 me welcome you. Thank you. Thanks so much for joining us today for another amazing episode of the nonprofit show. If you joined us for the green room chatter or yesterday's episode, you might have heard that we are a daily show. That is true every single weekday. We are right here for you. And today we are excited to have our Jeff, our guest with us today are Jeff, Jeff Trifles joining us. Jeff is the senior partner at Veritus Group and we are just so excited to have you talking about the nonprofit workplace toxicity. If it exists, what exactly it entails, how we might be able to identify work within it and correct it. So before we get into the deep dive conversation, we of course want to make sure that you know who we are. If we haven't met you yet, Julia Patrick is here just as she is every single day. Julia is the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. And this is her brainchild. So three years ago, she had this wonderful idea that said, let's go on live to be of service to our community. We'll last about two weeks as will the pandemic and here we are three years strong. I'm Jarrett Ransom, very grateful to serve alongside as your co host each and every weekday for the last three years in the 452 episodes. And we could not do this without our presenting sponsors. We are so extremely grateful to have their commitment and their investment not only here in the broadcast and these episodes, but truly in you and your communities throughout the globe and everything in which you are striving to achieve because these companies exist with one main focus and that focus is you and your mission. So please do check them out. Not right now, but in about 27 minutes, you will have plenty of time to check them out because we want to make sure that you hear all that Jeff has to share with us today. And I missed a previous episode with you, Jeff. So let me just say welcome back. Thank you. It's great to be here with both of you. I'm excited. Well, we're excited to have you on because, you know, the new year brings on so many new attitudes and new goals. We have this great resignation that we're really laboring through, no pun intended. And a lot of times we hear this toxic workplace description, but we don't really say what that means and how it impacts us truly. And it's not enough just to say it's toxic. We need to understand why and how do we navigate it? So I'm really excited to have you on to talk about this and to really explore. So first and foremost, this like toxic green Yeah, leads and begs the question. What the heck is a toxic workplace to find that for us? Well, I would go back. One of the things that I see in almost every toxic workplace in the nonprofit space is when the when the nonprofit leaders or those that created that nonprofit are only focused on the external mission of that nonprofit, meaning whatever they're doing to change the world program as another way of saying that. And they forget their own people, their staff and donors. And when I when a nonprofit only focuses on just getting that mission out, that's where I start to see the toxic toxicity of that organization start to evade, invade the the organization. Because what happens then is people, their staff and their donors are secondary to everything and they get mistreated from the very beginning. Okay. And now moving into three years, I don't think I've heard anyone say that. Yeah. And that's valid. You're right, Jeff. And and when I hear of this, I immediately think there's so many organizations that started with a passion to help provide the community problem and not necessarily the wherewithal of customer service, donor stewardship, workplace environments, retaining, as I like to say, our rock star talent and our staff. So how do we address this? Because you're right, every organization starts with a founder and if they're lucky enough, they move beyond that founder. Right. But so how do we build this culture that we can eradicate toxicity? Well, I think we have to acknowledge that the mission when you're a nonprofit is not just about whatever you're doing to change the world. It also includes everyone that's a part of that organization. So your mission is to your staff and creating a workplace that is life giving where your donors or where your employees and your donors feel joy in what they're doing with your organization. And so it really starts, you know, if you're in this toxic organization, it really starts with leadership kind of stepping back and going, have we lost our focus here? That are, you know, we started with this great idea, we wanted to change something, there was a wrong that we wanted righted. But in the in the in the doing so we forgotten that also the people that are doing this with us, and the donors that are supporting this cause are just as important. And that's when we lose it. And if we lose that, that's when you start seeing all the toxic toxicity in a workplace come. So what happens other other signs that I see in the workplace is a focus on just getting the money. We see this all the time where the leadership is just about I don't care how you do it. Just go out and get the money. I don't care about building relationships. It's all about just the focus on getting that revenue in because we have all these things we have to do, right? And so gimme, gimme, gimme, you know, yeah, it's all about that. And then another big one is for staff. There's no clear boundaries. So you often hear of nonprofits who have people who are like a major gift officer, but they're also out, you know, doing the doing doing the events. They're also about getting a board member at the airport. I mean, I've heard all kinds of crazy things where staff don't really have a specific job description. And they're doing all kinds of things and they're lost. And that's another another sign that there's a bad thing going on in the nonprofit. And then we look at a lack of management, I would say. I would say in the nonprofit space, management is not looked upon as a as a ideal. Their management is nice to have, but it's not necessary. But we all know that having a good manager is crucial to keeping people to growing people. Managers