 All right, I promise you this time it's gonna work. I promise you. Tom McCaffrey is a hysterical comedian. He started doing it back in 1999 in Los Angeles. His credits include multiple appearances on VH1's best week ever, Comedy Central's premium blend, Comedy Central's secret stash movie. He's got a Comedy Central record called Invite Them Up. He's been on the A-list. He's got another comedy CD called, I hope I'm saying this right, Lou Diamond Phillips. Did I pronounce that right? Yeah, you did because it's Lou Diamond Phillips, but with a question mark. You also directed the movie Adventures in Comedy, and it's a pleasure to have you on, sir. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. You're in my apartment parking. Yeah, you're in Manhattan, and where are you going to be performing this week? Well, tomorrow I'm doing a showdown in the East Village at this place called Black Cat at 8 p.m. I think it's on Stanton, and then I'm supposed to do Broadway on Saturday, the upstairs room, and that's it for the weekend. And then next week, what's up? Well, one of the reasons I asked you to be on the show is because not only are you a great comic, you had a midlife crisis and decided not to stop doing comedy, but to do something else. What are you in the middle of right now? Well, I started making math, so is that what you're talking about? Yeah. I enrolled in law school in 2015, so that was definitely a midlife crisis. But I think it was a healthy one, you know, like midlife, it can be worse than going back to school to get a law degree. Now, you were born in 1973. Yes. So I was 41 when I got into law school, and was 42 when I started. 42 when you started law school. I just turned yet. Okay. How many peers in law school are your age? Not many, I found. Emotionally, there's a lot. That was definitely one of the eye-opening experiences, because I didn't go in thinking that everyone would be my age. But it kind of brought into focus just how old I was, because I feel like in comedy, you're around people who are older, but no one acts their age. Everyone's very acting like they're not their age. So when I was around like 23-year-olds, like they acted weird towards like me being in like my early 40s, they made it be clear that it was like weird to them that I was like around them. But in comedy, I never had, you know, I mean, like when you're in comedy, you know, I would be like 40 and I'd be like a 23-year-old girl who was a fan of comedy, and you being 40 is not a big deal to them. But in law school, like a girl who's in law school, a 42-year-old guy, that is a big deal to them. And they're like, they think it's weird. And why isn't it weird? It is weird. I guess I just did, you know, you know, comedy and like showbiz, it's like not a normal world, so you're not really getting the real experience of the world. You know what I mean? The people you're around aren't a good kind of like, you know, representation of the culture out there. So it kind of was a wake-up call when I got there to how old I actually was. I was like, oh yeah, like I'm not really young. Are you older than any of your teachers, any of your professors? Yeah, definitely. I think I had a professor this semester who, I think he's 40, so he's like a few years younger than me. And that was weird because, you know, they get mad at you sometimes, like the class, you know? So it's weird to be like, to being kind of like reprimanded by someone who's like eight years younger than you. And they're younger, but they're like older because they're mature, you know? You're talking about the teachers or you're talking about the teachers? I'm talking about the professors, yeah. Like they're 35, but they're like, I'm a soft 40. I was a soft 42. I hadn't really, I was very sheltered and being in comedy didn't, you know, didn't make me mature. You know, I mean, that's kind of why I was doing it because I didn't want to grow up. But then law school is definitely like an environment where you should be grown up kind of, you know, even though it's not like that I'm surrounded by millennials who are not very mature, but. So the average. Go ahead, go ahead. The average, I think they told me the day I got there, the dean said the average age of an incoming class was 28. All right. So I met, there are people that are older than me. There are some people that are older than me and there, I would meet people who were like 30 who were like, they would talk about how old they were, you know, like they'd be like, oh, I'm like one of the oldest people here. And I'd be like, oh, shit. How is the brain? How is the brain holding up? Is it, I would think just not that I really good question. I would never go to law. I wouldn't go to law school. I would practice law until I got caught without a license. Right. But I'm not, I'm not going to spend the money to go to law school, but I will give legal advice. However, I think at my age, I would have an advantage over a 28 year old in that I could be more focused. I could put in the extra hours because I got nothing better. I got nothing better to do. And it's not like I've got hot and cold running women coming into my room. So it just mainly cold women. They start off hot. They're hot when we start. Do you have fewer, would you say you have fewer distractions than somebody who is 15 years younger than you are? Yeah, I think that that's been the advantage. I don't know if like, right, if I had thought about doing this in college, it wasn't like complete. I mean, it is a midlife crisis, but it wasn't like a thing where I was like, well, I guess I'm going to do that. I had always thought of it. My dad was a lawyer. I have a lot of lawyers, my family, my mom had always wanted me to be a lawyer. And you know, when I was young, I was like, whatever, like, I'm not going to do that. And then I like, if I had done it out of college, I do not think I would have had the focus or I mean, you know, a lot of these people who are in my class who are probably like 24 now, because I'm about to go into my third year, you know, they're at that age where you want to party like you you're you're going out. This is when you're like, you know, you just you're just legal enough to drink your out of college. These are like your party years. Do you party? I remember you party. No, I've been to a