 Good morning or good afternoon, everybody. My name is Craig Villarubia, and I'm excited to be joining you from Hawaii's lives. And I am here to interview David Hochmeister, a friend, and most of us who are probably watching know David from his extensive teaching, spiritual teachings of a Course in Miracles. He's traveled all around the world extending the teachings of a Course in Miracles, spiritual principles, but more importantly from my perspective, David has really been an example of the Course of Teaching and has inspired many of us with the Course in Miracles. And from a personal note, I have to say that over the years, David has been a symbol for me in leading spirit-led life and a demonstration for us all. So welcome, David. Thank you for meeting with me. I'm excited to talk to you about your new book, as well as some of having an enlightening conversation about this awakening process. Thank you, Craig. Yeah, it's always a blessing to come together with you and whether we do it digitally or I have been to Craig's house and farm where he is right now. And I have to say, that's a beautiful blessing to look out over the Pacific Ocean and have that reminder every day of the vastness. It's quite a little perch that you have there at the ranch. Yes, yes. For those of you who may have had an opportunity to come out here and see pictures online, yes. I'm happily perched up here on the mountain and I look at it as a vast ocean, which certainly symbolizes the depth of our true identity. And you recently released a new book, which has been the inspiration of this interview. Can you share a little bit about the inspiration behind the book, how it came about? I know you've written many books before, but this book, which is titled This Moment Is Your Marathon, it feels a little different. And I'm really excited about it. It seems like the format's a little bit different. Can you share a little bit about your thoughts on it and how it came together? Yes, I've got a copy here. It's a pretty green book with kind of goldish letters and it seems like it's just like most things in my life, it's a result of collaboration. It's a result of inspiration. I think for me over the years with so much traveling and speaking, I think we all kind of get into our function and our rhythm and for me, I was more like a talking mystic just going where I was invited and kind of giving myself over to Jesus decades ago and then it seemed to play out mostly as traveling and speaking. So it was a lot of airplane rides and a lot of hours in cars and lunches and dinners and holy encounters all over the place. But still the collaborations, that's even how some of the other books came about was just people were inspired by whatever they heard or recorded, and it was audio or video and then turned them into transcripts and then into books where this was New Harbinger and Reveal Press basically approached me and there was a man named Ryan who's a very sweet man He said, you're very authentic. It's like, I can really feel this. I can really feel the teachings and I feel the presence and everything. And he was saying, I would really like to have this go out in a more expansive way and really touch people and reach a lot of different people. There are many people that aren't even Course in Miracles students, but they're very interested in spiritual awakening and they would love to tap into it, both the teachings and the practice of it and feel the presence much stronger in their life and feel a sense of intuition and guidance. And New Harbinger, I'd heard of New Harbinger before and I knew that they even had a branch over in England called Non-Duality Press with Rupert Spira and a lot of Muji and different ones and I resonate with Non-Duality. Both you and I, Craig, have resonated for many years with Non-Duality. And we even looked at that, Non-Duality Press, New Harbinger and he said, wouldn't it be great to have kind of a book of some of your really deep teachings that would go out in a way that would be more like, he said, like return to love. I think when Marianne Williamson first came on the scene and put a book out and people were like, what is this Course in Miracles and what is this that resonated in a broader way? Because a lot of my books, you know, some people would even say are more for intermediate and advanced or very advanced students and so that was the spirit of the collaboration that came together. And a lot of people I work with and live with in community and over the years, we had people coming that were from all walks of life and we had a publishing team and a transcription team and all kinds of collaborations going on. And then one year of the whole publications team that kind of dismantled, everybody left at the same time and they were just astonished. The rest of the people looked at me and went, what does it mean? The publishing team is dismantled. It's everybody left at the same time. I said, well, it looks like, you know, we're not going to be self publishing in that way anymore. And then shortly after that, Ryan Berge contacted us and was just saying, would you like to write a book for New Harbinger in a very kind of collaborative way? And we have a lot of skilled people on our staff and it's what we do for a living, you know, we publish books and you teach. And so maybe, you know, I've got a brand new pair of roller skates. You've got a brand new key. So there, you know, I think we should get together, you know, and it's kind of like, that's how this book came about was actually again through a spirit given collaboration where it was collaborating with a professional publisher and I'm open to that. I'm happy to collaborate with really with anyone at all. So when it comes in, it just