 and the proposed document or the report of the BBI. I will be speaking to political analyst and the governance consultant, Anita Kirote. Also be joined later in this broadcast by an advocate, Jerusa Michael. She will help us to understand legally what should we know in regards to these BBI reports. Good morning. Good morning, Hilaari. How are you? I'm good, thank you for having me. You welcome. You know, the last time you are here, We were talking more of COVID-19 cases. We also spoke of the political heat that was there. And since things are coming higher and higher, today the delegation or the group and I hear tangatanga will not be invited allegations. So I don't know what will happen in Aynvasha for this particular retreat. But even so, how have you been coping with the situation in regards to the BBI launch throughout the week? How has it been for you? For me, because you began by talking about COVID, I'm surprised we are having still these ambiguous and big meetings at a time whereby COVID cases are going high. And the CS Mutai Kaguye is saying that we are flaunting all the rules. Yes, as you can see, it's the political divide that's doing it. So actually the guy who said let's go to Tanzania, say we go the Magufuliwe and I saw he was praying for us. Anyway, on to BBI, I saw the various speeches by the various leaders in the political divide in this country and the way I'm looking at it, there were certain reservations. Someone once told me that Garia PSV kusangi makosa. So anything that is public, the constitution, the BBI, the worker draft, all these things that we've been seeing in this country, all of them, I mean it is very fake to say that the document is perfect. There must be a few loopholes here and there. And the question is will we navigate the loopholes? And from where I stand, the BBI committee is still receiving proposals from the Kenyans. So if you still want something added, if you still want something to be subtracted, there is still room for improvement. Actually there was a meeting yesterday by Senators and they are emerged a divide. Those that felt the current proposal that is standing, it should remain and there should not be like, I see yungezewe, let's go the way it is. Others feel like no, if we have to allow Kenyans to vote for BBI, we need it to be changed right now. Do you think the current report should be amended before it has been voted? For me, I think we should continue talking and if there is room for amendment, yes, let's go with that. And also I feel like if BBI is building bridges as it says it is, then there should be no exclusion. So when I hear Senators are meeting in Naivasha and some are not invited and some, if it was the leadership that's another case, but if it's all Senators, then let's all Senators be invited. I mean, we live in a country whereby we respect the rules of the minority. So even if the majority has claimed or all those who were invited to the Naivasha retreat, all of them support BBI, I believe the likes of those who are called Tanga Tanga should also have been invited so that we have a contrary opinion. Just like during the division of revenue bill, we had a joint committee, you remember we had a joint committee of about 12 Senators from all divide. So I believe also the BBI should have done the same thing. All right. And in the same vein, we have some clerics from Mount Kenya. They feel like the current people who have been selected or who have been delegated to spearhead these building bridges initiative and not persons of integrity. And they feel maybe the church should have been given the priority or should have been the people who would be spearheading this. What's your take on this? When I look at Mount Kenya, right now I'm seeing a lot of divisions. And if you remember, there were even elders who went to Bondo. Then another crop of elders said they are the real elders and they denounced those who went to Bondo. Then I've seen Captain Koumu who is a member of the Elders Club. I've seen him with ANC party leader Musalia Mudavadi. I mean it's very cold. You wonder are we still building, is it the building bridges that is taking him from one presidential aspiranta to another or is it being genuine? So for me, I think the church has always played a crucial role in this country. If you remember during the 1992 multi party, sorry, the fight for the multi party, to have more parties in this Kenya and reappealing of section 2A of the Constitution of Kenya. So when I look at it, that the church has a crucial role to play but the question is which are these church leaders, church elders that have come up and spoken with the same appeal that we used to see the likes of Reverend Joya speaking. So you cannot be invited to the table if we don't see you speaking about crucial issues. These are negotiated spaces and we need to see you in the forefront. So I think it's time the church took up the mantle but if it doesn't take up the mantle elders and other konmen will rise up and claim stakes. Before we get to the reservations that were raised by the deputy president and of course even ANC Party leader Musali Mudavadi when the BBI was being launched or the report was being launched, there's also something that has emerged over the weekend that is we have seen the council of governors also they have a concern later. So there has been like a change of mind in regards to what they had proposed during the research and the analysis and the evolution of the report. Now they feel like there's something missing and this is the revenue allocation. If things go the BBI way the governors are saying we will oppose it. How do you feel about this? I feel most of the proposals I saw being table by the COG were revolving of course around revenue and currently we know the minimum shareable revenue is at 15% and the BBI proposes a raise of the minimum from 15% to 35% which is all good