 Welcome, it's documentation office hours. This is the 15th of December. Thanks for being with us. Topics, LTS, contributor spotlight, contributor summit. GSOC 2024 version documentation. And let's see, this one needs to go inbound that sponsor attributions, Docker compose, and that's probably all we're gonna get to if we were to get to this last, no, this last one isn't relevant for here. Oh, and docs office hours will be canceled next week. We will get to that one because I just have to forewarn. Bossel's talk, thank you. Thank you very much. So we won't, this will be our last one until January then, right? Yeah, because that's a good point. Yes, canceled the next week as well, canceled until January. Yeah, because I don't wanna take the time for it. Good, yes, thank you. Okay, good. If you wanna do something I'm around and willing to hop on, so shoot me a meal. Thank you, yeah, I doubt it. If I do Jenkins things during that two week period, it will be pure entertainment things. And so that's a very different approach then. All right, topics then. So we just released the long-term support release and special thanks to Chris for completing the, being the release lead and completing almost all of the release checklist. Only two items remain. Wow. This one and this one. And it looks really great. Darren Pope and I did a... A Darren Pope and Mark. Did a, what's new in Jenkins? We need a catchy title for those. They've become a real classic standard. Well, it's a lot of fun. I had certainly enjoyed Darren. And contributor spotlight, Alex Earle's spotlight has been published. So if we look at this from the very top, here we go, we see Alex. And before that, another Alex, Alexander. Oh. And Alex is from country where that you at least somewhat recognize that Chandler Arizona spot. Indeed. Next on the list will be Chris Stern. He'll be published in January. We're gonna skip a publication at the end of December because we're taking a break. Yep. And then after Chris, we'll have Uli Hoffner and I think they've got two or three others in queue after that. Oh. And there was a discussion. Oh, this is a fun one to check with you. Okay. So there's an open discussion right now on what should the navigation be for the site? So I'm going to show you what it currently is. So for example, if I go to sub projects, let's look at Jenkins operator, something rather obscure in the top left corner. When I click the Jenkins word, it takes me to the top of www.jankins.io. Okay. Okay. And, but now if I go to the top of success, if I go to the plugins page, so this is sort of a different contextual framework. And now let's say I look for something like get and I go to one of these plugins. Now, if I click the top left, it takes me to the top of the plugins subsection so that I can find, do further navigation. So this is not a go home to the, to a conceptual single page, it's go home to the portion of the pages where I'm located. Right. So now what that means when I go to success stories, if I go ahead and read a story, let's read something from Jim Klimov. And now when I click this one, it takes me back to stories. When I click contributor spotlight, and let's say I look at Alexander Brandis. Okay, here's Alex. And now I click the Jenkins at the top left and it took me back to stories. So that behavior was perplexing to Alyssa, Alyssa Tong, and she said, hey, shouldn't this always go to the root www.jankins.io instead of conceptually to the subsites? Right. Because I still could get to the subsites from the stuff that's over at the right end, right? Correct, but the complication is that if I've navigated into one of these pages and I want to go looking for something else that's only accessible from the root of that subsection, I have to navigate through the right-hand side instead of using the go home where home is a context-specific concept. So do you have a, I'm open to your opinion. We discussed it in Docs Office Hours Europe earlier, about 12 hours ago. What do you think? Should this go to, should clicking here take me to effectively, let's see, to here, say now to here. Should it take me to this page or should it take me into the subsection? Okay, I think the fact that it says Jenkins means I always want to go to the top when I hit. So you're, you associate this link with this word and thus this page. Now you've got a whole lot of real estate there. What I would kind of like would be to have a secondary, so it's sort of a bread crumb. I can't, I can't read, I can't get new glasses. What that is in red meant to the right of Jenkins. This is the continuous delivery foundations logo. And it certainly could be shifted over. Now on narrow screens, we start to get a little bit of spill. Oh yeah, yeah. But it could be shifted over. It could be, and I don't know, for instance, if I remember correctly, no other CDF site has these kinds of links to the Jenkins project, right? They've got links to, they may have links to CDF like this one does, but they don't provide links to individual projects from a dropdown like we do. So it would be justifiable to say, hey, we're going to switch to do like these other CDF project pages do where we only link to the top level page like that. But that would only narrow the thing a little bit. So it's not a great