 Hi everyone, I'm Dan Coice, I'm a writer at Slate, I'm the host of Slate's Parenting Podcast, Mom and Dad are Fighting. Welcome to another social distancing social from Future Tense, which is a partnership of Slate, New America and ASU. I'm coming to you live from my basement in Arlington, Virginia. My kids are upstairs right now playing Minecraft simultaneously on two computers, so this is gonna be a real test of our home network, maybe the greatest test yet of our home network. Let's see how it goes. And that's very apropos because today we are talking about kids tech and screen time, a topic of great interest to everyone right now as you are suddenly trying to work from home with kids who want things from you as kids tend to do, knowingly enough. I am joined today by Lisa Guernsey who is the director of New America's Teaching, Learning and Tech program. Hi Lisa. Hey there, Dan. Where are you coming to us from? I am not far from you, I just realized. I am in Alexandria, Virginia and I am in my home office which is actually just a little nook in my kitchen, so right next to the refrigerator. And what screens are your kids on right now? So at the moment, and they'll probably storm in anytime in the next 20 minutes, my kids are out. One of them is actually at a garage where other teenagers have, they know how to drive, have pulled up to the garage and they have their Spotify playlists going and so they're all trying to listen to music together in the same space but still being socially distant from each other, so it's a little experiment that they're trying this afternoon. That's adorable. That's kind of crazy, yeah. And the other one was on Minecraft quite a bit earlier and she is out right now taking a walk. All right, so you know, I think ordinarily this conversation would go along a couple of very traditional paths, right? We talk about what the current recommendations are for screen time and kids and we talk about, well, what are the pros and cons and what are some tactics you can use if you want to encourage your kids off screens and what are some ways you can relax if you're maybe obsessing too much about your kids and screens. But all that is like out the window now because families are, you know, locked in their houses for the next seven to 100 months. And so I'm curious what you think, how do you think families should be thinking about screen time now as compared to how they maybe thought about it even a month ago? Yeah, I mean, I think that for those families who a month ago were really trying to, quote, be good and follow lots of rules and think about time limits. This is the time to like, whoa, just like it's okay, like we can relax those limits and really think about just being really kind of forgiving with our families about everything that's going on. I think it's just a fascinating moment, honestly, because I have been getting lots of messages, both like from friends and family kinds of text messages coming in, as well as all sorts of kind of questions from reporters and others about how, oh, no, now what do we do? Is this going to like, is this really bad for our kids? Because we're going to have them on the screens for much longer time. And to me, that makes me just really, it's just a sign that we were not having the right conversation before. And now maybe we can have a slightly better one and one that's a little bit more realistic now. And even before the conversation was just kind of, in my opinion, and based on what I've seen in the research, just way too focused on time and not enough on like, what are kids doing and what are they making? How are they talking and what are they creating? And now we need to be just recognizing like, this is, this is overwhelming. This is tough for like, so many families, especially families that don't have as many of the kind of resources and may not have two parents at home to try to manage. And so let's just like, let's find some time to be kind to each other, have some fun with different kinds of screen media, kids who's on and offline kinds of things together. And find just what's fun ways to connect without worrying too much about the quote, rewiring of the brain worries that were there before. Right. Well, talking about connecting, I mean, one of the things that screens are really useful for right now in a way that maybe wasn't so much the case for kids in many families, even a month ago is like staying in touch with friends and family. And so it does seem like the sort of paranoia about screen time. Your brain gets rewired a little bit when you realize that a lot of the time your kids are in front of screens now is basically their social connection to their friends, but also to, you know, my parents or their far away friends or relatives or even even to us in some ways. And so what are some means of connection that you are seeing families seize upon online that maybe they might have been hesitant or not have thought as much about you know, even a month ago? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, there's certainly continued use of, you know, FaceTime and ways of just being able to kind of have have one's friends face on a screen while they're doing something else. Like at least in my house, a lot of that is still happening, right? And so how are they kind of, what are some new ways? One really creative thing that I saw on Facebook just yesterday was a family that I think is a whole neighborhood that was doing this where they were sending each other messages about being part of a bear hunt. And the neighborhood was having a bear hunt and the bear hunt meant put a teddy bear in your window of your house that can be seen from the street and then go out in your car and drive around and hunt for bears that other people have put in their windows of their houses. This is actually remembering it. This is my sister in law actually who posted this. This was happening in