on paper. However when you look at the channels in which pan is disbanded from the national treasury the council of governors and for that matter governors do not receive a direct check from the consolidated fund. What happens is the money moves to national treasury then it moves to the governors which means there is usually a time lap and if you talk to people at the county they tell you sometimes you go 3 months without being paid and we are not even considering the division this was before the division of revenue bill the channel through which money was moving was crazy. So for me when I look at it from that angle I'd say the COG have a right to complain but that clause is introduced then it is no yes you might have more money it's like having more salary but you receive it it's like doing a contract you want to be paid in one year and then you are paid in two years I mean there is the time value of money if you wanted to develop something and that's one of the biggest governors are having you want to develop a school for example and when the money comes in too late you decided building this school in two months and you realize no so you return the money when the auditor general comes but you return this money was meant for development governors are only paying salaries yes they are only paying salaries because you do not give them enough money in time to complete big major project so you might raise the revenue from 15% to 35% but quaground it will be completely different we will be diving deeper into that when we come to one of the reservations and that was devolution under allocation of resources as raised by the deputy president William Ruto but now let's go to the reservations they had on Monday during the launch of the BBI and what is to begin with the ANC party leader Musaile Mudavadi if we could have what he said in regards to the judiciary because the question has been raised on the proposal to have the ombudsman appointed by the president if we could have that clip or the bite by the ANC party leader Musaile Mudavadi to highlight just one or two because my understanding is that the launch is giving us an opportunity to reflect on these issues and then to enrich them so that the same task force that was handling it can take into account issues that may not have been captured appropriately indeed a number of speakers have indicated there may be a few areas that require refining you explain see there are some areas and I want to highlight just one or two because my understanding is that the launch is giving us an opportunity to reflect on these issues and then to enrich them so that the same task force that was handling it can take into account issues that may not have been captured appropriately indeed a number of speakers have indicated there may be a few areas that require refining you explain see I think the strength of the senate needs to be looked at again when it comes to matters devolution after reading it I think the articles that have been touched tend to remove or to downgrade the role of senate when it comes to allocation of resources to the counties Senate is the anchor to devolution I think that requires a review not a rejection of the document but a review you explain see the judiciary is independent there is a very good provision recommending the appointment of the ombudsman to handle the issues of the judiciary I think that is good however I strongly believe that in order to enhance the independence of the judiciary that appointment should be made by the chief justice Your Excellency Your Excellency I'm making these points so that they can be looked at you have clearly had what he was saying in regards to the allocation and of course later he spoke about the judiciary and that's our concern if the ombudsman will be appointed by the president do you think it will be retrogressive in terms of justice when I look at the office of the ombudsman that's the office of the administrative justice most of the cases or rather what comes before the ombudsman are complaints against the MDAs ministries department and agencies which directly if you look at it they fall directly under the executive arm of government which is the presidency so if you want the ombudsman to be appointed by the president for me I feel like there is a conflict of interest because you cannot bite the hand that feeds you when the ombudsman is appointed by the Judiciary Service Commission I mean it's way better because they are more accountable to the judiciary than the executive so the ombudsman as a quote in quote a watchdog of the government ministries department and agencies cannot be appointed by the president it's appointed by the president it shows it will be a weak body those bodies that are just a walk over by design so for me I feel like the office of the ombudsman is one of the biggest gains we gained in the constitution and it should continue being a preserve of the Judicial Service Commission I also want us to listen into what the deputy president had to say in regards to the ombudsman being appointed by the president there is so much into it and of course we will have to let's listen into what deputy president had to say then we move forward from there to have an ombudsman appointed by the executive into the judiciary in my respectful submission is a derogation from the independence of the judiciary it to have an ombudsman what has been raised by deputy president looking back into this particular regime that we have had for say 7 years or even 8 years depending the jubilee party and how the judiciary has been will it be moving backwards or will it be moving forward okay there is a major concern under which the jubilee government for that matter has been handling and treating the judiciary in terms of remember this are independent arms of the government the judiciary, the legislature and the executive so the jubilee government