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Please use a headset if available. When speaking in hold the microphone, close to your mouth so we can hear you clearly. And when you're invited to address the meeting, please make sure your microphone is switch on. When you finish addressing the meeting, please turn off your microphone immediately. Speak slowly and clearly, and please do not talk over or interrupt anyone else. Please note that if we do need to vote on the item, Rwy'r cymdeithasig y gweld gyda'r system cydnigd yn ddodd y profiad. Mae yw'r cymdeithasig yn ddodd ac mae'r cymdeithasig yn ddodd i'r cymdeithio. Cymru'r cymdeithio'r cymdeithio yn ddodd yn ddodd, rwy'n gweithio i'n gweithio'i sefydlu. Mae'n ddodd arddangos i ddodd yn gweithio'r cwmno, mae'n ddodd o'r cymdeithio a'r profiad yn ddodd yn gweithio'u sefydlu. mae'r gwrthdoedd wedi eu cyfnodol. Yn rhan o'r bwysig, mae'r nrhaid i'w Peter Fane, yn ddesigo ar ôl Llyfr. Mae'r gyrff ddatblygu yn Cyslalu Jeff Hubby. Fe ddim arErl'srwr Peter, r rất o'r newid Gyrff ddatblygu. Mae'r gyrff ddatblygu yn hwnnw i. Mae'r gyrff ddatblygu yn Enru. Llefwch o ganchyfen, Cyslalu Henry Godzilla, wediiased iddyn nhw moonan Linsan. Gyrffr Ddrygwch. Llyfr. am un o'r cyflwyfyr o'r gweithlach a'r gweithlach rydyn ni, ac rwy'n ffordd hynny oedd yng ngyfnodol arall Arriel Caarn oedd. Ion o'r cyflwyfyr Dr Martin Caarn? Ion o'r cyflwyfyr Martin Caarn. A oedd yno'r cyflwyfyr i'r cyflwyfyr Ystyn yn Ymddiannol. Ion o'r cyflwyfyr Bill Handley? Ion o'r cyflwyfyr Bill Handley. Yn o'r cyflwyfyr yr un o'r cyflwyfyr yma, yng Nghymru o'r cyflwyfyr yw Ynw'r Gweithliad. Dean Richard Williams, gallwch i'r gweithio'r poderian o unwyr, yn yr yma. Af rda maen nhw'n rhoi gyda'r llun? Mae'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi, yn yr yma. Mae o'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi, yn yr yma. Mae'r ddodol cofio ond o switched ward. Mae'n rhoi'n rhoi, mae yma'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi'n rhoi newydd. Felly byddwn yn oed ein bydd yn urhyn. Rwy'r iawn dyfwyl iawn sydd wedi'u cyflwנים yn ddwylo'r cwrthol i'r gwrth mws. Phil Macintosh, newyddiad yma. Mae gwrth gwrth gwrth gwrth gwrth gwrth gwrth gwrth gwrth gwrth gwrth yma, fel y maen nhw. Mae'n sylfaen Mae Yn ddysgu'r lle greu. Y Llywydd sanktol alwein. Rhaid angenTextill saddf mod Wonder neighbour. Gryd feliciter知, Y Llywydd Cymru. Da initi wedi eu cof pedwg ysgrifennu o'r drwg. Rwy'n cael eiwl dozen yma sydd wedi gandded, I T services in valuable. Good morning chair. Thank you very much. So I intend that we should take a break at about 11.45 if that is necessary. And if any member leaves the meeting would they please make that fact known to my Vice Chair so that can be recorded in the minutes. extracting member's need for the main agenda packed dated six of december and there was an also an online plans pack supplement dated seven of December item two on our agenda days apologies for absence Laurence any apologies for absence today. Yes thank you chair camps of Ariel can't send apologies for absence and council Bradham's kindly stepped in substitute we've also got apologies Tom Horkins, William Jackson Wood, ac yn Gweithgaredd Peter Stamfordrol iawn i gweithio â'r blant yn yogi i ddychgynno. Rhaid? Rhyw backing up. Rhyw backing up. Gweithgaredd 32â. Rhaid mewn ddech� invalidau'n cas i'r gweithgaredd arno yn podod arall o'r gwasanaeth yma? Dwi'n rhaid i Gofyn o'r gwaith gwaith, yn gweithio'r gwaith o'r gwaith o'r gwaith o'r gwaith? Mae'n rhaid o'r cyffredinol. Mae'r ddraeth ar y 5 i gael. Mae'n grŵp mwyaf o'r moathaethaf familial sefydliad, felly gwylwafodd i ddweud eich dŵr o ddisgesiwm gwaith oherwydd Robert o dechrau byddai'n gweithio dros oes oherwydd ei ddweud o'r ddweud o dddorog. bywch am ddigusio'n meddwleth, yn ymddorol, ac yn amddorol, oherwydd i'r blynyddoedd yng Ngorffredd Llaedden. Dwi gynadau bod meddwlch yn unrhyw yng nghymru sydd wedi i wouldon mewn sgwspolol i'r Llywodraethau Llywodraethau yn y cydymaetol ffymu? Rwyf wedi ddim prifael, oherwydd yn ymddoedd yn symudíu ydw meddwlachol o'rπόodynau cysylltiaeth o'r Llywodraethau, yn gweithio'i ti'r adeiliadol yn y Hfelcydd i'r adeiliadol hwnnw yn y Gweith takes. Yn y prif o ran Newhyn ni, mae'r adeiliadol hwnnw yn gweithio'n adeiliadol hwnnw yn y Gweith. Yn y gweithio yr adeiliadol hwnnw fyddo ddod y Darling. Felly mae'n gwrthon ystod o'r ffordd o'i gyrfa'n gweithio'n gweithio, ac mae'n gwrthon o'r gweithio'n gweithio yn 11 o'r nofemba. Rhaid i'w ddweud yma yng nghymru yw ymgriffiadau ar y cyflawn yma? Roedd rhai o'r ddweud o'r gweithio hwnnw i fynd o ddod o'r gweithio i'w ddod o'i gweithio o'r gweithio'n gweithio? I think I can take it by affirmation that we accept those meetings is correct. Thank you. Can I also take the approval of these minutes by affirmation please? I think that is all agreed so those minutes are approved. Now we come to item five which relates to an application in Melbourne and that you will find on page seven of your agenda. This is application number 2203957 HFUL in relation to an application at 62 High Street Melbourne and the reason this is being taken by the committee is that the application is submitted by an elected member of the council and I believe that Mary Collins may be online to present this to us. Mary you there. Hello chair yes can you hear me? Good morning yes we can hear you clearly. Yes good morning good right okay then well I'll just turn my camera on and get my presentation ready so just bear with me for a moment please. Councillor Peter Sandford has just joined us online. Good morning Peter welcome. Good morning thank you apologies my camera is not working so you'll not be able to see my smiling face this morning. Councillor Sandford very good to not to see you but to hear you at least and to know that you're there. Can you just confirm whether you have any declarations of interest in relation to any of the business on this agenda? I have no declarations of interest other than as you were discussing I am acquainted with the applicant of this particular application. Right very how are we doing? We can see the. Right okay okay alright then in that case I will start with the the application. Okay so 62 High Street Melbourne is situated on the western side of the High Street and on the southern side of Rose Lane which runs here and to the rear are properties in cross lane. The property is a detached building which is within the conservation area and is noted as being one as a non designated heritage asset. The joining the application site is a listed building here and residential properties all around there. As I say the site is in within the Melbourne conservation area and next to grade 2 listed building there. So the proposal is for the construction of a swimming pool, a natural swimming pool in the rear garden of the property. So this just shows the position of the pool and here just shows the position of the pool in relation to an existing tree in the rear garden. So the swimming pool itself would be sunk into the ground and would have an air source heat pump providing energy to it. This slide here just shows the rear garden, the site of the proposed swimming pool and this is just showing a picture of the tree. So this is a eucalyptus tree, it's going to be quite close proximity to the pool but it is to be retained and it's considered that there wouldn't be any harm from the proposal to the tree. So in terms of visual impact and impact on the conservation area there are very limited views of the rear garden from the public realm of the conservation area and given that the pool itself is a sunken structure there's not going to be any real impact on the wider conservation area. So this slide here just shows a view that you can get through the entrance way to the property. So you can see the tree, so the pool itself would be here. So there's no real impact whatsoever on the conservation area or the setting of the nearby listed building. In terms of neighbours, obviously the pool won't have any impact. There is an air source heat pump proposed but environmental health officers are satisfied that that is acceptable in the position that it's proposed to be. So overall it's considered that taking everything into account the proposal would not impact on the conservation area and would not impact it tremendously on the amenities of neighbouring properties. So I think that's the end of my presentation, Chair. So thank you. Thank you very much Mary. A useful final slide on the planning balance. Does anyone have any questions? We have Councillor Adam Bradman. Thank you Chair. Online there was also a couple of photographs taken from the road outside which showed a very substantial hedge all around the northern and eastern side of the property. In other words, facing the public realm and I was sort of expecting to see that in your presentation. It doesn't matter that it wasn't there but it's just to confirm that that boundary has a very substantial hedge there. Could you confirm that Mary? Yes, all around the, actually I understand. It's in one of this series of photographs. Yes, so this slide here would kind of show it. This is the boundary. I think this is the one with cross lane. Yes, so this shows a lot of the boundary going around the rear of the site there. So it is very well screened and I think this one here, then you've got an outbuilding here and a bit of a sort of flint wall to the rose lane boundary as well. So it is very self-contained and private. Thank you. And the other thing I wanted to ask was could you confirm, is the air source pump going to be in the out building broadly speaking to the east of where the pool is proposed to be? It's going to be sited alongside that building. So in other words, it's on the nearest thing is the road. Yes, there are no near neighbours who might be disturbed by the noise of an air source heat pump. Yes, so in terms of the impact from the air source heat pump, it's going to be located about here. And this is the intervening rose lane and then we've got the neighbour there. So we consider, given the fact there's also that wall along that boundary, that there wouldn't be any detrimental impact. We've also, I think we're attaching an informative just to make sure that obviously the air source heat pump is kept in and maintained so it should, you know, perform to the noise levels that are considered not to be detrimental. Thank you. Any other questions for members present? I have a brief one myself. Am I right in thinking that the reason that this needs planning consent as opposed to being done under permitted development is because it is in the conservation area and the potential impact on the listed building. And therefore paragraph 1010 says the proposal would not harm the character and appearance of the conservation area and that the proposal is not considered to impact on the setting of the adjacent listed building would be relevant. Is that correct? Mary, we think you're on mute. Sorry about that, Chair. The reason we consider planning permission is required is because the structure under clause E of part one is to the side of the listed building. Because the two gardens to this property are both to the side. If it was to the rear then potentially it wouldn't have needed planning permission but it's because it's due to being to the side. But because it then needs planning permission we obviously then will take into consideration its impact on the conservation area and any other heritage assets such as that adjacent listed