 Everyone, we're going to give it just a few minutes for the zoom room to load up. But as always, thank you to everyone for being timely. It looks like it's filling up pretty quickly. So with that, I'm going to go ahead and start sharing my screen. I want to go ahead and welcome everyone to this C2C care webinar. My name is Robin Bauer Kildo and I'm going to be your host for today. You are here for working with facilities to create a fuller picture of your collection environment. We're going to be running from about one to 2pm Eastern today and there will be a Q&A portion afterwards. Just keep an eye out for that. Again, my name is Robin Bauer Kildo. I'm located just outside of Washington DC in Silver Spring, Maryland. If you have any questions related to our program, I am going to encourage you to email me at c2ccatculturalheritage.org. Just in case you're new to our program, I always like to refer to our website in case you're interested in taking a look at some of our past history, or even our future program, which I'm going to be talking about in a few minutes. Our website is connecting to collections.org. On that website, you will see our whole past history of webinars. C2C care has been around for over 10 years, so there's quite an archive of webinars over there. There's also links to our courses and our course archive, which are a little bit more in-depth looks at collections topics. And then finally, we have a link to our moderated community. So if you ever have a question that you would like to send out to our community, I encourage you to go look at that link as well. The community is moderated by a fabulous group of volunteers who then reach out to a fabulous group of experts. So if you have a question related to collections care, I encourage you to go there as well. I should also add that we have a bunch of really good curated resources on our website as well. So please go there to check them out when you can. We have two homes on social media that you can follow for announcements from our programs. One is on Facebook. One is on the network formerly known as Twitter, as I like to call it. Both of our handles on those are at C2C care. So if you're looking for programming notes or anything else, I encourage you to go to those networks. Finally, I think we're all pretty comfortable with Zoom and the Zoom environment, but I always like to point out that we have a couple different ways for you to interact with our panelists today. One is the chat box, which you can say hello and where you're from. You guys are already doing an excellent job at doing that, so well done. Another way is that we have a Q&A box. So the Q&A box is there for you to ask questions from our presenters at any point during the program. I do encourage you to use the Q&A box. If you ask a question, it helps us track things a little bit easier. So if you happen to put a question in the chat, no worries, I'll probably direct you over to the Q&A box, but if you could start there, it would be appreciated. Finally, we have enabled closed captioning for this program. So if you want to hit that CC button, you'll be able to see our caption or hard at work. Quick and upcoming programming note for C2C care, we've been working hard with our advisory group on scheduling out the early part of late winter early spring. So we currently have three webinars you can register for on our website right now. C2C care does one free webinar a month. And so we have our next three ready to go March 20, we're going to be doing video kill the radio star making effective collections care videos. On that one we're going to be featuring just kind of some maybe cost efficient ways of creating collections videos how to use them for advocacy and some other fun little tips so we're looking forward to that one on March 20. On April 25, we'll be talking with some folks at the OSHA's on site consultation program. That program is great it's free OSHA, which is based here in the state so actually come out and help you figure out maybe but there's some issues with your storage areas or ways to improve. They are not there to audit you or do anything they're there to help. They're pretty excited to come talk about their program on April 25. And finally on May 1 we have our first webinar for AICs annual May Day programming, all about regional emergency networks with a group out of Vermont and how they've dealt with severe weather and flooding. That's happening on May 1. All of our webinars tend to happen at 1pm Eastern. So I encourage you to go and register for them today. If you're interested in participating in them. So now I'm excited to introduce our two presenters today we have Melissa King who is preventative conservator and vice president of the customer experience at conserve and Chris Cameron who's the facilities and museum environmental specialist. They're gonna be talking all sorts about just the museum environment, all sorts of fun stuff about monitoring so we're excited to have them today. So I'm going to go ahead and stop sharing my screen. You guys feel free to take over and then I will be back at the end for the Q&A period. So go for it and thanks again. Thank you Robin. So Chris and I were really interested in putting together a presentation on this topic because in both of our careers we have found that this is a topic that's brought up. Pretty often with our customers and oftentimes collections have parallel monitoring systems managed by two different groups of people facilities collections people. So much value and working together towards the same goal. And even if you don't have parallel monitoring systems it's still common to have multiple loggers reading differently. And so in this presentation you'll find some youth useful methods that you can use to compare two different sensors to get a sense of which sensors are calibrated and which ones are not so I hope you'll be able to use this as a resource if you do run into that problem which I'm guessing you might. In this presentation we're going to start by doing an overview of the different types of sensors loggers just going to get clear about some terminology. Chris is going to present a really interesting case study about using multiple types of loggers. So we're going to go through the exercise of how we can compare two different loggers to get a sense of their calibration. And then Chris is going to talk about how we can some methods for how we can work together with facilities to create a better team. And then finally at the end we'll have some time for questions so I will hand things over to Chris. One of the first places I want to start off is identifying the difference between sensors versus loggers. So it's something you know it comes up a lot when you're either working with facilities or looking at your collection space, there's the technical conversations they'll mention the sensors the sensor says this the sensor says what exactly are those sensors what the sensors are going to be any form or point of control for a mechanical system. HVAC it could be a band whatever that mechanical conditioning is for that space that sensor will be the point of control for that that location that room multiple rooms that zone. When it comes to the sensors, typically about 99% of the time the sensors in the stationary location, it can't move it's fixed. So in, I will say for my own experience they're usually in some of the worst locations within a space but that's just my own experience looking