has been accused while they should be independent the executive arm of government has been seen to be meddling not only the judiciary but also the legislature you can remember the whole reshuffling and the weakening of parliament so when you look at the judiciary there are still advisory orders that maragas been putting forward to no avail whereby the constitution clearly states what the executive and for that matter the president should go ahead and do you can remember the 2 thirds gender rule and where he called for the dissolution of parliament because he felt that he has reached the end in terms of negotiation you can remember there are about 40 judges 41 judges 41 minus 1 because 40 judges who are now supposed to be appointed that has been ignored so the judiciary remember there are also caught orders there have been numerous caught orders to the executive to no avail some have succeeded like the huduma number and some have not but there is a general feel and disrespect especially if you look at civil society because civil society has been an advocate of the judiciary or a voice of the judiciary for a long time if you look at civil society most of them are the likes of amnesty international transparency international most of them have a background in having worked either for the judiciary or being advocates of the high court or an expert in the legal field and there have been claims that the executive has watered down the judiciary you can remember even in terms of a budget if you don't have a budget you are really crippled and if you can remember there is a time maraga issued a statement and said hey I don't have money and you remember someone taking it out of context when he was saying he doesn't even have a car some arms of government or the national assembly have masides bens maraga does not have masides bens if you can remember some of those claims that came up so the way I am looking at it I am hoping maybe with the coming of the next CJ that things will be different but the way I am looking at it the executive has been a thon in the foot of the judiciary there has been a delay in appointing the 40 judges and now there comes a point where if the BBI goes through with the current status it is we will have the ombudsman having been appointed by the president now do you think there is something being cupped there politically speaking politically speaking I did not read much into it because currently where we speak we have not been given even a schedule on when the referendum will come I saw an interview where Paul Mwangi said that even February is possible but statistics show that if we were to have a referendum today it will be around August 21st also you can remember the status of the IBC in terms of money where IBC is saying this is the amount of money which would require you to hold a referendum and Rayla saying no that's too much money you can remember the back and forth so for me I'd take it lightly alright thank you so much for keeping us company and staying with us we are speaking to our matters regards to BBI and the reservations that were raised by our leaders and that is the deputy president and ANC party leader Musalia Mudavadi by Jerusa she's an advocate and of course she will help us to understand really what does it mean for an ombudsman being appointed by the president because all we've had is from the politicians so maybe legally she can be of good help to us to understand really is it a bad thing, is it a good thing good morning Jerusa good morning, how are you today? I'm very well thank you for joining us thank you so much about the BBI reservations by our politicians of course we have other voices of Kenyans of what they feel about the BBI of which they will never be heard unless they have been given voices by our externalists of course but now we have leaders who have been speaking and we've heard complaints and reservations from our leaders and what deputy president William Ruto said he said that it will it will interfere with the judicial performance as well as its independence so what you take on this okay so I think we need to be able every lawyer I'm an advocate and I think in every Kenyan the judiciary or rather the independence of the judiciary has to be safeguarded I think it's something that everyone agrees on the drafters of the BBI are lawyers and believe you me no one wants to have a matter whereby it's been decided by judge who is not independent so let me start from the point where everyone wants an independent judiciary from the most junior person to the most senior person because at any time anyone can have a claim you see there are so many issues and we need the courts even the president himself at some point they need the courts so the courts are actually very important to go and look at the wording of rather the role of the ombudsman the ombudsman is being appointed by the president okay and he has to be approved by the national assembly so there is we have the members of parliament are our representatives and so where we have the ombudsman's appointment having to be approved by the national assembly then we have a say in determining who is the ombudsman number two if we are talking about the independence of the judiciary the ombudsman does not have any power to discipline any judge or magistrate does not have any powers to order the removal of any judge magistrate or any judicial officer whatsoever they have been given a role of receiving complaints from the public receiving complaints against judicial officers and giving recommendations to the judicial service commission then the judicial service commission after they receive those recommendations from the office of the ombudsman then they can act on them so the office of the ombudsman is not as powerful as Kenyans are putting it he is not so powerful he will receive the complaints listen to them the office will analyze