narrowing. Because what I'd like to see, because one scenario is I know what I'm doing. Always a dangerous thing to risk when you're dealing with, but so I know I'm going into plugins and I drill down and I want to get back to tech. The other thing is I'm like, what do they have? I'm brand new, I look, what have they got for plugins? And I look and I scoot around some and I say, nah, that's not what I want. Let me go back to the top. And, but to me, it's like a truth in advertising. When it says Jenkins, I expect that to take me back to the top. Okay, so you're, you're, you are more towards the way Alyssa perceives it, that this should go all the way to root. Right, or now what I would say, I wouldn't, I think I would like, that's what I, almost like a secondary one. So I have a choice that says, take me to the top of this section, that it would change. So it would, I've dug down and plug in. So over there, I see plugins or highlight the one that's over on the right end to show where I am. Oh, okay. Yeah, because you've, we've actually got that. I just have to drop down in, so in now I'm in the mobile view, right? This is, this is narrow enough that it's in mobile. And so when it's going in the mobile view, it does highlight my current section. Right. And if I, oh, go ahead. Oh, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Finish what you're saying, I'm sorry. No, no, I, I, that was it. Oh, okay. What I want to know is what happened, a link, is there some place, can you go into the documentation and link into the plugins? There's gotta be this, right? Sure. So for instance, we've got, let's look at some examples. Here is the pipeline syntax reference. And in the pipeline syntax reference, I think, oh no, pipeline steps reference. This will give us an easy link to, to a plugin. So here we go. Here is this, and it says, view this plugin on the plugin site. Is that what you were looking for? Right. Now, what happens if I go to, if I click the Jenkins button, do I go to the top? So from here, if I go back to that. So from here, if I click the Jenkins button, it goes to the top page of WW. Okay. If I click here and then click the Jenkins button, it goes to the top of the plugin site. Okay. And I was reading documentation and wasn't thinking and I left clicked rather than right clicked when I went to that plugin. I want to read the documentation and I just lost the documentation in my place in it. Okay, now I'm not sure I understand. So you're saying, if I open this, if I open this, then click this, it doesn't take me back, but neither of them will take me back when I click the top left. They'll both take me to a root, to someplace at the top. Tell me more. Describe them further, what's your, what's your vision? Okay, well, it's what I think I'm doing. I think I'm reading the documentation about creating pipelines. Right. And you mentioned this plugin, so I clicked to look at it. But what I want to be doing is reading the documentation about creating the pipeline. And I have no good way back to that now. Well, and here's the documentation, but it's not going to take me back to what I was reading. I see, I think what you're saying is, in the first place, would a bread crumb, a bread crumb have been helpful here to get me through, to get me back. Is that what you're suggesting? Maybe if this top bar added a bread crumb that would remember the last few places, that would be helpful. Is that? Yeah, that's what I'm saying is that, I mean, people start jumping around and I know I get frustrated with that because, and I'll, you know, I'll say I should have right clicked. I knew that, I knew better. But, because then I not only, I may not, at that point, I don't want to go just back to the top of documentation either. I want to go back to that paragraph I was reading. I was just getting into this. And I was like, what's this? And now I'm lost. And I've got to start all over and try to find where I was and scroll down to where I was in the file. And it's, yeah, I mean, it's, as I, in this, in this context, when you talk about it, it makes sense. As a casual user, it looks to me like Russian roulette when I, there's this Jenkins button. Click it and see where you land. Wee! Right, right. Whereas, I think Russian roulette is would match with, with Alyssa's description. She was expecting this would always go to the same location, www.jenkins.io, no matter which place you're in along this navigation bar, whether you're down here in Jenkins Remoting, where it does do what you've described. Or if you're, but you're, if you're in plugins, it takes me back to the root of plugins or spotlight takes me to the root of spotlight. Right. Which A may or may not be where I want to be. Yeah. I mean, a thing of plug of breadcrumbs across for where I've been would be very nice. So I could go back to wherever I want to be on that. Right. And, oh, go ahead. Oh, I just did GSOC project. Yeah, yeah. That certainly, that would be an interesting one because it would probably have to be embedded in this, the bar that you see across the top is the, is a shared component across all the sites. Right. And so it would have to be embedded in that shared component somehow and handle the mobile, you know, the collapse, the expanding behavior, et cetera. Can