at collection spaces. Your loggers are going to be a little bit different they're going to tell you the similar information temperature relative humidity, except for the logger is mobile you can put that where you need to you can move it near collection materials you can move it around spaces, you can add multiple loggers, but the difference being in this scenario, the logger will not be actively controlling a mechanical system so if a logger sees conditions that are out of whack, or conditions that are Aaron, it typically 90% of the time won't be controlling any form mechanical system so it's just reporting. There are some higher tech modern systems that come out in the last, I'm going to say in the last year or so that are combining a sensor and logger into one, but for the most part and I mean sensor logger in a sensor can move around a room as well but for the most part sensors are stationary, actively controlling mechanical system and the loggers are mobile reporting devices throughout a collection space. When we talk sensors, what are sensors so when we deal with you know sensor controlling mechanical system what are they. Well there's typically three different type of sensors that control a space there's a thermostat, which is only sensibly controlling the temperature within a collection space, or within a space. So when you ever you see a thermostat all that's doing is he it's controlling the heating or pulling from that mechanical system. There's a humidity stat, which typically just controls the humidification of a mechanical system. You can have a thermostat and humidity stat together in within a collection space. You can have them want a mountain or wall right next to each other. One's going to be controlling the humidification one's going to be controlling the temperature. And then there is the third device the combo unit or it's called a thermostat. And it's going to control both temperature and relative humidity within one device. And they're, you know, depending on what your mechanical systems design you may have one you may have both or you may have the combo. So, when you work with facilities individual, there'll be a lot of conversation as to the overshoot the dead band. You know your set point, what does all of that mean so wanted to break this down and show this graph because this gives you that definition as to what all those definitions, all those words mean what's the definition to all of them. So when you think about a thermostat, you want to imagine this big graph this wave graph that you see on the screen. That whenever you look at a thermostat it doesn't provide. If you're looking for 75 degrees. It's not giving you exactly 75 degrees so say we're looking at a collection space and we're going to aim for 70 degrees. So within a collection space that set point that lying across the middle is 70 degrees. That's our goal for the collection space. Well, at some point, we'll start at the far right of the far left of the graph or right on your screen. So when you start off you'll have the response time so that is the time it takes for the thermostat. When it senses it needs to come on to actually turn on. So you'll have that response time where this the thermostat will say hey, I need to heat this room it's getting a little cold. Okay, I need to turn on so that you know we'll have that response time for activation to actively heating. Then, those thermostat will start telling the mechanical system to heat the space, but we don't keep the 70 degrees will heat a few degrees extra maybe 72 might be 73. So there's that overshoot so instead of heating to our target goal, our target set point we're going to go past that and the reason for that is, when you look at a collection when you get any space, your thermostat is generally not close to the fusers, the supply and the space. So it's going to lose some temperature lose some condition from that to thermostat so it's going to overshoot that a little bit to help make sure in the room it's condition. Then once it hits the overshoot, it turns off so if we heat to 72, the thermostat is satisfied, it turns off and begins to drop down. And that's what we call that dead band, the dead band is from when that mechanical system turned on, and you can hear it up to and hit that that the top peak this 72 for a set point, and then just kind of stayed off until it turned on again until it heat it call for heat. And usually for some systems that could be a degree or two below the set point. So we may have it set for 70 it will actually come on at 68 so that dead band will drop from 72 to 68. And that's when it'll turn on again at that 68 and then fire back up. And the period that you have there will be from when it hit the peak of overshoot to the peak of overshoot between each, each wave of that graph. This graph says a little bit more the reason the waves get a little bit smaller is today, they're marking a lot of smart thermostats that are learning how to educate themselves on dead bands and overshoots and try and minimize the amount of energy we're using but for the most part this just is here to help you identify and understand when you know you understand overshoot dead band period, what all those mean. So, when you think we look at sensors calibrations important I know those of you who work with data loggers that's driven in your head we want to calibrate. You're going to calibrate your loggers constantly every you know three to five years is what we are always pressed for calibrating loggers. You should also calibrate your wall sensors, this is a point of control for mechanical system. So, just like a data logger in a space that you're relying on to give you accurate information, you're relying on the wall sensors to actively give you good information to control the mechanical system. And there's a little bit of discrepancy when it comes to calibrating these sensors. So, give you three different variations here when I actually got my HPC certification, which was 13 years ago. So it's a ways back. The rule of thumb back then was every five to seven years. When I received my CEM certification, which was three, which was just about two years ago, the rule then was three to five years. And I narrowed that band out a little bit and much of this is because there's a lot more digital thermostats, digital measurements out there, and they really want those looked after looked, you know, with a, they want a more careful eye on these devices. And any of you who are at AIC, I believe a year and a half ago, I gave a presentation on Johnson controls devices and at that point in time, the information from Johnson controls directly was you want to calibrate a lot. So, I can tell you firsthand from as you know, I do some consulting for collection environments on the side but my full time position is assistant director for facilities. I can tell you for the 500 plus locations we manage. Locations do not calibrate their sensors often or sometimes ever. In the years that I have done evaluation evaluating spaces for collection environments, I have seen sensors within collecting spaces that are 20 years out of whack with no calibration whatsoever. But while that sensor has been on a wall for over 20 years, it's now, you know, 1520 degrees off of where it should be monitoring. And the facility staff said well what we do now is we just accommodate for the drift that it's had and we just compensate within the computer so something to keep in mind that