 Mark Shklav, the host of think tech Hawaii's law across the sea program. Today, we're going across the sea to Paris, France to talk with Frederick Rupert. Freddie, as he is known to his friends, and he is my dear friend, is a French avocat à la cour. He is also a member of the California State Bar, a dual French US citizen, and an honorary member of the Hawaii State Bar Association's International Law Section. I've asked Freddie to share his unique personal and professional insights into life and current events in France, Europe, and the world. Aloha, Freddie. How are you? Good. Bonjour, Mark. Bonjour. Yes, aloha. Aloha. I want to start off, thank you for being my guest today. It's such a pleasure to see you. And I know you're in Paris right now. And I want to ask you a few questions. First, I want to talk a little bit about your personal and professional background. And I find it interesting, you are both a French avocat and a California attorney, as well as a dual citizen of France and the United States. And we can put up both flags. And my questions are, I mean, how did that happen? And does it create a conflict, at any way, in your life, or your profession? And how do you balance your views of the world with being a dual citizen of France and the United States and a lawyer in both countries? How does that work? Please tell us a little bit about your work. Yeah. Well, I was born and raised in France. And at some point, I moved to the US because I had at the time married the person who became my wife and who was born in San Francisco. So we decided to move to San Francisco because as a lot of originally non-US citizens, the US have always had a special attraction to me, in particular, and to a lot of people, of course. So one of my dreams was going to the US, which I did, thanks to my wife. But I was already a lawyer, not a licensed attorney, but a lawyer at the time. Because in France, you can be a lawyer without being an attorney. And so I moved to the US, and I realized that in the US, you can really practice law only if you're a licensed attorney. So I looked into all that, and I went through the motion. I passed the so-called baby bar in California, and then the big bar. And it became an attorney quite some years ago now. So I was first an attorney in California before becoming a licensed attorney in France. I practiced for many years in San Francisco. And at some point, we decided to move to France. And years after that, because I didn't do it right away, but years after moving back to France, I became a French attorney. So my California license predates my French license by more than 12 years, actually. So I learned how to lawyer, how to practice law in the States. And so that gives a special perspective on how to do things, because the practice of law is very different in the US and in France. And as a matter of fact, when I came to France, I knew that no matter what, I never wanted to do a litigation again. Because what I did in the US probably I left a bad taste in my mouth. Well, so I decided not to do that anymore. And on top of that, I was always attracted more to the business side of the law. So anything that touches to or that leans toward finance, corporate, M&A, investment, private equity, financing, that's always been my preferred taste in terms of the law practice. So I mean, obviously, naturally, I was more attracted to the transactional work of the law and then the litigation side of it. So that's how I became a dual attorney, France and the US. But I mean, really originally a US attorney. That's interesting. And so you were attracted to United States, then you were attracted back to France. And going back to my question, and I guess the US citizenship came with being an attorney in the United States, is there a, I mean, do you ever have a conflict with our political or social events? And how do you deal with that? Yeah, absolutely. You know the fact that you live in two different countries of through your life. You live through different countries. It gives you a lot of perspective on two things. It helps you realize that things are not necessarily as bad as they look or as good as they look. And being far away from a place gives you a lot of relativness in terms of how you appreciate things or how you apprehend things, how you look at it, and how you digest the different events and how you spit it out, basically. But it is true that sometimes I feel conflicted because I can see what's wrong in the States. I can see what's wrong in France. People often ask me, because especially when you're in the States, people ask me, I mean, how come you wanted to come to the States? Are you crazy? And when you talk to French people, it's exactly the same question, but the other way, right? It's like, what? You can live in the US? What are you doing in France? And the response is that there's no black and white response. I mean, there's good and bad in both places. And you cannot have a perfect place. I mean, there are some real good things in France, some real bad things in France. It's the same thing with the US. The US is definitely not the best country in the world. There are a lot of things that would need to be rethought and really redesigned. But at the same