help set structures and boundaries and is a cheerleader for their people. But if you don't have an emphasis on management, which many nonprofits don't, because they got to get the money, or they got to do the program. And they're not thinking about the development of their people. And so this is why we see the great exodus, not just in the for-profit, but also in the nonprofit sector as well. Yeah. It's interesting because one of the things that Jared and I talked a lot about is the opportunity for education across this country. We're seeing more and more universities offer nonprofit management degrees and course tracks. And that used to be something that was like, no, you need to have passion first. And I think more of us to your point are saying, no, we need to know how to manage so that we can achieve our goals. And it's just not all about passion. So it's a very interesting thing. You're exactly right. I mean, the number one reason why people leave their job is because they didn't like their manager or their manager was abusive or something happened with man. They left the manager, manager, not the mission. They love the mission. I don't know how I've received so many emails from major gift officers, mid-level officers, development directors who said, I love what we do, but I can't take my boss anymore. They're so heavy handed. They're not available. I can't do this anymore. So that's the step. Managers, we need a new emphasis on valuing management in nonprofit space. Well, and I was going to add one of the signs that I see as well, Jeff, is really, and I'm going to approach it a little differently or just use some different vernacular is so too often our sector has been prideful and boastful about doing so much with so little. And that is that scarcity mentality. And it's also the same when it comes to our workforce to say, look at what we do with this skeleton crew, right? Like when you work in the nonprofit space, the culture is boastful about saying you will do everything that all other duties as assigned will work you to the bone. And it was really just kind of one of those acceptance, which is becoming unacceptable. And we are seeing it across the nation, across the globe. And you're right, Jeff, not just within our nonprofit sector. This is touching everyone because we are humans. Yes. Yeah. And that also goes back to our unhealthy value to what we around overhead. Because we think in the nonprofit space, that overhead has to be so small, such a small percentage of the overall revenue and cost of the organization. And so when you have that emphasis, that you're trying to keep overhead so low, you won't value management because management is an overhead cost. And program, you know, that's what you're doing, you're doing all of that. And so there's as more, there's more emphasis on program less on support staff, on fundraising, we try to keep it as low as possible. So keep the salaries low, keep, you know, no assistance, all of these things. And that leads to toxic environments as well. It does. Let's talk about that in terms of you're getting now kind of into what the impacts are and understanding it's not just using that word toxic. I mean, it has like, it can be defined and it can be measured. What are some of these impacts that you're seeing? Well, you know, with major gift officers and mid level officers, what I'm seeing is they're leaving all the time. And so the problem here obviously is, those are the people that are trying to develop relationships with donors, right? You can't do that if you're moving out of an out of your position and moving on to somewhere else every 15 to 18 months. And so revolving door. And nonprofits, many of the leadership doesn't understand they won't keep good people, because all kind, you know, they got to keep their overhead low. So they want to pay them enough. Or they're so big that they get caught into the big HR, you know, system of the nonprofit. In fact, I just, I just talked to a major gift officer who was at a pretty large organization. And she was being under she was being paid under market value as a major gift officer. And I want to tell you, this major gift officer was a rock star. I mean, always, always ahead of our goals, consistently year over year, just effervescent, just the kind of person you want in your workplace. And so she asked if she could get up to market value, which in her area was around $8,000 more. Okay. Well, the, the leader of the organization got together with HR. And the answer back was, you know, you're really good, but, you know, we have these levels, and you're not at this level yet. So therefore, your pay can't go above this level, or else it's not fair to somebody else who's in a different, you know, department. And here was someone who's this is a revenue generating position, right? And for $8,000, this other this person found another job at another organization, even though this person loved the mission of this organization, and they lost her. And they lost the relationships that she had worked on building all those relationships. And the donors were devastated because she was so good with that. Right. And so not only are they potentially going to lose revenue from those donors, but the cost to replace somebody like that is so high that they're not thinking, they're not thinking like that. So leadership is not thinking forward thinking about it. And so that's a typical example of what happens. And what the impact is on an organization, donors get hurt, her colleagues were devastated. In fact, one person threatened to resign. And they they immediately then raise that person's salary just to keep that person. So it was just not a good place. You know, and then the other things you see is really high stress levels of staff. They're feeling pressure from management to go after that money. And so they feel a lot of pressure. And so there are a lot of time off. People are taking time off because they can't handle that. But on the and on the donor side for development, what we see is high donor value attrition with donors. When you're when I see nonprofits that are toxic, and the development team is not cared for