calibrating sensors is not often it can be expensive and sometimes when they're really out of, you know, out of calibration they just need to be replaced. If you ever have a question on the calibration of a wall sensor, best thing to do is put a data logger with it to verify brand new data logger out of a box. You can trust that calibration more than you can trust the wall sensor that may have been up there for three or four years. So, going into that this isn't my real picture. So I just told you all I, you know, do facility management as my full time job. What happens to your thermostats is important because it's going to relate to your collection space. This is a unfortunate real legitimate picture from we hired someone to do some drywalling and while they were drywalling they mudded right over the thermostat in the space. So those are the same same space just a few days apart with the before and after the before on the left and the after on the right. So we put drywall mud right over the thermostat. And then we had to have the sensor replaced in many spaces I've seen. I can tell you I've been in spaces where they would have just scraped some of the drywall off so that the events on the thermostat could see conditions and just carried on and to me once that happens that thermostat is pretty much useless but it does get reused we see it happen often so what what your sensors experience is important. This is a staged image I will tell you all firsthand but this is something I do see often your sensor placement is critical where that's, if your sensors wherever you put that sensor it's going to monitor that condition so I have seen sensors placed over coffee pots over computers behind these when that happens it's going to see the air and heat or moisture load that's coming from that device. And when that occurs it's going to heat or cool based on what's happening with that device. You want to make sure your sensors are bought by objects I see cubicle walls in front of them a lot. I've seen library shelving in front of them it becomes a major issue. One of my favorites, if you will was, you know we worked with a collection and they kept telling us that they couldn't get the temperature right couldn't get the temperature right. It took us a while. We found the sensor in a library, but on a pole behind a shelf covered in books so there was no condition getting to that sensor whatsoever so making sure you know where your senses are and that there's free at least 18 inches of air flow around them is critical. Next component, if you will that comes down to this is your BMS. What is the BMS so the BMS is going to be the building management system or the energy management system. There's about 10 different other acronyms I can give but those are the two more prominent whenever it's referred to the BMS the EMS. It's the computer that basically controls your mechanical system so this is where the programming would be that they would tell the system to heat to cool they would set set points they would open dampers. And you can also trend data out of here and something we'll talk about in a little bit to add additional monitoring points so if you know if you want to use the sensors as long as you can do things like that. Again we'll cover that in a bit but when you really think BMS that's going to be what the sensors talk to what the sensors are controlling and telling to operate and function. That creates the condition within your collection space and a little bit further down that rabbit hole there's also a BAS and if you have a BAS it's a little bit deeper control where it gives you control of security lighting it's just a broader version of a BMS that gives more control through a facility. Okay. So the reason I bring the BMS up is your sensors talk to the wall sensors are going to talk to that BMS. And we want to do this is my our case they want to present so a few years ago, I did some work with a library that had some compact shelving. And they had called us because they had a major mold outbreak and I mean a massive old outbreak occurred inside some mobile shelving system. And a great data monitoring program they actually had a significant amount of loggers and if you see my forgive my icons but the little cell phone looking objects were the data monitors that they put throughout the collection space. And, you know they had the room sensor in that space the loggers throughout that space and if you look top to bottom, there's supplied if users in the red and the return grill so if I'm looking from an airflow standpoint, they have got really good air flow design to what we call short circuit, we're getting good airflow through the space north without this image. You know the sensor should get a good reading of what's occurring in the space, the loggers are placed throughout the collections based very well. They were in there for stratification so there are some loggers high and some loggers low. They were put in shelves are indoors inside that some of the compact shelving so they can see other micro climates and shelving is there. They were put in on shelf so they, they did cover almost all of their bases when they, they put these loggers out. When we looked at this though, facilities was not communicating with the collection staff so they were operating as two separate entities they weren't sharing data they weren't talking to each other. They weren't telling each other what they see what's occurring within their collection space. So what's what happened in this scenario is, typically will see compact shelving hold conditions. So when the room will change the compact shelving little slower to respond. So research has shown that a change the temperature can happen instantaneously, while change in relative humidity can take depending on the power compact collection is weeks if not months to to see. In this scenario what we were seeing was the data loggers said everything's okay everything's great in their locations. In this scenario the data loggers will be showing individual locations on the collection on the shelves within the compact shelving. The thermostat said yeah there's trouble something needs to be done here. Unfortunately, there wasn't that communication between facilities and the collection staff. And what occurred was where that big red circle was there was a massive mold outbreak. And it, you know they were the collections collecting staff that were going in there were pulling from loggers loggers were saying it was safe. They were trusting the loggers. And unfortunately without the general room data they were just seeing what was happening within those compact shelving. And when the mold took off it really kind of bloomed and became a significant remediating remediation event within that space. Typically when it comes to compact shelving you know my own little thing we recommend keeping them open a bit let some air flow through them. Because we'll talk about a bit working with your facilities to see what you know, make sure you're on the same page they you're communicating you can see what's happening and share that data. And we'll talk a bit about how you can get that data as a logger for your as almost as a logger data for your own space. Thanks Chris so this was a really this case study you shared Chris is a really excellent example of why we want to might want to review BS sensors. I'm sure you could think and many of you might be able to think of countless examples when the loggers in