 We have run about 30 minutes for a discussion, but we don't want to do it just the three in front But I would like to invite all of you to to ask questions and then give comments but first of all, I would like to invite Jessica to Briefly react on Unis. Yeah, talk. Yeah Just open some water First of all, I think your talk was fantastic because this is something that was really You know who's been on my mind a lot, you know, obviously having been a teacher before and Also having taught big data in Kufstein. So primarily on the topic of ethics and I think I think what's really interesting is that with your talk is that the importance to shed light on these issues because We're at a point where we have this amazing technology But it's always important to see how that relates to the kinds of laws that are operating in different contexts at the moment Obviously, there are a lot of American ed tech companies that are operating in the European space and there are different laws and regulations in place With McGraw-Hill then there is a data governance council that was set up in order to address these kinds of issues Because it's so complex and I was actually just introduced to this recently and I think that Your point that you are saying which was we should be aware of these issues so that we do not hinder innovation, however, it's important to not go forward blindly Yeah, and that I completely agree with this because in terms of Informing the not only the teachers, but also the students themselves what Where that data is going how it's used and and also if it's shared, you know in terms of McGraw-Hill it's not shared with the third party and The main aim is to improve the learning outcomes of the students and the teachers But I'm absolutely with you that there should be this Cautious nature around what's being developed in terms of innovation and it shouldn't just be yes innovation is the way forward Blind, you know, so that's my reaction on that Thank you very much. I Have in a way the same question to both of you you both were talking about Possibility of teachers to have more freedom to have more possibilities to to create Learning activities and learning environments and in a way, it's a feeling that both data protection regulations, but also data-driven decisions can Well can can attack this freedom of teachers for example you Mentioned the classroom and then you told us how The students can work with your system and that they get tutor within the system and The more you were stalking the more the teacher Disappeared, so it looks like I have Learning there's a digital learning environment at home And I can do everything at home and then I go to school and have a teacher For what reason anymore? So the one question and on the other hand when when you're talking and say well, we have We we need data protection regulations if you have more and more regulations and you have to ask teachers and students all the time for for Well to agree to something does this Lock teachers in at the same time, so you can start. Yeah, so great question and it's very important the role of teacher is fundamental to the learning process and The importance that I showed of the the learning Digital learning product. I think that I wanted to really Show the kind of a peak Perhaps make it a bit more transparent about the learning science behind the products So that's why I was very focused so much on the product But in terms of how it's used that's something that actually is really being worked on at the moment In terms of consultancy because the the products I mean, I'm sure some of you have probably had learning products at home when you were growing up at school or perhaps you used at University Or beyond University with MOOCs and so on and it's it's only one aspect of it You know, it's and it's I think the way in which we are teaching and learning is going is going undergoing huge reform at the moment and it's about How what role does that technology pay, you know, that's the kind of questions that you were raising Is it central to the learning experience or is it just an add-on if it's just an add-on then is it really necessary? And probably not so how can we create those kinds of blending learning environments where we do use the tools that are out There in terms of the innovation but the central importance is always the teacher and the student and How is that? Technology informing the learning process so that the student and the teacher can then create better more interactive learning environments I mean for example when I was At some schools then a lot of you know, the teachers were saying particularly with girls They're struggling with mathematics not because of their way of learning but because of their confidence And if for example, that's one of the things about the adaptive learning is that it helps you with the metacognition So it says okay If you are not confident, please let us know you let the system know and then it brings you back more content of the same thing And so the girls in this particular Circumstance were able to practice a bit more and therefore gain confidence so that when they got into the classroom Then they were like I know this Okay, so it's about how can we use that technology for the learning environments not here's the technology Let's forget about a teacher Okay Thank you and the other side of the metal. How can or is there a risk that that regulations Can can narrow the freedom of teachers if if we look at those legislation efforts in in America and the US To to address the risk of the student data We see that one of the solutions solutions would just to provide more opportunities For notice and for consent for two parents now as you were saying before this may This may block a little bit the educational process because I would need the Consent of each parents to every step of the way Okay, it can be it can slow the process of course and it can be quite a burden