that be two lines? It could be, but then we sacrifice vertical screen real estate. And for many people, vertical screen real estate is a very precious thing. Right. So, but I'm going to take, I'll take your comments, particularly since they're recorded here and I can share them with others, say, hey, here's another viewpoint from somebody who does documentation professionally. And one thing that I, I mean, what I could live with, I don't know what's perfect because different scenarios, different things make sense. Sure. But I would, if it says Jenkins, I expect to go to the top of Jenkins. Right. That I hit, you know, you could make it say, you know, you could make it change. So it says plugins or, you know, whatever, if that's where I'm going to go, or it could say take me to the top of this session or whatever. But yeah, it bugs me that it's not, it's not always, it's, you know, on my Tivo, I've got a button that says home and no matter what I do, that takes me to the same place. Right. Right. Exactly. So the good analogy, the home analogy for a, is a good one. And I think you're inferring that because of the typography that's same here and here. It's, okay, I expect to go to that place because that's what it looks like. Even when I'm here, okay, different typography. Here, again, different typography. But when I click this, it takes me back to a page, it should take me back to a page that is, has that consistent typography. I like that, good idea. Because there's another thing, too, that I go in and people, and this bugs me, but it is the world. I need to get over my old party self, but I go searching for something. And so I get that whole search and I click on one of those and I'm going to lose my search, unless I was smart enough again to right click. But then I still, I don't know where I am. I just keep getting lost, you know. Right. So. Okay, good. Thank you. Thanks very much. Yeah, I'm always free to mouth off with an opinion. Well, and that's exactly what I wanted here was an opinion. So, excellent. Yeah. Thank you, thank you. All right. Well, I think we've covered the most crucial items. Are there any others that are really hot here? Oh, actually, yes, there's one more. This one is a good one for you and you and I to discuss as we're reaching the end of our available time. So we had a request from one of our sponsors. Hey, could you please add an attribution to us on your downloads page? And the governance board said, yeah, that's a good idea, but really we ought to do something more like this page where Adoptium shows has a page that is entirely dedicated to sponsors. Aha. And it makes, I think it makes great sense. Yes, here we go. They're saying thanks to these sponsors, et cetera. There were some other examples of sponsor pages like, yeah, I don't have them at hand, but so what Basel did is Basel has created a prototype. And I think let's take a look at the prototype just to see how it looks. So if we open up the, oops, no, no, I clicked the wrong button, rats. I clicked the wrong button. Sorry, back to draft. It's not ready for review. It's not mine to change. I'm sorry, I mistake. All right, let's look at show environments. This one, yes, I meant the fake. Slash project slash sponsors. So here is the current layout that he's got. Now he's still got to tune it and he knows that, but concepts, top level thing, anchor. This is for the really exceptionally large contributors sponsorship-wise. And CloudBees is the one, the largest single sponsor, both in number of people contributing to the project and financial contribution. Okay, yeah. And then other sponsors. These are all, well, these in particular, JFrog, GitHub, CD Foundation and AWS are each strong sponsors, OSL, Red Hat, less strong sponsors. And so the actual levels here, you'll have to see who goes where. Some of them, like Atlassian, donate a license to their software, right? Others like DigitalOcean donate tens of thousands of dollars of cloud services. So IBM donates access to a system 390 mainframe for us. Those kind of things. Algolia does our search engine. Oracle doesn't donate anything anymore. So naturally there are some that we've got and Linux Foundation is really part of CDF. So that's where we've got work to do here, but the concept is this, any ideas, insights, concerns there? Yeah, obviously, it's just like the logo page. It's just hard to look at. And I don't know what you do with that because everybody wants their logos up there. Well, and Buzzal's noted that one of the things that he will need to address is getting the page design right. Because it certainly is important to these sponsors that their logo is distinct and visible and appropriately placed so that it's not confused with somebody else, you know? So we need the right amount of space around it. We need all sorts of things like that. Right, would it be, would it be gauche if there was a way like to click on them? And well, we could give a click to their homepage too. Which is what it does. Oh, okay, it does. But have a little blurb about what they contribute. We don't have to say it's value, but we think of that for the license they contribute. And we think IBM for the main thing, you know? Yeah, good suggestion. You don't have to say you're our best friend