 I'd like to say something about ethno-nationalism because it's one of the characteristics of this dark time. Maybe as a result of the fact that we're living in an age of unprecedented global migration with 65 million people on the move, there is now a renaissance of fantasies of homogeneity. More and more nations are coming to believe that they should live only with and among people like themselves. It's a fantasy because there never is a community homogenous enough to constitute what we mean by a nation. When European nationalism was first started in the late 18th and early 19th century, it began with an idea of a perfect fit that there is a state and there is a nation. The borders of the state should be the borders of the nation and every nation would be incarnated by a state and it would all be very neat. The problem was that it was never neat and they developed this thing that became known in the early 20th century as the problem of minorities because there were always people within the homogenous community who were heterogeneous until finally there were people who came to two conclusions. One, they don't need to live among people like themselves to be themselves. They just need to be free. And two, there is no greater source of social conflict and state conflict than the fantasy of perfect homogeneity. And what I failed to understand... But who has this fantasy? You do. I've never come to know. You do. I have a concept. I have a concept of a people in German folk living in a country, in a nation state, in a territory. But I know it has never been totally homogenous like say kind of whatever marbles in the little bag that are totally all green or all blue. It's not a technical concept. Then why are you worried about the immigrants? Because... What are they stealing from you? No, they are not stealing anything from me, but I strongly believe that it is a people that has to be almost and are mostly homogenous. Well, here we go. Well, for sure. Not totally. Being totally homogenous is a fantasy. This is stupid. It's kind of a technical concept. But excuse me, if you look... We have historical experience here. If you look at the history of the treatment of minorities by nation states, it is true in theory that you can have a state in which you have a large homogenous population and then a small minority or minorities. Sometimes it works. But if you look at the... Wait, wait. Experience has shown us that people who are excited by the folk and who are excited by people like themselves generally wind up losing tolerance or worse with the minorities with whom they live. So why wouldn't it be easier and more just and more moral to simply rely upon a pluralist democracy in which everyone who lives in the country has the same rights and each community can flourish according to its power? Okay, so I have one last question to you, Mr. Vizetir. This is... Why is Israel an exception from this? You see, first you bring up the Mossad, now you bring up Israel. Because I'm interested in your answer because every nation state must disappear. The great problem that faces Israel right now. Oh, I don't think Germany should disappear. No, no, no, I'm all for nation states. But I think that the nation that lives within the state should be conceived heterogeneously, not homogeneously. I'm not for the discipline. I think the nation state is here to stay and it's probably a good thing. The problem that Israel is facing is that Zionism in some ways imported the European idea of nationalism, this theory of the perfect fit. And then the Israelis discovered, the Jews of Israel discovered, not only that they are before 67, that there were Arabs living in their midst. And after 67, as a result of a war of self-defense, not of a war of conquest, that there were millions of Palestinians living, if not with them, then right alongside them. And the problem that you're facing is, I tell my Israeli friends, that's the problem that they're facing. And at some point they will have the same choice that European countries will. They will either become multi-ethnic and pluralistic, or they will become fascist and homogeneous. Those are the only two possibilities.