comes in very obvious, very given and with a lot of certainty. And that began, we'll say like a two and a half year process to bring the book into fruition. Beautiful. And you know, when I said that this one felt different, at the same time, the content is the same, the message I was saying. But what it felt like, I started reading the book and immediately I felt, whereas with the other books and not that one is better than the other is just my experience. I felt like I was sitting at a top. And this book, I felt like you were holding my hand. It felt, yeah, it felt very, yeah, very guided in a way that you hold in my hand, especially when you get to the practical exercises. I really feel like you're sitting with me to say, you know, let's watch this movie together. And, you know, the questions and so I hear you and when you say it was fairly broader because I think it is, although the teaching is still as deep as ever, it seems to reach a new height and practicality, which your teaching has always been practical and bringing the spiritual teaching of practicality to life. So it really takes it to another level or a deeper level. Yeah, I really feel that too. It's the feeling behind it and practicality is so important. I mean, it's always been important, but it just seems to get more and more and more even more important as we go along. I think people want relevancy in their life because many people feel it's a world of sound bites, it's a world of images and so much stimulation. And I think deep down they yearn for a simplicity, but as a starting point, they're just saying, can you give me something that's practical that will really get my attention and really take me in. I think it's the same way when we go to a movie. We really like a masterpiece of a movie that will take us in from that first scene and just take us so fully in and just deliver us to the end of the movie in a seamless way where we're not drifting off. And that's what I really wanted for this book as well. Beautiful, beautiful. And you know, speaking about the book, I just, it's okay to dive into a couple of things that kind of either had an effect on me or sparked something and made things that you've shared and said. And the first thing I want to talk about that you had mentioned in your book that it was a nice reminder that the miracle is never, the miracle is never out in the future. And so often, certainly in my experience when I'm in the grip of what I perceive or in the grip of a misperception, oftentimes I think the solution is in the future, if it's strange, because on some level I want immediate relief, but the belief is that the relief is coming out in the future. So I want immediate relief, but I'm sold somehow on this idea that my relief is going to come in the future with some kind of change in circumstance or form change. But what you're bringing home is no, that's not where it is. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a key point because a lot of times people have an idea of what their healing will look like. And even that it's still calling forth some images and memories from the past and maybe just associations that they've had and then they're all keyed up for their life to look a certain way. Or they're hoping it will change and look a different way. And I think most everybody can relate to what you're talking about. I mean, where they think, okay, I want to heal mine, but then the world should look different and the people in the world should look different and the politics should look different and the cultural scene should look different. And there's a lot of things that should look different and and really we have to really be willing to let go of that if we're going to have that real authentic, expansive experience that's just unlike anything that we've ever perceived in the past at all. And that's good to come back to that. Yeah, in certainly in my experience, even with Hawaii, we'll use that as an example. It's interesting to see in my experience that even what coming out here or before I came out here, having ideas of what that needed to look like. And then coming here and recognizing and using it as an opportunity to healing that again that I did not know. I don't know my best interest. I did not know really. You know, that's what this was my idea. I still hold on to ideas of what the Hawaii experience was to be. And certainly life is showing me that it usually isn't what it's supposed to be. I really can't think of a time when I was ever right about how it's supposed to be. But funny enough and interesting enough. And you talk about this in the book about and certainly this is a course teaching about how we just don't know what our best interest is in any situation. And you highlight that in no situation. Yeah. Yeah, that's that truly is an invitation to to really release and to let go because we've been trained and programmed to to control and to manage and to fix. We've been trained to kind of chisel our life experience to come out in a particular outcome and if you talk to most people they would say well yeah. Of course I maybe they have an idea of the relationship that they want and and the length of that whether they're or whether they're to be single or or partnered up in some way. The way that their job experiences their career the way they want their career to go. It's a very forward looking vision of life that's very normalized. And then it's it's all really just trying to take the past and shape it into some way to find fulfillment and really of course in miracles like authentic spirituality is more of letting go of thinking you know what you're thinking means thinking you know what your own best interests are in any situation and and then it seems that