 Good morning. Um, we're just waiting for a few more people to join. We'll just wait one more minutes So I can put more people to Intense getting on a plane. Yeah, so he's a train. I was really hoping for Let us do the journals. All right, Amy. I see you're on You put the number one thing in the agenda being the last time that I came by here There wasn't anything on the agenda and I wanted to make sure that we had at least a conversation about the six George logo and Getting towards being able to actually have a full vote. Um, any reason not to be able to have a full vote on things Oh Cool, um, uh, really just kind of wanted to check in we're like the hey look making sure that we like people know that We are trying to be able to get a logo Cool. So I don't know if uh, if you guys have uh, have seen the the github issue Yeah, I've just put um, I've just placed it into the chat the the pdf that Uh, that Amy has uh, very helpfully Uh done for us Um, we kind of have A clam because clams store pearls and pearls are precious. I know it's a bit corny Take on that's where we are. Um The other groups are question animals. So, you know, here we go Yeah, indeed So anyhow, if if any of you have any Uh, any strong opinions on this could you please Uh vote. Yeah, your name for any of the particular items My my vote is for the top right hand corner Because it's a clam and it's got the cnc. I sort of logo kind of thing built into it, which Um Makes it clear soft like a criminete is sick Yes, obviously Uh, I the only question I had was uh, would we eventually want to add personality to these things? uh Will we be able to add eyes or something later in case we want to animate them? Yeah, if you wanted to be able to do that, I don't think like our designer would have a problem with that Uh, I'm I'm more just looking at it like oh, this has been out there for a while We should we should decide on things that would be good Yeah Greetings, so we were we were we were just uh discussing the the logos that Amy put together. We really should just decide on one forward Alex do you want to share your screen so that we can actually look at those? logos. Oh sure Yeah It's it's in the guitar I think I like the one that I I think I like the one that you picked as well the The one on the top right see that's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you see the screen? Yeah, yes, so I don't know if you can see my mask, but it's I can see it. Yeah. Yeah, I like that one too Yeah, that's fine with me too I like it. Although the one with the eyes makes it look like I don't know what I'm doing or I'm hiding Maybe that's how we feel more often than that Yeah, yeah, I agree. Let's not put eyes on it. So it's time to do things fully by fiat. Um, uh Being able to put out a vote for like what the top three of these would be All right. I think what I'll do is I'll just circulate an email and we can I can quickly vote for reply and I think we can move this forward today. Hopefully sounds like a plan Cool. Thank you Okay, um, so Hi, hi, Louise. By the way, uh, thanks for joining. Um, so we wanted to We wanted to get an update of where we were with the use case example and template Um, that's who uh, that you are working on and putting together um, the link is in The 15 minutes, but I will also Stick it in the chat in the interesting case um The documents we are going to discuss I asked two people to join in the call Uh, one is deep tea. She's a maintainer of itess and she can contribute to the um To the use cases and the other one is a safe al-hati. He's been doing All our benchmarks, so he'll be able to contribute to the benchmark document Excellent awesome. Okay So so Louise do you want to take us through the application documents? Yeah, um, just myself and simon. This is way back. Uh, so Let me get Here That's great, so Um, hold on real quick. I don't see the link to your is this spreadsheet the link Louise. No, it's it's down No, it's it's on the cncf. It's right here. So if you go to september 11th And then there's a link there use case example I also put the link in the chat Yeah, when I open that it's not I'm linking directly to it Okay. Oh, it's this one right here meeting minutes is just coming up as august 27th and nothing else I don't know if anyone else having all my computer I guess yeah, yeah, oh august 27th is the is the top of the doc I just don't think it's loading it. I'm sorry guys No, this is the right doc. Yes august 27th. That's correct I'm sharing the screen. So you're correct. So what we have Uh, let me start start with those are new That we had discussed a model Of something to do We wanted to give some documentation for users After they read the storage 101 document which describes What is block? What is file? What is object? What is the database and so on? So once they read that and they have a preliminary concept of what storage is then they probably want to ask well How do I use application x what storage system or persistence storage should I use with application x? and This is what the goal of this task is And what we wanted to do is we had a lot of discussions. I think just before august 27th on what Is the output of this pro of this task will be? Uh, we had first that it would be a a document That has uh, many Applications in it. We also had discussed on the output being a github markdown Pages where the community themselves would Uh, you know, we