the collection space are telling a different story and can also be the red herring that can tell you that there might be an issue going on in the collection space. So that kind of brings to front that we really should be working with our facility staff because they have data we have data we can create a fuller picture. We have our crucial preservation partner. We really have the same goals you want to create a good environment for our collections. Chris is going to share some tips later on the presentation about how we might form that connection a little bit better. And that will in turn help us have a better understanding of how the spaces are controlled, and ultimately give you a fuller picture of the collection environment. So this is where I get into a little exercise of how we might compare two different loggers or sensors, whether you're looking at loggers or sensors both output a temperature and humidity reading and sometimes those readings don't always align. So I put together a checklist to review to try to make sense of the different readings and determine if a sensor or logger is in need of calibration. And once we know we're comparing apples to apples with our loggers then we can really start compiling the data to create our fuller picture of what's going on in our spaces. So the first part of the checklist, and this may seem obvious but not always. Are they actually reading from the same location. A lot of sensors are maybe in the ductwork or not necessarily in the collection space versus a data logger which as Chris just showed an example can be reporting completely So just like a quick note on micro climates micro climates can exist anywhere in a space they're hyper localized environments within a larger space. And they can be impacted by airflow. So Chris mentioned, opening up the condensed storage a little bit to allow airflow can help prevent micro climates. So there could be an external heat source or more moisture source that might impact the environment on a local level. Sometimes the temperature and humidity can vary greatly depending on how close your logger is near to a window or a perimeter wall or how close it is to a supply to duct, or even the height of the space, because there's stack effect temperature rise and so you have to be aware of how the environment can change throughout a singular space so that's something. That's why it's really important for us to when we're comparing two different loggers or sensors to have them right next to each other because they really could be reading vastly different environments because of micro climates. So once we've confirmed that they are in the same place. The next step is to get an understanding of the standard of error for each sensor or logger. So if you look at the technical specifications for a logger or a sensor you should find something called the standard of error. It looks like these percentages that you see on the screen so it says RH for relative humidity plus or minus 2% and you'll see a temperature one as as well for the conserve sensor on the left it says plus or minus point two degrees Celsius. So what this means is it's the allowable range for a logger to take a reading and still be considered calibrated. For example, if the precise relative humidity in a space is 50% then the loggers and sensors can read within a range and still be considered accurate to give you a further idea of that. So for the logger on the left with the standard of error of plus or minus 2% and if the humidity is actually 50% then we would expect that sensor to read between 48 and 52% relative humidity if it's calibrated. As the other example sensor I have on the right has a larger standard of error that's an even bigger range that we could expect a reading for that sensor and still be considered calibrated. So we've looked at the standard of error we've confirmed that this the loggers are in the same location. The next thing we would consider is the last time that logger or sensor was actually calibrated. So the further a logger gets away from the time it was calibrated the greater the range you can expect to see in the standard of error. The annual drift is also something that you can typically find on a technical specification sheet. And so for the conserve sensor on the left you can see this annual drift of 0.25% per year. And what that means is, for every year that it's been calibrated we can expect that standard of error to grow another 0.25%. So the standard of error gets bigger, the longer we get away from the time it was calibrated. So I did do the calculation here if we look at the dates of the loggers and when they were calibrated we can estimate a standard of error. So for the conserve logger on the left. It starts as a standard of error plus or minus 2%. But since this sensor was calibrated a year ago in February of 2023 we can expect an additional 0.25% for that standard of error. So for the conserve sensor, the new standard of error that we would expect would be plus or minus 2.25% Rh. And then for the Govee sensor on the right, that one was calibrated relatively recently so let's say it's probably maybe still within its original standard of error specifications of plus or minus 3%. Okay, we have apples to apples now we have done the work to make sure we understand the calibration standard of errors for either sensors. So then we can take a look at the readings and actually determined if they are inspected with each other. So just to give you a sense of this I tried to create another visual. If the actual relative humidity is 50% and these indeed both of these sensors are calibrated. So for the conserve sensor this little purple line underneath the the chart says that we would expect the sensor to read between 47.75% and 52.25% because you're adding 2.25% to either side of 50% and then we're adding 3% to either side of 50% on the Govee sensor. And I know this is a lot of math and a lot of numbers. Robbins promised me that this presentation will be made available to you to reference because I think this is like a useful checklist to walk through when you're trying to do this comparison. And then we get to the real math. Sorry, I love math. So once we've established the new standard of errors for these sensors, we can actually add them together and determine the total allowable difference between the logger readings. So if you add 2.25% and 3% together for the Govee sensor, then we would expect 5.25% difference. So if they're reading that different from each other. But they're actually both calibrated. You don't have to worry about it. You can expect to see that difference. But if they're not, then that brings another question. Okay, so which one is right. And what I suggest doing here is to find another sensor to run through the same experiment with and try to see if at least two of them align with each other. As Chris mentioned, it's probably safe to rely on the newer sensor if you have that kind of information of which one was calibrated first. And then there's another final option, which, you know, if you're really banging your head about this is a saturated salt chamber. I have also provided a handout for Robin to include with this presentation that will walk you through some steps to fun little pretty easy experiment to set up. And it utilizes real science, which is that certain salts known chemical salts, when saturated with water under relatively consistent temperature, within a little micro climate will produce a