that's absolutely necessary. I'm thinking of those workbook lessons pretty early on about in no situation do I perceive my own best interest and then then followed up with everything is in my own best interest. What do you mean what do you mean everything is in my own business is you think I'm dumb or gullible but but it's it's really more of a very high high high state of mind in which all things work together for good and let all things be exactly what they are and all that that sense of non attachment and complete acceptance and that without judgment all things are equally acceptable it's only the filter of judgment and the filter of interpretation that brings about discontent suffering struggles and so we're like many sages and mystics and saints have said throughout the ages we're here to clean the mirror of the mind and it's great to come back to that you know that's that's the that's that that core teaching that runs throughout all different types of these beautiful yeah yeah yeah I'm I'm kind of right now just kind of examining my own experience in the moment and it's interesting because certainly you know there are things that seem it's funny how like the thought system can take something like inspiration and turn it into ideas of what that needs to be so let me give you a practical example a real example so you know you know with woodworking has has appeared in my life and I've you know since I've been why I would have never imagined that I'd be working with what doing with stuff and so I spent a lot of time working with what and it has evolved and I just recently opened up a new shop but it's funny because it's taken something that I enjoy or it seems like something that I've enjoyed can easily be twisted into now something that needs to become something with future thoughts of the shop of something that produces money something that you know the concern about the actual end product and whether or not it's good enough. And here in my own mind I also think wow you work you know you work with the course you teach you know you with other teachers you you exposed all these principles yet I'm reminded about how I could be sometimes so blindsided still and how deep the ego thought system is that it's just it come boom just come it just sneaks in. And in my current situation it's bringing being brought to my awareness because of the sometimes with a feeling of like this pressure of you know got to replenish the product that it all just that's her and then how does this happen it's just blindsided so can you share a little bit about about about that how do we best prepare for the blindsidedness of the ego that just all of a sudden before you know it you're caught up. Yeah, I think it's you know when I would read the Bible. I really liked how Jesus was sometimes you know somebody would come up to him and say. Whether it was his mother Mary or someone would kind of even when he was 12 years old you know he was quite famously quote is saying is a 12 year old. Don't you know I have to be about my father's business, you know I mean it just not something that 12 year olds say to your mother, you know it's just Oh, you know, but but that kind of stuck with me somehow that I thought wow this awakening thing it's it's got to be transcend the businesses of the world and of course that's a common thing for the 7 billion on the planet. Whether you call it survival whether you call it making a living or what do you do for a living or what is your business or whatever and then and then when we really look at it you know in course terms it's like there's there's definitely some reciprocity. That's involved in that and I think that's that's where the slam comes in you know. We're even when you work with the course and you give yourself over and you, you know you you surrender to guidance and you surrender to being lifted up and and inspired. There's a there's a part of the mind that's just not quite buying the spirit you know it's it's you can call it it says it's practical but practicality means reciprocal practicality means supply and demand practicality means you know replenish your inventory. Practicality means maintain your email base and your, your client base, keep the customer happy, keep the customer coming back and all these things really that cuts across a huge swath of of the human experience. So I think for me, I kind of see how, at some point when I just had this conversion experience and kind of gave it said alright Jesus take my life take my possessions take my skills abilities take my mind, take my future ambitions, take my goals take everything. Then it opened up into a quite a journey. Some would say it was more like writing a wild Bronco. It certainly seemed that way sometimes, like I was out on the Bronco wild Bronco. But it was, please, lead the way and take me into an experience that transcends all of time and space that transcends worries and concerns expectations. I mean I had a five year degree. I was in the University of Cincinnati full time for 10 years and what half of that I would say was a five year degree which had a co op program a practicum part of it working in businesses and a study program and involve design and art and architecture and planning and in many ways, and then to come into the spiritual journey which was really not about planning at all. It was more about being guided than than having set plans and designing mechanisms and means to achieve future goals. It was more of letting go letting go and just letting those those intuitions and those little nudges and those little prompts and feelings take a prominent role in in showing me how to live in the moment. Very different from having a five year planning degree to writing a book called This