building. But that is the reason for it requiring planning permission. Thank you. Any other questions for Mary Collins? I don't see any. I think I'm right in saying we have no submission by the parish councils or local members on this, do we? Lawrence, I think you're indicating that we do not have any. So shall we move straight to the debate on this? Does anyone want to make a contribution to the debate or indeed to make a proposal? Councillor Anna Braden. I'm not wishing to stop any discussion but I see no objection to this application. It's completely screened and I don't think it's likely to cause any disturbance to neighbours. Thank you. I don't see any violent objections to that that we need to debate. Councillor Batchelor. Thank you. I was just going to say I was going to probe the officer as to why we hadn't had a comment from the conservation officer given it is in the conservation area, albeit your question, Chair, has confirmed that it's only before us because of the impact on the neighbouring buildings and not the fact it's in the conservation area, albeit that is a consideration. So no, I mean I'm content with the contents of the report and I don't see any reason to refuse. Councillor Batchelor, are you therefore seconding Councillor Braden's proposal? I'll be happy to, yeah. Thank you very much. Does anyone have a contrary view on this? Because it is a member, I, whilst I might take this by affirmation, I'm proposing that we do actually have an electronic vote and I think we're all aware of the procedure for that and can we set that up? So just to confirm if you are in favour of approval then having pressed blue you would then press the green and of course if you wish to refuse this you would press the other one, which I think was blue. It looks as though we have all voted and we are all in favour so I can confirm that that is approved subject to the conditions as set out. Thank you members. We then move on to item six, the proposed protocol for member site visits. Now of course we haven't been doing member site visits in most cases for some time for obvious reasons but it is proposed that there should be a similar protocol for all of the three development management development control planning committees under the operation of the joint planning service and I can ask Cheryl to present on this. Thank you chair. Four members is a planning committee protocol for office led site visits for applications which are to be considered by the planning committee. The purpose of the protocol is to ensure that there is a consistent approach towards site visits across the three committees which form part of the shared planning service. Site visits are a helpful part of the decision making process enable members of the planning committee to see the site of the planning application and understand its surroundings and relationship with neighbouring land. The protocol sets out a number of aspects associated with planning committee site visits which are the purpose of a site visit, request a site visit and conduct of officers and members on site visits. Full details of the protocol are set out in appendix one of the report which starts on page 22 of the agenda. Not all planning applications will require site visits however can result from one of the following which the request can be made by a member of the planning committee in writing stating the reasons why it is considered necessary. The direction of planning and economic development or lead development manager consider one is necessary in the interests of proper decision making and the south commissioner district council planning committee calls for a site visit following the deferral of a decision by the planning committee for the express purpose of visiting the site. The recommendation is set out in section two of the report on page 18 of the agenda which recommends the committee note the report and accompanying site visit protocol for officer-led site visits and confirms the protocol for officer-led site visits for the south curvature district council planning committee. Thank you very much for that clear presentation. Let's move to member questions. Councillor Badden, would you forgive me if I go in first on this and then we have Councillor Heather Williams? Just a couple of points, three two on page 18. During the planning committee visit the merits of the application are not discussed. I'm just wondering to what extent it is feasible to separate the merits of the application entirely from the facts. I can see that in principle we should not be discussing the merits, but if we're focusing on the facts that describe those merits, can they be entirely separated? I think obviously it's having attended site visits with the committee. It's a chance to obviously point this site out any relevant considerations that may be discussed when debating the item, but it isn't really the forum for having the discussion about member's views or opinions on the merits of the proposal. It is really to explain the proposal and its context so that members are clear about the relationship with the proposal and surrounding land. I'm stood. Just one brief comment on three five a request by a councillor of the SCDCPC. We refer in a number of places to PCs. I'm just a little worry that we often use that to describe parish councils and I wonder if we're worth clarifying what role, if any, parish councils might have on site visits. Obviously the reference there is taken just from the obviously shortening the south camp statistic council planning committee in 1.2, which is the first time it's mentioned in the report, rather than having to actually spot that every time in the report itself. Is the parish approached a member of the planning committee suggesting that a site visit may be warranted? Obviously that could then be expressed back to the lead development manager whose responsibility is for determining whether a site visit is appropriate. So they could ask a member of the planning committee if they felt it was warranted and that could be taken into consideration. Thank you for that. Now we have a number of other questions for you. Firstly councillor Adam Bradburn. Thank you chair. I've actually got three elements if I may. Firstly I've asked for this as a past chair of joint development control committee and I'm very glad to see that we're bringing a policy to all committees in the in the shared planning service. I've always found site visits extremely useful as a fact-gathering exercise with a presentation from the case officer, particularly because sometimes things can look fine on paper and then when you go to the site you realise it isn't and sometimes it can look awful on paper and sometimes when you go to the site it's perfectly fine and this is all information gathering as as we all come to planning committees with an open mind and so it's important that we see these things but also there are occasions when there have been objections from neighbours and it's important that we are able to see from the neighbour's point of view what it is they're objecting to and those sorts of visits are very carefully managed by the officers and I'm very glad to see that that's being allowed for in this. The one thing a couple of things the only thing is I wanted to also ask how will a councillor know the pertinent point at which to request an application comes to has a site visit because it says at 3.51 a request by a councillor of the South Cancer Street Council planning committee in writing giving reasons why the site visit is considered necessary during the time that an application is being processed so I just want to know how we would know at that point to ask the question and also will parish councils be able to ask for a site visit and a more mundane point will it be planned for this committee that we have transport or will we be expected to undertake our own transport as we have done in the past thank you. Three chair I think I've covered the parish council point in my previous comment but just to be clear if a parish council wished for application to be considered with a site visit by the committee they could raise that with a member of the planning committee who would then feed that back to the lead delivery manager for the committee. Sorry what was your comment? How would we know that an application was being processed? Sorry I think the point is that the delivery manager will decide which visits to arrange but by the time members know whether such a visit has been arranged it may be a little late to submit a request in writing have I got the point right there? Yes well obviously if an application is called to committee by a member who's a member of the planning committee obviously a request could be made for a site visit at that point. Forgive me but how would a local member know if they weren't on planning committee? Not bit. As the chair has said how would a local member know that an application was coming and was it was during the time that an application was being processed? We have our regular lists that come through but is that would we be informed that an application was being considered for consideration at planning committee because at that point that a member might wish to suggest a site visit would be useful. Are you happy that the four answers that we picked answer Heather Williams' question? Thank you. Thank you because I think this is a point so when I read through the report there is no provision for local members the request is from the councillor of the planning committee so to take councillor Bradford's point I think the document doesn't make provision for that at all let alone whether they'd be notified. Also if we look on page 19 on 3.11 it says that only members of SEDC planning committee in the past local members have been able to attend the site visit as well and there doesn't seem to be any provision for that in this document for local members. I also do think that for the parish council if we allowed local members to be able to play a role in this if we enabled under 3.5 to have a fourth one that local members would be able to request a site visit that would help with the parish council requests because I do think by saying that parish councils need to come to one of us as an individual on planning committee or a substitute because there's also there's no reference of substitutes in this. I think actually we're being put in a very difficult position because we're being asked to do it in time in writing when and we're having a request for a parish council I don't think it is right for myself without any consultation with other members because we've not had a meeting on it or the local members if I get something so I'm going to chew over because you're sat next to me but someone from over at asks me to request a site visit you're not going to want to say no because obviously it's important to them but equally is it right for us to be making that judgment when we then got to be open and transparent and we've also got to be sort of unjust and biased so I think that is a it's a bit of a situation. Parish councils are already consulted and local members are already consulted through the application form perhaps whereas you've got like the request to go to committee request for site visit could also be on there for the forms that local members and parish councils fill in and then that would be a natural sort of not too much extra work but would be a natural process as opposed to us planning committee members we look at the agenda we look at it and think actually