Connecticut. That is super cute, but I would just revise that to walk on the sidewalks. Don't drive around. Well, it's not yes, yes, yes, that's on the neighborhood, I suppose. Yes, yes. If it's if you're if you're already, you know, if it's just you and your it's just you and your son and you're not putting other kids in the car with you, right? I think that and of course, you can walk on the sidewalk six feet apart from someone and look for bears. But getting creative like that is is just great. I mean, that's the kind of stuff that gives us a little bit of like levity and just kind of see the fun ways that humans can connect and want to connect in this space. So I'd love to hear I'm sure that some of the folks that are on this webinar have lots of different ideas too, and I've seen some really cool things at our house. My mother-in-law, my wife and our oldest daughter are doing a book club, a FaceTime book club. They're all reading the same novel. And then and then next Friday, they're going to get on FaceTime and do a little book club with the three of them. It's a sort of a way to like make the Facebook or the FaceTime conversation structured in a way and also to, you know, to allow them to connect, you know, it's a novel that my mother-in-law really loves that she's always wanted Lyra my older daughter to read. And so now they're this is like a way to give a little bit of structure to that FaceTime call. You know, because kids, my experience with my kids, I'm curious whether you see this feature with yours is that they're not always great at FaceTime calls or phone calls, like those are those are often alien communication methods to them. And so if I ask them to text to their grandparents, they're great at it. But if once it becomes a real conversation, sometimes there's a little bit of tension there for them. And so I like the idea of putting that structure into it. Yeah, those kinds of things like book clubs or even just dance, you know, dance parties, certainly seen a lot of examples of those where suddenly you have a zoom room with all sorts of kind of families and kids in their living room all trying to kind of dance and be together. DJs holding these kinds of group events. Super fun examples of how we can stay connected in this way. For parents with littler kids, where especially, especially in households where there's only one parent there and they have to work or both parents are working, you know, and you have this never ending tension between a child needing care and attention, and you needing to do your job. And, you know, I think people have always been very hesitant to think, you know, to use screens as babysitters. And it's almost becoming a necessity at this point, I think for a lot of people. What are some recommendations you have for ways that parents can feel like they're engaged and involved in the choices their kids are making about stuff online if they're small children, but also can like get the time to get you done. Yeah, I really so the fact that my kids are a little older now, it makes me feel quite fortunate because I still feel the tension of trying to work from home as a freelance writer years ago when I had, you know, a three year old and four year old running around the house. It was nearly impossible to get things done. And so I definitely was occupying them with all sorts of all sorts of things, not always screens. So one thing that I think we should remember is that there's some really good research already on TV shows that are made for kids that are good. They're helpful for them. They're socially emotionally appropriate for them. They've been designed with little kids in mind. They've been designed with learning in mind. And those, you know, ideally, yes, you're watching with your child. And I know there's a lot and I've myself written a lot about how important co viewing can be, especially for kind of conversation with your kids. But because we know that those programs, and I'll, you know, just naming a few, this could probably start from years ago, right? But like, you know, super why has great research behind it on how it's helping children learning to read and blues clues was an excellent program for problem solving. And you can still find these kinds of shows. Many of the PBS programs now are designed specifically to help children learn all sorts of cool things and get kind of excited about learning. And so those can be opportunities for you to go and do the phone call you need to do as a parent and know your kids are going to be, you know, in a pretty good place doing some kind of screen, screen media work, so to speak. But then the other thing that I think we all seem to recognize is that even if you aren't with your children while you're doing this, you shouldn't feel so guilty. What you can do is like, find moments to just talk about those media moments later, like maybe it's a couple of hours later when you're all together again in the kitchen trying to kind of pull something together for dinner. And you can talk to your kids about what what do they see on that program today? Why they like this? What is it about that character you love so much? Or any of these kinds of or even just act out a silly song that came from the show. And those are ways to just use that alone that maybe as a child alone time with media as a jumping off point for all sorts of cool, like face to face conversation in the household. And and also there's some really cool ideas for offline activities that can come from those shows as well. So just recognizing that it's what's happens before, during and after that matters. It's not just, you know, that moment that that child is watching something on screen. So you and I both live in Virginia, which means we both got the email just a few days ago, alerting us that school is out for the rest of the school year. This is an email that it seems likely most many, if not most other