the sales of tourism and so Back before the global economic crisis tourism numbers in Antarctica were about 40,000 a year And as I said 97% Going to the Antarctic Peninsula, but of those Around about 90% of those actually were vessel based so they never They were never on land more than for the occasional visit that doesn't mean that there aren't potential impacts of tourism The two biggest potential impacts of tourism Direct degradation of the physical environment trampling spreading of disease introduction of of alien organisms and Then the other The other effect of tourism are the are the unforeseen accidents where you get a vessel hold And and an environmental disaster ensuing We almost saw one of those this year down in an Antarctica from a group of tourists and calling themselves the The Australian tactic expedition That was that was a Potential situation that never eventuated And so my view is that the level of tourism and the kinds of Direct impacts that tourism Has can actually be quite easily managed And they are being managed at the moment through two sets of institutions one is the Antarctic Treaty itself And the measures that is it has in place to regulate tourism and also by the tourism industry That has a very very More so than anywhere else that I've been involved in and for those that have known me for a long time I've been engaged in natural area of management for about 30 years The level of industry self-regulation in Antarctica far exceeds industry regulation anywhere else I think that Potentially the biggest impact of tourism will be a combination of climate change and accidental introduction of alien organisms in other words climate change making it Parts of Antarctica particularly the peninsula more hospitable to alien organisms and tourism bringing in An organism that establishes there But that's a lot less likely than national Antarctic programs doing the same thing and so the same efforts and Regulations that apply to the tourism industry need to be applied to national Antarctic programs as well to stop that happening Recommendations is going to be strengthening the protection of the Antarctic Treaty system itself Would that include Strengthening the Madrid vertical and some of the measures that's it introduced such as the protected area system the critical was came into force 60 years ago and Protected area system on land it's fire has essentially language Well, I'm a little my recommendations a little more General than that. What I'm what I'm actually recommending is that Australia publicly commit to supporting the Antarctic Treaty system as part of its national interests But in a general sense, I think one of the most underdeveloped parts of The Madrid protocol since it came into force in 1998 is the protected area system And I do believe that international efforts need are needed to and expand the area protection regime in Antarctica You may be interested in having a look at the article that Valérie Lucan just published on Area protection in Antarctica and why it's a plot by the claimant states to undermine the Antarctic Treaty system It's quite a read. I'll leave that for you I Okay There are many levels to that question But the first is that under the Antarctic Treaty all of Antarctica is available to all countries That are members of the treaty to engage in scientific activity, so Australia doesn't impose laws on Foreign nationals in Antarctica in the Australian Antarctic Territory That's one of the one of the practices that's grown up in the Antarctic Treaty because of that over overriding Obligation in the Antarctic Treaty for free access to any or all of Antarctica for scientific research, so at that level There's there's no conflict between Australia saying We have the Australian Antarctic Territory and another country France or India or Russia China Conducting scientific activities there You mentioned resources. Well any country Exploiting mineral resources in Antarctica would be in breach of the Antarctic Treaty and then you May or may not have implied do those activities actually change the status of Of the Australian Antarctic Territory Well, no article four of the Australian Antarctic Territory Of the sorry article four of the Antarctic Treaty Says that anything that's that happens Within the life of the treaty in Antarctica neither Affirms or diminishes our territorial plans How about some time Tony giving people to There's always a problem the you talked about the replacement of the Aurora Astralis There's also the air transport system, which hasn't been as successful as it could be Flying to the ice runway casing because of the melt there In your strategic plan you see the development of a more strategic a more substantial Rock runway say in the best possible for example, but would enable Transfer of both people and also potential some cargo Right and What I've recommended is That we should do a thorough review of the current Availability for air transport systems to and from Antarctica And and there are now platforms that are available to fly that distance and With the right engine and and Etops Triggerations to be able to operate under an Australian license to and from Antarctica When the when the ice runway was put in place there were very limited Number of aircraft that could do that and do it successfully there are now at least one if not two aircraft that are that are at least Capable of doing that My recommendation is that the government should look at that in the medium term and to try and configure An air transport system that would allow for direct flights to and from more than just one place In Antarctica, I haven't been so bold as to say there should be a rot one way here or a nice runway there I think there's a lot more ice to flow around the continent before somebody comes to that decision, but One of the things I will say is that Australia will not be able to maximize the potential that the new research vessel gives it Unless it also matches that potential with Greater capability for inter and intra continental air transport You The Vias I understand Short answer is yes What what what it was to do was was not really about Antarctica was that vessel was cited In the Australian exclusive economic zone around Herd Island And it was the way The vessel was intercepted That led to that rather unfortunate overturning of well the lack of conviction So yes, the law and the practice Has been changed, but