we need to go there that's fair enough but I I'm not comfortable with this whole the whole district could essentially just come through one individual council and local members don't get a look in I think that's I think that's wrong um sorry. So how do you respond to that? No I understand understand what you're saying council Williams um yeah as you say it's trying to keep this a consistent protocol across the the the two city council and south camps but obviously there are some differences there in terms of the parish involvement for south camp which is I understand what you're saying um I can take that point away and look to include something that in as you say involves parish councils requesting applications coming to committee plus including a site visit I can see the relevance of that for um yeah and local members absolutely yeah yeah that's the purpose of the site visit is for the planning committee I suppose that is what it's for because you are obviously the decision makers on the application so that is why we've referenced the planning committee um yeah whether local again local members are going I can I can take that take that back as well in terms of that point. I think I'm right in saying that in the past local members were usually invited to attend when there was a formal visit so I think that would be worth and clearly if you addressed that point you would need to also address the question of uh whether local members would be allowed to say anything on the formal visit if that was to take place um perhaps I could come back to councillor Adam Bradlin first and then to councillor Handley if I may. Thank you chair. It's uh it's it's quite a complex issue isn't it because parish councils the primary there are the start they are the start point for planning applications and I think it's very helpful that councillor Heather Williams has suggested that prompt for a site visit being put on the parish council return form so that they can be prompted to think about that um but in my experience the presence of a local member can be very helpful because very often the local member remembers the history in a location sometimes that is not relevant but sometimes it is and uh also sometimes the local member can put the case when a when the actual complainant is doesn't feel confident to make the case themselves so that that all happens at committee but if they're not there on the site it's um you know sometimes that's useful for the local member too so I think I think that would be helpful if the local member could be enabled in a managed way. I think I think we need to be careful that the local members aren't there advocating one case or the other um because you are it is there not to debate the merits of the proposal it's it's about pointing out facts. I'm so sorry if that's all you've got to say that's not how it what so what are we trying to do is give equal opportunities so we can be local members in these applications so that is a local member on site but for those who are represented by people not on planning committee you've then got an imbalance of their local representative isn't meant to be there also we've never had put in the case but what I have experience on a site visit was a local member was able to to um make something that was a bit a bit unclear as to where the drain is ditch and where it was it was flooding obviously they knew the area better so they didn't seek to sway our opinion but they took us to this specific area that was being raised for us to be able to then make our considerations so it wasn't debating or swaying it was very helpful to say actually no it it wasn't that place there it was this place here where the flooding was or whatever that is so it was in again it was information finding I just wanted to be clear on that thank you now members I have a number of other members wanted to speak but I think council handy wanted to come in at this point so if others will forgive me I'll come straight to council handy thanks because I have a contrary view to it to all of this I actually don't think that either parish councils or local members should be present because I've been on site visits where members of a parish council show up and they attempt to sow seeds into the minds of the planning committee I mean on the occasions it's happened whilst I've been there the chair has been very quick to shut that down but there is that there is that risk and I actually think that the advantages of having a member of a parish council there is far outweigh by the disadvantages in my opinion parish councils have got the they can come and talk to us on these days and present their case I do not believe that their presence at a site visit which is after all is just allowing us to see the lie of the land that's what we're there to do we're not there to to assess the merits pros and cons we're there to look at the look at the way the parish the plan lays out on the ground and the same thing and the same thing councillor the the what council hand is not giving way at this moment sorry council hand is not giving way are you giving way to councillor braddon councillor councillor hand are you giving way to council I'll draw the finish if you don't mind actually I'd like to finish yeah council hand is not giving way please carry on because I and I think the same thing for the for the the member the local members exactly the same thing they can they'll have a view on what on the merits of these polling applications and even even subconsciously they may start to apply kind of pressure to it I just don't think they should be there I think what's written down here is is what we should be voting for councillor braddon point of information thank you I apologize council hand me I just wanted to point out that I didn't suggest that members of parish council should attend the site visit I was simply advocating for the local member so the question we're now addressing is relates both to local members who in the past have been allowed to attend and a representative of the parish council and I think council hand me makes a very valid point that there is an opportunity to present the case forgive me there is an opportunity to present the case at the meeting itself for the point that's been made by others is that can be very helpful as a matter of information to have at least a local member present to including to put forward any information which might otherwise have come from the parish council and I think that is the balance we have to try and strike council Williams thank you chair to be clear in we have never as a council to my knowledge and definitely not since I was been elected invited parish councils to it we sort of we're going to see it just to be completely clear what we've done in the past we've never invited parish councils or town councils to site visits it's just been the local member because you're saying about whether they've seen us in the street and turned up that that's a different issue but we've never invited parish councils and I do feel that's not clear for this debate I am aware of some occasions where representatives of parish councils have attended as observers and as council handling said it is for the chair to make very clear the rules should people seek to intervene and to influence the planning committee on that information visit so um well do you want to respond to this or is this a matter we should take in consideration I mean I think we've heard what's been said obviously there's been country view expressed by council handling about whether we should be including ward members um and a parish request for a site visit um I'm happy to review it and and consider whether we can we can include something around local members attending can I suggest a compromise on this point council Williams did you want to make a further point on this Councillor Williams uh thank you chair I was just seeking to clarify with council handling whether it's the attempt because I think we've got two separate issues and it'd be great if we can agree on as much as possible um what I've heard from council handling is about concerns about the attendance of others than the planning committee on site visits but what I didn't hear but it may be the case for council handling was an objection to a parish council or local member requesting that committee see the site so there's a difference between asking committee whether they will go and view it and who can and can't attend we've got two issues that have been discussed so have we got agreement on the request because I think that would help officers I think I'm going to suggest a compromise here which sort of represents the views that have been put forward the first is in relation to how uh such visits are requested I think parish councils should they wish to request such a visit should put that request through their local member who may or may not be a member of this committee which takes us back to the point that councillor Brandon made at the start how are local members to know whether or if it has been arranged or not um they can of course talk to a member of the committee or indeed directly to Phil McIntosh the second is the question of who attends such visits and what they can say if anything unattending I think there is a feeling and I don't pretend to represent we haven't heard from all members of the committee but that local members have in the past been invited to attend and that may in addition be helpful to the committee for local members to point out factual information in relation to the site that would otherwise not perhaps be available to us because of their local knowledge however I think we should leave it to the chair or vice chair whoever is chairing the visit to ensure that local members and indeed anybody attending the visit does not seek to influence the committee and accepts the broad terms of this which is that this information this visit is for information and not in principle for discussion of the merits of the application. Councillor Bradley, is that broadly what you were thinking? Yes, thank you chair that's very helpful um and the point is that nobody at a site visit says very much except for the case officer they simply present the case and it's for that everybody there just simply to listen and if a local member can provide clarification of something that has been misunderstood then that's for the chair to manage but nobody on a site visit says very much they might ask a question but that's for everybody who is attending the site visit to hear. I think perhaps there you're referring to what should happen not necessarily what has always happened in the past um Councillor Andy I recognise that my I call it a compromise is not quite what you were suggesting subject to the chair being expected to make it clear to all president of the limitations on what they should be saying would you be happy with that or do you still feel that local members should not be invited to attend? I my I'm not going to dine it itch on this frankly uh you know I but but I my experience is that these issues are often very um full of emotion in in villages and local members get drawn into discussions with parish council and other members of the parish and cannot escape having no same kind of emotional feelings about things and that's why I don't think it's it's good to have them there but I'm not I'm not going to dine a ditch over it frankly. Before I come to Councillor Heather Williams again can I invite all members to consider how they would feel if a site visit