parents in the United States will be getting soon if they haven't already gotten it. I think so far it's just us in Kansas, but soon to be everywhere else. Which means, you know, on top of everything else, it means that what we think of as an academic experience for our kids over the next couple of months is going to be like radically transformed from what we've been used to. And, you know, I'm a person who has been like loudly and annoyingly on record on the podcast for many years, as to how much I hate the sort of like iPad based and screen based learning that my kids schools have been engaged in. I mean, it's I mean, since Lyra was in kindergarten, honestly, you know, that stuff just drove me crazy. The number of accounts we had to set up drove me insane. And now, you know, I as a dad and as a person who talks and thinks about this, and who loudly swears about all this stuff all the time, I'm now faced with this new reality in which this is where learning is going to happen. If it's going to happen, this is where it's going to happen. And teachers are, you know, doing their damnedest in the midst of their own extremely complicated lives to get stuff up on Canvas or on Google classroom or wherever for kids to be working on. What should we know as parents, you know, sort of as a baseline about how learning on a screen differs from learning in a classroom and what kinds of things should we be ready for over the next couple of months? Wow. Well, as I'll say, first, I think we need to like reset expectations in a big way. I think teachers right now are they're amazing. They're trying to do so much with so little and they have principles who are also trying to do so much with so little. But there, we just need to realize it's not, there's no way we can replicate what our kids were getting at school. And we also are, we're still processing like this is tough for families. This is a lot, especially families that are now like dealing with lost jobs and trying to figure out how they're going to get through the next couple months. So resetting our expectations and having a little like grace is going to be key. And then at least right now, I'm thinking that some of the most important things will be those moments where kids are feeling actually really motivated to keep learning and motivation is going to be hard for a lot of kids, especially the older ones that are like, I don't know why I'm even doing this. I mean, by the time the kids are in middle school, probably saying that. So can can we find maybe it's through the tools that teachers are sending and that absolutely would be great. But can we find some ways to just provide some like storytelling in our households or to kind of riff off of something that maybe our kids were learning. Maybe it means, you know, if they were learning about World War One and gosh, they're about to like learn about the Spanish flu. Now we can pull open some old videos about this and try to just absorb it as a family instead of following like the strict kind of guidelines of what they're supposed to be learning. Motivation is really tough, because I mean, at least we're seeing in our house that, you know, I know that the research shows that grades are not a particularly good motivator. And never the last schools cling to them. And so I guess who've been who for whom grades have been the motivator for the last couple of years. And now it's very unclear to them that grades, anything they do matters from a great perspective, right? Like SOLs that the end of year tests are canceled. They've basically been told whatever your third quarter grade was, that's just going to be your grade. Don't worry about it. And so like, how can I motivate them not to like think of this as school or placement for school, but just to like think of this as a thing that's worth doing? I think that is an excellent question. And I don't I definitely myself don't have all the answers because right now it can feel especially for the tweens and teens. Like it's instead instead of doing all these things I had to do, but I didn't want to do anyway. Now I'll sleep in a little bit and I just need to be able to connect with my friends. I'm hopeful that we can get some ideas both from, you know, teachers, but also as we're talking to relatives online or seeing cool examples that are coming out of like what museums and libraries are posting. We can get some ideas for some more kind of creative ways of just approaching learning generally. So going and painting something or going on a tiny little scavenger hunt in your backyard, doing something that involves music and dance, finding ways to incorporate some of the things you can't do in a regular classroom. But now we might have some opportunities to do because there is a little bit more flexibility and we don't have these strict time limits where suddenly class is over after 40, 45 minutes. Maybe this can be an opportunity to just give kids some room to stretch and play in the kitchen, do some kind of crazy audio podcast that they might want to try out with their grandparents. And where we can, yes, connect that to the learning that they might be asked to be doing in there. I do I do like the idea of like finding activities that you can do with your kids or that they can do on their own that that maybe have some tangential connection to what they're learning or just maybe that like serve that serve your educational purposes as a parent, right? Like what do you what do you think is important for your kids to be learning right now? Maybe it's about the natural world. And so you're going to send them out to the backyard to do some gardening. But like, I think it's very helpful that presumably over the next couple of months that our children's threshold for what they consider a boring activity is going to like plummet as they become desperate for anything to do. Like maybe a month or now stuff that we suggested