that's still the longest Pursuit ever on the high seas And there are some fantastic photographs of the It was actually bordered by South African Fisheries enforcement officers who were the scariest bunch of people I've Have ever seen they look as if they just walked out of Angola Anyway, it was a tragedy lose that case Technology That's interesting I've actually been asked that question a number of times and and I've actually talked around a few People about that There are better places, you know in the world to put ground stations to to listen To the rest of the world than Antarctica and the short answer is that practically Antarctica probably won't become a great hub for that kind of Activity it has been speculated And I I do think though that at some stage in the future inside the Antarctic Treaty itself there needs to be a discussion about Non-traditional military Engagement, I think we can work out ships and guns and bombs and all that kind of stuff But at some stage in the future they'll need to be a fairly Explicit discussion about what people actually do In the area of satellite technology and surveillance and India for instance, I know is really interested in setting up Geostationary satellites over the over the Indian Ocean And whether whether they're stationed in Antarctica is associated with that kind of activity. I just Look If you mothballed any of our stations in Antarctica without establishing a Comparable effort Somewhere else, and I don't mean build a station. I mean revamp your science program or Or go drill the million year old ice core in the Aurora Basin If all you did was mothball and walk away In a strict Treaty sense that wouldn't do anything To Australia's Antarctic claim But it would certainly be seen by the rest of the world as Australia losing its interest in its Antarctic territory and That would be something that Australia could never recover from Well, let's let's go to the US. I don't think the US will ever pull out of Christchurch the the relationship between the US New Zealand and Antarctica and the New Zealand ban on their vessels are very tightly into woven and I don't see I don't see the US Diminishing its its efforts in Christchurch But I do see opportunities for Hobart to actually host US activities from time to time And as a matter of fact this year there are I think six US research visits to the port of Hobart And I see in the future with the upgrade of the the extension to the Hobart runway. I see US aircraft being able to Say do a run Guam Alice brings Hobart McMurdo that kind of thing the heavy-lift aircraft and Australia itself flies a lot of US scientific personnel to and from Christchurch to McMurdo they could also do that from Hobart to McMurdo as well that would Australia's got a quid pro pro looking at other nations look Australia has had a very very long and deep Association with the Chinese Antarctic effort the Chinese scientists the first Chinese scientists to go to Antarctica came to Antarctica with the Australian Antarctic Division And Australia has deep personal and and scientific connections with Chinese scientists and There is still much engagement in the Chinese science program and the Australian Antarctic program working together And I see potentially a lot more activity between Australia and China operating out of Hobart and Then other countries like Korea Russia are also possible occasional or regular users of the port of Hobart and the airport And Hobart with the extension of the Hobart runway you can actually fly direct from from Shanghai to Hobart For example and I see there's a there's a lot of potential there I don't think you'll see India India's got a special presidential decree that says they'll operate out of Cape Town but I think There's an opportunity for for more effort From other nations operating out of Hobart and I've actually done a fairly detailed economic analysis of the relationship between the Antarctic program and the Tasmanian economy if you want to know the the Antarctic and and and marine science efforts in in Tasmania Now about the same size as forestry. So they're a significant. They're a significant part of the Tasmanian economy Oh Look absolutely The examples that I use there were examples. I think there's I don't think we should Australia and others as a matter of fact should diminish at all their marine science efforts in the southern nation I was commenting today that Switzerland has Twice as much marine science capability as Australia has I I think that I think that we need and so does New Zealand I think that we need to to ramp up our efforts in all areas of marine science in the Antarctic in the Antarctic not just physical but biological as well and there's actually One of the great international efforts that Australia led which was the sensors of Antarctic marine life That's about to be launched that books about to be launched You know today is it Yeah, I know it was launch of Scarborough's launched again in Australia tomorrow or today or something anyway multiple launches But yes, I don't think we should diminish our efforts at all. I think we should increase our efforts One of the students still on abilities with the entire tree system That for as long as there are the glistening management chairing global commons and the rest of the world nations not Symmetry or To the tree What was much interest in the treaty as possible house progress and why are the obstacles to the rest of Okay, so so after the 25th anniversary of the coming into force of the Madrid protocol Australia, France and others led a Concerted diplomatic effort to Get more parties to sign up to the Madrid protocol Which of course necessitates signing the tree not necessarily necessitates signing the Camila convention I Think things will probably stay relatively stable for the next few years my suspicion is that this misunderstanding about the the The expiry of the mining ban and I will reinforce the mining ban does not expire it Continues forever unless overturned But but that misunderstanding might actually lead to more parties becoming interested in joining the Antarctic Treaty is 2048 Approaches and one of the recommendations I've made in My report is in fact Australia and others in the Antarctic Treaty parties as a whole should be actively going out there explaining What the treaty does? What the environmental protection protocol does what Camila does and engaging with non parties