for the teacher to End out papers all the time to sign for it, but it can be done Different way it can be it doesn't have to be that particular to every new situation to to get a consent it can be that First of all as I was saying it can be a personalized privacy policy. So a parents can Choose what everyone's to do with the data. Okay, does he agree to share it and which kind of data? And it can also be at the beginning of the year. It doesn't have to be all the time So we need to find this kind of balance between This need to get an informed a really informed consent. Okay, that really understand in a transparent way What are the possible uses of the data that we are sharing? but on the other end we don't want to hinder and to damage the process by By telling the teacher to end out all the time papers and agreements all the time, okay? It will make it to make education law eventually Yeah, no, I was just I what came to my mind was when You know during the courses that I ran with my charity then we had this on a very kind of low-tech level of The media release forms, you know And this was really important to hand over to the students the media release forms Do you want your children to be photographed? or filmed because often the film was used as a way of learning right and Some of them didn't which is totally fine And then I was talking with the people who filmed and I said right you have to be careful because they don't want to Be filmed and it didn't hinder any any kind of learning process Yeah, but this is when when you were filled for one time two times three times a year, okay? We are talking about an ongoing filming that is happening all the time because when you collect data You're actually filming the students all the time. So it's not like to To request consent for two times three times a year. This is the educational process itself. Okay, it's like You are teaching through the camera. Yeah So this is a different I would like to to Ask this question in slightly different way again, I totally agree when you say we need a consent between Educational institutions the providers of the systems and then parents but what happens if some Parents disagree and then if there is no consent, what does that mean exactly and then what? does that mean in The context of social justice so if if I don't have a consent for example in a school Does it mean I don't use the systems exactly and then they are only used by students Where parents can afford them to buy them privately? Yes, of course Yep, of course it would be to be ridiculous to have a classroom that only part of it can use These digital platforms and the other side cannot okay This is one of the reason why I suggested the personalized data use policy so and I'm sure that they can do it at the company. They can do it. They can let you Use the platform under your with some limitations your conditions. Okay, okay? if it will lead eventually to the result that only certain Children or children's students will be able to use and the other ones will not This is a problem that should be addressed also No, I mean, I think it's I think it's an interesting point I mean, there are two different things that like you know, you mentioned about affording and consent I think there are two separate issues that you know whether a student or parents can afford the technology or whether the The parents and the students consent to it You know in terms of affordability then I think that is a very strong issue That needs to be looked at in terms of where the money is coming from is it coming from the institutions? Which is the ideal? But only when it's been identified that this would Advance or enhance the kind of learning spaces that the teachers and the students are looking for so therefore It needs a lot of market research Which is slowing down the process But I think that's good because you know it's better to slow down the process to go Straightforward without thinking so doing a lot of research about the needs of the students the needs of the teachers And if it fits if it doesn't fit then it's not it's not appropriate and you know, then of course you can decide whether it's Important to invest in that technology or not and in terms of like whether The students then some of the students or some of the teachers decide or not decide that's a really good issue Because if not then how can we create a diverse learning space? And what kind of dynamic would that bring about it might bring about an interesting dynamic? It might not and these are questions I think we need to be aware of when we go into using ed tech in the learning space Thank you Well, I would like to invite you to ask your questions. If there are any I would have some More but Just a second. I think we have a microphone for you Hi hi Max Grafenstein and my researcher at the Alexander von Humboldt Institute So I just would like to know if you take the example of the in bloom disaster so How do you avoid that now? So if you try to sell your products in particular in Germany and you know that Germans or in Germany there is a Yes, there's this German angst in particular for data protection risks So do you have a strategy to tackle this? You mean attack to tackle the angst or yeah? Good question. I mean if you if you want to sell your products here on the market. Yeah, I mean Yeah, it's good question. I think that What's important in Germany it operates very different from the rest of Europe I have colleagues who are in Amsterdam who are in the Scandis and we always discuss, you know How different it is here and I actually enjoy working here because of that reason because The cautious nature in which you approach education. I think is really a Model for the rest of Europe because it's important to see okay you go into an institution whether it be a higher education institution or a school and you talk with the teachers and of course that angst comes up and You develop this