very precise relative humidity So what you can do is put your sensors in a chamber with a little dish of saturated salt and it's convenient that sodium chloride table salt will has a known constant of 75% RH. So if you put the sensors in the chamber with the saturated salt you close it up, you leave it for a couple days and then you see what the readings are you can see which one is actually closer to 75%. If we were really being scientific about this we could use multiple salts and do a three point calibration but this is really just a sanity check if you just want to use table salt which is something that everyone has in their own homes. So, I have that reference sheet for you to use if you really want to do a fun little science experiment it's trust me sometimes these things get kind of complicated so it's helpful to have these as an option to check. All right. So, one of the things we talked so now we want to talk about is now what do you do with your data. So, first and foremost, want to press that I know there's a lot of data software out there. I, as a former IPI employee I can talk to you about he kind of notebook. Melissa can tell you about conserve and both of us will tell you that if you're going to be using any form of software really highly recommend either of those. They're going to give you the best for data analysis for collection environment that are out there. I couldn't press you know how important it is using either of those. The best thing about either of those, either of those softwares is you can import BMS data into that. So, what if you're using either of these software, you can export what they call a CSV from a BMS data, you ask your, if you work with your facilities person you asked them if they can trend data from a from a point and export it as a CSV. And then you can take that data and upload that CSV into either e-com and notebook or conserve and use the point of reference, the sensor that's on the wall as a data point, just as you would a logger. It also helps you see what the collections, what the mechanical system thinks it's producing for that space. So it, you know, gives you a good monitoring point within that space and also a point of reference for what's happening and what's actually taking place. And if you see there's a discrepancy between your logger between your mechanical system, then you know it's something you should you would need to address. So, mentioned this just to thank you to those. What are we looking for so some BMS systems can trend that data. You can use it as additional monitoring points and you can use it to compare. You can even use it if you really start getting it really in depth into your data analysis, you can use that data from inside the mechanical system trend that to save some energy. And then what we're looking are for when you ask your facilities team is we're looking for 10 and relative humidity points from within the, the sensor. So at any point in there you have to have a temperature and relative humidity combination and trend that data for a certain period of time and export that. And they're pretty both economy notebook and conserve. It's pretty straightforward. There's tutorials on how to upload CSVs as well. And like I said, it just is an excellent reference point for your mechanical system on additional point of reference that I thought about actually this morning is when you trend BMS data you can also trend return data from mechanical system you can also train the outside air data. So whether you're using conserve or you've got a notebook. This will give you if you trend outside air data at your mechanical system, it is the most pertinent relevant, relatable outside air data to your facility of what's actually happening around your, your institution so it's a good way to get you know, the real immediate implementation. So how do we, how do we get this information first and foremost we want to create that environment, environment management team. We want to get members of diverse backgrounds. We want to talk to our facility staff our collection staff, our administration staff our administrative staff. We want to get everyone involved who's going to have any interest in participating or have a say within the institution, we want that that diverse background we want anyone who knows, you know how the facility the mechanical systems will operate, how that relates what they do. We want the collection staff, what our collections needs what is what could happen with the collections. We want to look at this from all different angles and even administration staff can say hey, we may be looking to make this change or this change to the space later so we're going to keep this in mind or we want to evaluate these spaces so it's good to get a really good breadth of, you know, experience in there and backgrounds because you never know when someone may see something in data and they might be able to jump out say hey, this was actually the system shut down at this point or this was this problem or the collection staff may step in and say hey, there was actually, we have some collections in there that cannot go below this point, we can we set some alarms and keep that as a point of concern. So how to get your facilities team by and this is a really interesting point because this is asked of me a lot. You know, we're, we'll get asked we're working with the collections or working with our facilities team, we want to work with the facilities team. How do we do that. I can tell you, I have a team of 18 service managers underneath me, and I tell everyone all the time if you buy my service managers a donut they'll pretty much do anything for you and that's an extreme but they'll be your friend for life. So basically, when it comes to your facility staff, just treat them as you will any other person bring them give them tours of your collection space let them know why your collection space is important what's necessary will what show them some important items within your collection why that it by that material is worth saving. Ask for a tour of their systems, ask if you can look at their mechanical systems walk through their spaces. We know how does the HVAC system operate can they explain it to you can they, you know are they willing to show you the deep dark dungeons of the mechanical of the maintenance and the facility. You know, just be be congenial with them, be open with them, try and let them understand that you're working for mutually beneficial results, if you can work with a facility staff and improve the collection environment, you most likely will help also reduce energy consumption from the facilities which will also make them look better and you don't have less of a carbon footprint. So just as we say all the time their strength and numbers are goals to work together and help have help to have those beneficial results for everyone and improve the collection. So, when you're working with facilities. A couple of things I really want to really drive home here is when you're trying to reach out to facilities, keep it the communications short and concise and I say that wholeheartedly. Again, I have a staff of 18. Some of my service managers are managing anywhere from 25 to 31 individual told me today that they're managing 40 sites at one time. So, they are at their peak and they don't respond to fires they know they've got a lot of other control but when you reach out to them communication keep it short and concise. I had an