the complaints and then eventually whatever recommendations he has he has to forward them to the JSC the judicial service commission is the body that oversees matters judges, magistrates and that kind of thing number two there is an issue that has been raised that the office of the ombudsman now being appointed by the executive probably actually the recommendation was we wish it was the chief justice or even others are saying they wish it was the JSC that was performing that role let us look at the membership of the JSC the JSC consists of constitutes of representatives from the judicial fraternity basically we have a representative from supreme court from the court of appeal from judges we have a lawyer we have a magistrate we have 5 representatives already from the judiciary so we don't basically the public and if we have now the judiciary itself again taking the point appointing this over Sia then actually we should be asking ourselves the judiciary it's supposed to be independent we agree but it should not be independent from Kenyans let's have someone from outside just one person at the JSC and bring his recommendations there to a JSC that is populated with judges and magistrates someone who is appointed from even just an outsider yes the executive it's the president who has just appointed him but what powers does he have the powers that he has cannot in any way interfere with the independence of the judiciary so that is my take on that and I think we need to be able to read this BBI report and understand it because the ombudsman does not have that much power is being put out there you have clearly said he has no power he has been approved by the parliament having been appointed by the executive all these are politicians and we know in our country we have a problem of corruption do you think when he goes there and the corruption case comes to court there won't be questions or something to do with it's now payback you can't monitor this judge we give you that position because that's the thing that happens we give you that position we are the one who put you there yes he has been appointed and I want just to put you back a bit all judges are actually appointed by who eventually the president they make the recommendations the JSC makes the recommendation and then the president makes the appointment even the chief justice himself the JSC makes the recommendation the president makes the appointment what did Maraga do last election he nullified those elections the first round so I don't think when you talk about a corruption case that corruption case will go to court it will be determined by a court of competent jurisdiction okay let's say in the case scenario where Hillary you're not satisfied you're not happy with the outcome of that of the judgment that has been given and so you're saying let's make a complaint to the ombudsman because we appointed him he's going to say the judge acted badly there's the law, there's a judgment there are avenues for appeal evidence of corruption corrupting the judge just look at it do you think there's a room for compromise really and even when the ombudsman decides okay let me support my executive at National Assembly people and say this judge was bad when he was handling this case he did something bad he can't make the choice to remove him or punish him in any way he will still have to tell the JSC someone came he had a case of corruption he complained to me and I've seen this judge handled this case poorly or he was corrupt then the JSC will re-look at the recommendations and the whole case again and the ombudsman will actually be sits also in the JSC they will re-look at it and then they will make a determination together alright fair enough we moved to a different concern we see as the electoral agency and the deputy president gave a scenario he gave an analogy of the football team where he said how fair will a league be where a referee is appointed by teams and not all the teams actually if we could listen into what he had to say in regards to the electoral process or the agency the recommendations that I have read say that political parties participate in the appointment of commissioners to IEBC my brother Ray Laudinga is good at football so let me try to ask how fair will be a league where the referee is appointed by teams and not all the teams some teams how fair will this league be that's the question how fair will that league be having the IEBC having been a point chosen or whatever by political parties politically speaking when I saw that I remember after that the DP was actually because of course he was saying it in a place whereby I believe majority of the people who are invited are supporting BBI so technically saying anything against BBI was was not in good light for me I actually think the deputy president is asking a very valid question which I'm actually surprised that the ORPP has not come out and talked about this because under what criteria do you actually come and say these are the teams or this is the coalition that's going to choose the IEBC I'm yet to see the some stance over form whereby we need to see the actual procedures under which we are going to get these commissioners so I think for me that's a very loophole and a recipe for chaos because how again do you say that the IEBC is independent and even when it comes to the ground in terms of appointment of agents whereby the commissioners are and in most cases what we see is that the commissioners end up to be politicians or rather people who've been in politics before people who will be trusted a person Baba trust a person Uhuru trust or a person that Ruto trust hypothetically so for me I think it's a recipe for chaos because we still need to have that already the judiciary is of questionable stand as we speak in terms of even composition we remember the legs of Nkada already some commissioners left Roslina