is taking place in their own ward and they're not invited or not aware of the site visit is taking place and for instance how would parish councils feel if a local member had failed to attend a visit in order to make the facts of the situation clear because they had not been aware and had not been invited I think that is a factor we need to consider Councillor Williams. Thank you and and in attempt to put a proposal that perhaps we can all agree to is actually this this document it's it's needed and I think actually the debate that we've had shows that it's needed for priority and transparency but equally we've gone a long time without it we could probably make it to the next meeting without it so can I put a proposal that officers have heard what's been said and so the majority of you if if we as councils as well want to make any proposals or amendments to this we can do that in the future future meeting and and debate amendments because because what I'm concerned at the moment is we've had a discussion there is a difference but if we were to take a vote now we wouldn't actually know what we were voting on and what I think it's it has it is a sensitive issue and it's an important issue so it's not right that we just sort of say okay make something up along our lines and see where we go because obviously it's important so can I propose that this item is brought back to us at the next committee um amended as per what your compromise to something you know in writing that we can then vote or amend it during the course of the next meeting because I feel that we make a decision now we wouldn't really know what we were doing it was all very helpful before I asked for a seconder for that before I asked for a seconder um can I ask people do you think it is possible to drop a wording based on the compromise that I suggested earlier I think it's broadly acceptable to council handily as well yeah and can I just confirm that were we to take that procedure we do have an existing protocol and can proceed with visits in the meanwhile okay there's nothing stopping us proceeding with site visits for for planning committee items it's just that we haven't had a protocol in place in order to to do that and as I say it was designed to be consistent across the three committees where site visits take place um but as I said earlier I'm happy to review it based on the debate that's happened um given the sensitivities that have been mentioned and concerns being mentioned and and bring it back with some some wording that would include those points that have been made but just to be clear as well we weren't this wasn't an item to be voted on it was to be yes an item for information um well it's quite clear we can't give affirmation for it as we've been at the moment but do you want to make this a formal proposal uh very mind you that's the status of the report or are you happy to to leave it the film we'll take it away and come back to us um on the basis that the recommendation is for us to confirm this that entails us supporting it which currently I don't think we feel we're in a position to so I'd like to move the sort of motion that I made early out and I think I have a seconder sorry sorry uh hang on a minute do we have a seconder for that motion thank you all right I'm happy to second but I just wanted to make a further point and that is that at 3.51 that it should be at the request of a councillor of the south canister district council planning committee or a substitute um as we mentioned earlier um but I'm happy to I'm happy to second that this is revised and brought back to us when uh confirmation from the other planning committees can be uh confirmed I think I wouldn't be happy to affirm this at present so I'm happy that it's brought back we think that a substitute is taken to be a member of the committee for this purpose but perhaps we could clarify that in the word. I think it would be helpful to councillor Heather Williams I'm not quite sure whether councillor Adam Bradlam has in fact seconded your motion or or I did say I'd second it but we're following are you happy that that is the form that we're now taking I'm happy they'll obviously would like it that all local of you've both said all local members and then the substitute thing hopefully would not be an issue but yes some okay um do we do we have any councillors wish to speak on this particular point I think I'll see counter which I did register to speak at the start just I think I've been quite patient I do have some other points actually I wanted to make which I think we need to take into account before we move on from this um firstly reasons um 3.51 and the part that's reflected in appendix one talks about the cancer should give reasons why a site visit is to be considered necessary I'd like some clarification of what reasons they are are they material considerations are they they have to refer to the MPPF or the local plan um reasons seems quite quite vague and it wouldn't really be much of a guide for any member wishing to request a site visit to know what what exactly they had to say um other point and I this is a point of clarification I mean is is this a change in policy because I joined this committee in the middle of the pandemic when we were live so I've barely ever done a site visit but my understanding was that prior to the pandemic site visits were routine um so that this will actually be quite a if that is the case quite a significant policy change because we basically seem to be saying we're not going to go back to routine site visits that does concern me because I think a number of us actually conduct private site visits um which are you know um sometimes not as good as a formal one because you can't necessarily see inside somebody's garden I think a number of us do so we we are going to we could end up in a situation with the committee as we've got now where some people are seeing the site some people haven't seen the site and that does concern me that there's not really an equal basis for decision making there because people are judging the application on on slightly different things so I think personally I would much prefer that we went back to routine site visits um and to be honest with you I think if we amend this to say local members can request site visits we are going to go back anyway to routine site visits because every local member is probably going to request one um so point of clarification there but but also also a comment on on policy um and my third and final point I did just want to reiterate what Councillor Bradman said right at the start which I think is a very good point which is about this this requirement that we request um a visit during the time the application is processed I mean I I don't have time to keep track of every single planning application um before south camps district council on the basis that it might one day come to planning committee um at the very least if we are to stick to that members would need to be told after the delegation meetings which applications were in the pipeline to come to committee so at that point members could decide if they wanted to request a site visit so there would be enough time to organise it um obviously waiting until the agenda is published a week before um incident my parish council seems to find out what's on the planning committee agenda before I do but there we are that's a side point um you know week before it's just not enough time to organise a site visit so at the very least we'd have to be told after each delegation meeting what the outcome is so there'd be a reasonable time to make a decision thank you yes good point um can I suggest that you we take all these points together on this related issue and you respond at the end I feel you're happy with that um now I see council Brandon wants to make a further comment on this did you because council rich williams has raised a point which I'd like to clarify having been on the planning committee since 2014 as as my understanding was and I'm sure that chair is familiar with this that it never was routine it was recommended as on the basis of the requests and the perceived need it wasn't it wasn't for everything um because you know there were some extensions for example that came to parish council to to the planning committee because they were like member applications and there was there wasn't need to look at those where there's a something big and serious and it's likely to impact the community yes they were often um undertaken a site visits um but they weren't just as far as I was aware routine it was a matter of um discretion of the chair and the and the planning development um manager right I'd now like to return to the order in which um questions were raised my advice chairman's currently prevents presenting me with a list and I know that to council Henry bachelor has been very patient did you want to make a separate point or do you want to come back on this point I think they're all linked ultimately chair but um as it was some half an hour ago I registered to speak I've slightly forgotten what the question was but um I would make the point that I think from from memory when we were conducting site visits regularly before pre-covid um what the process used to be was that either the parish council or the local member could put in a request for a site visit to be made they then made the case why they thought a site visit would be necessary that is up to the discretion of the chair and the um the senior officer as to whether a site visit would subsequently be helpful for members based on those comments so there wasn't an automatic referral process but it was a matter of consideration by by chair and and senior officers so I mean I'd be you know more than content with with that process as it was but um but yeah because you appreciate the comments of of my colleagues um and yeah I did have a question around um who could make a request for a site visit to take place but I understand that is one of the things being taken away by I feel so yeah I'm happy to have a look at the revised wording if and when that does come back so that's the point I'm going to make sure I think you can answer Harley vice chair thank you chair um well two points um firstly um as the membership of this committee does sort of turn over over time um I think whatever we eventually end up with it would be helpful if the sort of basics of the code around interactions um if non-members of the committee are allowed to be at these events um if they were sort of briefly summarised um either by the chair or case officer before the meeting kind of kicks off so we will know what the rules are um and um second point is um I mean I'm sort of conflicted in terms of whether we should or should not allow um people who aren't members of the committee to be at these events because I can see the sort of danger there of um an opportunity to influence the committee being exploited over enthusiastically on the other hand have been at these visits where local knowledge has been very useful to the committee in understanding um what the issues are and um as I think the previous member pointed out you know just just identifying um particular items of interest um that do um pertain to the decision that will ultimately made a planning committee so um I I wonder whether a way around that is that we don't allow direct interaction between say if it's a member of the parish council or the local member um except via either the chair or the case officer in other words if they think at the