now where they're like, oh, they'll be like, okay, sure, give it a try. I have a whole I have this massive folder on one of our other computers full of old photos. This is you know, a digital activity that I someday want to put into photo books but haven't had had any time. And so I'm wondering, maybe this is something that I kind of put the kids on. Like, here, you know, go at it, figure out what to do with some of these digital photos and make make books of what you see here. And let's like get that, you know, use Shutterfly or whatever other app we can and just get some of that done. And then as they're doing that, they are learning all sorts of kind of cool skills about curating things and putting things together and making decisions about what they're using. And maybe they could be doing that collaboratively with like cousins or other friends. So but that's not something that's not the same as, oh my gosh, I'm supposed to do this worksheet that my, you know, teacher sent home. And I still don't even really understand what the instructions are. And I can't get on zoom. You know, we can't figure out how to make our connections work to talk about it. And those those are the stressors, like, I think every new every new service you have to sign up for. Oh, yeah, it's just yet another stressor. And there's all these little technical glitches. And I mean, this is in, I mean, weren't like an abundance of like, opportunity here in our household. And yet there's still these glitches with like uploading something to a Google Doc and the photo didn't work. And, and there's already just so many of the layers of stress that have been added into our lives that just kind of like, it can leave kids in tears trying to kind of deal with all this and not being able to kind of really communicate to their teacher that I couldn't, I couldn't get this thing done or I couldn't look at that file or that video didn't work for me. Just that's why I say like having just some grace and some sense of like forgiveness about what this next couple months are going to look like it's going to be just going to be really important. Do you think that maybe secretly almost every teacher in America is grateful every time a kid doesn't turn something in? That's the gift we can give them. All right, we have a question from a viewer. It's a sort of a nuts and bolts question. And I think we both should answer it. I'm curious what your answer is as well, which is just, you know, there's we have this new circumstance, your kids are home from school. What were your family screen rules before? And have you made any like concrete changes in those screen rules starting now? Okay, who wants to go first? Sure, I'll go first. We do we do have some screen rules and they're embarrassingly time based. And it used to be an hour and a half on weekdays and two hours on weekends. And, you know, we try to try to police that via various apps and and things that are constantly sending notifications to our phone letting us know exactly how much time our kids have been spending online. And we're constantly switching from one computer to the other on circle and everything. And it's like a full time job. And we've so we've relaxed the time limit. And we've the main change we've so it's two hours a day every day weekend or non weekend. And the main thing we've done is that we just sort of greatly broadened the kinds of things that we used that we once would have considered like limited screen time that we now think of as not counting to that two hour limit. So basically the two hour limit is now solely on you sitting at a computer on your phone by yourself not interacting with other people. It's just watching YouTube videos or whatever or just playing the switch by yourself. But like if you so like my kids playing Minecraft upstairs with each other is not part of their screen time. That is in fact an activity they are encouraged to do every day to play a game with each other whatever kind of game it is Face timing with a grandparent or a friend or setting up a group chat or whatever no longer part of like limited screen time. And so we've tried to be very conscious about thinking about well what are the kinds of screen time we want them to be engaged in right now. And how can we like incentivize those and and encourage them to be doing those kinds of things on their phones or computers and stuff. So that's what we've done. That is very cool. And you're you're reminding me of what you're saying to me just rings so true because it's about recognizing that the issue really that we've been worrying about it hasn't been screen time. It's about mindless time or time alone or sedentary time. I'm going to describe this in the past as like we've just been using the wrong words for what's going on with kids and with our worries about their use of screen media. And so now we can shift towards some rules in our household around like what is it I really want you to experience. What are my what are my values that I want to impart to you about the kinds of interactions you're having or the kind of content that you're watching and let that be the guide instead of the time. So that in our household. So my kids are a little older than yours. Minor teenagers and I said one of them is already driving. So she's 17 going on 18 for the past couple of years. We've been much more relaxed about kind of screen time rules. And it's been much more about just being kind of good to each other and kind and not having not having the phone at the dinner table and being respectful of when somebody's speaking put the phone away. Those kinds of rules. And those are still there. But the other ones that are falling away a little bit have to do with just getting to bed and having some kind of routine because I had originally been like OK by like 1030 if it's a school night. You know put it away. Done time you know just close down. And I