Moment is Your Miracle. It's like what the heck happened to that to that training and planning. That's this is like the antithesis of everything that was ever learned. So I think that's a common thing that anyone would ask like, you know, I would just love to live a carefree life and oh yeah I heard St. Francis you know he had a bit of a fever after the war. That's understandable. But but then just drifting out and walking through the field and playing with the birds and smelling the flowers and being amongst the butterflies. You know, many people would say yeah that sounds very idyllic but it doesn't sound very practical. And certainly his Italian father who is a businessman did not think that was practical at all and his told his St. Francis his French mother you know like what have you done to our boy you know he's out in now he's living out in the fields. And so this is what we all go through where there's a part of us that wants to make our parents proud and there's a part of us that wants to succeed and be like successful at the world and maybe balance off that success with a very flowing guided life. We would love to bring worldly success and guidance together. And there actually have been books on how to bring the course of miracles into the business and make a better business and you know we see it happen all the time. But the course really and what I found with spirit and Jesus is teaching is that you can't bring the truth into the illusion you have to bring your thoughts your feelings your perceptions, your ambitions your goals, all of it in a package you have to bring that to the light of truth, so that it disappears. And so early on once I got that that was the direction. I think the ego in me was not happy about that at all it was like shaking it. If it had a head it would be in there shaking like no no no no no. We're not going there, but I had already given it over to a yes. I'm going there. I actually want to go there to the Kingdom of Heaven to the present moment. And I'm willing to let the whole thing fall apart. My world, my whatever my grip of control I'm willing to relinquish that. And I'll take my chances I'm going to trust the voice of spirit in me I'll take my chances with that voice. What a ride though. Awesome. Awesome. I, you know, David, I have a thought I have a confession. And I'm sure when I share it with you, you can share your thoughts on what's happening. So, the confession is I've been watching the news. And I and I watched the news and there's an awareness or there's something that's aware of this and why are you watching that you know that this is doesn't feel good. You know there are moments you are I watched the news. Oh, you know, just like a little. And I know that it's been talked about before in terms of politics and so forth. But I think that it's something that still perhaps we can learn from. So, can you share a little bit about what's happening. What is the attraction. That's coming up with the with something like following the news, specifically, you know, the politics of what's happened what seems to be happening in the world. Yeah, well, I, there can be a curiosity with it. And I think there's a lot behind it, I think, because whether we're talking about children or adults, there's, there's always a certain amount of curiosity. And it doesn't matter whether people are driving on the highway and they see flashing lights and cars slowing down. You know, they, they will keep driving but they will keep their hands on the steering wheel but they are are looking peeking like what, what's going on they're curious. I think part of the mesmerism of this world is there's a curiosity with events to curiosity with appearances that that is it just wants to know why why do people watch the news why do people read the newspapers or get get their news digitally. And really the question then comes down to what's the purpose, because there can be a part of the curiosity that still is part of wanting to figure something out. And maybe there's even a safety security survival aspect to that as well. And, and yet, I think there's a part of us that knows that the more intuitive we get, and the more we surrender into this peaceful, still quiet, intuitive aspect of us that small still voice within that that even that curiosity is going to fade away at some point into some kind of acceptance or some kind of contentment, you could even say just plain contentment just being happy, happy. Or as Byron Katie says loving what is, you know, we kind of have a feeling when we hear that from her we go, ooh, that's, that sounds good. So, for me it's not so much whether to watch or not to watch because I know over the years when I would be traveling. Sometimes I would wouldn't see the news for long stretches of days and weeks and then I would go to a mall and I would go through a TV shop and the very things I would hear on the on the TVs as I walk through for five minutes through a television sales shop would come out in the talk. You know, I would say oh wow that's interesting that the spirit like scooped up just what what was needed for the talk, and I would be like wow look at this is coming right out and people loved it they said it's oh my gosh. He's a mystic but he actually knows that there's a war going on. So oblivious to we can he can actually talk to us about the war that's happening or the protests that are going on or the shortage of water or electricity or the weather patterns that are going on. I find that what is it for it's it's it's the motive underneath there's nothing wrong or right about anything really informed it's it's what is it for what are we using it for. And then I think with the serenity prayer you know, I love the serenity prayer and