time, there's some wonderful things in the US that there's no way you can have in France. So actually being able to straddle is a nice way of enjoying both good sides and try to avoid the pitfalls of both sides. So I like that. What you're saying is, going, being in the different countries gives you a perspective that is very good because you can see deeply into both countries, both sides. And it allows you to maybe not be so one-sided in a way. More. It's not only being one-sided, but it's also having open eyes and an open mind how things can be done differently. You don't have to get stuck in your way or you don't have to get stuck in some ways because it's always been done that way. It's actually a narrow-minded way of view or a way of seeing things. And I actually think that is a good thing for your clients because you can see different perspectives and you're able to advise your clients on the good and the bad in both countries. So I can see that and not just one-sided. Yeah, that's really good. I like that. That's true. And well, not only you can do that, but you can also, because you can see through the client's eyes why he reacted a certain way, you can somehow explain why the other side is saying something, why they're thinking a certain way and what you should do of it. Being a cultural interface is more important than being just a legal interface. Yeah, and that gives you the insight into what people are thinking by being a citizen. So that's not necessarily a bad thing. It sounds like a good thing. Now, I wanna move on a little bit. One thing, and I wanna put up a photo of you. You're an honorary member of the Hawaii State Bar Association's International Law Section. We have a photo of you in Dubai with the other members of the Hawaii delegation that were there for the Inter-Pacific Bar Association's annual meeting short while ago. You're the only member wearing an aloha shirt and you're wearing an aloha shirt today. And I know, because I've seen you many times, you love aloha shirts. How did, and give me a brief reason. Why are you into aloha shirts? Well, I've always liked Hawaiian anything, you know? I mean, part of the American dream is Hawaii, right? And the Hawaiian, or Hawaii, and the Hawaiian culture has a very special taste in that, because actually it's exotic. It's, well, on top of that, I love the sun, I love the sea, I love the heat. So it's part of that beach, sun, and fun atmosphere, right? So the aloha shirts are a major part of it. So I've always liked aloha shirts for the longest time. I actually have a big collection. I've had to give some away because actually they were too big for me. I kind of like shrunk over the years, right? So I had to give some away, but I still have about 50 to 60 different colors of, you know, and different styles, some for the night, some for the day, clear light, different green, blue, red, whatever you can name it. So I really like the relaxed feel that comes with it. Okay. Yeah, you're a natural member of our Hawaii delegation. I'm very, very proud. Actually being a member of the international section of the Hawaiian bar is one of my proudest moments. But good. Now I want to delve a little into Europe and France, and let's put up a map of France for a minute. And France is right in the middle of Europe and all sorts of things are going on. I want to first ask, you know, President Emmanuel Macron has been the subject of some political unrest in France. He proposed pension reforms and there were thousands of French citizens taking to the streets and protests. And I mean, I was really surprised. What's that all about? And what's the status of that? I didn't quite understand why there was so much opposition to raising the country's retirement age from 62 to 64. But I mean, I don't have that same perspective as you, right? I'm not a French person, but tell me, what's that about? This is something where my American perspective helps, because actually it is true that with the population aging and aging well, because actually now you can live old and in very good health for a long time. So it's not insane to think that we can work longer in good health. It is true that some people have had hard lives and should not work longer or later in life. But there are some special disposition in the law, in the current law, as well as the new law that provide for that. So when you look at it, the way it was set up, the retirement age used to be older than 60. It was, if I remember correctly, it started at 65. But at the time, the life expectancy was lower. It was late 60s, early 70s. So when you had to work until 65, but you could expect to live until 70, that only left a few years in retirement. Now people my age, for example, the life expectancy right now is well in the 80s and being in good health, I hope I'll go at least until 90. So even if I retire at 65, that still leaves me like 25 years of retirement. And the current retirement age is actually 60. So that give me 30 years of retirement. So this is one thing that led to the reform. The other thing is that when the system was designed and put in place, there were way more active people than retired people than now. Somehow the ratio has changed and there are less active people for retired