Khombe they left they've yet to be replaced yet they were still drawing salaries from the IEBC so for me I believe we are playing politics with important issues Jerusa how independent will IEBC be because it's supposed to be independent okay so this is my take how many political parties do we have we have over 3000 registered political parties yes we do 69 we have over 3000 registered political parties most of them are not active most of them do not receive funds from the political parties fund they do not because again even the number of members of parliament that that you elect into parliament it determines whether you're going to receive funding or that kind of thing or the number of elected leaders you basically have there are very many people just form political parties maybe you know for a campaign you find there are so many dominant political parties and I'll urge my sister to go into check the register there are so many dominant political parties I belong to Taduia land so I actually know how many political parties there are IEBC countries you just need to recheck those funds they are not more than and of course these political parties have young people because actually our response should be how even our young people are being impacted in this either negatively or positively so basically when it comes to the question of no political parties are nominating or rather some of the people being members you know have been appointed by the political parties we need to look at the political parties that are actually political parties in the sense of the word that have you know membership and leaders and a proper constitution and functioning and that are actually being funded by the political parties fund so these people who are going to now be nominated into the IBC it's four so basically let's say for example the four biggest political parties and I think Taduia lands will also somehow be part of it so these are representatives of those parties and then there are other commissioners so if you find that the most election battles are usually between the big wigs the parties that we know it will be a fight between probably now before I'm so sure the structure will change towards the next election probably but we have you know NASA and we have Jubilee maybe Kano and then we have the other one maybe third way alliance let me put it there so we have four representatives such that even when that you know the commissioners and I think this is what the drafters of the constitution of the BBI so when they were giving that report remember it's just a report people who still have to analyze it it still has to go through very many stages before we can actually go into a referendum for it so today the election it was eventually the race comes down to Huru and Raila in the decision making organ the ones you know the final the same way there is an agent at the polling station there is an agent at the return in constituency level at the county level there is an agent for each party the decision making body the one that will declare election you have a representative and you have a representative so that means it's only equality that will be because now you will be looking at yes how many have come from Kitui county how many have come from Muranga county this is what has come everyone the commissioners are there they are seen together with the other team so that the Jubilee appointee will not sit down and see someone tampering it to put Nasa had 100 votes when the ones that have come in are 40 and vice versa so there is an issue of the people who usually say kimabiyo every time it has been stolen they actually trained to put in representatives such that your representative is there and they are actually able to keep track they are part of the system they know what is happening they know what votes are coming in and they know how they are going they are relaying the information to the public ok, in the interest of time let's look to another concern and this was the police service and the deputy president was saying if the seas is actually a derogation the recommendation will have a police counsel chaired by the seas is actually a derogation actually we want to listen into that bite on matters police service let's hear what the deputy president had to say issue the third issue your excellency issue the third issue your excellency the independence of our police force the 2010 constitution was very clear that the police must act independently of any politicians whether they are in government or in the opposition to recommend that we will have a police counsel chaired by a seas is actually a derogation from the independence of the police Anita the past few months we have seen the campaigns that began early we saw the police being used to tear gas the people who went to listen to our politicians and I remember there has been many questions on why are police being used we know they are supposed to maintain order as it is in their motto they are supposed to maintain order and now we saw them dispass young people who have gathered to listen into what the leaders have to say and now according to the president things are changing now will we have the independence of police in your opinion for me to claim actually that the police are independent faulty the police are should and are royal to the state in terms of the state has control of monopoly they legitimate monopoly over violence and that comes of course in terms of maintaining peace and order so the way I look at the BBI report and the recommendation of our police counsel chaired by a seas technically that is what is still happening if you look at P.S. or claims that for example P.S. Kibishu has interfered with ABCD using the police first I mean all the administration is under the office of the president but still under the ministry of interior so technically it has been happening and it's very