correctly. Obviously, that affects donors. And so when I look at a database of a donor base that is losing 40 to 60% of their revenue year over year from the same donors, that means they have a problem, not just a strategic problem, but a philosophy and a toxic work environment problem within that organization. And we see this over all all the time. So donors who are good donors, like giving 10,000, 200,000, the next year, they're either going away, because they weren't treated well, or they're giving to 40 to 60% less every year. It's it's awful. Well, I think when I hear someone mention a toxic workplace, I immediately think of the internal staff. And this this conversation has helped me to realize that our external stakeholders or our stakeholders that only see us not only but might mostly see us from the outside looking inward, they too can raise the flag and say this is a little toxic, right? The way that I'm being treated, the stewardship, the cultivation, the relationships that I've made with my, you know, donor development person, when that is seen outside of, you know, I'm going to say the four walls because that's kind of, you know, how we refer to that that is is horrible. We have quite a bit of comments that have come in today and even a question. But first, I want to start with this one. Hurray, Jeff. This has happened to my entire 35 years in the business. And that's one of the many reasons that I retired early, earlier than I had planned. So someone's just saying, thank you, Jeff. That's sad, isn't it? It is very sad. We have a question. And I believe this is going to take us into our next topic about corrections. But in particular, as we address, how might we correct our toxic workplace and making these corrections? In particular, Jeff, if you might be able to include how we would evaluate our senior management in relation to making these corrections and improvements within the toxic workplace? Yeah, that's a very good question. And, you know, it kind of goes all the way up to the board level in evaluating senior level staff. Hopefully there is, first of all, that you have like 360 type of evaluation, that would be one way so that leadership gets to hear feedback from all all their people. That's that's an important value, not only from the board, but also from all the all the staff. So being able to do that and survey your staff is something that would be really important. And then, you know, having some key, you know, key metrics that senior leaders have to meet, you know, with their staff, you know, are they supportive of staff? Do they do they feel like they're getting support from senior level staff? Is senior level staff involved in fundraising? You know, those kind of things, and being able to rank those and be able to get that kind of information so that the board can evaluate senior level staff. So that's, that's an important part of it. You know, and then it really goes to me, one way to change this is really evaluating, you know, going back to the mission again, does your mission actually include your staff and donors in it? And do you talk about that ongoing? Do you talk about, you know, if you have staff meetings every month, which I hope nonprofits, nonprofits listening do, and reporting back to your staff and your donors, you know, what is happening with the organization, and always talking about your story of what is your mission. And you're highlighting not only the need that you're addressing, but great staff that are helping you do that mission. And then the donors as well, always bringing it back to the donors and highlighting those donors, so that staff donors and program are all honored around that. So I've seen some great organizations that do that every month, and they make it a point to highlight their staff, they bring in donors to talk about what an impact that organization has on them as a donor, but also the need that's out there. And when that that's a great organization, I mean, those are the kind of organizations you want to work for, you know, that you find joy in that you can see that the donors are supporting. When they take the time to really talk about those specific things, and those are all related to the to the mission. The other is, when an organization can adopt what I would call a culture of philanthropy, and that means that everyone in the organization understands that donors are not only part of the mission, but make the mission happen. And so that permeates everything from program to finance, the executive team and board. I mean, just an example of that is, you know, most donors leave because they don't know how their gifts made a difference. Yet there are so many nonprofits that don't have a system and structure in place to report back on impact, because they don't see it as a value. And that's because they don't have a culture of philanthropy. If they did, they would know that donors need to have this. Therefore, we're going to spend the resources and time necessary to report back in a meaningful way to donors. Right. One of the patterns I've heard is ask, thank, report, repeat, right? Ask the donor, you thank the donor, you report back to the donor, and then you repeat the cycle again. And without that, you address and you adopt that gimme, gimme, gimme mentality, which perpetuates the toxicity within the workplace and the culture and the community. I'm curious throughout these last three years, Jeff, what have you seen trending be a good, bad and different when it comes to the toxic workplace? Because we know that there is this great Exodus, you know, referred to as the Great Resonation. But what are you seeing? What's trending with layering the, I like to say the multiple pandemics, right? Not just the global health crisis, but we have crisis in so many areas which have layered the pandemics. What are you seeing? Well, one positive, you know, so out of every kind of tragedy or death, I would call it comes rebirth. And so something that I'm seeing that I feel is a real positive is the whole emphasis around DEI issues, diversity and inclusion and equity. And nonprofits, you know, haven't really done a great job talking about that. And we are talking