or, you know. Right, but telling a bit of the story of what they contribute. GitHub's contribution, for instance, is enormous in the sense that we host 2,000-plus repositories on GitHub, we host security repositories for secure preparation of patches and hotfixes before they're publicly visible. We rely on them a bunch. JFrog likewise, they provide enormous amount of artifact repository content for us and we use it heavily. So that way the little story would be interesting. Right, right, exactly. I don't know if they're short enough. It could even be like if you just hover over it, pops up as something. Oh, oh, now that's an interesting idea. A hover text to say, yeah, see the, I assume that they'll want, that the logo goes to their site, but wondering could we add some subtext below it or something like that that would say, here's how JFrog and maybe a two-phrase thing of JFrog, the Jenkins artifact repository, GitHub, the Jenkins source code repository, et cetera. Yeah, interesting. It says something and it's a place, I don't know, I'm thinking of weird things like a bunch of these places, I think gave us some money for Sheco's Africa. Yeah, several of them did some years ago, right, exactly. That would be as a, it's not a big thing, the fact that they did it three years ago or something, but if you had something like that and we thank them for their contribution to the 2024. Right, right, good suggestion. Yeah, should we, now the benefit of additional text is it may give some further space between the logo, so that could be a positive, yeah. And it might be, I don't know, I'm not a design person, I'm not, but with these, I'm almost wondering if each one sort of got framed and they were arranged kind of around, I don't know, they're doing cool things with, like the newspapers get more and more interesting online, but if there was like a little frame box, so you've got some text in the frame and in that one and you could do different colors for different ones or something. Right, yeah. Like even that, I mean, that's very, at least they're all lined up and stuff, but it's still just, I kind of glance at it and go, yeah. Right. What are you doing? What is your involvement here? Because some are contributing a lot. Some are really invested, like Cloudbees is really invested in Jenkins. Some of these others, it's a small part of what they do. Correct, right, exactly. In terms of, and that's one of the reasons why what Basel has suggested here is, let's be sure that we have levels and the governing board agrees on the criteria for assignment of a sponsor to a particular level. And I think he's right. And I propose some alternate names for the levels, but the concept of levels and assigning them to levels resonated quite well with the governing board as well. I think they liked it also. But also we ought to sort of explain what the levels are. Well, and that's a topic for discussion by the board, right? Deciding what criteria should be used. Part of that is Basel's doing research right now to based on some preliminary numbers he received as a member of the board, he's preparing to slot companies or sponsors into these various categories. And then he'll propose something based on some criteria. It'll then be discussed by the board and finally a decision probably will be settled on. Okay, here are the thresholds for membership in each of these levels. Right, yeah, because then it's gonna have to be what's the relative value of the GitHub space versus the JFrog space versus the IBM space, right? Exactly, and that's where it gets, there isn't a level of complication there, right? Because CDF is a legal sponsor and holds the copyrights which is certainly a valuable but non-cash thing. They also contribute cash to cover our cloud costs whereas GitHub doesn't do cash in any form but provides major infrastructure. Right. Open the OSU, the Oregon State University open source lab provides mirrors and no cash but hosting for equipment for us. Oh, yeah. And so it's various levels of contribution. Red Hats, for instance right now is contributing through CDF and eventually probably will drop off this list entirely. Okay. So yeah, cool. What's PageRDU? I mean, then I'd start looking at this, you know? Yeah, PageRDuty provides the notifications for the Jenkins Infra team. Now, it's in terms of cash value, it's probably smaller than the contribution from a number of these others but it is still very much a valued contribution. Uh-huh. And that's what, you just feel like almost what you're saying for these like a sentence or two is the perfect thing that I'd like to see either as a sidebar or a pop-up or... Some way of describing here's the service that Netlify provides, right? Or here's what Discourse provides and each of them, yeah, I think you've got a good point. It's certainly necessary to show the logos but it would be much better if we could thank them specifically for the thing they're contributing to the Jenkins project. Right. Good, okay. Okay. Well, Meg, I apologize, I'm sort of out of time. Are you okay if we call a pause for this? I am so, yes, I have such a stack of things to do, I'm actually relieved, but... All right, well, let's go ahead and thank you very much. The recording will be available. You have a wonderful holiday.