fallacious to say there is an independent police what do you mean an independent police I mean if the police are out there controlling traffic it's coming from obviously a command center and the C.S. and the P.S. are involved in every aspect in the maintenance of law and order what perhaps maybe is being articulated and is being brought forth perhaps I think is the interference in the opposition whereby a particular leader can hold rallies the way they want yet another one is subjected to I don't know you have to apply but ideally in law it is there but whereby you are told you have to apply 14 days before you have to be the number of people have to be regulated ETC for me I think this was more of sort of personal attack disguised as an issue so the way I look at it I think it has been happening of course there is no term like police commission is just the introduction of terms but in real reality and introspectively when you look at it the police have always had one command center and it's under the P.S. Alright Jerusha do you think this is a confirmation of what has been going on actually at least now I agree with her for some you know I'm not happy to keep this agree so at least you know and I'm just going to top up what she has just said so basically the ministry of interior is concerned with security and the security of the country and the police are supposed to be providing security to the country so basically those two things go hand in hand so actually me what I would say and I'll just be very brief on it I think the police actually it's not even a derogation I think it's an upgrade I think to have a police counseler that will actually sit and you know articulate their matters to a cabinet secretary you know the cabinet secretary takes it to the president eventually articulate their matters you know talk about what is happening in the country security issues I think in my very sincere opinion it's an upgrade of the police service so that would mean if this BBI goes through we won't see cases of police brutality or people being clobbered anyway in how the activists or demonstrators in town because this will happen we hope so because again I want to talk about people as individuals the BBI is called BBS stands for Building Bridges Initiative it is something that is supposed to unite the country it is supposed to bring the country together but as we speak are we really united you saw someone articulate during the launch of the BBI itself people became hostile towards each other and yet it's something that is supposed to be to be uniting us so in as much as it's supposed to be uniting us people are different individuals have different characters different morals moral standings and that kind of thing so we cannot and that is why even on the issue of BBI even though we are saying we want and contested we hope to have and contested referendum it's not easy to have a document that pleases everyone and Hilary I want to tell you this you see even the assassions by the deputy president and every other member of the camp that is actually opposing this documenter they have picked picked what is suitable for them rather what is actually the same way in the 2010 constitution I think the 2010 constitution is a very very progressive document that we had as a country but there were people who are still opposing it why they were talking about we are legalizing abortion and churches even came in through and yet it's just the close of if it's necessary if someone is dying then it's necessary but you find that you pick what is going to and let me just give you an example someone we were just speaking to someone and they talked about the Bible even during BBI lodge someone who said uru uru kitaka klosia kukuna BBI wengi iko kwa BBI liya uki pata klosia monog iko kitaka klosia monogami na fukuna BBI moja iko kwa BBI liya you understand what I'm saying so also in the Bible if Hilary you want maybe let's say Kitambu when you are young there's a chapter in the Bible that says msinimane so if you go and tell somebody the Bible says msinimane you're choosing what you want to suit your needs at that moment but you're not reading what is up in that Bible what is after that verse and the same preachers do that so you find that everyone this document cannot please everyone apart from these small things not small issues there are issues that I hope will be addressed because again I hope for this thing is supposed to bring unity I hope people will be able to sit the different camps sit down and actually talk about these issues and see where they can actually come to a point where there is an agreement by all the parties but it cannot please everyone the other provisions of that document just picking have you read the whole document and seen the good things that are there Hila is still on the police commission for me I think it also brings a paradigm shift in thinking in terms of how we've been handling the police remember we have the police also when you look at police reforms how the police have been trained what happens in Kigancho now they've been talk of mental awareness we've always looked at you know what let's have Aipoa independent police oversight authority that we look into the conduct of the police for the first time we are saying we want now to listen to you we are not treating you as negatives as been the shift but now as positive now we want to listen to you and what we have to say before you commit the act before you commit the brutality which you've been accused of and being brought to Aipoa we are saying what are your issues what are your housing and remember public servants are not allowed to form commission they are not allowed to form trade unions they are not allowed to say now at only can speak for us all these problems we are having and that's what you'll hear you'll hear that oh bad housing poor payment bad remuneration