know this probably sounds very late for those who have younger children. But by the time your kids are teenagers you're working hard to get them to actually turn the lights off at 1030. Trust me. So now that they don't have to get up and go to school the next morning. It's like and I'm exhausted. It just right. I need that time so bad. Oh my god. So and I've been I'm going on Zoom conference calls for like hours. We have a new term Zuma Fry that my friend Kathy Hershpasek coined. I'm just Zuma Fry by the end of the day toast. And I'm like all right. I can only say so many times that you guys need to like my daughter like get off Minecraft. It's time to go. It's time to get ahead and I can only say so many times from my other daughter to like stop chatting with her boyfriend. I just got to go to bed. So that's what's really basically falling away in my household. And then on the other end of the spectrum we have another question from a viewer that's just to talk a little bit more about you know the under five crowd. Yeah. And I wanted to focus on you know the very little crowd. What is that as someone who's so far away now from having really little kids. I don't actually know the current American Academy of Pediatrics recommendation for like what's the age below which you're not supposed to have any screen time no matter what. So it's 18 months based on it's 18 months because that's what the science shows that before 18 months there's really no evidence that infants and toddlers are learning from a screen. But there is evidence that when they are with mom and dad or grandma and grandpa or whoever you know an adult with them who is talking with them pointing at the screen together in this kind of joint what's known in the research as joint media engagement there may be some learning moments there. And then certainly by by the time children are over 18 months there are a lot of opportunities for doing face time interactions with with grandparents or parents who are remote for whatever reason. And so the AAP in their new guidance which came out in 2016 made clear that that kind of interaction is good for kids like we don't see any negative effects of doing face time with with grandparents and that that's great for kids like they're having a moment to interact with a family member and it's not like a 100% like the same as face to face but it's pretty good. And then we are seeing there certainly are some time limits that the AAP has has recommended for older like in that kind of preschool range two hours or less. But they put a new emphasis and excuse me I don't know if you can hear my dog is moaning so I'm going to actually tell my dog is going to go out. There's my I don't know if you guys can see this is what the world wants to go out. Sorry about that everybody. Yeah so what they have done is and this is great because it's really based on the research they've really focused on text instead of just time. So the latest recommendations from the AAP say make sure that the content that you're using with your preschooler or your you know your younger child is developmentally like informed is actually something that they can learn from and make sure there's no violence in it of any kind. No aggressive content of any kind. And then in terms of context and do what you can to be with your children when you're using different types of media with them. So I think that if we recognize some of those nuances in the AAP's recommendations. We can relax a little bit as parents of little kids and recognize OK and you know given this crazy context that we're in right now. There's a lot we have to understand about what our kids need and what we need to give ourselves some time and some space and how we just we just need to find some moments of fun and being able to laugh and sing. And sometimes that's going to mean using videos with our kids. You know. It seems to me that the one thing that is almost surely going to happen in these coming months or that a lot of parents are going to start kind of relaxing their sort of hard line on what I've always thought of as uneducational but neutral screen time, which is to say like the time where that is, especially for little kids that is a little mindless where they're just like, you know, where some kid gets insane about train videos and he just loves watching videos of trains forever. And there's absolutely no educational behavior like happening there. But at the same time, like in the short term, if you are doing a good job parenting your child and are paying attention and are and you know, are making a concerted effort to communicate with him or her as often as possible, it's not going to like turn your child's brain into goo. And so I wonder if over the next three months like that kind of just basically like for little kids, if that kind of like neutral online time is going to be something of a lifesaver for parents who just need like that one extra hour, sometime during the day to like take a shower or something. Yeah. I mean, I think so. And I think that we should just all like to me, it's about just recognizing it. It's hard to have little kids around 24 seven. It's just it's just incredibly difficult. And of course, many families find ways and already long before this, we're finding amazing, creative, beautiful ways to do this without losing, you know, losing their mind with their kids. But but most human beings have moments where they just get frustrated and they're just exhausted and they're tired. And and I remember thinking many times and I wrote this in my book screen time about these moments where I had I had two choices. One, I could just totally flip my lid and lose it with my kids, which would not necessarily be a good parenting move. Or what's wrong with it? Yeah, sorry, go ahead and have them go watch, you know, Dora the Explorer. And that became a pretty easy choice. And I got a moment to breathe and