people than they used to be before. So the financial burden is heavier on the working people because we don't, in France, you have two system of retirement. You have a system which is a reallocation system when the working people pay for the people who are retired, they finance their pension and you have the capitalization system, which is pretty much what it is in the U.S. When you work, you put money aside out of your paycheck to finance your future retirement pension. So those two system, in France, it's a reallocation system, a repartition. So, of course, it stands, it is down if you have a lot of people working and few people not working. But if the ratio changes and you have less and less people working and more and more people retired, there's not enough of working people pool to finance the pension for the people who are retired. So because of all that, the system had to be reformed. So the people that were objecting were objecting because they would have to pay more over a period of time and couldn't retire and get the benefits of the state. Is that it? Well, the people who are objecting actually, I think they don't necessarily wanna look at the big picture, but what they wanna look at is their vested rights because actually right now they would be able to retire 60 and they don't like the perspective of having to work for more years, which is at an individual level, is understandable. But when you look at the big picture at the society level, somehow we have to take into account that we live longer in better health. And no matter how you look at it, the system had to be reformed because if not, it would not function properly from the financial standpoint. Now the problem that Macro has had, I'm sorry. Is it going to be reformed? I mean, it's going ahead then? Actually, the law was voted by the parliament and the Senate and the decrees are actually being published right now. So the reform is in, it's bound to be to come into law. It's actually into law right now since it's been voted by both chambers, but it is gonna be implemented. It's gonna be the law. Okay. And people are protesting because of what they see as an attack on their vested right to retirement at age 60. I see. And so has this affected Macro's popularity or? Yes, it has, but Macro has tried to, I mean, ever since his first term and into the second term as well, he's tried to reform things which are traditionally very hard to reform. The retirement system being one of them. So the problem is not so much that he's trying to do something, but his style is somehow remote from the way that people feel about him or he's somehow a little too rigid or a little too pulled to really relate to the population. So his problem in terms of the opposition that he encountered with regard to the pension reform is the, it's more the psychology of the message. He didn't, it's more the communication issue that he had to deal with. So it's his style. Exactly, his style really irked a lot of people. And on top of that, because of the political opposition that he's also met, he had to use some special articles or special section of the constitution that made a what's called a blocked vote at the Parliament, meaning that there's no real vote. It's a special, it's a special mechanism that was put in place by De Gaulle back in 58 at the time the constitution was drafted because De Gaulle made it to his taste so that he was able to actually govern France because he knew France is the country of a position anyway. So he gave himself the tools to be able to govern the country. Okay, I wanna move on to another issue that President Macron has been involved in is the Ukraine matter. And are the French citizens supportive of that? I mean, Macron seems to be on the side of Ukraine and against the Russian invasion and is very strong in my impression. And is that the citizen of France? Are they all behind that? And I was also wondering if the history of France in World War II plays a role in this. It just seems possible to me. And I wonder if that comes up in discussions. Well, my feeling is that France is definitely behind Ukraine. Russian is seen as the aggressor and Britain is seen as a big bully anyway. Regardless, I mean, no matter under what angle you look at it, he's the one who started it. He's the one who basically invaded Ukraine, right? It's, there's no other way to look at it. I don't see any other way to look at it. I mean, I know some people are trying to argue against that, but I don't see how it could work. Now, with regard to France and World War II, it probably has some impact, but what's very interesting to look at is the way the countries of the old Eastern bloc, the Eastern bloc reacted. If you, I mean, you know, if you look at Poland, if you look at the Baltic Republic, I mean, these people knew what Russia is because they had to support Russian rules for decades. So, I mean, they're so adamant about fighting Russia and helping Ukraine. I mean, not directly fighting Russia, but definitely helping Ukraine as much as they can because they know what it means. I mean, in terms of relative assistance, the biggest contributor to the Ukraine help is one of the Baltic Republic, one of the tiniest countries. But in percentage of their wealth, they're providing a huge amount. I mean, these people quite suffered under Russia's rule. That's interesting because that kind of goes back to what you were talking about, perspective. They have a different perspective that you also have, but they see it through different eyes of the world and they had personal experience of Russia and the way that things oppress them. Is that, am I hearing that right? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, Poland has provided fighter jets, you know, old MiGs that they had in the inventory, old tanks, whatever they could. So the message that I'm getting from all of our talk is perspective is very important. Getting, you know, where you stand, where you, what you see in your experience in life is important on how you see the world and how you deal with it, you know. Now, I like a lot of things about France. So one thing, the French national motto, and let's put that up on the screen. I'd like you just to tell me what the French national motto is and what it means and how did it come about? Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Thank you, quality fraternity. Yeah, exactly. It's something that actually comes all the way back from the revolution, from the French revolution in 1789. It was not the motto of the republic until 1848, which was the second republic in France, but it's been around since the revolution. The fraternity part doesn't really raise a lot of issues, but there is some discussions about which one of liberty or equality you wanna push because clearly, there's some high antagonists. If you have too much liberty, too much freedom, the equality might be damaged and vice versa. If you try to have everybody equal, the liberty will suffer. So, and it's that's interesting because in this motto, the people leaning right or more for liberty, people leaning left or more for equality. And so it's still a subject of topic and discussion in France, is that correct? The motto itself is accepted as one of the symbols of the republic anyway. Nobody would even think of questioning the motto as it is, right? But you have discussions in terms of when political parties argue or push their laws, push their propositions, you could see which one they try to promote more. And clearly, liberty is on the right, equality is on the left. That's interesting, okay? And they still bring it up in discussions and just switch to which one they press. Now, are there any other words of wisdom, French words, French sayings that you can give us because we're in the world, we're in a tough time. Are there some words of wisdom from France that you could share with us and please translate them? In French, I would not know of any French words like this, but the French people as a society, as a whole, they would like to slow things down, take the time to live, that's important. It's especially when you look at the US, when you somehow you lose track of who you are, what you're here for. You're not just here to make a buck. I mean, if it comes with it, that's fine, but it shouldn't be an end in itself. So that's all the things in life. That's a way to live. And again, it's another perspective, right? That's a French perspective, right? Exactly. And that's what gave Paris the name, the city of light, I think, is just the way that the people lived there. They enjoyed life. Is that, am I hearing that right? Is that what you're saying? Well, yeah, it is true that Paris has been a city of life also because it's the city that had a lot of pleasures, a lot of occasions to enjoy life, whether it's artistic, cultural, but it's always been a happy place. Maybe less nowadays, because actually it doesn't have that much of that anymore. And Paris is like all big cities, all capitals. It's fast, it's sometimes dirty, people are not necessarily nice, but you could experience the same thing in any major, major cities. New York City is also known for this kind of things, even though you could say the same thing about how New York City is a pool of cultural events, artistic events, you could do all kinds of things in New York City. But, and the same could be said of Paris, right? It is still a pretty city, it is still definitely a city anyone should wanna visit because it is gorgeous, but Paris is not France. You, I mean, especially Americans who don't necessarily know the world too well, they should never forget that Paris does not represent all of France. Okay, and then, but the general French perspective that you've shared is to slow down a little bit. Yeah, definitely. And go back to nature. Go back to nature. That's probably why I love Hawaii too. Okay, yeah, well, I like that. Okay, so we're gonna close now, I wanna thank you. And I wanna close with the national anthem of France and the flag of France. And tell me, what is the national anthem of France? Please. La marseillaise. La marseillaise. La marseillaise, okay. And we will play this as we go out and I wanna thank you, Freddie, for being my guest today. Aloha, and what do we say in France? You could say, bonne journée, bonne soirée. Depends, to me it's bonne soirée because it's nighttime right now, but to you it'd be good, bonne journée, which have a good day. I have a good day, bonne journée.