site visit they've got a particular item that should be identified um and made obvious to the committee then that should be done via an intermediary who um knows what the rules are and and knows the limits in terms of using that's an opportunity to influence just to clarify you vice-chair if I may when you refer to non-members attending you're referring to the local member possibly attending are you yes I think because that as far as I understand it is is is still within the debate even though I know a lot of right comments have been made thank you um councillor dr martin carl has been very patient I'm going to come back to uh the comment that uh I mean there's two matters there's one the conduct of the site visit and who can attend um which I generally feel that it's probably it depends upon good sharing of the visit I mean that's really what matters if some of it it's it's true that we've had experiences of um owners and um you know members who end up at site visits trying to intervene uh and it's difficult because they don't really understand that it's just a matter of the facts and that good sharing should deal with that and we're aware of that and should be aware of that we have to discount um so I'm not too worried about that as long as we have good sharing on the actual site visits and I think sometimes it's true that it's helpful in terms of information provided my difference my opinion is that I think every application that comes to committee should have a site visit available that's my personal opinion I don't think you can deal with an application without having seen it on the site if I was a planning officer I would not deal with an application without having seen it on the site we'll take the place of planning officers we shouldn't be expected to do the same so I feel that every application that comes to committee should have the possibility of a site visit that's my personal view um um I feel very strongly about that and that even applies to simple applications by councillors we're councillors or people who are employed because in that case even if it's straightforward it's important that it's seen to be fairly judged and how if we don't have a site visit how are we going to defend it if something comes up so I feel it's actually important even though simple applications that we've been to site we've had the opportunity to go to site and see it I do like councillor Dr Williams I have been well I felt it was nice to be gone to site visits but it was very I found it very very helpful when we had a tour around all the sites to go and see the sites and I would like that but I'm rather sad that this has not been really started but up to now I think we're probably in a situation where we go on buses regularly we've been courage to go on buses at the moment and we're not going on a mini bus round to go and look at the sites I think we should be doing so um thank you I my my view will be that every every application have a site visit and that would get rid of all the application about who demands a site visit but there we are that's my view councillor Handley you were down to speak earlier but I think you may have raised this earlier in the debate on other comments did you want to come come back again I have you on my list here sorry chair on what which issue was this sorry I think I've spoken to it yet I wondered I had you down as somebody who wanted to contribute to the debate I think you may have done so earlier am I correct I think I think I've made my points thank you on my points earlier okay look um I am keen to ensure that we give a bit of discretion to the um development manager bearing in mind of course that what we are talking about is rather more than guidance but for three committees who have had rather different practices in the past and it is intended it should be common um I think most of us would agree that uh shared visits by the whole committee are generally better than private visits by individuals however uh I'm not sure that we should tie the development manager's hands in suggesting that all applications should be visited um there may be occasions when there is a relatively simple application where a site visit may not add much to our knowledge particularly if it's an outlying village and so on um and I would not wish to tie the development manager's hands in setting up our site visits um I think there has been a suggestion that we need to have some procedure for determining in advance whether sites are to be visited and I wonder whether this is a matter that could be discussed informally between the development manager as it usually will be and the chair and vice chair at the end during the course of delegation meetings it's not to be on the committee agenda on the agenda for that meeting but so that we have some procedure for taking into account the committee's views on future site visits as well as which item should come to the should come to the committee in the first place well I see I've generated new comments on that from councillors Bradman and Leanne from the vice chair so can I take it in that order thank you chair um of course the implication is that any member or substitute of the planning committee would need to be make themselves available for a further sometimes day of of attending visits so it's just to recognise that in addition to the actual planning committee there is a further time commitment required in this in this um proposal which members of the planning committee are likely to welcome I would suggest but it may be difficult for people to manage which is why I think it's important that we retain the option that they attend privately with all the constraints that are in the paper if they are unable to attend on the day when the site visit is around I don't think there's anything in this paper that suggests that any member of the committee who has not attended the site visit is in any way less able to determine the application before I think it's very we need to make be very clear that although we are suggesting committee site visits members the committee who cannot attend are not in any way disabled no contribution at the committee itself and chair I quite agree on that and the only point I was saying was it also does enable members to go in their own right if they can't attend at the time that the committee site visit is. Councillor Hundley I would be very happy to um you know as long as we've got a chair we've got a procedure when we visit that the chair is in control and basically everybody talks through him or her I would be more happy because I often in my experience because I've been on the planning committee previously where we were doing because I visit routinely almost you know the committee would get strung out and you know members would be talking to someone over this side you know and and maybe a local someone else would be talking to someone over there you don't know what the heck they're saying and this is my point and that's why I would rather have a nice clean break and say nobody no parish council nobody talks to the committee when they're on site because we're only there on fact finding yes thanks farby thank you chair um but I just want to express my reservations I will extreme reservations on the proposal from councillor card because I just think well firstly the expense of laying on visits for every application that comes to committee the impact on officer time to the word he's so stretched and also I feel that where that would be would be I mean I don't think I would be able to be on planning committee and to commit that amount of time to it and and then so I think the inevitable result of that would be that you would end up going to no visits because you you would say well I can't go to them all so I think it's far better that the officers do identify the ones which they think really need a site visit and then hopefully the majority of the committee turn up to those ones that's what I want to say councillor Heather Williams thank you chair just hoping that my motion hasn't got lost along the way um but if I could you know I hope that still stands bearing by the comments that have been made since Williams you recall I asked you whether you want to proceed with a formal proposal whether it was a motion whether you had a seconder for that which I did and councillor Bradlund seconded you have seconded and then do you want to push that to a vote yes and all I have to say is on what's been said since what was regular and what was routine was it was always on the Tuesday and we all had it in our diaries that on the Tuesday before planning committee so that was routine we didn't us we saw all major applications we didn't always see minor applications just to give the context because appreciate not everybody was pre covid on site visits but it was routine that we all knew on a Tuesday there would be site visits and that myself I wouldn't attend somewhere without having officers there because I feel personally that that opens us up to a level of exposure of someone anyone could say we weren't we were talking to whoever so I think there is an element of protection for those that aren't comfortable going on their own the site visits give so I think regular time is is key let's not the regularity of every application but yes I did have a motion it was seconded thank you chair yes and I said that I was very keen not to bind the hands of our development manager and before we vote on that motion I would like to give the manager and maybe the legal advisor an opportunity to comment very mind the status of the proposal here because if we take a formal vote on this I'm not quite sure how that may we then have to consider there are two other development management development control committees to take into account would it be useful to seek legal advice well shall we take legal advice on this or indeed from our developer manager I'm not comfortable this goes to a vote this was for information purposes and I would be more comfortable if we let the manager take away what's been said and bring an item back before you if we go to a formal vote we we must take into account this is not just about this planning committee and I don't want anything fettered going forward so my advice is that this does not go to a formal vote we let the development manager take away the comments which are I think extremely useful and then he can feed that back in and bring something back to the committee whether that would need to be voted on next time I think it's something that development manager chair vice chair and I can discuss but at this point my advice is that this does not go to a formal vote that's Williams are you happy that this matter be taken away and reflected upon and that we do not take a formal vote today at some point we will need to affirm our support for the document as a menu would you agree to that or do you want to press this to a vote now thank you my motion was to do that my motion was that we allow officers to come back later on and actually not to vote on the paper today so to clarify that what's been said is my motion all I would say on though on protocols that we may be a shared service but we have different plans different policies different demographics between us and city there is nothing that says that we must do things in south cams ideally the same city if we can agree on things fine but we will we will not as a committee there is no requirement for us to do as the jdcc does as the city does it may be helpful to have similarities but if we feel