Christmas party with you. You really? When you say you party, do you mean like, like you do blow? Is that what you mean? No, I'm just kidding. That's that's like, that's like code for that. Whenever someone's like you party, that means they won't they want you to do cocaine. Oh, hang on. Hang on. Hang on for one second. I'm so sheltered. Is that an actual thing? I know this sounds naive. But in your world, do people actually you're breathing into the phone, by the way? I am. Yeah. Can you stop breathing? Sure. Yeah. Thank you. Much something I've been working on. Do people still do blow? I mean, is that an actual thing where they said, do you want to party? I mean, if you wanted to score some cocaine, you could. I feel like blow is is so ubiquitous now. It's like back. The millennials have embraced blow like this is 1984 again, because I have been I'm offered cocaine all the time. I see it all the time. And I when I was in my 20s, I never was offered cocaine. I never was around cocaine. I feel like we didn't when I was in my 20s, we didn't really do it. It wasn't like our it wasn't cool to us or something. But now it's that's another thing that's weird about law school. Like I I had to get back into school to see to be surrounded by drugs again. Like I see drugs everywhere now. Well, we should mention that you're going to law school in Medellin, Colombia. So it's yeah, yeah, exactly. Where are you going to law school? I go to New York Law School. Okay, you're at New York Law School. I don't want to get back. Yeah, I don't want to get into any trouble with the students. I don't do right. I don't do drugs. I'm just saying like, I've seen it more being back at school. But I think it's because I'm around people that age who would do it, you know what I mean? Like I and it's kind of like, I just think it's ironic that you know, you always I would always see these PSAs about like, oh, you can't do drugs and be in school, you know, and it's like, I really like now that I'm back in school, I feel like I see that's where the I'm seeing drugs again. Where do you see them? Where do you see them? You're not in a dorm. I would assume you're in an apartment. Yeah, I just, you know, you know, like people will talk about it and, you know, we'll talk about doing them and kind of because they're stressed out. I mean, I would say the main one is like weed is like and drinking a lot too. You know, it's very stressful. So I think to release, you know, it does get the main thing about law school that I will say is like what you would ask before, which I didn't really answer, but I would like I feel like I'm I'm much more prepared for it now because I I take it more seriously now because I'm like closer to dying, you know, I like when you're in your 20s, you don't think you're gonna die for some reason. But now I'm like, when you're in your 40s, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna die, like I'm definitely gonna die, like not that far from now. And so you're like, oh, yeah, I got to I have to do well here. I have to do this. And also, I'm, you know, gonna have to pay the loans back. So I and I had a, you know, I have a scholarship. So I can't really lose my scholarship because you have to keep a certain GPA. So when I was in college, I wasn't paying for it. So I didn't it didn't seem like a real thing. Like, you know, it was like a thing, almost my parents are forcing me to do and they were paying. So you know, it makes you a better student though. So if you're working off a scholarship and you have to hit a certain certain threshold, that does make you a better student, right? It does. And I do have less distractions, like I'm not as I am distracted, but not like I think when I would have been when I was younger, I I'm not, I can focus better now. And it still is really hard because, you know, I think it's because I hadn't, I hadn't been at school for a while. And it's a lot of reading. And I, I don't know that I was really are you reading, are you reading books or are you reading on a tablet? I'm reading books and it's like hard reading. It's it's kind of like learning a language, you know, like when you look at a legal contract, you're like, I don't, because that's the whole thing with like why you need lawyers, because you're like, I don't understand this. Someone else, you read it. So you're reading that shit all the time. And but you have to start understanding it. That's what gets hard about it. Like you'll read something and you're like, I don't know what that means. And you have to read it three more times. And because I was taking it so seriously, because I was older and I had a lot more invested in it. I would, if I didn't understand something, I really would put in the work to get it. You know what I mean? I wouldn't just kind of blow it off. Now, are you looking words up? I would assume with a Kindle or a tablet, you can just touch these Latin words and they pop up. That would make going to law school so much easier. You're not reading electronically. Now, I, I, there was one class where I had books on Kindle and I didn't like it. I don't know why just reading on a Kindle. I don't like, I feel like it's so easy to get distracted because you're on a device that you could just start looking up like corn on. So, you know, I just, I'd rather have the actual book in front of me. So, but I, yeah, I would have my iPhone and I would have to look up legal terms all the time. I mean, I still do to this, even now. So it's like, how's your, and your memory is still good? Yeah, yeah, it's good. It's pretty good. Is it getting better because you're going to law school? I don't know. I mean, maybe because I, it's, I'm utilizing it more than I ever have because even in comedy, I, I would be lazy about memorizing like, it's not my jokes, but I would have like a set list a lot. You know, so like, I don't know. I feel like, you know, comedy, I've worked hard at it, but it can kind of breed laziness a little bit. I don't know. But I was always kind of inherently, yeah, you agree with that? Oh yeah. I found it was a lot like if, you know, just being a comedian and not doing anything else was like being a boxer and eventually get a little punch drunk because of the repetition. And I think for me, it was brain damaging. I found, I found it was a little numbing to