would start it, but it would be like, you know, the community will continue it Where they would bring an app? Uh document and they would describe how it interacts with those persistent storage services that are described in the storage 101 document And uh, so with that Simon and I From Simon from Pure Storage and I got together and kind of started thinking, you know, just brainstorming on what would it take to actually accomplish this One of the things that we started looking at is that We may need more information and This is what we had this section down here. We may need more information in down in the 101 document just to as references because the These application documents may have uh, some new concepts as new ideas On technologies that are not familiar with for these newcomers and they may require more information in the What's called the landscape or what we call storage 101 document? Now that being said then the next part was How would it be done? How would it be included and one of the things that we came up with was it probably be as simple as not Maybe a not a document a massive document for each application But maybe keep things simple right almost like a brief For each application where an application you could have We could have a matrix of an application and and how it deals with You know with we got storage and then we got applications and then the application could have its own page On and making you know not making 20 pages Anything like that just a couple of pages on how it deals and provide more information how it deals with that persistent storage So that's where we left it and uh, I haven't gone back to this since this date And that's what we are So this application you mean by application we mean application like mysql and Cassandra and stuff right Because mysql Cassandra any application that Kafka any application that we think of today any application that we think of tomorrow So we're trying to to start with something simple, you know, so It's going to be iterative. We are going to see we're going to try it. We're going to See what works and then we're going to keep adjusting But yes, exactly right. If I'm a customer, I don't think of storage first, right I'm customer if I'm a customer that I think of my application first of my collection requires And I come up with that question is how I require Kafka for my application What do I do? Right? Uh, how do I deploy that? What is the correct? storage system To not not storage system as in product, but what is what storage technologies should I be going after right? That's the whole goal of this this Work does that make sense? That totally makes sense And I had an idea and of course I'm going to throw a wrench in it because that's what I do louise. No, it's all good What if we built Where people could add in their particular storage and I mean we the tool could identify different criteria like we put in the white paper about storage and how it runs But then it could be more of a living The problem I have with a lot of these docs is their point in time like You know, we've talked about oh, we shouldn't put that in or we should use this example of this particular vendor and that will become stale over time And we all know we're not good at documentation and we're not going to go update it But what if I had like a tooling where someone came on and said I have my application The test or something right like and I I want to know what I should back with persistence for that And, you know, whoever is part of that project the tests or even any of the cnccf projects They could go enlist the criteria of what that storage capability is And then that way someone could use this tooling to say, oh, I'm either using this or I'm thinking of using a product that needs High performance they could search kind of this database and then that way people could You know submit a github to update their new project as it comes along and then the landscape is more of a living document than These point in time documents Would anyone be interested in working on something like that? The the only thing about that is that is that referring to products? or projects I I guess I see like I'm hoping that we continue to evolve the the SIG to You know in improve the landscape for storage within cncf because it's you know compared to other projects. It's probably pretty Uh slim and then you know, you would be able to take these sandbox or incubation or whatever and and see what's you know Involved what criteria it has. I don't know. I don't know if we'd limit it. Yeah for what? I don't know I'm just kind of definitely agree with the fact that especially Storage is still something that's like still evolving. I think a large number of people are going to be making Progress so which means that things are going to change So that part definitely makes sense, but what I cautioned Right is I I would prefer That this doesn't become a marketing tool for projects That's my only concern. Yeah, that was the other side of the concern also Now if we can say for example that You know an application requires the following uh things right specs or Maybe icons of of of values of storage, you know object, you know object whatever and then s3 or Block uh within provisioning, you know something like that and then What I I'm suggesting and this is just suggestion that on the product page of a product Or a project that on there