individual tell me that they couldn't get facilities to respond to them and I worked with them for a bit trying to figure out what the issues were. And I coached them what they should say and finally at one point after a few weeks of that facilities not responding I said, can you send me the email that you sent them. And they did printed it off and it was five pages printed. So, they don't have time. They really said time don't have time for that. Give them the who what where when and why they're on your side they just they may not have time to read a novel to really help out with what's going on. Setting up monthly meetings is important, but make sure you keep them brief be mindful of time, you know have bring them in walk around the collection spaces with them, you know have a coffee together. Just get an understanding of what you're seeing what's happening with their space that may relate to yours what's happening with your space that may relate to them. And really just get that mutual understanding and mutual relationship built, and then start working on, you know how you're going to work together to get those spaces working best for you both. And sharing that data because again this all comes down to how are we going to share the data what are we going to do well when you start working with facilities start making that team, you know you can start sharing that data and it's going to help both of you in the end. And lastly on this preventive maintenance important just as my little throwaway statement and all this. It's usually the first thing cut when budget starts getting cut so working with your facilities team be an active member for them an active a vocal member for them. When preventive maintenance gets cut usually you'll start to see it it'll relate to the collection eventually mechanical systems will start to be have shorter life spans or have issues more often, and that'll wind up relating to issues within the collection space as well so helping support that PM is going to help support you back you up in the long run. The floor up now to any questions if you have, you know, for any reason you're shy about asking a question, then you, our email address is right there will be happy to talk to, you know, he responded any of you if you have, you know, any questions please feel free to send them through to us now. Thanks Chris and thanks Melissa yeah this this particular audience is usually not very shy. So I'm going to encourage them to go ahead and put any questions they might have in the chat. Or in the Q&A box. I'm also going to really quick before we dive into those send along again our link to the resources that Melissa mentioned earlier, we have a copy of the presentation and the experiment that she did which I kind of want to do around my house actually right now out of curiosity so on our website and I would also say our link to our survey is on there as well. So I'm going to go ahead and start looking at questions I believe one just popped up on the in the chat line actually so let me find that one's first. Here we go for those who have collections and historic buildings how much experience do you have with reconciling collections environments with building environments. When and where to have vapor barriers materials used to prevent pulling waste or dry air through the building etc. I'm one of the few conservators in the US to work with both and I frequently see these issues that could be better resolved. Any thoughts on that. So I'll jump in there I know they're telling I worked on a project I know it is in the process of being published shortly. Some work that was done with historic structures that have little to no mechanical system control from Morris County Parks Commission. I know Kelly is, you know working with them on finishing a report for it. There are a number of ways, even with no mechanical control that you could manage moisture issues and this is one of the things they did they took some historic safes that had no gas getting or vapor barriers they added gaskets they added some different types of sealants and whatnot to the cabinets and they were able to build pretty good vapor barriers and pretty pretty good. Sorry, more moisture barriers with these cabinets and older historic cabinets that typically we would have expected to not be as successful. So the house was leaky and whatnot. We got pretty good response out of that and they were publishing their results. We should be shortly. Perfect. Someone asked if we only have a few data loggers for our shelves is there a preferable height to place them at should we stick with the middle shelf so there's some practical, you know, application or question right there. I mean I'll be curious to hear Chris's response to this too but one thing that I really advise customers is if you have a data logger or something that outputs a reading like a temperature and humidity reading on a screen. It can be really helpful to walk around your space and see if the humidity or temperature changes as you move around. That might be a helpful way to indicate if there are micro climates. But I think generally it also depends on what you know the density of your collections if you have dense like collections that go floor to ceiling, then maybe you might want to distribute those sensors along the height of the of the space. But generally speaking if you get a sense of the space that it's largely consistent then I think the middle shelf like middle is probably a good spot. I don't know Chris anything else to add to that. If you only have one data logger if you only have, you know one available middle shelf in this in a room is the best way to go it's best to get a good average if you own a collection space. But grand scheme of things you know Melissa's right I've seen collection spaces, I mean I've seen just nine foot ceilings that have stratification. So getting some data loggers you know if you may have issues getting low shelf high shelf. Again, you know I showed the compact shelving and you know that becomes a whole different monster when you start getting micro climates potentially within the compact shelving themselves so a good rule of thumb if you only have one per room. General mid level is good. But if you if you can if you can get more just get an idea for where micro climates may lives getting some spread out throughout a space, even if they're only in their short term to see if micro climates exist in that space, or it can be useful. Perfect as a follow up to that because this one came into someone said that if you only have one in the room, should you place it near the thermostat or should you try to isolate another area or what are your guys thoughts on that. I mean, I feel pretty strongly that you have by having a thermostat that puts out a reading and a logger that also records a reading. You have an advantage of technically having to data points. So I think there's an advantage of not necessarily having it right next to the logger or the sensor unless you are trying to evaluate how well that sensors performing. Chris. If you have questions about the sensor doesn't hurt to put it near the sensor just to see what's happening. But yeah if you especially if you can trend it it doesn't hurt to have that as extra point of reference in the room and you know have it on have that point of reference and put the logger somewhere else in the space. But yeah if you question it getting them close to each other just to see what's happening