the brain because of the repetition. But do you find yourself in conversations with people and suddenly you're more logical, you're more persuasive, or you're just a bigger a-hole because that's what lawyers Well, that's a really interesting thing because it's something I've been discovered because, you know, that was always the thing. The, the, I appreciate with lawyers is that they're assholes and a lot of people hate them, you know, because the old jokes where they're like, what do you call like a million lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? Like a good start, you know, I just knew those jokes. And then when I got into law school, I started realizing I was like, oh yeah, like there's a personality type that is kind of hard to get along with. So there were a lot of people and I mean, I think part of it was too was that I was older. So there was that gap, but like a lot of people weren't very like friendly or nice. And I've grappled with that a little bit because I don't really like being an asshole. I can be, but sometimes I'm like, I don't, I feel like I might have to be like kind of an asshole a little bit when I'm a lawyer. I think there's like a line you can like, you know, kind of walk a fine line where you don't have to be an out and out asshole, but you know, you just have to like assert yourself in certain situations that I do find that I had problems somewhat with that like setting boundaries in certain situations. And now I think I'm better at it. Like, all right, there's no, there's, there's nothing more like defending yourself in a situation, but there's a, you can go, you can go too far sometimes. And that's kind of where you can go into the level of being an asshole. Okay. I want to ask you about the personality type, because I may or may not know somebody who may or may not be me, who is going through lawyers because he may or may not be getting a divorce. And okay, so let me ask you. Yeah, we don't know. We won't say who we're talking about. Would you say out of a hundred law students, how many of them are capable of admitting they're wrong? Oh, wow. How many of them are capable of saying I made a mistake? Well, law students might be a little different because they might be a little more open to admitting they're wrong because maybe they're still at a point of like, Oh, I kind of don't know what I'm doing yet. But I mean, you know, maybe like, maybe like 30, which isn't bad, but I think that 30 out of a hundred, what 30 will admit they made a mistake or 30 can't admit they made. Yeah, definitely. I think law students definitely because I think law students are a little more open to you. They're not as stubborn and they're they're a lot of them are younger. So they might be a little more like, Oh yeah, I can admit that I was wrong about that. But that doesn't mean that they still don't have like a certain personality type that's kind of off-putting. You know what I mean? Like, I think what is just there's like a there's a competitive like when you when I walk in the building at times, you can just kind of like feel something in the air that is like training a little like just like competition and people aren't there to like be your friend. Some people are very I've made friends there. Some people are very nice. But you know, I have a lot of interactions where I will know people and I talk to them and then I'll see them and they never acknowledge me again, which is kind of my biggest pet peeve in the world. Like when I know someone and then they just ignore me, like after that, I I really don't like and that happens to me all the time there. Like it's like your friendship expired or something. You know what I mean? My dealings with lawyers is they're not concerned about the truth. They're not even concerned about winning. They're not concerned about the client. They're concerned about billable hours and they will fight just as hard for their right to bill you as they will the opposing council that there's no that's the other excuse me for that. Go ahead. There's no score. There's no scorecard because most lawsuits are settled. So there's no one lost column. You can't call a lawyer and say, you know, how many of you won? How many of you lost? Because we've lost our right to sue in America. So you really don't know how good a lawyer you're hiring because none of them really go to court. They all go into some kind of mediation arbitration because they've taken away our constitutional right to a trial. They've just made it so expensive. Is that is that fair to say that? But what that last part that no one goes to court? Yeah. I mean, I haven't had much experience in that realm, but I would assume, yeah, like it's a lot easier to settle than to go through an entire trial, which is that, you know, I feel like I've learned a lot. They say a lot. You want to avoid going to trial as much as you can because it's just so much easier to settle. And I don't know if that's like even a money thing. I think it's just kind of like it'll be more of a pain in the ass in your client. It depends on and I was going to say with the lawyers you're talking about, it depends on the type of law area because in certain areas, I think there are going to be lawyers like that. But I've come across a lot who at least at this point are not like are not focused on just making money and, you know, they don't care about winning or they just kind of about billing people and getting their money, but are more kind of like did get into law to like help people and seek justice. But, you know, I don't know. I think that's the nature of that business. It's very competitive and a lot of people go into it specifically just to make money. So. Well, I don't mind. I don't mind. But here's the thing. I don't mind the competition. I want it to be competitive. The problem is it's not the lawyers compete with their own clients to prove that they're smarter than their clients and they can outwit their clients and charge them for things that they never did because they've privatized. Certainly in civil procedure, they've privatized procedure in this country so that it's just prohibitive to sue or when you're sued, you you settle because you just do not want to go through it even. So somebody can drag your name through the mud, say whatever they want. And because it's