communication with them about that technology. What does that technology involve? What kind of data is it and then I'm feeding that back to the product team and I just yesterday I was in Madrid and I was talking to the product team in Spain about these issues And he says these are really good issues that you're bringing up Maybe we should feed it back to the American team So I think it's a dialogue, you know and that dialogue cannot I mean these kinds of Tech Products cannot be developed in isolation. They are for the students They are for the teachers if they are in developed in dialogue then we can move forward in the right way and I think Germany is quite a leader in terms of Let's say bringing to light these issues, you know, they're not afraid to so I think it's a good thing Okay, so it's an interesting part of you. I wouldn't have it beforehand. Okay Other questions Those issues that you're talking about about Germany being concerned about are those as I was talking about That isn't in human rights or in pedagogical concerns of Are these products really useful or do we really need those products? I think it's both. Yeah, so a lot of as you said like a lot of the Lecturers, they say do we do we need this? What's actually as a result of the feedback that we've got from the lecturers and the students we're actually developing a new product That's more custom Made for the students and the teachers so which means that we don't build the product and then go into these institutions and deliver It it's about what do you need? What are the? Privacy issues what are the data issues now? Let's try and have this dialogue and build the product with you and That gives more control to the institution and yeah, it's cool based or is it? This is it's a very new product that's actually being developed in schools in higher ed and also in companies so I think You know to answer your question then it's about pedagogy, but also then the the rights issue and Yeah, so that was for me How Teachers able to to customize this product so you say you you develop it in dialogue with teachers But is it at one state? It's finished and then it's given to our do I have as a teacher? There's a possibility to to customize it Yes, and how much do I have access to to the data in the background and this raises a question of discrimination of students maybe or So this is two questions because in in your talk you say well, there's always a risk of human arrows. Yes, and then if I give a Lot of data and even your small data in the head of one teacher can be big data in a way You know what I mean, so how do you deal with this? possible Arrow yeah, so there are two kind of separate questions that I'll just answer the latter in terms of discrimination of Students, this is a really good point and something that I got quite interested in when I looked at big data and the predictive analytics You know which you also brought up. I think that you One must be all all almost very cautious about the way in which it's predicting So for example if a student is you mentioned at risk. Yeah that in itself should be taken as it is The data is predicting that it is not looking at the social environment factors it's not looking at how the student is with the teacher or the school environment and It it is information and it can inform certain factors But it's not an absolute and that's something that I think I'm not sure of how that can be communicated a bit more But I think that in terms of when a tech companies are working with the students with the teachers Then that needs to be at the outset laid out that this is only information and that you yourselves need to create that dialogue With the students to understand why is that happening and maybe they might have more information themselves? So it's an information tool in terms of You mentioned how much to how much control do they have? So yeah, again, this is a very new way of working and it's come about from the kinds of environments like in Germany and It's based on the idea of instructional design Which is quite popular in the States. It's also you know research is being done here for example at the LMU and That instructional design is at the forefront of the development of the product and that instructional design is done with the institution whether it be the school with the Students and with the teachers and I'm very excited about this because it's more dialogical and then the data is Communicated a bit more with the the teachers and the students Well just to hand this question also to you the question of the human arrow Can can you can you deal with this is it at least? possible to deal with with regulations with this human aspect of making arrows First of all, it's a bit funny that humans make error, but algorithms do not make okay Now I think that the human error in I mean in prediction for example, okay to predict Yeah, so I'm not sure that if if a teacher Receives a visualization or a report about the students I'm not does he have any discretion at all to decide. Oh, absolutely It does yeah, but does it really have discretion because if you target an example and identify student as at risk Okay, so I would say okay. This is what the computer says Okay, he decided this student is at risk So it might as well be at risk, but he's at risk and this can make teachers It can Make them not to not activate a discretion just because of the report just because the algorithm said something Okay, so I'm saying okay. This is something that the algorithm says it has nothing I have nothing to do with it anymore Okay, this also shifts the educator's role. Okay. What am I? I'm only The speaker of the algorithm was only the speaker of the for the report. Yeah, it's a huge danger And I think that's something that is you know, it's like the ethics of algorithm, right? And I I'm fully for developing when you're Developing the instructional design with the teachers and the students Bringing ethics into play, you know saying okay, what does what do these kinds of analytics mean? What do they tell you they only tell you part of the story? They don't tell you the full story. And so if you take them as being full story, then it's bound to Go in a different direction than if you take a holistic approach And that's why I think it's so important for this dialogue between the product development and The students and the teachers rather than it just being okay. Here's the technology that will solve your problem Yeah, but when the product is already ready, okay, and we out on the market other teachers will use it, okay, and then Is this software recommendation or is it the decision? I wouldn't know because I wasn't part of the process Yeah, because I do receive eventually you cannot Custom-made a product to each for each teacher or each students so it will be replicated Yeah, you sorry. Yeah, I think that's it's really interesting question how to Enable teachers to to continue this dialogue you you doing this with teachers by while you are developing the tools to to the classroom and when teachers not in direct contact with you and I think it's a question how to Support teachers to use those products and it's not just a technical question So to teach them how to use technology, but it's more Question to teach them or to support them to to use the information and then to use them to to create a dialogue so it's an issue of Personal development of teachers as well. So it's not just to bring it to school then tell it but also to Develop teachers to use it. Yeah I mean, it's a little bit like social media like you know the social media the technology is there and then you know I was teaching young girls about how to use social media Not okay, you must do it like this and you must do it like that But just to be aware that there are tools that and you can use them in a way that perhaps might damage Their peers themselves Put themselves at risk or they can be aware of the risks and be more informed to make their own decisions And with the analytics then you have the information that they can be used as a standalone and oh This person is at risk and therefore we're not going to let them into this school Or it can be used to identify. Okay. This person looks like they're struggling on a particular learning objective What are the reasons for that? Is it because I made like the teacher made the the learning objective too difficult because you can Actually decide on the learning objectives through the system So do I need to like put the level lower or is it something to do with the way that the student is learning? And let's have a dialogue about this so I agree. There is an absolute risk And it's about how that technology is used. I think technology itself is neutral You know in a way we come back to you to your question of Consent so it's not only a question to have a content at At the beginning to use data in a this or that way But it's also to well to to continue the discussion Discussion about this content how to to interpret data All the time and then again and again and between students and teachers and maybe parents Okay Do we have any other questions? Over there. Yeah with with the glasses Okay, and I'm Isabella Herman. I'm working for the Contra that in our foundation and I have a question Going also in the direction of consent Because let's just imagine there was a company like a third party like what was the name in bloom? And and this company Would be accepted, right? So there would be this problem actually that maybe using algorithms students are In danger of being Kind of so if they what failed once and they have no Possibility to develop anymore, right? This is what you what you kind of said Or that you kind of in this in this direction and then you have no possibility And to improve yourself again because then you are in this you are labeled kind of because you you failed So but there might be another problem because actually if if there Was some consent needed and then some people say okay, and I don't I don't want this I don't want my my data to be collected and you have two parts. So one part of the students Consent to the system and the others not so would you say there is also risk for their future life because actually you Could sell this data to companies and then you're kind of suspicious, right? Because why why doing this person consent? So what what does this person have to hide and the others and the others are kind of yeah, you're Everyone can see what you achieved or what you succeeded in and then you might be interesting for for other companies So would you say this is another another risk that you're excluded or marginalized In the whole career working space progress Okay, we have another question. Maybe we just collect a little bit and then then we have a last answer round Hello, my name is Ike Graf and I have been a student myself not too long time ago and Well, I will try to have a rather brief question because that was a rather complex one I would be very curious to know about the reasons when schools refuse to work with you I imagine you are approaching institutions What are the reasons they are giving you for not wanting to work with you and the second one is in your presentation you were kicking off with small data as Allegedly your method and I would like to know if you were Ready to settle for big enough data and Well, yes, if you would be ready to settle for big enough data as the basis for your tool because otherwise I would be very surprised about the Element in your presentation where you were talking about data-driven decision-making and I would like to hear just more on how you would talk about small data and this of course very focused data you presented and Which decisions later on are based on that data and if those decisions are only applied to Adapting your tool improving your tool or also which kind of tasks or Encouragements