strongly as a district then we are not bound and our hands are not bound and we should do what we think is right for our district and for our committee even if that means because we're talking differences there aren't parish councils in city you know it's completely different so I'm sorry I do not agree that the protocols have to be the same that is not the idea of the shared planning service yes the problem we have here is that the motion which was put forward by yourself and and seconded by councillor and a breadman is now perhaps the exact wording might not be clear to us all um well I have councillor dr Richard Williams um but if yours is a point of clarification perhaps which Williams will agree to that coming first yes councillor breadman thank you um but the actual recommendation is to note at number one and number two to confirm and I just wanted to clarify with um Vanessa Blaine whether whether um the minute that we'll say the committee noted the report but we're not happy to confirm at this stage and ask for it to be taken away whether that effectively has the same effect as what as the motion that councillor Heather Williams has suggested yeah I think it does to know and until you're not going to confirm it today because you need further information before you can do that that is the case then I'm quite happy to go with that procedure and I'm I'm happy to withdraw you know on the on the motion because I think if we if we're simply saying as the minutes of this meeting that we're not happy to confirm this and we want further work to be done with it then I'm quite happy that that's that's what will be done okay the other point I wanted to make was that on a site visit with all due respect to the chair the chair doesn't usually manage it but it's actually the case officer who usually does the speaking more because they are simply giving information and often the chair is managing that okay um the that is actually perhaps rather more significant than you may realise you have just withdrawn your seconding of the motion which we were about to take have done that knowingly yes good um and let me make it clear that if I am there as chair I would take guidance from bachelors I put that in plural as to how they should be done our councillor John Bachelor had rather more influence because of course we haven't done many visits in the period since he stood down um but the presentation would of course be by the um by the case officer usually I have no intention of handcuffing members attending or indeed um gagging them but I would of course give firm guidance to members present and to others who wish to make a present and that would be my intention councillor dr Richard Williams um thank you chair just just a a small point really um just to affirm some things that actually have already been mentioned now my councillor Bradnham um I'm sure this was inadvertent but but just to say that the the recommendation is is is confirmed and I think it was suggested that this was just for information of course as a point of principle this committee just to hopefully have this clear and confirmed does control its own procedure and certainly controls um the policy on on site visits it's not something that's given to us that we don't have any say in we do honestly we do not formally have a motion before us at the moment but however it seems to me clear from the committee that we wish to give guidance as to what should be set out in our protocol that we would not as Mr Blaine said be able to confirm it today that we should ask the through development manager to take away the discussion from today and come back with some amendments to reflect that so that can be confirmed at a future meeting however I think we should also make clear that we do not expect that site visits should be suspended until such confirmation is attended and that we are able to continue with site visits in the meanwhile I'm sorry that is slightly different from the motion it was proposed but can I ask where the members are broadly content with that suggestion councillor Heather Williams since it was your motion can I come back to you on that chair what's happening is not is entirely exactly how my motion was so it's just a different method so I'm quite happy it was but we couldn't confirm and then it get brought back that's happening so I think we've set some challenges for the person who will have to write the minutes this discussion but can I take it that we are broadly able as a committee to affirm that councillor dr Martin Carr I'd simply wanted to comment that that the as it's provided that there's nothing to prevent one having site visits for all all all applications because that could be under the control of the director of planning development so I'm actually happy with the condition but that's my personal view is that there should be a site that's in and still are you happy to to affirm yes I'm happy to confirm can we take that my suggestion just now can we take that by affirmation now we're not going to be voting but our members happy with the statement I have made that we will agree that it will reflect on again and brought back to committee yes and that we will confirm this at some future meeting okay everyone happy with that and I think that aligns with your advice on yes right okay um now that was one particular aspect of this report does anyone want to raise any additional aspects of this report or can we leave it at that for now um it's 11 20 can we we have a few more items to deal with can we take a five minute break um which has been requested and then hopefully we may be able to conclude the other items after that is that okay so we'll get back here at 11 25 and I apologise to those online that we had a slightly longer break but we are now live and we're now proceeding to item seven the enforcement report and who have we got online for us here I think John Chutlow John hello welcome uh yes please present your report thank you very much chair good morning chair vice chair members of committee and all officers in the hall apologies if I cough throughout my presentation I'll be quick although COVID only lasts a couple of weeks the ather effects appear to last a lot longer so um so this I'll try and get through it okay what I'm going to do I'm going to share my presentation with you a couple of them uh first of all I'm going to start with appendix one uh hopefully uh you can confirm in the hall that it's up on the screen now yes we can see that thank you thank you very much chair okay so I'll just run quickly through the october and november reports so for october we received 27 new investigations and we are closed 11 cases down and for last month november we received 23 reports and we closed 14 cases down interest interest see how this compares with previous years with regards to the quarterly figures it just confirms that last year 2021 seems to be an outlier in terms of increased planning activity be authorized or unauthorized activity taking place coming out in the pandemic with regards to appendix two and the public enforcement notice is served uh we didn't serve a notice in october however last month we serve an enforcement notice on a change of views of land for i believe to a residential with a someone living in a caravan and I understand that has been appealed as well when that was in the barrington parish what I'd like to do also is just to uh go on to the main body on the report if I may just and again hopefully you can see this on screen now so for uh on 1 december there were 165 open cases in our good district that's a rise from 139 from the two months beforehand updates to service delivery uh be pleased to know that uh our principal planning compliance lead officer christopher braybook will be joining us and starting when we come back from christmas on the third or fourth of january on the jues day so he will be taking up the role of leading the team going forward and when that occurs i'll be able to have to say i'm very happy to say but we will have a full deck of cards concerning number of people in their compliance officer posts so alleged breaches of planning control continue to be reported online alongside the introduction of online information being provided to residents on our web pages as to what constitutes a breaches of planning control with that new information that may actually lead to a slight decrease in the number of complaints being registered on our new e form once people have a look to see what actually a breach of planning control consists of uh this month has seen also the launch of the public online digital planning enforcement register uh this is quite important this has brought the two councils registered together showing notices that go back to 1990 uh and so the copies of notice are also published where available so what you'd normally do you'd find this on the oral webpage we'd normally go when you do your simple planning search for the normal planning applications we now have an additional tab which i've handily highlighted there in red badly uh with enforcements so you can click on the enforcements and put in the address or a reference number and it will show any relevant public enforcement notices breaches of condition notices section 215 untidy land notices that there are on the time so that's uh that will hopefully cut down with regards to number of complaints uh and service requests but our team receives and also our land charges team receive uh particularly regarding house sales and uh the results of any land charges finally the draft k greater came to his shared planning compliance policy that came to you last month committee is now open to public consultation across the next two months and this can be found also just on the south camps webpage and again i'll just share this link with you as well if i may so under the south camps district council webpage under consultations there is indeed the joint planning compliance policy consultation which is uh open for a period of six weeks and will be closing on the 20th of january 2022 uh regarding any comments that you may have uh that's a presentation for now thank you very much chair i'm open to take any questions that members or yourself may have john thank you very much for your presentation and we appreciate you can we talk to us when i feel you're not feeling fully recovered let's hope you're full wish you a full recovery i think we have a couple of questions for you from councillors starting with councillor Anna Bradnham i think thank you chair thank you very much uh john really useful report um just a couple of questions and clarifications please um one is is it possible for a local member to ask whether something is um problematic uh that they might see in their ward rather than actually registering it as a enforcement action as it were you know a sort of genuine complaint because sometimes we don't know if it's just something to be that you're already aware of or um something that we want to drill to your attention so it's sort of can we ask a question and if so do we have to do that through the enforcement tab on the website and the second thing is on that tab where you've got enforcements on the web on the search page can you do can you check enforcement by map can in other words can you search for enforcement action by map or do you have to put in an address on enforcement thank you and i'm sorry isn't shouldn't that be compliance as well i thank you very much councillor i you know i make that mistake all time every single day i'm still