because they've privatized civil, the civil lawsuits, you have retired judges settling things. So you never know how good a lawyer you have because he's not or she is not competing with opposed. You mean that you don't know because they never actually have to go into court and yeah. Yeah. And they don't. I do think settling is even like an art in itself, you know, like the negotiating of how they handle that. And I think that that's where I think that the being like assertive and having to be an asshole sometimes comes in. But do they teach you how to settle? On my first year, we had some like negotiating clinics where we would have to go in and do like we'd be going up against another set of attorneys for our client trying to get a deal. So yeah, we kind of went through that. But I have heard a lot. They'll be like, you want to settle. I mean, they don't like it, but they're just like it's sometimes it's an easier situation or scenario to just not to drag it out in court. Not to drag it out. I know it's not you that you're talking about. No, no, no, no, I've never met a lawyer. Would they like the ones, what if it is you? Would they like the ones you experienced really shitty or something or really lie? They were like adversarial to you. I'm saying my friend, his experience with all lawyers when it comes to civil litigation is they spend more time negotiating with their clients than they do opposing counsel. They have, they want to make a deal, even if the deal is no good. They want to make the deal so they can move on. They do a cost benefit analysis of their time, their money, and they don't do their homework. They don't review the documents. They say, these are rounding errors. Let's just settle. And my friend says, these are rounding errors to you because you want to move on. But my friend says, I have to live with these rounding errors. And then it becomes a back and forth. And you say, he says, well, why don't you go speak to opposing counsel and they'll go, well, that's going to cost you. You don't want to spend that money. And then he says, well, why don't you do your job? I mean, how do you sleep at night? What do you take pride in? And then they say, well, you're being very difficult to work with. And since your retainer has almost been run down to zero, we no longer want to work with you. Go find another lawyer. And my friend then it's just a never ending cycle of hell. Well, I would say, well, I would say that what what what must happen. And this is just from like experiencing it is like, it's learning all this stuff is really difficult. And it takes a lot of work. And then when you are a lawyer, that's kind of your leverage, because your whole thing is your banking on people who don't who get in situations where they need help and they don't understand anything. So I think a lot of lawyers will take it, obviously will take advantage of that. And what you're talking about with your friend is like, they're kind of they're kind of relying on the fact that, oh, well, they're never going to be able to understand what I'm telling them, you know what I mean? Because I don't know anything. And then no one understands this language. So when my friend asks a question and says, what does this mean? And why didn't you do such and such? And he says it in this tone of voice. I thought you were going to do such and such. You said you would. They immediately say, I don't like your tone of voice. You're being difficult. Huh? How am I? Yeah, that kind of stuff. That old game sounds like your friend sounds like he's being difficult there. Really? Maybe it's that maybe it's that maybe it's the timber of his voice. Because sometimes when he says, I don't understand this, maybe it's menacing. But my friend is a really decent person. Well, I, you know, when I dealt with lawyer, I know your friend, he's a fucking, he's an asshole. Problem is, my friend would agree with you that he's an asshole, which is, but he's still entitled to his day in court. He's still entitled to getting an officer of the court who's going to look out for him. And they don't seem to care. They only care about their trips. Well, they shouldn't, the lawyer shouldn't be that way with the client. They shouldn't be adversarial. That's the whole thing is you're hiring them to, it's like hiring someone to be an asshole for you so you don't have to be the asshole. So, but they shouldn't do that to you. But in my experience with lawyers, this is like one of my last things that like finally pushed me over to wanting to be a lawyer was when I made my movie, I did this, I did this distribution deal with this company. And they just kind of ripped me off, which I kind of was like anticipating because I just wanted to get it out there. I didn't want to sit on it. And I just remember their lawyer called me and was like, you know, this is supposed to be a lawyer that's like representing the company that is like interested in my movie. And they're, you know, so I have a product they want. He was like, strong arming me into taking the deal and like signing it. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. Like this guy, he's just, because he was doing that, he was using tactics, like he was like, well, you know what, if you don't do this, like, we're gonna, we're gonna take it away. And then like, you can do whatever you want with your movie and like, we'll find something else. And, and again, like, I didn't know anything. I didn't understand contracts. And I'd had a lawyer look at it. But I mean, I feel that happens a lot, like lawyers, they know that what they, what they're holding over your head, so they can straw it, they can scare you into, into doing things. Or if you don't like some of you don't understand it, like, they can kind of scare you into like backing off. But they shouldn't be doing that. If you're the, if you're the client, I mean, it sounds like you ran into some shitty lawyers. And unfortunately, in my experience in law school, I've met a lot of people who don't have respect for skills. But I think what it is is like, it's a lot, it attracts a personality. It's kind of similar to comedy. Like it attracts a personality type that is like narcissistic and has a big ego and doesn't know how to interact with people well. And I think that that's part of the profession. A lot of