is what is making them take brides for the first time they'll be able to write these issues and sort themselves out and have an ear this year now we'll hear what has to be said alright fair enough lastly we are losing time here they are found in the room and this was in regards to inclusion deputy president spoke of an analogy and I want us to listen into what the president had to say in regards to inclusion of the president the prime minister what who becomes what when and let's listen into what he had to say I am so low I have confessed I am a scientist and I am a bit slow I want you to explain to me in this proposal you have said that in this proposal we will have the president with his running mate they will win or we have candidates they will win an election and then the president will appoint the prime minister and the two deputies from the winning coalition and then we will have the runner up being the leader of opposition now no problem it doesn't matter who it is I have no problem you know let us not personalize there is no problem now the question I am asking myself have we sorted out the winner to call question oh is that so so the president from his side like for example here Kimuña is the prime minister because he is the leader of majority we have Jimi Angweni who is deputy prime minister and maybe Maoka Maurea as one of the deputies so what happens to the whole Nasa brigade together with Musalia and all these other people I mean and I am not saying I am just saying I want to be persuaded forgive me if I am slow forgive me there are so many Kenyans who are Anita have we solved the question of winner take it all and that's what I brought forth in the beginning of the program whereby I was saying it's good enough it's not enough for the BBA to tell us you know what we are going to go this way it's substance of a form so we want to see the exact procedures we will achieve this and since I believe Moses Kurya is an ally of the DPA also brought the same analogy in some form he was saying what stops the president from saying appointing he is the president he will have he decides Moses Kurya from Gatondo south what makes him consider all the provinces you are talking about building bridges initiative you are talking about inclusion you are talking about unity of the country what is the exact criteria for the president to choose all these people you are talking about in the top up I mean there is no actual I mean the powers and that's why most people are claiming that the BBA still brings a lot of power to the president to the presidency in generally because there is nothing that actually compels the president from you are saying you are bringing inclusion but there is nothing that stops him from saying ok you have the leader of the official opposition yet this leader of the official opposition has been the case the leader of the official opposition right now would have been Reila but he does not stand alone remember he had the 6th principle before Munya pulled out he had the 6th principle where will you fit all these people and which criteria will you say will they also the leaders in opposition rather than losing collision will they sit down and decide it will be Musalia no it will be Wetangula there will still be divisions like under what specific criteria do you actually choose again we are still talking about inclusion we are talking about inclusion whereby most political formations most collisions are where we are claiming kikuyu let's come together whereby the majority still incline on the minority which criteria do we have when you are talking about inclusion that someone from northeastern someone from Turkana like Ekuru Awkot will find himself in that specific space that you are talking about so for me it is still talk and it is still political it is legitimizing giving of these specific positions to the presidency and of course also bringing in the higher and fire president can hire and fire some people so for me I still see unless the BBI report because as Jerusa said and we all know we are still talking about it and we are still looking at it unless they come to me and now give me that specific provisions that I know that someone like someone from the coast will actually have a position someone from any corner of this country will have a position someone from Lodwa will have this specific of course someone in the political space I still see if it is a reward to the political class a reward for showing up and let me tell you Kenyans have been showing up people have been showing up to work they are not being paid well we cannot just reward politicians for showing up in general elections and performing this money alright Jerusa have we solved the question have we solved the problem because that was the whole thing about BBI okay let me start from this first how many tribes do you have in Kenya is it 42 47 already 47 already so unless we create positions for 47 prime ministers or you know 47 deputy prime ministers then of course there is a community that will say they have not been represented is that practical but again I will come again to the issue in terms of politics or in terms of general election they are usually the top there is usually the number one the president wins the deputy there is usually a runner up who is following there and another runner up you know there are parties there is knock there is what so basically we are trying to again we cannot cover we just need representatives because we cannot cover all the tribes if we are putting it like that but at least apart from the two people who are making those decisions there are three other who will actually be pulled and remember these people like the prime minister is a member of the national assembly the prime minister is being appointed from the national assembly so that prime minister is already an elected leader okay that prime minister will