 .. not know what is happening here. These places is the Awoya Road, where you guys will send your people, they will, come, I don't know the contractor you gave this walk. You send your people, they will come and grade and scatter this road. After they scatter the road, they will leave it, you won't see them. See the kind of traffic and suffering it causes human beings. They've been looking for their votes. Look at it here, look at it, see road, see road, And there is, you have last man, who can control this, put pickles on the road. Nobody is doing anything. Every morning, every day, see human life. Do you know the health cost of this kind of problem? Do you know the high blood pressure, the negotiations are suffering? Mr. Sewalu, please, I am begging you, the contractor that is handling this project, Look at the nonsense, the three you come for the votes of people, you are give pressure, the contractor, zero. What is the problem? Alright, thanks for staying with us. Referencing a punch article from 2017, lawlessness reigns on Nigerian roads. Now, evidence of this reality is provided daily on major highways and cities. When the Lagos Ibarra Express was locked down for an entire day, the main reason was not just the bad portions of the road ongoing constructions and broken down vehicles or religious activities. It was also caused by the manic drivers driving against traffic unchallenged despite a multiplicity of members of law enforcement agencies. Now, yesterday we talked about legal state government, functioning of impounded vehicles and touched a bit on Undukwe's who's vehicle was impounded by the legal state government for flaunting traffic laws. Today we're still on that topic of lawlessness in Nigeria and we're asking, is it possible that we can actually curb lawlessness? But this time around we want to look at it from someone that has also been part of a government system. Now, please, let's hear what you have to say. Remember you can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 08-1-803-4663. You can also tweet at us and we should have gone with the hashtag we should. I'll bring in Olajide Oduya in a minute, but like that you were not here yesterday and you had an opinion about the conversation. What are your thoughts? Do you think it is possible for us to rise above lawlessness? Now, given that this video, this one, this lawlessness is on the part of government themselves because I don't understand why you bring in excavators. You are not holding your contractors to account bearing in mind that this particular road, this road is only one road. There's no, you can't have like options. Legos is just one way and once you are there, you are locked in there. If anything happens, I mean I told you of one time I saw a man, they carried him, four people had to carry him one hand, one leg, one leg, like that to take him to the hospital. Because he was, I think he had passed out because there's no way to get out of the traffic. But let me hear your thoughts quickly. Is it possible for us to be able to curb lawlessness in Nigeria? I say yes and the reason I say yes is I was old enough and wise enough to see what happened when we were under the war against indiscipline error with Buhari, I believe. And people conformed like what he said yesterday and without wasting too much time. Consequences without using draconian rules, let the punishments be, you know, commensurate with the offence and then make sure people are getting the consequences immediately when everybody starts getting punished, everybody will conform. Okay, let me read Daniel's message from yesterday. He says it's going to be my dear beautiful sisters of water. Are you saying lawlessness can be curbed in Nigeria? The answer is yes. According to Sister Uti, on the other hand, the truth is that being lawless is in our DNA. Anyone that is lawless should be made to face the music. This was from Daniel Illo yesterday. Are you still standing on that fact that it is possible? There's a bit of dynamism in all of this. There's a mixture. So if we are having lawlessness just on the part of one party, maybe it's easy. But now this thing comes from all parties. There's a part of the government place. There's a part that the citizens play. There's a part that people are supposed to be taking care of like contractors and all of that. They have their role. So it's very complicated. So that's why I'm wondering if it's possible. Yesterday we established that if the lawmakers or the law enforcers themselves are not held accountable, then there's chaos everywhere. Everybody is going to be affected one way or the other. The important thing is that like I mentioned yesterday that humanity, I don't agree with Daniel that it's in our DNA. It was learned behavior. And we've learned this behavior over a period of time. It will take us on learning this misbehavior and learning how to do things properly. When we put humanity in what we're doing, it's not just about our citizens. No, no, no. I mean, I'm talking about we human beings. If you know the right thing to do and you're considering your next neighbor, then you will do things properly. But if at the end of the day, you choose not to, you will also know that there is law, there are enforcers and nobody is above the law. I'm Lucy Pepe. ʻOla Gide Oduyo. He's a friend of the house and was the former GM of Legal State Traffic Management Authority last month. And he's currently the MD CEO of the House of Transport System. And he's joined us live in studio. We're super excited to be here. And he got the memo. And he got the memo. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. So where do we start from? This conversation is endless because like every single time there is anything going on on our road is almost like a complete lockdown. And I remember saying yesterday that it's like our law enforcement agencies, right? They actually derive pleasure in saying the chaos because that's the only way they know that some people will get some loose nuts off their head. And then break laws and then they now eventually generate that as revenue generation. Okay, this is the question. Is it possible for us to get to that point in Nigeria where we begin to curb lawlessness, especially on our roads? Is it possible? You've been there. They've almost jammed you before. No, not that they've almost. They actually jammed you twice. Wow. Sent to hospital. Wow. If I was convinced I was good, that was the end. Wow. That was how bad the impact was. But the point is, yes, it is possible to curb lawlessness. But right now I was at the conference today, online publishers for security networks supporting enforcement officers. So I would turn what is going on if I was to write a book just like my sister was just saying. We are all guilty. The government is guilty. The people are guilty. Those who are given the powers or the opportunity to enforce the laws are guilty. Now let's start and begin to break things down in critical mode. In the 60s, 70s, early 80s, every family was an enforcer. If you find a young lady dressing badly on the streets, every parent had a right to tell her off. You need your parents. Not your parents. Any parent. Even if they didn't do that. Any parent. So you had police everywhere. So every move you made, there's someone policing you. You go to secondary school, you're being policed. So we had an acceptable behavioural character then. But things have changed. And it's all like, oh, I've travelled to the United Kingdom, to the United States. Don't touch my child. I'm a 1990s parent. All sorts of things. So the lawlessness has just crept up, increased over the period. That is now behavioural pattern. Like you said, it's not in our DNA. Do you know that there are some Nigerians, they will save up money, they live abroad. They will save up money and come to Nigeria for holiday, honestly speaking, just to come and break laws. Because those same things are breaking, they cannot ever try over where they are. And that is the truth. They have enough money to say, at the end of the day, So that is what is inside. Because we have taken this place like no man's land. When I say this place, I mean the whole country, it's not just about legals. Before anybody is saying, it's because of legals, whatever. So what it is like, the government now, they are guilty of negligence. And I will say that because I was in there. The government is not acting like they really care about the people. They pretend sometimes that they have. And I give an example of just to say the roads. Okay, so you have the Legals Express Road. It's the only outlet from all the major estates that are coming up there. Now there are two things. So you need to improve the road condition to make it okay for the people that will apply the road. Otherwise it deteriorates, it deteriorates, it deteriorates, whatever. So there is a catch-law situation. So the government instead of trying to do the right thing in a proper way to accommodate the usage. The government wants to appear politically righteous and sort of make a big fanfare, grand fanfare. Where when I say they are not responsible is that the government does not see itself as servants. The government sees itself as facilitators, as if doing that road, paying for a mission, it's okay. It's as if they're doing the people a favor. And that is the wrong approach. You see, when you do a good thing as government any which way, right? Your think you would come in whichever way. You don't just because you're a public servant. And the money that is being spent is not your father's money. I refuse to say thank you to any government because you've repaired roads, because you've done hospitals. So what exactly are you doing there? Whose money are you spending? So we've gone into this situation where we give too much reference to government people and that is why they sit down and they lack like all the people. They should be thankful. Grateful and they were even doing the road. So instead of making sure that you and the contractor are locked in on agreement that the funding is there, you can guarantee because you know if the fault is, it's going to affect the people. So if you know you cannot afford to repair this road, don't start it. Don't start it. And come up openly and tell the people that you serve. Listen, we would love to do this thing, but we cannot afford it. Be open and transparent, explain to them, talk to them. So even if the road is still manageable, they know that you're saving up. Now in the next two years, right? It will be done and then the money is sorted out there. You're waiting for a location, you're waiting for oil price to go up, you're waiting for some