people don't kind of take for granted, you know, I mean, where they're like, well, I don't need to like deal with people. I mean, but it's kind of like, if you're going to deal with clients, you know, you have to be able to deal with people. Yeah, how do you? Yeah, it goes back to how do you quantify the quality of a lawyer? There's no way to tell. There's like a reputation. You know, a comic you can, you can see he's either bombing or killing. And with a lawyer, because they never go to trial, you have no, you don't know if they're winners or losers. Let me ask you this. Some of them do. Yeah, go ahead. You know, go ahead. I mean, some I was just working for a firm as like a personal injury firm. And I think that they had, they had a good success rate. They weren't like going to court a lot. But I remember when I when I interviewed, there was a client there. And he was like, Oh, this, he thought I was waiting to be like that I was going to interview, but he thought I was like going to maybe be a client. He was like, Oh, you should these guys are great. Like they've gotten me so much money. Yeah, you look like you've been a victim of a slip and fall. Yeah, I hear that a lot. I don't know. What does that look like? Is that like your face? Is that like a I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Can you just, is it safe to say that if I wanted to, I could sue every day, I could bring a lawsuit to a corporation and they'll just throw me money to settle to a corporation. Yeah, you just sue them and they're just going to say, it's not worth it. I'm going to settle. Here's some money. Go away. No, because a lot of those corporations, they, they will, um, they've had that happen. And so they know that if they start settling for things that people will take advantage of it. So they won't, in fact, I've seen cases where they will like fight someone all the way because they don't want other people to know that they can, that they can do the same thing. I mean, it depends on what it is. If it's like a totally like unwinnable small thing that might first a rep and they just want to go away. But if it's like the privilege, I think that they would be like, we're not going to, I mean, their lawyers are probably just destroy whoever the other lawyer was. Going back to the, going back to the character of your peers, I think it's safe to say that most Americans who vote Republican have this epiphany where they say, Hey, I'm not a racist. I'm not an ignoramus. I'm a Republican. And I think a lot of people say, Hey, I'm not an a-hole. I'm a lawyer. And I think a lot of parents look at their, their kid who doesn't take no for an answer, who doesn't play well with others. And they go, haha, he's a lawyer. That's, you're going to be a lawyer as though that's a good thing. Right. Well, I mean, so that's what I was saying before. It is the thing I've thought about more than I've been in it, because even before law school, I was always like, and this is like a comedian trait too, where, uh, you know, part of my, what drew me to comedy was just kind of, I'm probably a lot of comedians. Like the world is very unfair. And I feel like I wasn't heard in a certain way. And I would see how people acted or looked at the world. I didn't agree. It felt very unfair to me. There was a lot of unfairness that kind of drew me to, to finally do comedy. Because there's justice in comedy. That's what Jerry Seinfeld talks about. There is justice in comedy, if you would. Is that what he says? Yep. If you work really hard and, and write the jokes properly and tell the jokes properly and perform them properly, there will be justice. There may not be success in money, but there definitely will be justice. So there was always an underlying thing about it's like justice. I was doing comedy to get just to get my point of view that I, I felt like a lot of people were wrong about something. And my point of view was right. So I was, and I, I'm very into when I would get into arguments like with people and, and they had like really stupid point, you know, their point of view was wrong. And I would get very into like proving that they were wrong with logic. And so there, I'm actually, I did a show with you once. I think it was like a year ago that, um, Eastville and like, I did a joke about Caitlyn Jenner and I wasn't even making fun of Caitlyn Jenner. I was just like commenting on it. And then some other comedian there, this girl was like 23 was came out, just kind of started yelling at me about doing that joke. And I kind of just started fighting back with her because she was so wrong. And I was just like angry that she didn't understand how wrong she was. And then I realized I was like, she's like a 23 year old girl. Like nothing I say is going to like convince her of anything. So, well, I guess the point of that was just, I always had that mentality of like, I was, I always needed to prove I was right, which I don't know that that's even a good mentality. Well, I remember that incident. I remember, I remember that incident. Oh yeah. I remember that, that woman. She is the quintessential millennial. I'm not going to mention her name. She's attractive. She gets up on stage and she is the poster child for millennial psychosis and millennial psychosis is my shit don't stink. There's a breed of comics who actually believe they're killing and they tend to be millennials and they just keep going and going and going and telling telling these stories in comedy clubs, not alt rooms, but in comedy clubs. And you want to stand up and say, hey, I get it. I know I'm old. I'm a dinosaur. I don't belong in show business anymore because I'm painful on the eyes and you're not. But these people who you're performing for, you are boring them. You are not entertaining. You are a dollar. You don't get a trophy for this. I don't know what kind of millennial psychosis is feeding your brain the notion that you're in show business. This is not show business. This is just self indulgence. This is just everybody gets a trophy. That's who she is. And I remember she opened for me right after Trump won and nobody hates Trump more than I. But when I watch her perform, I'm glad Trump is president because she has this entitlement. She knows what's best. And I remember she walked up to you and lectured you about comedy. She