They refer to the names used in cncf and say look we provide the following things Right, so now the customer can say oh, okay. I can go to a cncf and see what The names are for everything And then I can go to the product that I'm looking at and seeing if it satisfies what I'm looking at so so I think we're getting we're We're Conflicting two different things here. So so first so first of I think we had agreed that rather than calling it application We were going to call it a use case So that we can use this for sort of end user applications, but also, you know projects and things like that And and specifically I don't think we were What we wanted to do here was to get To a stage where we have a template Where we can say for the c use case and the say, you know the use case could be kassandra. It could be mongo It could be jenkins. It could be kafka. It could be Etsy the or primates or whatever Then we would for that particular use case. These are the things that you need to That you need to consider So we would say you can use it this way and you can deploy it using using these things And we would And we would consider things like locality and perhaps how to how to back it up and and things like that So for example, we we we would create a template that could list a number of different options And the idea would would be that people could then the community could then use prs to say, okay So for kafka, for example, if you're doing kafka with, I don't know Eps volumes, for example, this is a way you can do it. And if you're doing Etsy the on google cloud, this is the way you can do it And it would but it would include The same, you know, five or six parameters or whatever the five or five or six Sections from the template that would be kind of mandatory for for every option for that use case And then the community can kind of build this out But I think the first thing is we need to lock in That's templates and at least one example And if we do that, we can then launch it and we can get the community to to contribute, right? Because We we could we could then ask The different projects. So, you know, things like, you know, the kafka project or or Database projects or whatever else to to actually contribute some of their own examples themselves Yes, I agree. And the only thing I Just want to adjust is the last part you said like kafka on EBS like I'm trying to be very careful on You know specifying a product I don't know if we should go in that direction. This is the only again. I keep bringing this up This is my main concern always, right? We're trying to make it so it's generic So I would Adjust it just saying kafka on block right on roblox or kafka on and that's what I would say That's my only adjustment to what you just said. Let me know that what you think about that. Yeah, sure That makes sense. I mean, we you know, we could we could say for example This is how you do kafka on a storage class using read write once For example, and then you could have another one with read write many or whatever else and maybe another one with an object store Whatever else, but the you know, I kind of agree with that But we do need to also keep in in mind to make some provisions for You know things like data locality or How do you how is the best way to back this up for example and things like that? So so we may need to include things Or technologies which might be you know different for different Providers, but that's probably okay too And actually locality and backup and restore. I don't think those are in the landscape Are they? um I think we do talk about locality. Yeah, we do talk about locality in the landscape. Okay. Okay, um, we do and we do talk about point-and-time backups and snapshots and things like that. So Okay, cool. So I think those things are covered The the the thing that you have there about sort of storage appliances and you know some advanced topics like nvmu for fabrics and things like that I think they're kind of interesting But I think they're they're Perhaps maybe for a version two more advanced kind of topic. I mean, I don't think that is um Relevance to a large part of the audience, but I'm kind of welcome to comment on that. Okay So so okay, so Going back to Aaron's question. Does this make sense? I Okay, have we adjusted or Can we come up? I still think that the third point that things are going to evolve I lead and so what we write today is going to become obsolete. So we need something for that Yeah, so one of the things that we're thinking of is that this is going to be in Uh in git as a markdown and then people can just send prs to update it. Um, that's one mode Uh, I don't know unless there's another We'll just have to have people updated as new projects come in now I mean we'll have to have the process so that it does get updated. Um and and I love the idea Alex of it being use case centered. I think that's always how it should be like Casa where we are kind of pointing to product, you know what I mean? I don't know. Yes and no We could be even more Generic, right? I have a messaging system I mean block storage, which projects currently provide block. I don't know if we want to break it down into something even Well, so so so the reason the reason why The reason why I think it shouldn't be too abstracted is because for this to be useful it kind of needs to be It kind of needs to be relevant to a use case. So for example, you