which is the way budgeting goes sometimes. The point is, what is the risk factor analysis that if this money does not come in, how does it affect this thing? So you've got to weigh these things, right? So right now the people like that gentleman, he just saw the pain. He doesn't understand what is going on. He's pointing fingers at the contractor that he does not know. He's pointing fingers to government that he has not seen. All right? And even though it is the problem, what he was saying is like, he's looking for enforcement agencies to control the traffic and he can't find them. That's another bit there where the contractor goes out on a public highway, does not understand the pain of the people. So when he's supposed to pay, when he's supposed to pay and implement traffic management system, traffic management system means you're talking to the users of the road. They know that between this time and this time I'm going to be there, I'm going to restrict a three lanes to two lanes so you can plan your journey. They don't bother. It's only when you come out on the road and then you stop. And then they do all that doji, doji, doji, doji. They won't pay last month. They will do nothing. So last month was going to say, oh boy, you've collected billions for this thing now. We had a meeting that we're going to be there. You said you're going to pay for this to buy cars, to buy signs, to do all these things. And then you renegade on that and you don't pay nothing. And then you expect last month to come out in the middle of the night in the rain in this weather to come and suffer. And then by the time it's done, when the work is done, guess what the contractor is going to do? He's going to make you come and beg him and his whatever support from the government system to beg to pay the person that has suffered all night, left his children at home and wife to do this work. And so this has happened over the years. So there's no trust and there's no work in between the two. Absolutely. Let's take a very short break. This one, you just opened the can of worms. All right. Thanks for staying with us now. If you're just tuned in, we're discussing the topic part two. Can lawlessness be curbed in Nigeria? And we have with us. Do you have a day now, please? Let's hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to the red one, 8034663. You can also tweet at us at Weissho, after one of the hashtag Weissho. Lighting had a question. Yes. You remember that when you said last night, I moved and I was like, oh, is that where he's from? Now I'm thinking you were there in 2019. I think we are saying the same stories that we said back then. Could you enlighten me about what you were able to achieve in your term? Well, I'll tell you something, right? We need to have an understanding of how government works and government agencies. How I was able to was very difficult and so reason is, I got into an agency where all its offices are employed through the civil service system. And in a nutshell, even as the GM of that agency, I didn't have a single power to employ or to sack anyone. That's a shame. All right? And that being the case, there are officers that have been there for 15, 20, 25 years. So unfortunately, some of them saw me as an outsider and as the enemy that wanted to come and make a change to the system that they've been used to. It's so bad so much that even the hierarchy, said they say, ʻʻōjide o loʻiʻbu, ʻjiʻam o loʻiʻbu, that meant like I'm trying to bring changes to the system, a foreign thing and I don't understand what's going on. And so it brings us back to this lawlessness thing. That when I say we are all guilty, we have set of people in this our environment that they are enjoying the chaos. You see because if there's no chaos, all right? And if the roads are nice and clean and the road markings are there and all the traffic signs that are supposed to be there are there. There will be less revenue generation. There will be less infractions of traffic law. Because people now will be aware and because the purpose of a sign is to talk to me and tell me what you would like me to do, all right? But if that is missing, you're not leaving it to me to interpret what I'm supposed to do. Then if you're an agency who is just there to come and grab and to punish because the person who has employed you has given you the authority or the power or the avenue to do that, then you're waiting and looking in the shadows waiting for me to make error and then you pounce. Now that is not public service. So when I was there trying to change that I was still silent, but I had to do my job. I was, I mean I don't like to use I, but what I did then part of what you're asking is any officer or any report that we got or that I got of someone oppressing a motorist like they are now wearing everything. Once I investigate and I found you wanting as an officer the first thing is if there's any money that has changed you must return double of that money. I was able to do that within the authority. Since I know I'm not going to be able to sack you because really that is a sackable offence. But the process of sacking an officer who is politically connected is a long thing. Let's be honest. But I return that money. So that was gathering information like that GM if you collect money I will report you. So that changed a bit. But