started lecturing me about and I was at first I was trying to be chill. I was like, hey, look, it's just a joke. I'm not saying anything. I'm not insulting. What annoyed me about what happened with that joke is that it is people would get really mad and awkward and they weren't like it was nothing to do with the joke. It was mentioning Caitlyn Jenner. People got mad immediately. Like I had the audacity to like even mention that like that was this horrible. And I remember what started happening is I would do that joke and it would do badly because I could feel the touch. And then I'd get mad at the credit. And I would just say to them, I'd be like, well, why are you mad? Like, what is the problem with that joke? Like, I would kind of try to engage what, and then I think I did that that night. And then she, yeah, she came up to me totally. I didn't, she just unprovoked. She just walked up to me and started engaging, you know, with it. And I don't know, the thing is like, I'm a comedian. I'm doing comedy. Like, we're supposed to talk about things, you know what I mean? Like, this is the place where you're gonna, you're going to attack someone for expressing something. Somebody who's in a comedy club. It's just kind of like, it's like those, those comedians when they attack them for telling jokes about like rape or something. It's just kind of like, we're comedians and we're supposed to talk about things that maybe make people uncomfortable. And I think what's important is you can tackle any subject as long as you're clever about it or have like a point of view on it. So I don't like that. Like, I can't mention Caitlyn Jenner and like, not be looked at as some complete asshole. Like, I don't, I don't know how that. Something happened there. Something, something happens in the zeitgeist when Chris Brown punched Rihanna. It was verb, remember that it was verboten to make fun of Chris Brown. It's everyone decided. To make fun of Chris Brown? Yeah. Yes. At the time, it was considered sad. I knew feminists and they said, oh, it's sad. It's just sad. Don't, don't, don't talk about it. I go, well, he, he pushed her head against the steering wheel and she was, yeah, but it's sad and it's private. They made up their mind that there's, they had a meeting and decided Chris Brown jokes were verboten. And it turns out he's a supreme a-hole. The edict came down from the trilateral commission and the Illuminati that run the, the, the Jewish banks, which dictate the comedy writing rooms. There was an edict that just came down. You were not allowed to make jokes about Caitlyn Jenner. Off limits. And it, it, it happened like literally felt like in like a matter of like a month. And she, and Caitlyn Jenner, she's a piece of shit. She's a Trump supporter. She's a Trump supporter. She's a Republican. She's a piece of shit. I mean, I don't like, and the thing is, my joke wasn't saying, it was just supposed to be a stupid joke. I wasn't judging. And I would say that the beginning, I was like, I'm not, I think it's fine. I just, the joke was basically, I'll try and do it as fast as that. It was, it was commenting on his reason for doing it was like kind of annoyed me. Like he was like, I just feel like God got it wrong, making, making me a man, not making me a woman. I feel like on the inside I was supposed to be a woman. And I was like, you know, no one's completely happy with who they are. Sometimes I feel like, like I'm not happy with who I am completely, but sometimes I feel like you just have to accept the hand or go like, you know, like, I'm not going to be like, I feel like God got it wrong, not making me Brad Pitt, you know, like, I just feel like I should be Brad Pitt. And, but if I got plastic surgery, look like Brad Pitt, people would think I was an idiot. But if I get plastic surgery to look like Angelina Tilly, I'm a hero. Is that what she said? Is that what she said? Yeah, that's the joke. Like I'm like, I wish, yeah, I wish I was different too, but I just kind of have to like, you know, it's like, if I was like, I just feel like on the inside I'm supposed to be a professional basketball player, but like I'm not good. People would be like, you're not good at basketball. I'll be like, I know, but I feel like I should be. And the thing is, like, is this a stupid joke? And no, it's actually a funny joke. No, it's fine. But it's not like, it's not politically correct. It's not politically correct, but it's funny. And it's not, but it's not like super mean. It's just kind of saying how like, you know, I don't, it was more than, it wasn't making fun of him doing it. It was, I was like, do it, but don't like give these reasons that I think are kind of ridiculous. Like just say I wanted to do that. Like don't put it on God. Like, oh yeah, God blew it. You know, like, you know, God's like, yeah, no, I don't, don't bring me into this. Like I made you this. Like, don't you want to do it? Just do it. I think what just, it annoyed me that people like got so mad about it, you know, like, and I would find myself in, I stopped doing the joke. I would get in like arguments after a show. So I was like, dude, I'm just like doing, these are just jokes. I don't know what, who's even, there's like 30 people here. So she wasn't the first one to complain to you about that joke. She was like, I think she was like maybe the third or four. And I started, it was with her. I felt like it culminated. I was like, but there's something weird here. I can't do this joke anymore. It's kind of like, you're right. Like something changed in like, because I was doing it for like months and people, it was doing fine. And then like something happened where it became like, you know, almost like the equivalent of like races, like that's how people were looking at it. Like, I think I told you, I think I told you that night, she's a jerk, but you probably shouldn't do the joke. It's not worth fighting that battle. I think I said that to you. I do remember you said something like, don't even like fight her. And I was like, yeah, you're right. I'm not going to get in a fight with her. I'm like 20 years older than her. What a like, what a white. And that's another thing is I've gotten older. I've, especially in comedy, I kind of turned a corner where I used to get so mad about doing badly or like, if an audience