know, if we're talking databases um Is it a good idea to have multiple volumes for say transaction logs To split up the transaction logs or the data or whatever else or with Kafka? For example, you know, can you balance the load across? multiple volumes And when we come to the performance side of things, you know, you could actually say that for example You know things like Kafka, for example are sequential writes throughput limited And that's an important thing to consider on the sort of on the on the product that you're choosing for example, and In order to do backups, for example, you might choose a particular layout or another layout because that's a better way of doing the backups So so I think it is useful to be specific because otherwise you're just going to have a fairly generic thing where every use case Will just become hey, just use just use a storage class and it doesn't matter But in reality it does matter and if we abstract it too much, I think it becomes less useful Okay Maybe I'm just thinking out loud The goal of this Is so that when users read the 101 document And they have an idea of what applications want to use They can go to the storage vendors and ask the correct questions right And they can go to the website and say oh this use case requires the following things or suggests the following things And then they can go to the storage vendors said what do you think of this? Can you provide this? And and then that way they're they're empowered Which is I think the entire goal of what we're trying to do does that make sense? Yeah Yeah, I really can encourage the storage vendors to to PR and updates the staff too Yeah And on the point about sorry go on Now I was just going to say on the point of you know, the things need to be need to be updated we we could We could put like a simple expiry date or something like that on the On each of these Use cases that they need to get reviewed once a year or something or once every two years or something like that and if if it goes past the expiry then we could trace a PR to To archive it unless anybody wants to update it within a certain time so that we can kind of keep them current I think it's a cool idea I think uh, maybe the first thing is to take a stab at one And just as a how is it called the straw man? And just start poking at it. All right. I thought we adjusted to what we want Yeah, I mean what would be absolutely awesome would be to get To at least get the template done with maybe some really simple example In time for cube card so that so that we can we can Uh, we can launch it in the in the sake meeting that we have a cube card and hopefully that will encourage some of the community to to To contribute. Okay. I will start a template on the six doors GitHub as a markdown thing and then you just talk there Okay That's brilliant Yeah, I wanted to just uh kind of echo what louise was saying. We just really have to be careful because this is uh territory that could Lend us in controversy. So as much as possible if we could avoid Kind of saying hey, this is a specific product or recommending products That would be best for us as generic as we can remain While still being helpful uh should kind of be our guiding guiding light Completely. Yeah Yeah, you know, we're not endorsing any products. We're simply providing an example. There might be other ones I mean, we just we have to be very we just have to be very careful about that Yes I'll put it a little disclaimer on the top Don't blame me just a messenger Uh All right, I think we're good with this. I'll add this to the minutes of the This link to the minutes of the other room brilliant okay, um the The other thing that I wanted to To cover was the performance documents so To do I know you are supposed to set up a chat in the meantime. I had um sat down with uh with nick connelly Um and started putting an outline together. So I'll just share I'll just share the link in the chat Um I'm sorry. This is ridiculous. I've been waiting too many meeting minutes Conferencing is still All right, I don't know if you can see that now This is a problem with having 120 tabs open any house um so So the idea behind this performance and benchmarking doc Is to provide users with a better understanding of the performance of storage systems And to give them some information on the tools that we can use And also documents, you know, some of the some of the Very common pitfalls Um specifically we're saying we're saying that, you know, we're not looking to publish any benchmark numbers here. We're not um looking to provide any comparisons and um proposing that we Exclude tools for distributed benchmark because I think that's probably too complicated for for first draft um of this document So what I've done here is I've tried to put an outline together based on some emails that I've had back and forth with a couple of you and um And tried to sort of capture the the ideas which I which we can then start to to flesh out So as as a as a as an introduction Um, it's going to be heavily focused on saying Um, that's the best way forward is always to to test your own application Um not to use um published results because that's that's really a useful way to compare systems And And we're also going to talk about using tests to probe A particular performance issue or to help, you know, select a platform or to compare your own platforms we're going to have We're