are fed back to the students Okay, so the two Maybe we start with a short one with you and then we go over to the second okay So in terms of your first question to do with schools what are the reasons for refusing to work with us? In my experience then the reason In my experience then the reasons have been regarding content So at the moment then the content Yeah, unfortunately, it's not really to deal with data, but that's just my experience it's more about the the lack of adaptive content for schools because most of the adaptive content has been developed for a higher education and And also because a lot of the rights of the content are being held in the US and so There is an issue about we need to develop more content for K-12 That's that's been the major refusal in my experience. I'm sure that my colleagues has probably experienced something else and Yeah, I can only speak from experience unfortunately in terms of the the small data and I think I understood the question Is it something about? Which decisions are them bringing back what kind of content in that small data is that right or is it something more? That was one of my questions. Yeah Just wondering if you could just clarify. I admit that I could have done better at being clear with this question So if you want to stick to The point that you are using small data as the basis for developing your tool I would like to know if The element of data-driven decision-making that you had on your slides Refers to using this small data that is collected from the students to improve the tool in the future or also To come to decisions about the students parkour for example, are they Evaluated as being rather weak or rather strong on the basis of that small data Which I imagine are then their level of confidence they indicate or their Relation of correct answers as compared to incorrect answers because that in my opinion Still is creating a profile and then we have in my understanding an activity of profiling which is very much linked to big data and big data analytics and Which of course has the risk of German angst coming back to you And so I might as well ask does relabeling your tool a small data work for you in Germany as A way to make people less afraid of you Okay, now I get it. All right. Thank you for that was the background to my question But I'm still curious about the core of the question sure sure sure is it only used to improve your tool? Or does it affect the students and the evaluation? Mm-hmm. Okay, great now. I understand. Thank you So yeah in terms of the small data then the way in which the decisions are made then and the kind of content it brings back Of course, it brings back the content that is in the so for example, we're publishing We originally were a publishing company changed for a learning science company Which means that the content that is being fed back is based for example with smart book Then the content is based on the particular book You know the content of the book and so for example if a student is struggling with a particular learning objective then the content that is fed back is what is in the digital book so to speak right and It's not about okay. The student is weak because they Do not answer the question correctly or that their Metacognition their confidence level is is low It's not saying okay. This student is weak It's saying how can we improve or how can we give the student more opportunity to understand the concept or the learning? objective that is in that material and the way that is done is that I Mean I showed you a little bit like the knowledge space. So you enter from different aspects and so, you know one student may find that the learning objective this learning objective is Better to learn to enter from this type of material and the algorithm feeds back the content that suits that particular knowledge of The the diagnostic knowledge of that student, but it's never saying you are weak You know, it's not profiling that student as you know at Risk so to speak. I know that's being used in the US quite a lot But that's not really the the aim of the program It's more to actually give the student the better chance to learn differently. I mean, you know I learning mathematics at school. I did it completely different from everybody else Yeah, and without the adaptive learning program then I was seen as a weak student, but in fact, I was just different so Yeah, sorry, I hope that answers your question. It didn't really relate to the angst, but okay Okay, and then finally I would give gives the question from over there to to you the If I remember right it was a question of labeling but more there's a question if People don't agree don't have a concept and then then they don't use the system May be a risk for the future and how can can regulations use that This problem that you were talking about it. It's generic The same in most fields in the digital age For example, you don't want your employer or a potential employer to have Access to your Facebook account But on the other end if you do not have a Facebook account, you will think what's wrong with this guy Doesn't have a Facebook, okay, so But consent is only One one bolt one one principle in the old In the overall data protection regime. It's not only about consent as I was saying earlier It doesn't have to be on or off Another principle can be access to data so you can't consent to the collection and to share your information and to Share your personal data, but you should also be provided with Receive the right to access this data if you know exactly It's the student or his parents what has been collected so far and you should have the ability To change this data. So for example, if in the fifth grade you used to abstain a lot, okay Well, you had I don't know certain problems because your parents got divorced or whatever and Eventually you don't get accepted to to Harvard. Okay, just because in the fifth grade You should