doesn't hurt at all. I mean that's the thing though right with these data loggers is that you have the thermostats which are stuck to the wall. Usually, there's not much mobility with a thermostat to me unless there's some of the newer ones, you know what I mean that it's kind of nice to maybe what you said like tested out a little bit just see if the readings are kind of accurate and then maybe if you can get that as a good data point and then you can be like okay now I can start moving around my facility or looking for a trouble point as well might be an option to my opinion. Let's see, do you have any guide for how many sensors data loggers are ideal in a space according to square meter edge so let's say, but just not not an issue. Is there an idea of how many they should have. I'll jump out there and Melissa I'll let you go. Sorry, I don't mean to. I typically say don't go by don't look at a logger for covering square meter square footage or square meters. You could easily have a micro climate very close by, and I've seen it happen. You're want to assume that if you put a logger in unfortunately that a blogger should be monitoring, even though it's in a room it's monitoring a general location, and it's one thing to be mindful of. Yeah, I would say the same thing it's really only taking a reading of what's directly in front of it. So a logger is really just a sample. And so when you're selecting where you want to put your loggers. That's why it's kind of helpful to seek potential micro climates before you place your loggers, consider the density of where your materials are stored. And then kind of make that determination if you think that one logger is going to be a good representation of a really large space, then maybe you only need one logger for that whole space but if there's potential micro climate risk that there's areas of that space that have airflow issues if there's external heat sources that sort of thing then you might want to monitor closer to those areas so long as collections are also there too because that's what we're really worried about. Um, so someone says, is the actual RH number or the stability of the RH more important or does it depend upon the materials slash objects in the collection. Yeah, it's, it's both the actual RH number does matter. If the RH is higher on the higher side and it stays high for a longer period of time, then we enter potential risk for mold germination. And then there are also certain materials like if we have, you know, archaeological materials for example archaeological metals require really low relative humidity to prevent further corrosion so we might have to consider a lower RH for certain materials it really depends on the collection materials but generally most collection materials like the environment that we like that's comfortable for humans, which is convenient. But, but yeah it does matter fluctuations also matter I know that's not a simple answer but I don't know if you have anything else to say, Chris. No, I think you use something pretty good I mean the one thing from my past experience I can tell you relative fluctuations and relative humidity. If they're short short term, the less of a concern are big concerns were extended fluctuations you know, where they go on for days or if you have a tight compact collection say like a library collection very tight books on the shelf, and you have a relative humidity spike of 10% a day like it spikes in the morning and you know just a mechanical system issue. It spikes up 10% drops back down odds out that collection probably didn't feel it at all that day, because of how dense, you know, but if it's extended over a long period of time then yeah you could have a significant problem. The last also to consider is proof fluctuations so if this environment has been consistently having these kind of fluctuations over a longer period of time. It's, it's somewhat safe to say that the damage is done on some of those objects. So if you have historic data you can make that determination but it's not always possible. The question also said around this question is just said for Nathan's question refer to ashray chapter on museums, the ashray system which I always forget where to find the link for or what ashray stands for so if you can remind me Melissa that'd be great but I always have a mental moment trying to think of that. Yeah, can you remember the acronym Chris. It's the American society for heating. Heating refrigeration air condition. Yeah, air conditioning. I can't remember exactly what it stands for but I think you're on the right American society for your refrigeration and air conditioning. And someone noticed in the chat that it is behind the paywall. So there's some mention about it being there but sometimes if you know someone within the museum field you can grab a copy of it so I would say that might be something to see if you can use your contacts to find. I will also let's go ahead and look on to some others there's some very specific questions related to like data loggers in general, which also keep hitting but I also wanted to point out how you guys really talked about building that with between facilities and collections which I think is really, really important and is a lot like how we do that same thing with emergency planning, right, you go out and you become friends with your local emergency planners because it's very helpful. Outside of getting folks donuts which is always recommended across to build collaboration do you have any other thoughts on ways that you can like talk to your building management or vice versa how building management can talk to collections to kind of start that conversation. The, I mean the best thing I say just be just being open with each other is important. A lot of times the issues that I've seen are is a lack either a lack of trust or facilities feels they're going to be blamed for something like facilities feels you're going to talk to them to blame them because something may not be correct and we've seen a lot. We will work at an institution and then when we're while while we're in their facilities like well we always feel like we're going to be told we're doing something wrong and it's just making sure you're bridging that that you're there to work together, not against each other. It's been my experience and a couple places I've been at that when I get a tour, when we ask for a tour of the facilities. They're usually pretty excited to show you around. And I, I mean, I find it pretty exciting to go up on the roof and check out the air handlers and the boilers and start to build a bigger understanding of the work they do and to not. I mean, it's good to, like I know a fair amount about this stuff but I will never consider myself an expert and I think that's also important to like we have to remember. People that work in facilities are experts in their own regards and we need to respect that. So I think that's something that can maybe rub somebody the wrong way if you come across all knowing. Yeah, I think that's a good point and like I jokingly say that like h facts or something that like, I know enough to be dangerous so like when I was house hunting a year and a half ago I was asking way too many questions about. systems because I was just like again working as a working registrar in the field you just start learning about these things right and then the poor like realtors looking at you like you're mildly crazy because you're asking such