I feel like a course of miracles is just an expanded version of the serenity prayer and the 12 steps. What you can change what you cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference is the spirit it's like to me it's all right there in the serenity prayer. And the course just takes you right in and says okay let's let's really go at this to have the experience that the serenity prayer is pointing towards. The thing about it is is that that what we do have control over is the direction of our thinking we we can choose our state of mind, but, but we learn in the in the rules for decision section he says you have no control over the world you made. He's talking about the ego, you have no control over the world you made and that is so counter to human experience. So for most human beings I would say almost all human beings would say that's ridiculous of course you can decide when to raise your hand and lower it of course you can decide whether to smoke or quit smoking to drink or quit drinking you know what you're going to do during the day you know of course you have choices. And the circle is a very deep teaching this really teaching us that it's everything we're perceiving as part of a pre arranged script that actually is already over, and that you don't really have any choice whatsoever. That that runs completely counter to human experience you know that that's why people say oh yeah you lost me on that one that's like what about free will what about choice and and so actually what I see the real question is is do I want to be happy. Do I want peace of mind. Even in the workbook of the course Jesus says to say that you want the peace of God is nothing, but to mean that you want the peace of God is everything. So again it's coming down to a sense of desire of wanting of valuing and of purpose. And that is is so glorious as soon as we get a glimpse of that. We are on a journey towards simplicity, we're on a journey towards heights of happiness, expansive joy, true freedom and and true awareness of love and God and truth. And it's so so powerful. I wrote a book many years ago when I was working with a group of students, a small little intimate group up in Michigan Traverse City Michigan I a little book called purposes the only choice. It's a tiny little booklet that our friend Jason that you and I know took to the like the Swiss Alps to to read like a couple sentences from it, and then just go off and meditate on like a sentence from it or to because it's so direct. And I find that that's the way my whole life has gone I've gone so deeply towards the experience in sorts towards the purpose that that was the first booklet, and for most of the planet it's incomprehensible. So that's not generally people would say no you don't you shouldn't be writing books that are completely incomprehensible. And it came out as the tiniest. It's a little booklet like this big and, and called purposes the only choice but people said it. You lost me on the first page. And the same thing about Christian emergency a lot of times Christian emergency, you know, every five minutes he would speak he would lose like another 1000 people in the audience and then he'd speak another five minutes and they're just staring off into space. One of my fondest memories watching Christian emergency videos of people like looking off into space as he, he was teaching, because he was going so deep so fast that nobody could hang with him. Now I find here it is. That was my first booklet. Lilo brought it. It's a tiny little booklet. See how it fits in my hand. It's nice it's so small it's meant not to scare people. That's why I made it so small. But now I've got a bigger book. And that for the very reasons you mentioned that it's, it feels like I'm holding your hand it feels like I'm taking you through exercises. I'm offering parables there are no parables. This book is so straight. But this one has the parables the exercises. And so, I don't know if for me it's like everything in my life is backwards. I. Don't write books, become famous, travel the world and, and write on the, the fame or the book or the whatever. It's, it's more grassroots like I'm, I'm so grassroots I'm so into the experience that I dive right in to go for the experience. And then I'm on some kind of a magic carpet ride, like Aladdin and I don't know where the carpet's going. I don't know who's moving the carpet. And I don't know where it's I'm not don't know how this is going to come out but I do know that it's all backwards. So, it's kind of an interesting experience I think it's an experience based on trust and faith and divine providence and then he first the kingdom of heaven and all else will be added unto you that's kind of been the parable of David has gone in that direction. So when, when I watch the news. I am just in a state of mind where I'm aware let's use the political news as an example because there's a lot of people that are talking about that now it's just they don't feel happy they don't feel comfortable. They don't like what they're seeing. And then they turn on the news the next day thinking, it's got to turn at some point or it's got to make a turn but they're not seeing a turn. It's, it's, it's like going going going with the election of the President of the United States you know, people are just like have their eyes are just like, Oh my God what is happening. So, this illusioning, and then I am so open minded I see, like on YouTube, a channel, a traveler from the futures is coming back and saying this is going to go on for years to come way past 2020 that that you know and and then I tell people I go, Oh, God, I'm having trouble taking the next day and don't even say that that this this is going on first for a long