going to have a section on common concepts Um, where we will refer to the landscape white paper to cover different storage types Um, we'll talk about different volume workloads and different database workloads um, and we will talk about some of the different measurements, um And the units of measurement and things like that that you'll be looking at when we've been doing benchmarks. So things like, you know Through because I absolutely can see et cetera, but also things like the variance Between different benchmark runs resources of those benchmarks are going to use scalability that kind of thing um, have a general talk about the architecture um, and the topology so um, reminding how the different layers in a storage system all contributes to the performance Um, talking about some of the storage attributes because I want to have a section in here to say Um to to describe how things like consistency availability and data protection And have the effects on on on the performance and how you measure that um, and also, you know understanding Things like cues and things like that after topology to to kind of understand Why, you know, you might get one result when when testing a single volume or a single database versus testing multiple databases in an environment that kind of thing um and then Because benchmarking is one of those things It is quite horrible and there are lots of Many common pitfalls and things to consider um We've we've written in quite a long list of Of things that you need to That you need to consider and that people often get wrong um So i'm not going to sort of read through all of these but you know happy to have lots of comments here um and we You know the idea is that for each of these will will will have maybe a couple of sentences or a paragraph to kind of describe the issue and and why the And why it impacts the performance of the system There are a few areas that um, we kind of discussed Covering some advanced Topics things like you know new minds scalability testing and things like that which Which i've kind of put into this advanced listing here because i'm not sure whether we we'll actually go through it or not But we might include just a reference To it as something we'll we'll do in the future um And then finally there is a section on um On the benchmarking tools So first off Things that you need to sort of level set the what i'm calling the level setting the environment so, you know understanding The the performance of the the cluster that you're running on settings like you know the the cpu um performance and and the network performance of the notes that you're running on And some tools you can use to um to To benchmark those And then volume benchmarks Where i'm proposing we focus on ifio and the database benchmarks where i'm proposing that we focus on on suspense so I'd love to have Sort of comments or feedback on this And then we can We can break up the the different sections and have difference Different people Contributes i'm going to be sort of driving as much of this as i can because it's a thing i'm fairly passionate about And again, i'm kind of i'm kind of aiming to get to a point where we where we have A draft that's that potentially we can publish and talk about For for qcon so that we can get more comments from the from the community and more feedback from the community at that stage So that was a long monologue So there's one thing i i uh almost forgot to mention i was i don't know if you've heard of a company called perkona they actually Are a consulting company that offers support for open source databases They've been Yeah, so they are they've done extensive work on benchmarking And uh, they said that they would be interested in contributing so Uh, you want to fantastic Yeah, I will Find out that is a service or how does that work? Or they just do it out of the Goodness in their heart. I mean do we need to get funding from the cncf to do that? How does Uh, no, I think they are they are willing to do it on their own. I can find out if If they are looking to get paid it didn't sound like they wanted to get paid. They just wanted to contribute That's wonderful them Yeah, that would be that would be absolutely great Yeah, and Actually, that's that's a good point is perkona also to um They've done a lot of work with uh performance dashboards and things like that as well Yeah, they have spent years on this so they know these things inside inside out Yeah, no, that would be fantastic Yeah, Alex. Are you going to show some of the Results of running those tools? Uh, just have some type of some kind of visual or even some output from the console just so that people can Uh Understand exactly, you know, what are what are those concepts? Absolutely. So so the idea would be for example with The idea would be that for you know, so so I think we We we described, you know, say some of the different The different workloads that we would be talking about so we would give Um, we would give examples for for both volume benchmarks and data benchmarks for Those specific workloads. So so there would be examples of running the results and how to interpret the results Okay, great. Yeah, that'll be helpful but as with all of these things right um We we we have to You know, it's it's it's it's gonna have to be we're gonna have to limit the scope of everything that we can do You know, I guess some of these um products, you