didn't like me, and then I kind of finally like was like, you know, like, if you don't like it, I don't really know what to tell you. Like, you know, sorry, like, this isn't for everybody. Interesting. So hang on for one second. Because I asked you about the personality of your peers at law school. You went toe to toe with that millennial criticizing your joke. I want to dial in on the personality type. You're going to bang. Good. So, uh, well, she is attractive. She is hot. Yeah. Yeah. Did you enjoy arguing with her? Did you get off on challenging her, debating her, and trying to make her feel less than? Be honest. I really did it. I really did it because, um, be honest. I am. I didn't like it because, um, it felt like kind of it felt like a personal attack. Like I said, it felt like I was being accused of racism or something. And I think that's why I was trying to defend my position. But then I was, How long did you defend her? I kind of just gave her. How long did you defend her? I don't know. Maybe like five minutes. I kind of, what happened was one of those things where I had met her and she was nice to me. And then all of a sudden she was like lecturing me. And I kind of was like in a fight. I was kind of in a conversation. Then I kind of was realizing that I was being insulted and kind of like challenged. And when, you know, there's so many if I get challenged, especially someone who I feel like isn't, doesn't really know what they're talking about, then I get very like defensive and but no, I defensive because this is the hang on for one second because I'm trying to zero in on the personality type that goes to law school in their forties. Somebody who doesn't know what they're somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about. So says you, you get defensive so you lash out, not lash out, but you fight back, you defend yourself, right? I defend my position. Yeah. And I think comedy trains you to do that. Comedy trains you to do that. But before you said you went into comedy because you were seeking justice. So you were was and I think, and I think comedy makes you it sharpens that skill like you become good at defending yourself because you immediately are you can you have like the tools to come back at people and win a situation. So you're going to be right. So you're going to be a lawyer. You got into this argument with this millennial. It ended how I think I just kind of was like, I just kind of gave up. I was like, yeah, all right. So you're willing to say you're you're willing to say you're not worth getting upset about? Yeah. And I didn't say I just kind of was like, look, I don't I think I even said like, look, I'm not I don't know. I wasn't trying to be offensive. I just I thought it was a funny joke. Like I and then it just kind of diffused from it. Like I wasn't defending my position anymore. So when you do that, it's kind of like, there's not much for them to go up against anymore. Once they can kind of feel you're not resisting anymore, like very then once there's a resistance, the person kind of gets off. They're like, oh, I think she just kind of walked. I think she was hosting. So she had to go back and all right. Can I ask you a personal question? And you don't have to answer it. Okay, okay. Your father is a lawyer, correct? He was. Yeah. Is he still alive? He's still alive. He's a lawyer. Growing up, did he win all the arguments? No, he didn't really are he didn't really get an argument a lot. Was he willing to admit he was wrong? You don't have you don't have to answer that question. No, he was okay. I remember specific times you like apologize for being wrong. Okay. And did he sometimes grill you? Like there'd be a dent in the living room, the plaster broke? Would he get to now? No, he was not like that at all. My mom was more like that. So I think when he got home, he was just tired. And he didn't want to do that anymore. You know, like if you're arguing all day or that's your I don't even know. Like I don't think you know, I just worked at a firm. I don't think that a lot of the people the lawyers at the firm I worked at were like my boss was like totally chill and like, you know, never I never see he never had. I never saw him get a fight with anyone. And he was like maybe the most chill boss I've ever had. I don't think they're all I mean, some of them can be like that. And I'm not even saying like I'm not shitting on the people I go to school with. I'm just I think it's a it's like comedy. And it's not the same personality, but there's a personality type that is attracted to it. Like, it's usually people who, you know, want to be right and think that they're kind of smarter than people and and are they competitive? Yeah, are they smarter? Or I think some of them I'm making a sweeping generalization about lawyers. I think most of them are intellectually lazy and go to law school. So they'll never have to pick up a book again. That they go, this is the last time I'm going to crack a book. And no matter what happens in the future, I'll be able to talk my way in or out of something no matter what the subject is art or jaywalking. Yeah, and I would say like I went I went out with like a couple of women from law school and they were not easy. You know, it's a you know, certain it was one of the hardest personality. It's a lot of just type a personality type women who are very like I went out on a date with a girl from law school and she was totally wrong in the situation and would not admit like literally it was literally like the inauguration thing of like we had bigger crowds, you know, you can see the picture of not bigger crowds. And I was just and I finally like said to her and this is funny. This is finally like set her off like I go, she wouldn't stop arguing and I go and I was trying not to argue because I was like, look, I don't want to. And I was like, you're going to be a really good lawyer someday. And she got so mad at that, which I thought was kind of a compliment. But I mean, it was me saying like, you just want to argue about everything. So I think that's what I mean. Like there's like when I've dealt with with women, not all the women, but like certain when that the interactions I've had with women who are lost to it, it's it's very type a women who they women, you know, kind of want to be