time. But for me, I actually don't I'm not looking for the change in the world. I took that line to heart in the course you know seek not to change the world seek rather to change your mind about the world. I, I loved that that we had William Whitson you know who was was so involved in the United States government and ambassador to China worked for the UN, and he spent decades literally in civil service. When I first saw that first story of a course in miracles movie years ago. And here's this guy William with this distinguished man who'd spent decades of service in the United States government and the United Nations saying, quoting, seek to change the world seek rather to change your mind about the world. It was that line but it was that person speaking that line. And then he married Judas scotch becomes Judas scotch Whitson. He's in charge of the translations into 20 some, you know, languages of the world and he has the most, you meet him in person and he was the most distinguished, sweet, kind, gentle person you'll ever meet. And you see that he actually gave up on his whole life's journey he gave up on the politics he gave up on on the government he gave up on on trying to change the world which he gave such passion towards that and yet somehow he took that line to heart that moved me when I first encountered that that that got me looking even closer like can I really change the world can I make a difference in the world. Is it worth putting my mind effort into making the world a better place. And I, I got through William Whitson's great wisdom and through the course and Jesus's wisdom is no. Don't put your mind's energy in that direction. It will not bring about a real change when you are tinkering with the effects, and you haven't changed the purpose in your mind that you will have absolutely no impact whatsoever at at tinkering with unreal effects that come from an unreal cause which is the ego in your mind. So once I got into that then you could say my purpose for watching TV and movies and reading the news or watching the news change it just took a 360 to before it was all about making the world a better place and I was quite an activist myself at one point and then it flipped around to I need to forgive the world, and that is my only function is is to forgive the world. So that's that's what it was for me and it's still the same for me I was I will sit there and listen to people talk about different politicians and different strategies and everything like this but but actually I feel the sweetness and the love that's underneath those thoughts. But I don't. I just don't believe in him anymore. I really don't believe in the world. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you for lifting the guilt off my shoulders about watching the news. It's beautiful to hear how how we can use whatever it is for the purpose, a higher purpose to whether it be watching the news or otherwise. Thank you for the reminder and thank you also for the reminder what I'm hearing and I'd love to hear and so would be reminded this idea of really not having a choice, because it feels like the burden of guilt is lifted. When I accept that I don't have a choice it's like guilt shows up only as a result of thinking that I, I did something, whether it be a wrong decision or something that I did but I open up to the possibility that and this was back to what you said in the beginning of the interview that all things work for good there are no exceptions. Then I can accept the innocence in anything regardless of whatever it is that I perceive. Yeah. Yeah, I think another line that helped me is that there was a part in the course. Of course Jesus talks a lot about the holy instant and and desiring it and and and entering into it, but there's a one point where he said that just as the separation occurred over millions of years, the correction or the reparation will occur over the same amount of time or perhaps even longer. And when when you read that it's, it just suddenly it's a different context. And then with such a context like that and what we call world events. And I kind of see that that the that the salvation script was written long ago, and that things are indeed working together for good and that I'm starting to feel like almost like the presence of Jesus, the hand of Jesus, the presence of Jesus behind everything, everything I see on the news, everyone I meet everywhere I go. I'm starting to be like a child with big wondrous eyes like Wow, there's a presence behind all of this. That's leading all of us home in which there's no mistakes in which it's like that part in the workbook what could you not accept if you but knew that everything that that happens is is planned for you by one who knows your good, you know, I'm paraphrasing a little. I mean, there's some kind of presence behind that. And I when I'm reminded of that I'm like, Oh, I'm more like in that satchmo what a wonderful world, what a wondrous plan, where where everything is is in divine order. Whether it's interpreted as perfect or not that's that's a question of purification but but but that there's really there that it's really all working together for good. And I have to say that that's really what's come to me now I feel like I'm feeling that now I'm feeling that. So that's why when people meet me and they tell me what what they feel and what should be different everything. I'm just looking into their eyes and thinking how adorable they are and how wondrous the plan is and that that it's all going right in in the deepest truest sense. All things are working together for good. I'm starting to feel that really is a very palpable experience. And then I hear people say, Well, David, you're just so happy. You know, you're