then I was still the enemy. And I can just imagine in every other areas of work agencies if you go there to go and change that you're not part of the political system you're not part of the elite political system you're really on your own. And that is why lawlessness is that's why even in the building industry, in the permit industry I tell you how do you have a corridor you don't have different access to road in case there are emergencies. And then you're given one part of government is given permit to supermarkets to banks to these without adequate all street parking spaces whatever and then you're not putting in the traffic management system to accommodate to cater for all that. How does that work? Because if I hear you correctly I want to come to normal because it seems like the entire structure of Nigeria as a body is structured to thrive in lawlessness because if I hear you correctly that's what I'm seeing. And there's one major factor it is oppression. We scream a lot about slavery of black people we scream a lot about people using discrimination for what part of the country you're from but I'm telling you there's something that is worse than lawlessness inside us as we speak now we enjoy oppressing on each other in whichever way the way some people drive and use police force to just it's oppression. Psychologically you're affected you're telling me that I am not worthy to be on the road so that when you come with a policeman, escort, whatever what are you driving because you're driving you're driving a 570 or g-wagon and then you put your flashers on and then you cover your plate number with black leather in this same environment but some of them would say that they are unsafe and that's why they're using unsafe but then you're also asking the question that if things were done right we would not have need for such display in the first place you are very right so how can we start doing things properly if we're going to make any headway by facing the truth and I tell you the truth is difficult to face if you're looking at yourself individually I take myself for example if I'm looking to gain a political appointment for example it would be difficult for me to come in this kind of space that's the way I'm talking you're going to be talking differently I'm going to have to be very quiet I'm not going to say anything against the government there's no way I'm going to even tell the government that they're guilty but you see the government people are forgetting that their human being is like the four of us they're forgetting that at one point in time they were not there they didn't have that position and at one point they wouldn't be there they keep on forgetting that everybody was born with any title even the Mr and Mrs you were not born with it and so we need to shift away from that fear factor of what you're going to get you see without sacrifice you can't make again so we need to start championing the truth amongst ourselves we are oppressors government people oppress everybody else downfall drivers because they are politically connected they drive and behave it's not because they are not afraid it's because they have powers that support them so they oppress last man will come he probably doesn't even know the traffic law that he's trying to put at that particular time because he's there each one is oppressing see my uniform police man comes he slaps you first and you think he wants to slap me he feels like he can get away with it why would a corpora would come and slap someone with a phd could I ask you this please why did they bring you in if they wouldn't let you do the job because they do that a lot to save face I know so in the beginning it was like oh you know they've done well they put the right the right peg in the right hole everything was fine and everything and so the chances are like I would just probably just to the line of they would just just really not like I should be grateful because number one I'm not from Lego state so I shouldn't feel like it's my entitlement because not and so I really should just be shaking and be shaking shaking but I wasn't looking at I was just looking at I couldn't bring myself to know that I'm a public servant and the things I'm doing is against the same public that I'm supposed to serve I just couldn't find some back and obviously that is a conflict among certain people who are born or precious who feel Lego is a place where any small offense or whatever instead of educating the person you just punish right there was one video that went viral that someone had gone when we were repairing Thornton bridge right the guy had missed his way he missed the timing so he had to drive against traffic between that shift over between the southbound and the northbound thing and then I thought it was so I chased after him when I stopped him I was asking him what have you done whatever and he's excused that the car broke down so the time factor caught in so he couldn't go this way he had to go back that way alright and the next thing now someone that was older than me was now prostrating on the ground now for me for anyone to go that low to do that it means like you saw it from inside of you and I'm like I just educated him and I told him to go but wait now let me bring a comment that we got yesterday it's a big matter it's a in my opinion one of the