specific questions about h back systems in your house. But knowing and even knowing who I could go talk to who are engineers and stuff is really useful and I think again like opening up those lines of conversation are just incredibly important. When you're working within your facilities itself so thanks for highlighting that again. People are asking, I'm looking through to find a couple good general questions that might be good to kind of just talk about things. Someone's asking, there are some questions related to water software systems which I'm a little curious about and I'm not sure I want to know make sure you guys are comfortable answering it but it basically says how much does water software systems affect temperatures and water systems or is the software more about to keep up the H H back like system in general. Do you have any experience without it all Chris. My understanding the software should just be more about putting less, I'm going to say tax on the humidification system, so that you're not putting hard water through the humidifier. Even with good water, the humidifier gets scale built up on it and needs to be cleaned or in some cases replaced, depending on the type of humidifier. So the water software helps reduce that amount of scale and how hard that water can be so it's less maintenance in the end. Thanks. Someone's also asking if you have only one logger again for placement of your locker, let's say now you only have one now your budget's been reduced you got your one that you can move around your system. Should you move it around to get an idea of how the building functions or do you guys think it's a better idea to kind of put it somewhere and just keep it stable in that one location. So Melissa, this is my, don't move your loggers I like to see them stay one year at least one year. What I, the, I see it all the time where an institution be like, well you're collecting data and you find out they moved it like every two or three weeks or every month and it, it doesn't really because remember what Melissa said is it you're, you're monitoring that immediate location and if you start to move it around. We're monitoring different locations and it's not telling a real picture of what it's sorry Melissa had to jump in there. Melissa said the exact same thing. Perfect thanks. Um, let's see. Um, because if you have a class a HVAC system in a room with high density shelving, what is the probability of micro climates forming, assuming the system is performing well and airflow does not seem to be an issue so that's kind of a specific HVAC question, but what kind of experience have you guys had with that. I have seen really good, really good mechanical systems in decent compact shelving. I mean, it's all a matter of circumstances, I guess we could say. I have seen a mold outbreak and more moisture issue occur in a really good design space compact shelving space with a mechanical system, mainly because it was the floor was poorly sealed and the water was coming up through the floor. And because that compact shelving is there it trapped it in those immediately over the location. So even though the airflow was good and they even you know had good airflow through the shelving the bottom two shelves of the compact shelf had issues because that moisture was coming up and just being trapped there. It really unfortunately comes down to more set of circumstances I've even seen poorly conditioned spaces that had excellent, you know just by by certain by happenstance. Let's see. So one says I'll do this is our last one because it just popped in and it's pretty interesting. I work in a historical building with data loggers on all four levels, each level shows a different RH and temperature. It's consistent but each level with its own microclimate. Have you worked in this kind of situation in general or have either of you had experience with that type of thing. Well, I was going to be a chance to go first tonight jumped in the other one. I'm just rereading the question, go ahead, Chris. We see it a lot. Typically, when we do some onsite evaluations, especially in historic structures, you'll see that stratification. We've worked in with a space that was three stories, and the basement was, you know, damp and really cold and then as you got to the attic, the attic was sweltering and very dry but there was similar do points throughout the space. And so we just had, you know, that though we had the same do point we had just a little bit of variation depending on the, the temperature of the space the air flow through the space the layouts of the space. And you know there are many factors playing this even the windows, which solar load we get in through the windows and how that would heat the rooms, played a factor but typically as we got higher in that building it just got warmer. Any other thoughts Melissa. Yeah, I also just wanted to point out really quick, something that happened in the chat, which said that someone asked a contaminated artifact can import mold into a space question mark and it's yes. And Angelica who's one of our community who's also part of Melissa's group over at conserve. Yes, there are mold spores in the air all the time, which is true. They're just kind of waiting for the right conditions to activate and yes that is also very true. Anything in my experience. We lived in Florida for most of their adult life and now was in Maryland and also a very moldy area it would appear. It's as soon as those we get that still air dark, you can get this microcosm and then all of a sudden mold just will bloom. It can happen. So it's not that unusual. And different things can elevate mold risk to so if you've had a mold outbreak in a certain space in the past then the risk is going to be higher to happen again. And mold also really enjoys dust. So it can be really important to keep your spaces clean because that can lower your risk for mold as well. And don't always believe the, what we were always told is mold can't grow on a metal surface flat metal. I was coming I read a site a few years ago and there was mold all over diffusers. So it can happen. I've, I've, yeah, like mold mold is impressive how it wants to live is all I'll say with with that and that also that you know lots of places will be like lots of over the counter things will be say, essentially, mold this take this will kill mold forever and yeah that doesn't always work mold mold likes to hide likes to show up again for sure. Well I'm going to go ahead and wrap up today's program thank you both for that that was great. I think it's really interesting that the science of data loggers has changed so much and so quick. And so the whole environmental condition and how we monitor it and working with our colleagues over in facilities and all that so I think it's always good to bring this subject up every few years or even every year just to make sure we're on the same page. We will go ahead and see about posting this recording within a few days. I also put a link in the chat that has a link to the resources and to the surveys we use for CDC care please do complete that survey we use them for future planning. And so we really hope you will do it. Huge thank you to Chris huge thank you to Melissa, huge thank you to I am a lesson if I see as always, and we will see you next month for a fun webinar about video production and collections care. So thanks everyone will see you in March and hope you have a safe and happy winter. Talk to you soon.