referring to myself as enforcement rather compliance i would have its die hard i'm afraid i'll answer your second question first because i've remembered that one uh you should actually i did fail to neglect that what will happen is that when we serve enforcement notices in the future and we've retrospectively done this for the ones we've already served in the past but you can indeed should be able to go on to the mapping system click on uh the parcel of land and within all the planning applications you should be able to go and planning constraints you should be able to click through one by one and at the end there should be details that any enforcement notices serve there should be a little symbol where automatically added on to the the mapping portal when we serve a notice so hopefully feel free to search uh i'll raise that just to make sure that we can search by map but if you have a go and if you find that you can't please come back to me and i will get that as an assorted for you uh with regards to using the e-form for the local member enquiries what we are saying we're trying to move everyone across to using the to using the e-form simply because we will be closing down the generic enforcement email address as of the 1st of February so we are kind of having a service shift across to basically completing the e-form on our on our web page obviously you know names of officers so you know what will we have in i think we'll be having future uh what world area officers so you will know who your local officer is so if members filming client to directly message area to area officers and say hey look you know i've noticed this i've had to look online and i've searched and i've had to look for the planning history and i can't find anything and they've gone and built something and i'm just wondering you know whether this would need permission or not then obviously we can't stop you uh doing that but what we would encourage you to do is have a look at the information available on our web page and try and ascertain those details for yourself and using the planning history as well and when if you feel that you have found something that you know you look at it you thought actually it's probably unauthorised i can't find any planning history of it being granted and you know what most importantly i think it's actually harmful to the area then feel free to report it as a complaint thank you very much that's very helpful thank you have members had reason to use the e-form have any experience with the e-form to report the reason i asked the question sort of is because i have had occasion to use the e-form but it was because i was directed to do so by um a planning officer and um i don't know that i would have found it had i not been given the link by her but also in the situation where i wanted to ask a question is this a permitted use it was a change of use and i wanted to check if that type of use was permitted i wanted to ask the question whereas actually i had i was effectively forced by the form to put it in as a complaint that somebody was using a location in a building for a purpose that i didn't think they'd been approved for i have to add that i submitted my first e-form this morning partly as a trial having taken up a case with the case officer previously only last week to ask whether this was a matter of compliance because i couldn't visit the site you can't get access to the site whether the conditions had been complied with under normal circumstances firstly i had a little bit of difficulty finding the e-form but that is quite usual for me uh i'm not known to be particularly good on it my vice-chair but um i i also would have been not normally reluctant to submit that form because you then have to sign that you um you know responsible for all the all that you've asked i was merely asking a question it makes it seem like a formal complaint at an early stage and as though you're seeking enforcement whereas you may just be seeking clarification as to whether as councillor Bradnham said there's been a change of use that is acceptable or whether there has been compliance with conditions that were set at the time is that i'm just a bit concerned that if you are then getting rid of the regular email address on which these were previously been reported do you think you need to allow a little more time for people to get used to the new system thank you chair i mean we've uh put this back i can certainly take that back to senior officers uh with the suggestions that perhaps there needs to be more than leading time and i know councillor Handley has previously asked at this committee and suggested that we have high level amount of comms regarding this change of service switch and that's something well i've passed on uh hopefully hopefully that it's been it's been successful uh but i do understand that yeah i mean you know sending emails is hard enough for some persons let alone uh finding a link uh to a particular form um i mean look going forward i mean enforcement in what you raised an interesting point about about a soft inquiry what i would say that you know a lot of our a lot of our what we do is entirely that a lot of people members of public will email us and fill in the email form and say hey you know john does this need permission i'm not particularly concerned about it but i have noticed it and it has occurred to me whether this is permitted development not partly because i might like to do that on my own house uh so you get some reasons why people will do this but i'll say it's not a problem submitting the form internally you should just be able to put your name and your email address and that will do you don't have to fill out any external addresses or anything like that you should just be able to put councillor and you know your email address and that should that should be sufficient but we are quite happy to accept uh you know your inquiries through that through that manner councillor Cymru please something completely different i i recently have had a situation um no when i was the last elections i was helping my son who was standing in a different ward and we came across a situation which is regularly occurs whereby somebody's done something which is needs planning permission without applying they started working on it it's been a complaint and then they put in an application to to get planning permission something's already started recently in the last couple of weeks something a similar situation has occurred in my ward but what can happen in both situations is that the workers can after they've put in the application the work has continued so that they haven't stopped and that's both frustrating infuriating for joining people who complain as i can understand whether or not they get permission in the future is prejudging this at the issue now there seems to be little they can do it seems to be a standard tactic to try and delay things it can go on for years marmarat this is the only thing that i understand you can probably do is a stop notice but there's inhibition doing that because it's your cost and liabilities and it's only tends to do in very very extreme cases what provision what can you do about that because it's it's something which i get justifiably um objectives justifiably being infuriated by the fact that what's continuing what what can you do is there any provision other ways that you can deal with this um thank you councillor that is a quite popular and general comment made by everyone regarding the enforcement the way the enforcement system works on the planning system from an enforcement point of view we will always say that it is a the enforcement is a permissive system rather than a system where we take punitive action the system is set up first of all to allow expected applications to come in and we have powers to serve stop notices and temporary stop notices but they have to be expedient we have to reach a level of a significant harm where we feel well actually for building something okay they can put a plan in application in for expected permission however we would only serve temporary stop notice or a stop notice where we feel it most definitely 100% would not get permission and by carrying on building it they are causing harm to the the amenity or to the environment there and then so we take those into judgement so where we where someone starts building something and we let them put an application in it is on a on the provider that they may they may have to take it down at their own cost at some point or b they might not get planning permission because it might be refused at committee for example and we would end up serving enforcement notice of any possible prosecution the non-compliance of the notice what I would say is that in the last couple of weeks there has been a ministerial letter sent out from government whereby there's going to be a consultation being proposed soon regarding the future doubling of retrospective application fees so one aspect is there's good so there's a train of thought or actually people see retrospective applications as a problem even though particularly they're not a problem however in order to kind of boost enforcement service they're looking at whether retrospective applications should should cost double or not the normal applications and that actually will bring them in line in how much an enforcement ground date appeal would cost whereby you have enforcement notice served on you and you appeal underground day that actually it should get retrospective permission so it's kind of bringing it's kind of doubling the fees and try and you know moving people away for saying hey it doesn't cost me doing you know building something and then applying for something so I might as well just go and build it now and see what happens thank you for that thank you and then I think um next question is from dr Richard Williams I think Ike to chair mine was about the forms I think we've moved on from that now somehow we took part over me thank you chair so in relation to the form I think the other thing about removing the email address um I can understand how we could potentially move it from the public to get on to the you know e forms and everything else that's documented but I wonder if there's something internal that councillors can have because we do know relevant officers and we can get in touch but obviously there's annual leave you're going forward January people are doing four rather than five days so people are going to have more time off it's going to get harder to track who is on and when and it's it's a case I find that the majority of planning enforcement cases come to me is because people are concerned about reporting it themselves because it could be a neighbour it could be a neighbour dispute all sorts of things so I find as a local member I only get involved in that case and the form because the forms actually will push people more towards us doing that because you've got to um put your name in you can't just have you know if I've got an email address which you wouldn't necessarily know that that was my email um because if I ever you know if I want junk mail that's where it goes and and people are using those facilities to give themselves an element of anonymity to these things because it can be very stressful for everybody involved including those that are being reported um and I think that it's to remove that internally is going to really make it difficult because we're then going to be filling in this form one of the things is that as chairman has