biggest being of our lawlessness as is the presence is the use of this word as a people check most that you use the word lawlessness and corruption is always present with them you know you're driving you now finally jam my car you now come and lie down prostrate on the floor to the extent that some foreign immigrants have to print please know a beg before you enter their country imagine burning the word a beg from our vocabulary maybe sanity may begin in the country this was a comment from yesterday benson because what she just said now alluding to the fact that an elderly person coming to lie down because this is also what I'll bring it back to what we what even started this conversation of the PDP person gubernatorial candidate and this deputy visiting one of the people that his cars was impounded that went to jail because he infringed a traffic law almost like endorsing that it was okay that's the impression you understand that's the thing you were endorsing his actions because somebody lost he's going to do it again yes because we are so somebody else will not we are so so that is no empathy right that is you accommodating and encouraging lawlessness so when you use that word a beg and somebody comes and lies down and whatever how does that how would it ever translate into people actually doing the right thing when I know I can just beg you and I will be able to go for that shouldn't we start to look more into yes I accept your apology but you still need to there are laws that you must you must consequences yes consequences yes sir before you answer I wanted to say about the oppression thing that someone was saying people use the policemen and everything because they feel unsafe I think they feel unsafe because of the games they play with one another absolutely number one because if the prime minister of the United Kingdom can ride bicycle and get on the underground if because of what you know you are doing wrong exactly that is making you afraid if I didn't do anything wrong but I'm not trying to kill somebody for a position why should I be afraid to walk in the streets and then again database being well put in place so that we can send fines to people's homes without even accosting them on the road putting CCTV this would all take everything away but the reason why they don't invest the money someone has chopped down money I'm sure they've released the funds for such things more than once in this country but knowing who we are somebody has chopped it and the money they find the funds coming their way they won't let it go the right way because those funds stop when the eating is sorted once and for all I think there's a conflict because someone would ask what right has the government got to punish a road offender for certain things especially like maybe let's look at bad driving driving against traffic against traffic so somebody will come and say you go to some area like Feistock or the Ojo area and your whole side of the road is so bad like you know if you go there you're not coming back except maybe you're driving SUV with giant wheels all right and so you're forced to go to this side sometimes enforcement officers would allow you to do that but there's no sign of consistency so next time you just assume that since I was allowed to last week I can do it so there's all these things going that's what I said about the irresponsibility part of government to clearly communicate what you said about it horrible no sign none whatsoever you must communicate you must tell me when it is okay or not okay whichever way and you must invest in it because if you do not invest in talking to the motorists you do not have any moral right to come and punish me and yes I agree we must eradicate this begging thing and the begging thing comes because someone hit my car begging for what and then all that nonsense of like you're bigger than please don't talk to me about my bigger than anything because someone like me I look after my clothes so I have clothes of 10 years and it should still look good I have nobody in the last year because I don't have money to buy new ones so because you're looking at me you've already assessed like oh this one is big money I have money no I don't have money because you don't have access to my account now you're supposed to have insurance we just exchange details this third party I am third party you can coverze you yes he covers me so you hit my car what do you want me to go and use my money to pay for what you've done it's a bad situation for us and you know what it is it's still the same oppression even the poor oppresses of us any opportunity I use emotional pressure then we use that and guess what they're going to say say oh then you know first of all say shebi don't beg you oh my good name shebi will and I'll be begging him and when you're begging you'll be begging him again you can say it's all too much now what do you want to carry on and go now thank you now what did you so we have issues but you see but if we do not insist on our rights and you're right if you keep on accepting, begging begging, begging we're not going to get you tried people will continue to be that is why the Danful drivers behave the way they behave because they can get away with all sorts of nonsense and nobody wants that's why when they form My wife even fights with me like Just leave them