know, like if I offer example has Probably about 500 different options and so we'll focus on some of the more common things Yeah, sure so I mean long story short. I'd love to I'd love to um Get comments or feedback to this things you think we should add things that maybe you disagree with um, and if anybody Is interested in in helping with particular sections on a super new team work. We're interested in obviously doing some of the database stuff um, let's let's mark those out and And maybe we can start putting some content together Yeah, so safe safe will uh, uh, share the Lua scripts and the suspense configurations that he used And maybe give a little guidance on that so that he can take care of I uh, I actually I remember you sent me your email, but I don't know where you sent it to me Is it uh Chill cop com Alex Okay, I will I will make sure that I I send you I connect you to both safe and the persona person I'll find out their email and then you can Take it from there Awesome, uh, that's brilliant Hi, Alex. This is the one question I had was uh I know safe has also done a benchmark using tpcc. Is that something you consider for the database benchmarks? um, yeah So so super had to mention this and that would be that would be certainly something of interest um, we needs to um We need to kind of see how we can make this easy or straightforward for somebody to actually do however, right because um You know, I think I think I put a comment in here About sort of preparing the environment for for for benchmarking, you know, I'm obviously aware of tpc has some particularly stringent requirements in terms of, you know, numbers of clients and network topologies and things like that so um If if we can make it in a simple way that somebody can actually do Then I guess it's something we should do Because that's obviously quite well understood standardized test um But but that would be sort of my my main consideration there okay So the goal of this document is to not only um Provide Uh guiding philosophy for benchmarking but also to provide the basic tools That's right. That's right. Um, and and you know, the reason why we're we're covering things like the pitfalls as well And and setting up the the environment is so that you know, we can avoid people Getting sort of bogus results, right because I've lost I've lost track of the number of times for example I don't know somebody has done A database benchmark on a on a one gig database which runs entirely in cash and you know, get some ridiculous results for example Okay. All right. So so so thanks. Um, super and siphons Um And DT that all of your help will be Incredibly appreciated. Thank you very much unless there is anything else to To cover those are the many things we had on the agenda. Um, one thing I was going to ask was um Just a reminder if anybody had feedback for Aaron's documents now it's a time to to To provide that this is the documents that we discussed last meeting Um for the project review process I don't know if you if you've had a chance to move that forward Um, I know that the TOC was actually reviewing it and adding stuff and um In their meeting when they invited me over so I haven't looked at it for probably a week or so But yeah, I mean I think since we're one of the first six We should help kind of set some I don't want to say rules, but some process forward about how projects get reviewed and the criteria and then what happens when we turn them over to the TOC because right now I've feedback I've gotten from various projects as they feel like It's kind of chaos And it still seems like there's a you know a duplication of work between What we're doing in the SIG and then Projects suddenly presenting as well to the the TOC, you know, so we need to figure out that balance So yeah, any feedback or suggestions the doc is meant to just kind of set up a straw man and get people's feedback I'm not trying to dictate how I think we should do things. So I People have the time might appreciate them looking at that please cool Um, I meant to ask you as well. Um, you know we had um put together Sort of a template of like a kind of questionnaire or a survey For the projects to fill in as part of the information gathering for for say a sandbox project Is is that sort of template is going to be part of your document or or would that be like a separate artifact? Yes, I think we should put that in there. I think I love the idea of it and I think all SIGs should develop Kind of a similar template based on criteria for their specific subject matter area So thank you for reminding me of that. I will put that into the document because I think that helps projects figure out if you know That's even the level that should be going in if you're answering those initial questions Um, etc. So yeah, let me add that in alex and I'm gonna put it out Cool. All right Does anybody have Anything else that they wanted to uh to mention or bring up? Silence, I guess that's good All right, um, so We'll be meeting in a couple of weeks Um, Erin will put the agenda forward for that for that call Um, and I think that's going to be the last meeting before Um before kubecon, so Um, it would be it would be uh, if we wanted to get the use case templates And the performance drafts out Um for kubecon, that would be a really good time to to check once those documents No pressure everyone Thanks. All right Thank you If we're done Bye. Bye