kind of hold myself together a little bit. And the kids would then kind of come toggling out of that, singing some silly song or pretending to be swipe or not swiping. I mean, I'm I recognize that I'm now, you know, this is some 10 years ago. Boy, are we dating ourselves? We are really dating ourselves. But I know that those kinds of things are happening now for sure. I mean, Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, some of the beautiful songs that come out of that show are helping families take a deep breath and giving them a chance to say, OK, it's all right. It's just you go watch that show. And yes, let's sing that silly song afterwards. And and instead of the day ending in tears and tantrums, the day is ending on a better note. Dora's a tween now, of course. Yeah, yes, this is true. No longer a little kid. All right, we have one final question and then we'll sign off for this from a viewer. Can you talk about how we can communicate with our employers about how it is not necessarily a solution to our problems at work to put our kids in front of a screen for eight hours a day. And if we have employers who are less than forgiving about the notion that, for example, our kids or dogs might end up on our Zoom calls, how's a way to navigate that relationship and to be honest with an employer, but like not get fired. Wow. All right, it makes me sad to think that there are employers who don't get this, but I guess that's probably the case. Of course, not our fine employers. Oh, yes, not our fine late dot com or the new America. Actually, I'm lucky. I work with so many people of little kids. There's a deep understanding of this issue. But I wish that I could say like, I'll just point them to this guidance, the fact that like, you know, adults, like, you know, kids can't even even kids say, Mom, too much, will you please give me some attention? I'm done watching this thing. And the kids do need they need breaks and they need us like right now they need their parents to just feel normal because they're totally sensing what's going on, even if they're too young to fully grasp what's going on. So I there's some really good fun kind of guidance that came Brookings has a blog on learning and development. And I mentioned her earlier, Kathy, her passing on Roto Galenkov have written some some guidance there about what kids need right now. So I might tell people to send a link to your boss that shows this is what I need to be doing with my kids right now. And it is everything from being able to have a moment to like, you know, be outside with them and give them a little bit of TLC to doing things like using screen media in really cool ways like doing a Google Earth tour with your kids and picking like a cool place you someday want to go when all this is over. And like dreaming of like, when this is all going to be over, we can go to this place and then you guys can, you know, get online and do any little tour as a family. Those are things you got to do. You can't be always on the Zoom calls with the with the boss. It is a really tough question. I also wonder if if your impulse that one way to approach this is just to like to point to the extraordinaryness of the times, not only in the context of your job, but in the context of your family, right? You have kids whose needs maybe are even a little different than they were once upon a time as this sort of, you know, percolating anxiety is going through America and the world and your family and presumably your boss's family as well. You know, when pointing to that as, you know, these needs need to be fulfilled and Dora the Explorer is great or was great, but it's not going to like be the solution to that problem. As a person who wrote that in, I'm super sorry also that that is something that you are facing. I mean, you also the other thing to do is also just to point them to a lot of stuff being written right now on Slate and other websites about how challenging this is and how hard this is for parents and, you know, using some of that as ammo in that conversation that that every employee in America is facing some version of the struggle, even, you know, ones with kids and ones without and every boss in America is facing versions of the struggle and your boss needs to decide, like, what kind of boss they want to be. And I'll add too, I mean, we haven't even mentioned we're talking about just the stresses of our lives being upended, but they're and I know many people who have brothers, sisters, relatives who have COVID-19 who are sick, right? Pretty soon, a bunch of us are going to be sick, you know. So it's just opening the door for my dog again, but yeah, this is like real. This is not this is not just some yell. It's just everybody worked from home for a couple of days. This is something we're going to be coping with. And in the repercussions are huge and sad in many cases too. All right, let's wrap this up. Thank you very much, Lisa. This is really great. Thank you, everyone who joined us in this conversation. Thank you to people who gave us questions. You can join these future tense social distancing socials every Tuesday and Thursday. Lisa, once again, tell us the name of your book. Oh, yeah. So the first book mentioned is screen time. It came out in 2012. So it is a little dated. And the next one is tap click read growing readers in a world of screens. And I wrote that with Michael Levine. And it does have lots of neat ideas about how to do early early literacy learning on screen and off with little kids. And I am the host of the podcast, Mom and Dad are fighting and my book How to be a Family came out last year. The subtitle says it all and has been very relevant right now how I dragged my kids around the world to find a new way to be together. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, everyone. Thank you to America. And we will see you soon. Bye bye. Thanks, Dan. Take care.