You can't change the country But somebody must make a stand Let me tell you what I did one day Very briefly On that road, that one-year road that leads from four points To the one-year market You know it's two lanes And then some side streets coming in So normally when you're coming out to join the road You do a swing A swing rather So they cut themselves in the lane that they weren't supposed to be They obstructed the people that were going the right way They refused to move back Now I don't have authority But this is where Nigerians have to start taking laws into their hands As tiny as I am I got down and told the guy that was in the wrong Reverse He was looking at me at first Reverse And then the person was trying to accommodate me wrong I said stay where you are It is your right Reverse As God will have it as the angels of heaven will back me I am telling you Military men came down And started slapping the face of the man that I told to reverse That was happening Somebody backed me up But Nigerians have to start doing it for one another I said we are oppressive human beings And exactly what you are saying is Let's just say somebody is forming a third lane And I am in the right lane So I shifted a little bit here To stop him from continuing to do that And guess what The person who is behind me Instead of supporting Guess what he is going to try to do He is going to try to overtake me and take my space in front And leave me in limbo To look like a fool Since you are the one that knows what you want to change We are not okay We are not okay Let's take questions I think the court take a way is education We need to continue to enlighten citizens We have a second to ask him what he suggests We can do in training Let's quickly take the comments Carbon lawlessness in Nigeria Must be a deliberate effort of the leadership To make citizens the real owners Of the entity Nigeria Today leaders in Nigeria are like emperors Loading on their subjects Is it loading or loading Loading Loading on their subjects with impunity Because my mother said You did that Alright Bobby Kennedy from Djalingus says The issue of lawlessness in Nigeria Once again can be curbed The government are the major culprits And government solu Or governor solu Should know That he is still going to contest in the next elections I am just wondering What he is going to tell the people Anyone found wanting To be dealt with severely And else Or else we are doomed Great one tonight And then we have this one from Daniel And he says good evening My dear beautiful sisters What are you saying hashtag ways Can lawlessness be curbed in Nigeria We can curb it with the help of ourselves And total cooperation So I don't know why you had to apologize For not reading my comments yesterday It was not your fault It was your time and I understood perfectly You have never ignored my comments before The ladies of ways are just simply The best One love at a show Thank you Daniel You are always very consistent So that was why I had to apologize We look forward to seeing you one of these days The question lady asked And to wrap up with what Norma was saying If we really want to start to Make a change Where would be a good place to start We have like barely two minutes I think communication And education of the public Transparency Because there is lack of trust I was telling the police formation today When they are saying can citizens Help them in gathering information And everything I said yes they can But that is if they trust you And what is the trust that if I give you information And you are supposed to keep me anonymous I need to be sure Otherwise I am not going to offer you anything So we need to trust The people that say they are government Like are you real Is your yes yes Are you pretending or you are just saying this Just to exactly Are you Do you mean well Are you doing me a favor or are you just doing your job I must trust that And once we begin to educate ourselves I am trying to see the implications Of what we do Then that will change But you see the people Must also understand That for every oppressive behavior Inside you To another person that calls yourself Nigerian It means you do not love your country Because the country is about The people that says I am Nigerian There is no geographical boundary That can be held or changed by any human being But the people are the ones that are Nigerian For every day you oppress me You don't love your country So don't come and lie to me That you are a patriot or whatever As long as you are chasing You are oppressing And you are trying to humiliate someone That has not had the opportunity that you have Absolutely See how we love him And he is a friend of our house Thank you so much And for every time we call him He is always present Thank you so much Now thank you ladies Peace Before we go follow us on Instagram Twitter everywhere You can interact with us further Drop a comment and most importantly Follow all our engagements on social media Like share and invite your families and friends to watch And follow the conversation Now if you missed today's quote heritage again Injustice and lawlessness Is the greatest terror A government can ever enforce On its own people We can't say it's We'll see you guys live at 8pm tomorrow As a ladies night As we bring another great conversation To your screen Bye