just happy. It's fun to be around you because you're really happy. You have a joy, you have a glee like a childhood glee. There's an innocence. And I'm like, Well, that's that sounds good, because that's how I feel. But I think there's a trust underneath that I'm really trusting in the divine plan in a very deep way and and and really enjoying it to really enjoying savoring it. I'm definitely not looking for future solutions. And some people may say that I've lost all my marbles and David's not all there and that's okay too. I mean, I actually, I can relate to that too. I'm not all here. It's true. It's beautiful. You remember one of the first things you said, when I had interviewed you a few years ago, and that stuck with me still does and I may have repeated it as well is it seems like that there are certain people that live in the divine providence, but in actuality, we all live in divine providence. The question is, are we aware of it. And so that sticks to me because if I'm not aware of it, it refers to how I'm fighting the moment or fighting what's happening. There's certainly a block to the awareness of divine providence. And you mentioned it requires a purification of the mind. Can you share a little bit about purification of the mind? Yeah, I think the purification of the mind is really just allowing all fear to vanish. And to me, it did come to me like, I did have a certain point in the parable of David where I just started to take note like, what is it that I actually believe? And what are the thoughts that are moving through my consciousness? And I really just watched them for a while and I went, wow, there's a lot of fear. I am really bought into this fear of consequences. And I'm doing things that I don't like to do. And I'm working the jobs that I'm not interested in. And I'm feeling like I'm stuck and I'm a victim. I'm at the mercy of the world. And I really had to take note of that, that I was operating out of a fear-based thought system. So when I say purification, I mean a real clearing of that fear, a real sincere and comprehensive release of all fear. And I know that the world teaches, no, you've got to have some joy and happiness and some fear and guilt. But I don't believe that. I feel like that's not our destiny. You know, it's not what the Bible said, Jesus said, be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. He was actually calling us towards a perfection, not perfection in form, perfectionism of behavior and trying to be perfect in form. But I mean, as a state of mind, as a being to open up to that purification and that perfection of I am as God created me. So, yeah, I really had to take note of that. And then I started to just take it piece by piece. Like, what is it that you think you're doing all this for? What do you believe in? I wanted intimacy. I wanted a sense of freedom, happiness, peace of mind. I mean, I really laid it out. And I was talking to Jesus very honestly saying, here's what I want. I don't know if it's right or wrong, but here's what I want. And he said, yes, yes, you are entitled to all those things. But he said, actually, frankly, you've been going about it all the wrong way. You know, your intimacy is so connected to bodies and bodies together. And his teachings were, you know, minds are joined, bodies do not. Wow. That's a different view of intimacy. And I was pretty much into freedom too. I know I put a lot of energy on wanting to be free. I'm talking about the 60s. I was a child of the 60s. I was kind of walking around with the glazed eyes and I was quite young in the 60s. But I, the flower children, you know, I wanted freedom as much as the flower children in the 60s wanted freedom. And then when I got into the 70s and 80s, Jesus said, very good freedom. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. You believe it's freedom of the body. And you have been working so hard to get a free body. And he just told me, he said, that's impossible. You are asking the impossible. You want freedom of the body or freedom of the mind for both you cannot have. And if you're really interested in freedom, I will train you how to, like the matrix, how to free your mind as Morpheus, you know, tells Neo. And so Jesus took me right in that direction. Like, I'll, I'll give you freedom. I'll show you freedom. So I think that's good news for all of us that, that we do want these things, freedom, happiness, joy, intimacy. We're perfectly fine in asking for those things. And actually that's our birthright, those things. But we've just, egoically, we've been going in the wrong direction and we've been seeking for them where they can never be found, which is very frustrating. I think probably there's nothing more frustrating than reincarnation. And then people will say, oh, I had this great deja vu experience. It was amazing. I swore I was here before and then Ken Wapnick came along and said, all experiences on earth and our deja vu experiences. We're just rehashing the past with every single thing we perceive, everyone we meet, everything we pursue. It's one giant looping deja vu experience. Thank you, Ken. That's saving me thousands of years, you know, to start to let that in to my awareness. And then we, we decided we're going to be miracle workers who grew up thinking they'd be a miracle worker. I didn't. I mean, I, if I'd have brought that up at the dinner table, you know, they would say, you know, you bring that question up in Sunday school with your Sunday school teacher, you don't talk about that kind of stuff at home. But yeah, you know, here we are, you know, given our lives over to being miracle workers. Well, yeah. Yeah, certainly, when you touched on the, the, the parable gave it in the fear of consequences. Well, it's certainly resonated in the sense that I can totally see how that can show up in my experience that I showed up at my experience where there's a fear of, if I do this, then there's in the mind there's an assumption of what that outcome is going to be. Or, you know, even as I contemplate it now, the, the assumption about consequences is that the cause is in the world or the cause is something that I do. Like, you know, I want to avoid this consequence. Oh, I don't want to cause it by doing something. And so it's like this trap that I'm in, because I believe there's cause in the world or that I can cause it or that I'm responsible for, you know, some outcome in the future. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. And then the miracle is a contrast of that, which is kind of like, if you give your life over to miracles, if you give your life over to healing to awakening, then everything that shows up is just going to knock your socks off. It's going to blow your mind. It's, when people ask me, what is these last few decades been? It's been mind blowing. Even I care, there you are in Hawaii, on the Big Island, Hawaii. And I, I've lived there too, you know, I lived on the Big Island. But even after I had left the Big Island, there was you where they come back and visit and, and invited Nikita and I to come on Easter to do an Easter retreat at the farm. And us showing up there and oh my God, 190 some acres of preciousness, overlooking the ocean, looking into the eyes of the animals and eye gazing. It was so wondrous. And then you guys had just been there for a while, but then you said, oh, we got a, we got a red car. What was that red sports car? Was it some kind of an Italian? A red Miata. A red Miata parked out there. You guys can go take off in that. So off Nikita and I go driving around the Big Island in a red Miata convertible sports car. I'm, I'm just like, look, and I, you gotta be kidding me. But this is the way it's gone. It's almost like the spirit floods you with so many miracles. But, but I wasn't trying to visualize them. I wasn't trying to, you know, use a vision board or draw them in as if it was something out of the past that I was trying to fantasize. I'm just showing up to be healed. And then the spirit brings in the most wonderful symbols, where you just are laughing all the way. And you're thinking, okay, what did I do to deserve this happiness? Right before I came on this show, I was, I was having lunch with Suava and I were having lunch with a friend from Germany and another friend I knew from Michigan. And we were talking about Germany and I did this German retreat. And at the end, I had, I had, I think I needed to ride the hamburger. I'm just asking the participants, is anybody are anybody going in that direction, because I need to get to the airport. And this guy comes up to me with the biggest smile and he says, I'll give you a ride. I've rented a big brand new Mercedes. And if you'll drive the Mercedes on the Autobahn, then I'll let you, I'll give you that ride to the airport. So there I am in some mess of Mercedes on the Autobahn with no speed limit. And I've got my pedal going down and if I had any hair, it would have been flown back. And I'm going along cruising and everything. And, and a car passes us on the right side. And so my friend, my new friend, he looks at me and he goes, kick down, David, kick down. And like, go faster. Like, okay. You know, but just so much fun with sports cars with this any kind of whim that you have in your mind when you're doing it for forgiveness when you're doing it for the glory of the whole, then it just comes flooding in at you. But there's no personal sense of trying to make it happen. It would be like being in a movie where the spirit knows all your whims and is going to just flood you with all these whims, just because you said yes to serving spirit. So that's what I've been trying to do for these last three decades is tell people, hey, listen, this is no sacrifice at all. I'm telling you, when you give it over to spirit. Don't think that you're going to be woe is me and destitute and, and alone. It's actually not that at all. It's, it's, it's a flood of experiences to say thank you as if all the angels, all the universe is thanking you for, for this holy purpose. It's been fun. I have to, I'm the first one to say I'm not. This has not been a struggle. A ride of joy. Thank you. And I feel that joy and down. Yeah, that's beautiful. That's awesome. You know, we're winding down with our time, time on this video, but my before I let us go. Yesterday, I was crossing the street, Billy Street in Kona. And there was no thought I was just crossing the street and perhaps it's because I'm from New York, we come to just throw ourselves in the street. And a few cars will go around the other side. I don't know, but I did, I did that. And there was a woman who I then learned was hesitant about going into the street. But it wasn't until I got to the other side where she's like, you know, thank you, thank you so much. You know, for going ahead of me. Because, you know, she then felt the ability to cross. And so I want to say thank you for going ahead of us. And certainly helping us through through this unwinding. I appreciate it and I thank you for joining with me and always enjoy joining with you and I know we'll always be joined and I will also join with you at some point in form as well. So that's all welcome. Thank you so much for the hour. We appreciate it. Thank you, Craig. Thank you, Craig. I love you and it's always just a joy to connect with you, no matter how or where or whatever this is for in this world, you know, I feel your heart and yeah, I love you so much and I'm with you. I'm so grateful. Beautiful.