said we have to take responsibility that the information is accurate if it's coming it to us as third hand as as local members I would say more often than not um particularly if you've got sort of 11 villages and eight parishes like I have you don't see the entire thing on a daily basis so it I do feel that um the removal of the email address is going to be premature and even if it's removed from public we should have something as local members to be able to raise things because often they can be urgent as well um and require sort of urgency uh so if we're then gone back to well you know we know John but actually John's offered four days and doesn't get it back and or all these sorts of things I think it's um I I I do feel that we're creating a bit of a hole that that applications could fall in um and also not everyone can use and any form so what provision have we got for those that aren't shall we say silver surfers etc thank you chair John are you able to help us on that uh thank you very much chair and thank you councillor Williams yes I certainly can uh so the last one this been through a equal ops um um kind of process uh if people can't use the internet off the internet it's down uh the more than happy to uh you can actually phone up the contact sensor and the content centre will actually fill in the form on your behalf um so that's one thing and you actually that if that helps someone who feels worried about reporting it actually not doing it directly but by doing it through the contact centre if that gives them any kinds of um uh you know surity about reporting it then I would recommend that they do that I would say all our complainants are anonymous we would get the sack if we went and told people who we investigated old next door went and complained about it and but the problem is even if it does go through councillors such as yourselves that's not going to stop the person thinking now I wonder who who doesn't like me and making their own making their own assumptions so I understand the points that you're making here entirely um but I would say yeah the you know the the form is there the telephone number's there what with regard to councillors making uh requests I am aware that we do uh used a 24-hour call back protocol so you may want to use that method and I know that some councillors have previously used that method where basically they uh submit something to a specialised number or email requesting a 24-hour call back where normally because it's chasing up and residents complaints and the resident hasn't had any feedback at all and it's in the hands of yourselves and you're doing the work for them so you might want to use that. What I will take through to when Chris Braybrooke starts in January I'll raise this matter with him and it may be a case of also you know saying to Chris well you know are you happy for councillors to contact you directly in case that they can't get in contact you know by by normal methods so I'm happy to take that away there's a possible solution to your concerns. Thank you John that's that's very helpful I have to admit I didn't know about the 24-hour call back system I think we should very mind this is a compliance report you may regret telling us about it but this is a compliance report for this month what may be helpful when you've had those discussions is a brief note to councillors not only members of this committee as to how that system may best be used that could take account of experience to date. Councillor Bill Hanley. Thank you chair. Can I make a suggestion that we have a maybe have a workshop or a briefing session for members because I think of all the training sessions I've had since I've been a councillor can't recall having one on enforcement kind of learn the hard way really and you know we're all at the sharp end I mean you know usually get a battered at parish council meetings because someone's stepped over the mark they think you know why isn't enforcement why haven't they acted what you know thrown them in jail and you get stopped in the street as well you know like people saying is that right they're sure that's a breach of condition it would be really good to be able to give authoritative answers to people who are making these accusations managing expectations basically you know if someone says what about condition three that you know they've breached condition three if I can say well yeah but the reason they haven't done it is this it would be really good it'll help you guys as well if we if we're having enough information about us to be able to to answer the basic sorry the basic questions that we get asked if I may chair yeah if I may respond if I may respond chair thank you very much I will more than happy in the next month or two soon a little sooner better rather than later to actually come in person and sit down with councillors or any councillor groups councillors and offer you know one to one question answer session brief training sessions rather than do it virtual you know I'm quite happy to come in and sit down well and take any questions and actually do a briefing and actually produce some kind of briefing notes that you can refer to afterwards if members are available and wish to do that and that's not just the members of the planning committee but all members that's very good off thank you John I don't see any further than I do how could I have underestimated that thank you councillor Bradman thank you very much in John Shuttall's defence can I just point out that he has already run a a compliance briefing for members of all all planning committees which I attended as part of the JDCC some months ago which was very useful but absolutely I would think it's a very good idea if we could do one again because partly because of the change in format and also partly so that there are there are things that it would be useful for us to discuss with you personally one to one that we can raise with you in a meeting in a workshop that would be really helpful thank you thank you chair John no reaction needed to that I think a councillor Martin can simply I wanted to ask you talk about a ministerial consultation upon on the issues is this available for anybody to comment on or is it just for local authorities and and if it is available to anybody or people could you give us the details of the contract would it be possible to circulate the members so that we can respond because it sounds to me something we might well wish to respond on uh thank you very much councillor I'm actually probably giving you news that only you know planning anoracts actually know about uh and and so actually it's not actually four more open consultation checks it's just something that is being muted and being thrown around at the moment as a suggestion but uh as soon as I get any wind of it or then I will quite happily let everyone know I'm sure that the uh off the people objecting to the indications would like to comment and I certainly would want to comment so thank you very much John thank you very much that's perhaps been a rather more complicated presentation of your compliance report than you expected but we appreciate your your guidance on all those additional items and we'll sounds like he's something we'll come back to in due course um councillor Jeff Harvey what has his name done on the list thank you chair I just want to go for um the new features on the um planning portal race of food horsements um have those been communicated to our parish councils because I think you'd be quite interested in that um I will I will take that to our comms people and make sure that I believe they have done because we did list of the parish councils a number of organisations that we'd have to uh notify so it should be in their briefings in their costly briefings but I will make sure and I'll check my own parish as well to make sure that it's in that one uh as well thank you John thank you right I think it's now time for us to move on to the next item which is appeals and I think uh Phil is going to take us through the report that we have on page 31 before us thank you chair uh yes the usual uh appealed report that we have appended to this agenda as of the 2nd of December uh so appendix 1 obviously setting up decisions we've received from the playing spectra at appendix 2 uh appeals uh new appeals were received appendix 3 uh a list of local inquiries and informal hearings that are scheduled appendix 4 uh decisions that are awaited on appeals and appendix 5 finally with uh those pending statements that are due uh I'm happy to take any questions from members if there are any I think we have a question for you from councilor dr Richard Williams thank you very much chair I just had a quick question about um one of the planning inspector cases which was on page 34 the one in full born uh well rather full born road cambridge 21 slash 07720 ut um I was wondering if it's possible I'm quite happy to have it in writing if not in this meeting um just have a little bit of information about that one because I I did have a look at the appeal notice for that and it said that we didn't defend it because the council agreed that the planning application should have been granted which slightly jumped out at me as just what quite had happened there through you chair yeah I did have a brief look at that for myself I've not been involved in it so I don't know the background as to how I got to that point that um I'm happy to uh find out for you what what the um sequence of events was on that okay so I'll come back to my councilor annan Bradman um that was the same question I was going to ask so I'd like to see that answer as well please uh perhaps that could be circulated to the committee if you're writing back thank you Phil um the committee will have noticed I'm sure that appendix 3 page 37 um there is an appeal against the planning decision made by this committee in the case of the former hotel phoenix and the hearing set for end of January I think right any more councilor Heather Williams thank you chair can I just check your night reports of that in relation to the former hotel phoenix and the others and that we are planning to defend all these appeals and have adequate resources to do so through you chair yes uh hotel phoenix inquiry is obviously proceeding at the end of January we're currently in the process of preparing proofs of evidence to defend that our statement of case was submitted last week and we had a meeting with the inspector yesterday I believe it was a conference with obviously our side and the current side so yes we are obviously proceeding with that thank you and councillor annan Bradman I think you had a further question thank you this is with regard to appendix 3 um under the informal hearings learned to the north of the old cold yard chesterton fenrodd milton uh I would also like I'm glad that is going to be coming to a hearing but uh I'd also like to alert you that I'm concerned about land to the west of the old cold yard uh chesterton fenrodd milton which I have raised with enforcement officers in the past and I'm not sure any action is being taken but I will ask a question separately about that thank you right so I think no response required at this time on that I think that brings us to the end of our open meeting um the next item I have for you is a um proposal to exclude the press and public um which is necessary to allow us to hear item nine can I have a proposal to that effect councillor Henry bachelor and I see that being seconded by councillor Motton Cymru can I take