about it now. And we're doing things about that. And looking at how can we change our culture around really developing a diverse workforce and valuing that. So that's a huge one that's going on in the nonprofit space. I also feel like there is a greater emphasis now on how important it is to develop relationships with donors. And the reason for that is because we've been extremely busy in our work. I mean, the you know, we get calls every day. It's been unbelievable how we've grown at Veritas Group because our work is to manage and build major gift, mid level, plan giving programs, and then work alongside of those donors. And we've had so many organizations say, gosh, we need to understand how to build relationships with donors. We've we've been doing it all with direct response marketing fundraising, which is great. And we think that's awesome is building your building the, you know, the donor base. But to build the pipeline to move up, you need that mid level and you need that major gift. And so a lot of organizations now are waking up to that and deciding, yes, this is important to us. And even though we can't maybe be face to face with you, we can develop new tools and technology. And we've seen that that's a huge thing that's happened, obviously, Zoom works, we're doing it today, right? I mean, I'd love to be with you right now be a lot be a lot of fun. We're still making a connection here. And we're seeing a lot of organizations embrace it and making those connections with donors. And in some ways, the donors have been way more open because of that than they had ever been. They're not as closed off as you would in the first meeting, zoom seems more comfortable. So we're seeing a lot of that. And that's been a positive. That's interesting. And one of the things we've talked about over and over Julia is that return on relationship. And to simply, you know, I remember right when the global health pandemic hit. And a lot of our donor development staff and guests were talking about simply pick up the phone again, this this is my phone. It doesn't work for it. So up the phone and ask how are you right? It was a true genuine connection that return on relationship and not that return on investment, which again goes back to that gimme mentality, and to really focus on the relationship, the people. And as you said, the donors that culture philanthropy is what keeps the organization going and growing. That's what helps us to make payroll. That's what helps us to expand our mission and our programming. That's right. We don't want to, you know, do ill by buyer supported. Yeah, I know, and it seems counterintuitive to have many nonprofit leaders, but to spend the time and build those relationships always comes back to help you on the revenue side. It always does. When you're going after the money and you get tight, you might get an initial gift. But if you go after the relationship, the long term value of that donor goes way up, way up. Layne, you know, I love that we had you on this first week of back to school because we're all about educating and sharing knowledge. But I think this is a really great reminder as we look forward to a lot of uncertainty. I mean, the anniversary of civic civil unrest in our own nation's capital, there are a lot of heavy topics that are going on. But when it comes back down to it, these relationships and how we can steward our communities forward, this has been a great, great message. Here's Jeff's information. Check them out. They've got a really interesting approach. Verity says and they have a very well developed website. Jeff and his team has so many published authors. They write a lot of commentary, a lot of thought leadership. And so I think it's an excellent resource. When we first met Jeff along with Richard Perry, we had you on specifically to talk about your book. It's not just about the donor. And it was really a great conversation. And this was almost two years ago, Jeff, when we first were packing. I know. And you know, in those two years, we've gotten so much great feedback from fundraisers who got the book for their nonprofit leader, because that's that book is really geared to making nonprofit leaders and managers really understand major gift fundraising. And it's helped them so much. It gives us, it makes us feel so good that it's been used the way we intended. And to help these leaders and managers be better at it, you know, Yeah, well, it's a great conversation and one that we don't have enough. And so I really recommend this book. I know you sent me your team sent me an advanced copy and I've read it. And it's really a much healthier holistic way to look at things. And it had the impacts are so much better than as Jared says, just the gimme, gimme, gimme mentality that's so easy for the nonprofit sector to fall into. So check it out. Hey, everybody, again, if we haven't met, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. I've been joined by my nonprofit nerd, the nonprofit nerd, your nonprofit nerd, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. Again, we want to make sure that you know, you can find us on Roku, YouTube, Vimeo. I mean, all sorts of ways that our archives are coming to you. So check us out every day our archive grows. And we have a lot of amazing information. Again, that information comes to you with support from all of our sponsors. Without these amazing companies, we would not be here. Starting our third year of service, the nation's only daily show, I mean, like this, so it's really pretty powerful. And we have so much still to talk about so many new guests coming on board. So we really want to say thank you to everyone. And to let you know that we got a move in Jesse here, don't we? Yeah, and we're so grateful that you joined us. Thank you, Jeff. For being here with us today. And for all you do, we are so thrilled to know that you are here in our community and a champion for the cause. So thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun, you know, as we end every episode and we have said this from the get go, we're going to continue to say it. Stay well. So you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow.