 Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Contract Packaging Association's webinar on the rise of the planet of the co-bots. We're going to give everybody another minute to log in, but again, I want to start this session off. I am Ron Buvak. I am the Managing Director of the Contract Packaging Association, and we're pleased to bring you this webinar, produced by Yashkawa, a modal man, on collaborative robots. A quick word about the CPA, our obligatory self-promotion, we're an organization that's been around since 1992. We are the leader in increasing the knowledge and expertise within the industry. We also encourage the effective use of contract packaging, and we increase the industry profile through its capabilities and innovation of its members. Just very quickly, core member benefits, our multiple, I won't spend a lot of time on this, but I want to draw your attention to that we have a tool called the RFQ tool. This tool generates over 90 to 100 requests per month for people looking for services by our members. It's a very effective tool. Now, let's go ahead and get started. All of you are on mute at this time. If you have any questions, please use the question box, the D on the screen, send your question in in Q&A, and we'll respond to as many as we can. This webinar is being recorded and will be posted on the CPA website at contractpackaging.org within a few days. Today our presenter is Jack Oles, sales manager of CPG, Escalo America, Motoman Robotics Division. Jack's got over 25-year history within the packaging automation market. He served as the general manager of a leading stretch wrap equipment manufacturer, served as the national sales manager of a robotics system integrator for complete end of the line and primary secondary packaging, and he's currently the sales manager of CPG Division for Escalo Motoman Robotics. Jack, I believe we're prepared. Would you please take it from here? Well, thank you very much, Ron, and to the members of the Contract Packaging Association, thank you for your time. Rise of the Cobots. I can assure you we're friend, not foe, so we're here to help, and ultimately Cobot is an acronym for collaboration. So today we're going to collaborate together on helping you understand applications and ultimately what and where collaborative robots can assist in your manufacturing processes. What I'd like to do is start with an agenda so you understand what the key topics will be. Obviously, Ron did a wealth of information to help me understand more about Contract Package Associations. We'll touch on that, and then our friends at PMMI have done great work in market analysis. We'll talk a little bit about what's driving the packaging market. Influencers that I'm sure you as a collective group are seeing and experiencing. Then we're going to take a deep dive. We're going to start understanding what a robot is, more of a 101 baseline, but then branch out into the definitions of collaborative and the Cobot industry. We'll shift a little bit of a focus to understand where these applications may provide benefits within a contract packaging environment. We'll wrap up with a summary of who we are at Yaskawa Motelman, and then ultimately some final questions and answers, and we'll hope to get those addressed in a timely fashion today. So thanks to Ron, I learned a lot, and I'm very impressed with the size and the growth of Contract Packaging Association. Projected to be a $75 billion global industry in two to three years. Very aggressive compound growth rate of almost 12 percent. Obviously the United States is the market share leader in that, and as we all know, the manufacturers drive that, and they're focused on their core business and controlling their costs. But the profile of the Contract Packager I learned a little bit more. You can serve as a primary contract packaging entity. You can actually do contract manufacturing, which could be a complete process line. Obviously secondary packaging, repackaging, but you swim in the food, consumer products, and beverage fields. But both today and what's projected in two to three years, contract manufacturing and the food, vertical market, and also secondary packaging are your number one and number two sectors. I've been into a lot of your facilities, and obviously I see a lot what's kind of shown here on the left. A lot of people, a lot of products, a lot of diversity in packaging profiles. But it's interesting, I wanted to show a profile in your actual trade magazine. A couple, three years ago, one of our systems partners integrated multiple robots to provide some automation for palletizing. And actually this line put the cornerboards on the pallet with robots. So there are becoming more robotic applications within your network. So PNMI generated last year, their industry research report in automation. And ultimately what we're seeing in this is there are trends driving investments in manufacturing automation. These are things that I'm sure a lot of your groups are seeing, experiencing, are probably challenged with. But more importantly, maybe on the right are some improvements that automation can achieve. Specifically in contract manufacturing, we learn and understand that you're very volatile. You're very dynamic. You have to react quickly to markets, to your customers, to products. So the ability to run shorter runs, the ability to make changeovers more efficiently and quickly, run multiple sizes and configurations are very important to you. And those are attributes that automation and robotics can generally help you achieve. But now we're going to start talking about the elephant in the room that we all know. I hear virtually every day when I travel. And that is labor and the effects of labor. So the continuation of this report talked about the actual prioritization of trends for automation. Number one is labor, not just skilled labor, but labor in general. If we look at the balance of that, we will see smart machine technology, co-bots, robots, et cetera. It definitely is a mandatory point to consider when you automate. But what's really interesting when PMI generated this report, which reflects the voice of us, the manufacturers, the consumers, et cetera, is the immigration laws relative to labor availability, and ultimately the uncertainty around these immigration laws that are affecting the ability to obtain vital labor resources. So it's something that everyone is now very keen to focus on and look for ways to negate the impact of labor. So let's shift focus a little bit, and we'll start talking now about the meat of the presentation. Ultimately, what a robot is, what a co-bot is, and what a collaborative robot is. One thing to look at is you'll see in a collaborative environment, it can be a co-bot or also a standard industrial robot. It all depends on the safety parameters and the risk assessment, which we'll talk about shortly. Robots 101, this is probably the cornerstone of something to remember, not just as a takeaway from today, but I'd encourage you to think about it when you're looking at a robotic application for any future application, and that is what is a robot. It literally emulates what our human arm does. It's articulation of multiple axes, and those joints can move either in harmony with each other or in a straight line. But the three parameters, and we'll touch on this throughout this presentation, is A, the lifting capacity, how much weight can you lift? B, how far do you need to extend or reach with that particular product in your grasp? And three, how fast do you need to do that, applying the first two, of course, and that results in a gauge to how fast is your production line. So put it in human terms, if you're lifting weight, how fast do you lift it, how far do you have to reach it, and how much weight there is. But the robotic industry, everyone, has really evolved into a lot more progressive technologies beyond just the articulating robot. The sophistication of tooling, or which is referred to as a hand, can perform multiple tasks. They can have tactile feedback. They can become intelligent in themselves, engage pressure forces, and things of that nature. We now are moving robots. It could be on a linear slider. Ultimately, we're deploying them on AGV vehicles to have some intelligence and be able to go to multiple locations in a prepath function or routine. Obviously, the brain or the software, just like our computers and laptops, have become much more sophisticated. The same applies to a robot. And we're also now deploying 3D vision, depth perception vision. So robots with vision can ascertain products basically in a pile or a group with multiple shapes. So we begin to see the evolution of technology has affected the robot industry as well. So now we're here to talk about co-bots. What is a co-bot? Ultimately, by definition, a co-bot is working with a human, either A in a shared workspace, or B and or actually interacting with the robot, as illustrated in this 3D animation. So we'll show basically how a robot functions in this brief video. I hope it's not too choppy, but I want you to pay attention to the very first few moments because you're going to see the key element of a co-bot, which is what's defined as PFL, Power Force Limiting. It's what protects the human. So you'll see the robot begin to operate, and if a human approaches the robot in its motion, as you'll see right here, the robot will safely stop. It stops on a collision. So when that occurs, it says, I've contacted a force. I don't know what to do. Human, please reset me and let me go and continue my job. And that's what that general did. Now we're showing the second facet of collaborative robots, which are hand guiding or simple teaching of the robot. So what this gentleman is demonstrating is he's moving the robot to specific points in space. And as it's achieved that point in space, he's going to input with a little button on the hub of the robot. I want to lock that point in space and then migrate the robot to another point in space. So basically you're teaching the robot its actual job function. A good example for contract packaging would be case packing, or carton packing, where you have a lot of different products. So that pick, traverse, and place positions will change. He's going to demonstrate that right here. So if you can imagine, this is the pick point. He's starting from the beginning. And he's going to approach that pick point. And he's going to lock it into position. And that robot's going to retain those coordinates in space very simply. He'll activate the gripper. And then he's going to path it over to its destination point, which in this case, for example, could be a carton or a case. And then he's going to insert it and lock those positions in space. And there's your program. So literally in a minute, two minutes, someone with very basic skills can program the robot in basic terms. Once that's performed, we all, as we know with machines, you still need a master input device, which is some type of a pendant. He is going to now convert that to an automatic function. And you'll see it demonstrated. Now this is in collaborative mode. So the triggers are on that if a human walks up, it'll safely stop on contact. But it runs at a certain speed because of the risk of human contact. Progressive robots, we utilize what we call functional safety, can also allow the robot to run at faster speed with the same job. But you need to have some additional safety barriers. It could be a light curtain, something of that nature. So in visual terms, that's how a cobot operates and is programmed. But it's a little bit more of a refined definition of what cobots or collaboration is. And hopefully this simple visual will help break it down into three distinct avenues that probably are relative to all of your facilities. The first one is the robot coexists with the human. And that means they don't really share the same working space, but the human may occasionally walk into that space. So you need to have a little bit of safety protection for the human. An example of this could be in a production line, you've got a human that may have to pass by the robot very closely, maybe to replace a dunnage upstream, film, cardboard, cartons, etc. But their interaction through the robot space is maybe less than 5% of the time. The second mode of operation is cooperation, which means they do have a shared working area and the human can enter the zone somewhat regularly, but they're performing different tasks. The human is really not interacting with the robot. A good example would be if you have a case packing application, maybe bottles into a case, a very tight floor space, and after that the bottles are case packed, an operator adjacent to the robot needs to put caps or stems or pump handles into that case because of the intricacy of that operation. That's cooperation with the robot. Third definition is full collaboration. This is where the human frequently and constantly interferes with or interacts with the robot path program. And an example of this might be on a rotary multi-station indexing cable for blister pack operations where the robot can place the blister film, but the next step might be due to small intricate parts. The operator has to put the parts into the blister, and then the next step could be the robot puts on the back stock. So hopefully that paints a little bit more finite review of the three different types of collaboration, and all of them can exist in one facility, but there are solutions for each. So we talked a little bit about, excuse me, power force limitation, and you'll see the definition on that above. What that simply means is in each joint of the robot we have sensors, and those sensors have a certain force or torque value associated. If anything exceeds that as a spike, a robot contacts something, it will safely stop or and move away. One of the dangers is we don't want to clamp. We don't want to compress and crush someone's hand or foot or something of that nature. So I'm going to avoid the the technical weeds of the global safety standards for robotics, because it'll put you all to sleep, but there is one key standard, which is the ISO 15066. That's the global governance for collaborative robots, and they've defined that as these four modes, power force limiting and hand guiding. We just demonstrated that in the video. The other two modes are safely monitored stop and speed and separation monitoring, and again, now that opens it up to a wide range of industrial robots that don't have power force limiting or hand guiding, but can still be defined as collaborative with proper safety measures. So we're going to jump ahead a little bit and hopefully show a visual of kind of what this means when you start looking at a robotic application and collaboration with humans. And in simple terms, if you look at this picture on the right, you'll see an operator near a conveyor maybe with a tray and a robot. That yellow box is basically invisible safety barriers that can breed programmed and assigned within the robot controller. And it's telling the robot, stay inside this box. Don't exceed the distance of that box, okay? But what we're showing here is when you consider a robot application, there's a few things you need to understand. Number one, where is the robot and its reach in relation to where the position of the operator is? Is the operator close enough that the robot can contact or touch the operator? Number one, number two, remember we talked about the speed of the operation. There are some functions in your environment that requires higher speed. Speed relates to force, relates to impact. So the faster the robot moves, the more impact force can be applied to a human. Taking that a step further, the ISO standard governs how much force a human can absorb in various parts of his or her body. Obviously, lower forces at the head, higher forces in the torso and legs. So that's part of the risk analysis of where can a robot contact a human if there is contact? Another thing to consider is what that hand looks like, that tool. Does it have sharp edges? Is it rounded in plastic and protected? So we're just kind of giving you some ideas to think about when you look at a robotic application and a viable integrator or a robotic supplier will help you with this. And ultimately, this leads to an important facet. By code, by law, every integration system has to have what's defined as a risk assessment. That is an OSHA requirement. And the process is simply to A, identify what hazard exists when you come up with a robotic configuration just like your automated equipment you have now. It's all under the same risk assessment protocol. Understand what the hazard is. And taking it a step further, evaluate what the risk estimation is. Where are the areas that incidences can occur? The third step is to reduce those areas of risk and then ultimately establish a plan to the safety codes so humans are protected. So we're going to shift a little bit further now. We've painted a picture of hopefully the robots themselves, how they work, and what a collaborative robot is. But this is now more of a practical example. This slope chart does paint a kind of a good visual of, I'm assuming on the lower left, what a lot of the contract packages are faced with. I've listened to a lot of your peers and obviously the product variety and needing to maintain flexibility, dynamics of display cartons and trays, things of that nature, are sometimes very challenging to do. But obviously, because of those, it's a very labor intrinsic process. On the other extreme, if you fully automate something, you gain productivity or output production rates, but you also are more governed to a volumetric lot size. You want to set up and run high volumes, not so many changeovers because that's loss of efficiency on a production line. But now with the advent of cooperative robots, collaborative robots, like the 80-20 rule, you can still automate 80% of that function where it makes sense. But now you can still blend in some of the human factors to help alleviate some of the challenges due to the variety and our flexibility of products that you need for some of your customers. So hopefully this kind of helps paint a picture that you've now got a bridge to help you and gain a little bit more efficiency in your processes. So to kind of wrap up a little bit about the collaborative market, we've identified four key pillars of where these would be applied relative to a customer's acceptance. But our voice of customer feedback, it always starts with ease of use on the lower right. Customers have said, listen, I'm in a contract environment, or maybe a 3PL, or maybe a distribution logistics environment, don't have a lot of technical wherewithal. And I certainly don't want to send people to quote-unquote robot school. So we really need to make it simple, easy. Operators can interact. We can do simple tasks ourselves. So that's one of the advantages when you understand the collaborative with hand guiding, and we will show you a tool shortly that helps make it very easy to deploy. Secondly, operator safety. We all know and understand and respect the value of protecting operators. So with the tactile feedback, understanding that the robots can safely stop and retract if there's a clamping force, and then being able to keep it in a safe working environment, it's, again, something that is basically a requirement, not a request. Third, because it's a robot, it's very capable. Robots always generally provide an improvement in the production rate. And by improvement, that's defined in many different areas, not just the actual rate of production, but you're improving your product quality in many cases, your product accuracy in many cases. You avoid the risk of product contamination or cross-pollination, which is very important in some of your pharma companies. So there's a lot of pluses in the column when you look at a robotic application. And lastly, obviously, we're all faced with justifiable return on investment. Most times, if you have a multiple shift operation, robotic or collaborative applications generally are very achievable. As far as Yaskawa's collaborative robot is concerned, I'll touch on the first three bullet points, because, again, it speaks down to those three elements of a robot. 10 kg payload, this is lifting capacity, 1.2 meter horizontal reach, max speed, one meter per second. But we would put an asterisk there because, as we've learned, speed is relative to the human risk, which may be prevalent on a specific application with a risk assessment. So if you've got a human very close, with maybe a sharp tool and the human's head may be exposed, your max speed will need to be less than that based on the risk assessment and the PFL input. So we're going to touch a little bit on simplicity. And remember, the path you're teaching of the collaborative robot gives you the basic parameters, your Cartesian points in space. But you still need some type of an input, a master input to do any type of program modifications or adjustments, just like you have on an HMI, on every machine you have in your plant. In robot terms, that's always called a teach pendant. This is Yaskawa's new smart pendant. And one of the things that we learn from customers is we don't want this pendant to be that's been the quote unquote robot pendant for decades, with a lot of buttons that looks like a dashboard cockpit on a 737. It's very intimidating to operators. So we put it more into a tablet form that visually looks very close to a Windows or a computer screen, very simple drop down menus, a lot of help Windows that open up and can help guide customers through the process. But one of the unique things that we developed, and this is first to the market, is we put an IMU, an inertial measurement unit, think of a gyroscope. Because in the old robot terms, you always had to know where you were in relation to the robot. With the IMU, that's negated. So if you circle around the robot, you can jog the robot in very simple human terms, left, right, forward, back. This is kind of a game changer. And it's something that again, customers are embracing because again, we're making the robot very simple to interact with. So shifting forward, where are applications in contract packaging for collaborative robots? And I apologize. I've been into a lot of facilities. I've seen a lot of these applications. If I missed some, I'd love to know where else they can play. But I would assume most of these are what you're experiencing right now. If you look at the visual, you'll see some cells are caged, some are open. So again, it depends on the application. A couple things I'll leave you with here to think about. Number one, you see some fixed automation there at the end of the lines. I mean, there's nothing against fixed automation, non-robotic. But one of the facets of robotic solution is it's defined as a redeployable asset, which means you can simply redeploy that robot for other functions in the future by modifying the tool and or the program. It's a lot more flexible to do and it's a lot more cost advantageous to do, not as restrictive. We've seen a couple of our partners do some unique things in contract packaging by using robots to automatically depalitize pallets and cut the top of the cases off pallets for preparation for secondary packaging. So you can start to think outside the box a little bit. There's nothing wrong with a bad question because likely it's been thought about and maybe even deployed with a robotic solution. So to wrap up, who we are, Yaskawa Electric. We are now 103 years of innovation. Innovation is our core. We have an innovation center in Japan. We have an innovation center in the United States and Texas. And that's really our core DNA, is innovation of new technology. We are the number one global share leader in robotics in AC servo drives and also in inverters. Headquartered in Kitakyushu, Japan, but our U.S. facility is headquartered in beautiful tropical Miami's Berg, Ohio, just south of Dayton, Ohio, where we house about 650 employees and then we have 10 facilities throughout the Americas. Before we get to questions, just a quick plug. If anyone will be attending PAC Expo in Chicago next month, we'd welcome hosting you, Christine and I at our Yaskawa booth. This is what we call our pub. It is actual collaborative robot with two different drafts of beer on tap. And you can walk up in a friendly environment and chat with the robot. And the bartender will serve you the beer of your choice. So that is an open invitation to stop on by. And again, thank you for your time and attention. Hopefully you found some information worthwhile. Jack, thank you. Very interesting, fascinating presentation. We appreciate that. Being a beer connoisseur, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to stop by your booth and check it out. So thank you very much for that offer. We have some time for a few questions here. Jack, you talk about the portability, the employability of robotic systems, these robotic systems. Can you give us a sense of what exactly is that mean? Are we talking line configuration has to be set to be able to redeploy or is it pretty open-ended? That's a good question, Ron. Actually, I'd look at a two-fold. On a collaborative robot, because of its size, it's a smaller robot, it can actually be deployed on a portable car, removable handle. You'd have to lock it into position because it's, again, looking for its coordinates in space, XYZ. But many times it can be just by a hand pulled and guided just like a walkie-through-a-plant and put into position at another location as long as you secure it with locking casters and a position reference point like a drop pin. Very easy to redeploy. But if you get into a main process line, let's say you've got six to eight different packaging machines, but that production line goes away, but the robot itself can be simply picked up, removed, and then reintegrated into another complete line. As you've seen, if you visit a lot of contract-packed manufacturers, flexibility and be able to replace equipment is very critical. One of the questions, again, with any piece of machinery and robotics is that, is the time to retool and to set up and to configure. Can you give us a sense? Again, I'm sure each application is different, but can you give us a sense of what that looks like, how often you might have to retool, what's going to be the considerations there? Okay. The tooling is one of the most important facets of any robotic application because it's the surface contact to pick and manipulate the product itself. That could be in a form of a vacuum tool, a clamp tool, a fork tool, multiple tools. The tooling itself is now more readily available. There are many companies that exist only to provide the end-of-arm end-effectors for robots. One of the services we provide to customers is if they have an application, we can point them to a library of tooling suppliers. There are several that make tools specifically to the collaborative robots. It's almost a plug-and-play type of application. For reprogramming a robot, it really depends on the application. But in general terms, it could be done same day, one or two days. It's a very efficient process to reprogram a robot. You had some applications. You had a quality control application. Curiosity is being asked, what exactly have you seen in those kind of applications? What are the quality control examples? It's a good question. There are a variety of different levels of quality control. It could be volumetric control. It could be weight. It could be visual. It could be for presence of labels, things of that nature. The robots can be utilized to pick product, let's say off of a line. You can use 2D cameras and you can inspect for presence of a product, label, RFID tag, anything of that nature. Robots with vision can ascertain to a limitation inferior quality of products coming down a line. You can use 2D vision, which can affect if there's a product crush, maybe a missing flap, damage to an actual food product, could be a cookie or a cracker. We do a wide variety of quality control inspections in relation to a robot, ultimately to prevent that damaged product or non-standard product to be finally packaged. One of the other questions coming through is the maintenance and downtime aspects. Every piece of machinery needs some kind of PM maintenance. Can you give us a sense of are the robots, collaborative robots needing a little bit more? Is there specific recommendations on PMs, things like that that you can offer? Sure. In our terms, our collaborative robot is basically has the same Yaskawa servers that our industrial robot family has. Robots in general have what's called an average mean time between failure, which an industrial robot is well over 60,000 hours in a collaborative robot. It's probably going to be in the 30 to 40,000 hour range from a preventive maintenance interaction standpoint. Generally, we recommend anywhere between 8,000 to 12,000 hours of operation would be your first scheduled preventive maintenance interval. Prior to that, it's basically just monitoring lubrication levels. And if there's any chronic faults or error codes based on overloading or anything like that. But ultimately by definition, the robot would generally have the highest uptime of any piece of equipment in your plant based on its utilization of servo draft technology. The question coming through, what do you see as the biggest hurdle of implementing these robotic lab or robot systems today? Where are you guys facing? What are the big questions? What are the hurdles you guys seem to have to overcome? That's a great question. I didn't state this in the presentation, but to be in full transparency, there's an erroneous perception somewhat communicated by some of the selling channels of collaborative robots to customers that quote unquote, you never need a safety fence. And that would be one of the biggest challenges because unfortunately, many customers have that perception and they believe that we just deploy this robot and I never need a safety fence. Now in many applications, you may not need a safety fence, but I go back to the value of a risk assessment because each and every application is different. So we want to protect the operators and you want to apply safety measures where it's important. The second challenge in the collaborative robot market is speed, reach, capacity because again, it's force, it's input. So if I've got a 10 kg robot, I'm only able to go so fast. And because of the horsepower drive, I can only contact someone so abruptly with so much force. But if I'm in a 20 or 30 or 50 kg robot, it's like the difference between a ball peen hammer and a sledge hammer, correct? Same motion, but you're going to feel it impact a lot more. So when we utilize the power force limiting collaborative robot, you're limited on how fast you can go, which sometimes does not meet the requirement of packaging because you have to package faster. So for a PFL collaborative robot, that's another hurdle. We have solutions in our industrial family that we can do in other modes of collaboration with light curtains and floor skinners, but on a PFL mode, you're limited to how fast you can go, which is directly tied into production rate. I'd say those are the two biggest challenges right now. Okay, great. In your world here on the trends, do you see the, what is the trend on collaborative robots such as full automation robots? Which one do you see people are adopting quicker, sooner? Is there any trend there? Yes, there are, Ron. Actually, both in market segments are trending up at an aggressive rate. There's no, there's no debate on that topic. The collaborative market, simply by its newness, is a much more rapid growth rate, and there's more discussion about it. But hand in hand with that, there's still an evolution of the safety codes relative to collaborative robots. One of our engineers at our facility serves on the Global RIA Collaborative Safety Board. So he's involved with helping write those safety standards, and they are evolving simply because there's been some injuries. So keep that in mind. You'll start to see it plateau a little bit. There's more and more people attempting to get into the collaborative market. And unfortunately, some of the robots are not what we would define as industrial duty. They just don't have the robustness, the longevity, the quality. So it's a very dynamic market. Industrial robotics continue to grow and they will continue to grow overall. So the rise of the co-bots, I would redefine that as rise of robots in general. It's going to be continually growing industry. Would it be safe to say you could see a doubling of the collaborative robots in use in a year, two years? I would say in three to five years you'll probably see a double. Okay, thank you. How would you find a robotic integrator? You talked about using a robotic integrator. How would one go about finding that person? That's another good question. In a prior life I served as a robotic integrator. There's good, there's medium, and there's bad ones out there. We all know, just like any other equipment manufacturer. One of the things we do at Yaskawa is we try to vet that. We have a whole matrix of all of our integrators. So when an end customer, and I interact with end customers daily, when they ask about an application and who would be a good candidate, we can impartially direct them to two or three or four that they can evaluate themselves. It helps with that, the process. I would look for experience in a certain industry. If they're looking for carton packing, case packing, depalitizing, ask for some experience. And they've done something similar and they share videos. It's hard to go into a third-party customer to see something anymore because of IP, but it's certainly good to get their profile and history. And I would also check on their size if they have the bandwidth, both in engineering and production and project management, etc. The third question I'd ask is, how many years have they been doing robotics? If it's just one or two years, may be a little new. Not that that's a bad thing, but there's a lot of history and knowledge that needs to be applied for a successful robotic application. So I think history would be another good question. Thank you. You've seen the good, you've seen the bad. Can you give us kind of a sense of the best of practice of somebody wanting to start out and move into this space? Is there some guidance you could give them? Say, hey, how would you proceed? Obviously, attending today's webinar is a great start, but how do you go from here? From an in-customer perspective, the first thing is eyes-on. In this industry, there is no such thing as a quote-unquote common case pack application. There are so many variables. It's best to get some trained eyes-on and start a relationship that someone with experience can help guide them, make valid suggestions, bring up valid objections, discuss the potential pitfalls, but ultimately start to collect the data and sift the data on the application. There's a lot of missing things that happen even in very good integrator's eyes that variation in product profiles, new products that are coming that maybe weren't addressed. Are they unskilled on a second or third shift? There are so many variables that go into a successful project. I would really encourage anyone who is looking at their first robotic project to pick the low-hanging fruit first, something that is a simpler approach, not a complex approach, because you want to have a success and build on that and permeate it within their organization. Okay. Thank you very much. Jack, this will come back to the financials. You did touch on this a bit, but what are you seeing as a typical ROI in a simple collaborative robot situation, somebody's done the due diligence, whatever? What is an ROI people can expect, typically, if they're going to these systems? If it's a two or more shift application, Ron, we've generally seen ROIs under 24 months, under two years, which by most standards are acceptable. 18 months is usually maybe a benchmark. The most aggressive I've seen is 11 to 12 months, which are very tough to achieve, but a lot on the 3PO logistics side, they're out three to four years on the acceptable ROIs. So that's the exciting facet as far as collaborative robots, because I think there's a lot more opportunity for justifiable payback because of the sheer cost of labor these days. Very good. Thank you. Well, Jack, I appreciate very much taking the time today to present this information. It was excellent. Again, reminding everybody is on the call on the webinar. This webinar will be posted on our website at contractpackaging.org within a few days, and we look forward to you viewing it there. Jack, we look forward to seeing you at Pack Expo. Those of you of CPA will also be at Pack Expo at booth 5801 in North Hall. We look to invite you to stop by MCS also. Thank you all for attending, and thank you, Jack, again. Thank you, Ron. I appreciate your opportunity, and everyone have a great day. Thank you. Take care, everybody. All right. Bye-bye.