not start receiving salary of prime minister okay the BBI provides that the report is that and I think right now we need to be talking about because what will go to the referendum is the constitutional amendment bill we know 255 at equal to 255 of the constitution of Kenya the current constitution that we have is that matters touching amendment of the constitution matters touching the issue of devolution and that kind of thing they have to go through a referendum and maybe just let me take this opportunity also to bring in the fact that people have been talking about these bills they can be passed just by a parliament we don't need referendum and that kind of thing it's okay yes we do not need but for the constitutional amendment bill specifically we do need a referendum because the issues that have been the word fund and other things that have been brought in in terms of leadership are the ones that have been mentioned in article 255 of the constitution of Kenya and for those ones you have to go through a referendum for them to be passed the rest are just you know bills that are coming together with the report but what is actually supposed to go through a referendum is the constitutional amendment bill basically so on that still on that issue so the prime minister is and the deputy they are members of parliament they are members of parliament and they are not changing their salary and they can still you know they have been appointed by the president and can also be fired by the president so in terms of creating more in terms of bringing in there is no effect in terms of the finances let me put it like that in terms of the budget it's just an office that has been created but it's an office even if it was not there those funds would still be used and the prime minister will be told we need to dignify the office and he needs a salary again this is a constitutional provision so unless we go for a referendum again because this is a creation of is being created by the constitution any amendment to the constitution on matters of you know powers and that kind of thing there are things that we need to go through a referendum alright we had so many things but apparently we are out of time very fast your final recommendations my final recommendation is to actually ask maybe because I'm from Thadwe it may look biased but for the BBI to actually remember the Punguzamizigo bill when you look the bill purely failed because of political goodwill and lack of political goodwill because we actually went to the counties we've done this process before we were the ones who actually started this thing and moved to where it is and actually brought the idea that hey they can be constitutional reforms and constitutional changes to look at the Punguzamizigo bill which sought to remedy the number actually the number of parliament for me the number of members of parliament for me I'm looking at at the BBI as still an additional expand so we've been with talks with them and there's certain provisions they've taken some like 15% to 35% to the county government inclusion of our development fund and things of that nature but still the elephant in the room has not been tackled which is for me like the national assembly is still overly over over represented and that's how you can see the quality of bills in senate versus the quality of bills in the national assembly so for me I urge Kenyans to still remember Punguzamizigo and to still look at some of those aspects Alright Jeruso you have final words For me what I would say is that Kenyans need to read the BBI as a whole we need to understand the document and I think this is what also the government is going to do rather the BBI task force is going to do let's educate Kenyans the document it's a legal document as a lawyer I will read and understand and see there's a nambudsman here but he doesn't have the power to fire and that kind of thing but the local money who this BBI has been made for most of them will not be able to read that document on their own and understand it and that is why there will be a lot of they will make decisions on what the political class is going to be telling them so if someone loves Ruto and they had Ruto that day they are like you understand and the same way if someone is for the other party for BBI now you'll find them they'll say eh Ruto anongia vibhaya sana when you huro amesema do inafakua so we'll be swayed by what the leaders say I wish we could just have let's have a team that can actually be educated on this document and actually go and represent it to the Kenyans as it is without any bias just explain like a teacher explain the same way we usually say the constitution says this and this article this provides this article this provides this don't even interpret understanding point of view let it actually be printed in Swahili now we need it in Swahili so that everyone can be able to understand this BBI and eventually make a decision that is well informed not swayed by political convictions alright thank you so much ladies and gentlemen and Jerusalem for finding time and trying to speak to our audience out there in regards to the reservations that were made on BBI there are several others you may not have had their voices but there are so many who are also supporting it but of course at the end of the day like the deputy president say maybe there will be a time they will be sitting somewhere and agree to something different and Bakum thank you so much for keeping us company we will be taking a very short break and when we come back it will be time for career talk keep it why in the morning they have been my guest Anita and Kirote political analyst and governance consultant and Jerusha Maiko advocate I don't know whether over high court thank you so much for coming we take that very short break and we will be back soon keep it why in the morning my name is Adreva Hillary