be able to know that this is one of the reasons, okay? And now the solution is not concerned the solution in this regard should be Access to data and ability to change data and ability to update data and ability ability to know what's been Collected and you know what not even what's been collected But what kind of profile has been built because you can have access to all this kind of data, but without having without understanding what's been built Yeah Good answer on the one hand on the other hand it it raises a lot of questions but but we don't have the time to ask all these questions, but One last question. Okay Hello, my name is Shahid. I I'm a business intelligence analyst and I am an algorithm developer. I Have worked in different segments of education telecom and e-commerce My question is for both of you one question How are you managing the content creation cycle? That's a big question because at the end of the day, it's all about content distribution and how efficient and Personalized it is to help in the learning curve of any student at any level and it kind of Includes another dynamic complexity that is the level of learning for example some student in grade 8 has a different level of Consuming the information and somebody at grade 5 has a different conceptual understanding so how are you managing that and What is your feedback loop for the interaction of the student with the platform? So once the student interacts with the platform how it's being feedback in the whole system that other students can get benefit out of his interaction and my question for you regarding data privacy is that if Your concept of personalized data privacy is very nice but if all the if the company commits that all the information that we are going to collect from the users would only be used for educational content recommendation and kind of personalized learning and all of that and it won't be used for any commercial ads or Things like that. Does it satisfy? the overall data privacy paradigm issue that we are facing either in US or in Europe So, yeah One last brief answer very brief. Okay. Okay Shall I start okay? So in terms of how is the data being fed back into the system? This is a very good question, and I think it's about going back to This kind of variety and the velocity and the volume It's obviously the volume has been collected for many years and on different learning objectives by thousands and thousands of students and then it informs the system how That content is being understood. There is always if you go to the the learn smart book Then there is always a point in where you can actually challenge the answers So and that's something that's also really important because the students may themselves have another Perspective on the content and then this feeds back into the product and the author because it's a publishing company then the the answers that being are being fed back are then The understanding not the actual specific data itself, but the understanding of how those students are interacting with the content is You know it creates a basis for the authors to then develop their content further, right? and That how the content creation cycle is working how we're managing that Yeah, difficult difficult question, maybe yeah, just a quick clarification on that. Do you mean? I'm not sure what you mean by that then maybe maybe Just because we're running a little bit out of time. We can transfer this question to the third part of the evening and Give you the possibility to answer So I'll divide my answer into two parts. I'll do it short, but divided into two parts first of all with all those stories about data leakage and about breach of of security data security I'm not sure if you can trust now if even if they obligated that data will not be shared I'll take this one. Okay, but leave this aside I think that the main point about my presentation and my talk earlier was that it's not all about Flow of information. It's not all about whether a net the company shares the information or whether it sells us advertisements It's also about other rights or other Objectives that should be fulfilled such as I did it intellectual privacy I think the concept of intellectual privacy And I do recommend everyone to read near Richard's book about intellectual privacy This is not about sharing data or about transferring data. This is about Limiting or maybe adjusting How data is being collected? So and no, I will not I will not be satisfied by an obligation or a Commitment not to share data. This is only a start. Okay in the US. This is what what's been happening for the last three years or so There was the pledge the student privacy pledge and many diverse State level and federal level Legislation most of them did address the issue of flow of information Okay about limiting the vendors ability to share it with force parties Okay with the other parties, but it's not all about this and this is why the mounting Debate about student privacy or student data use is still going on even though there are many Many wide range Legislate legislation that's already been enacted California. For example, you have several laws that are pending So it's not all about this that it won't be satisfied Okay Thank you very much and we are now moving to the third part of the evening because there are many questions to Discuss and to ask and maybe you you will talk to each other. I would like to thank you Jessica White and Johnny I come on for your interesting talks and for the discussion and I would like to thank you for your questions and for your time and Finally, I would like to thank the Alexander von Humboldt Institute Institute for Gesellschaft Internet and the Vodafone Institute for Society and communication for making it possible tonight and to give us a chance to move to the third part of the of the event and to discuss all these questions with the students, I guess over there So just join us. Thank you