right already. So add that on top of it. It's just like someone who now has the tools to be right. Like now they can make good argument. Well, my friend and I'm kind of the worst for that, because that's why I've had problems in relationships because I'm good at making arguments before law school. And when I was going to fight with a woman, I would like make the point that they were wrong and they didn't like that. You know what I mean? Because I didn't realize with women, it doesn't matter that they're wrong. You have to just be like, oh, you're right. I have that conversation with someone recently. I was like, you know, she did this and she was wrong. And they're like, yeah, but she's a woman. You can't just have to. That's the whole thing. Okay, so let I have a lot of female listeners and I have a lot of male listeners and the cliche the stereotype is that women refuse to admit they're wrong. Now that is right guys to do that guys do guys also refuse to admit they're wrong. Right. But it seems to be the thing guys complain about the most in private. They will say that women are constitutionally unable to admit they're wrong. I have a theory about that. What's your theory? I think women do admit they're wrong. They just don't admit they're wrong to guys who think women can't admit they're wrong because they don't want to make you feel good. In other words, there's a certain type of man who thinks women won't admit they're wrong. And if you're in a relationship with them, they're not and it's falling apart. They don't want to give anything up. And they know that more than anything else in the world, I mean, I would hire a prostitute to come to my house. She could keep her clothes on and spend an hour admitting she's wrong. Right. Wow, that sounds like a good service for married guys. Yeah, but I think that I think the women know. There was a joke. No, I just said this to you. Oh, you should do that as a joke. I don't know. I don't want to piss off the women. I have a lot of women listeners and I don't want to piss them off. And I do think the same way a guy who gets caught cheating on his wife will lie and say, no, I'm not cheating and look her straight in the eye and say, honey, this is I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know who this woman with her lips around my penis is. This is right. I have no and they will with a straight face and a clear conscience, they will lie right into a woman's eyes. And I think when a woman refuses to admit she's wrong to a certain type of guy, it's kind of the same thing. They know they're wrong, but they want to lie to you because you're the type of guy who would get off on a woman admitting she's wrong. I think that's true. And I think I have come across as that guy a lot. And especially in that situation, the woman was completely right. And it wasn't like a woman I was like in a relationship with. I was like, I had just met her. I mean, we had just kind of started hanging out and I was just kind of like, can't you just admit that this was what you did was wrong? And she wouldn't, I don't know. I mean, and I've had that a relationship. I think also the other thing is like a lot of women are, you know, they're different. There's degrees. Like some are more stubborn than others. Some will that they're wrong. Those are the ones that are more, you know, better communicating. And those are the ones you're going to have a better relationship with the ones who if they are wrong and they know it, they and their remorseless, they will. One of the things I think one of the things I've noticed, one of the things I've noticed in relationships, new relationships. And I guess it would be a problem being a lawyer dating another lawyer. But I have noticed that part of the mating ritual, I believe, is a witty back and forth between the man and the woman. And it mirrors bad movies, bad cinema, bad screenwriting, where there's like this witty by play. And I have found myself saying, you know, this is like a Nancy Meyers movie. In about 20 minutes, it's going to get really boring. I don't get off. Which what's a Nancy Meyers movie? You know, I don't want, you know, but the point is, is like everybody's got a witty line and it's there's nice back and forth. And after 20 minutes, it's like, okay, you know, what is this about? And that's the point I'm making is that I don't kind of a relationship gets boring past, I think topping one another and trying to prove the other person wrong. There's that there's a playful teasing that is fun for a while. But eventually, you know, No, it builds that can only go so far. I was, I dated a woman once and we had that it was kind of like, we would kind of like fight all the time, but about like not like little things. And it was kind of funny. But then like, you know, it gets after a while, like the fights come, they become real because someone gets really mad. So before you go, this has been really interesting. This has been really interesting. Before you go. Do you like making people feel stupid? I'm just curious. Honestly, no, but I have taken pleasure in it when it's someone who's like challenging me. I think it's like, like human nature, like if someone's coming at you, I'm not confrontational, but if someone confronts me, I like to be able to beat that person and make them feel stupid. It's like if you're doing a show and someone's heckling you, you want to shut them down and make them feel stupid. So in those situations, yes. And that's what I meant that, you know, before I always would be in situations where maybe, you know, people would try and make me embarrass me or make me feel stupid. And then like comedy was like empowering myself. And it trained me and gave me the tools when I was in those situations to not be afraid and to win. And I remember specifically the first time I was, you know, like the whole thing you get in situations where someone says something like, you and it's embarrassing and people are there and you don't know what to say because you're scared. And then like three days later, you think of something to say and you're like, oh, I should have said that. I remember I'd been doing comedy like two years. And I had a situation like that where girl, I did a show and they didn't like, it was like an open mic. It's always a girl. It's always a girl. Yeah. Well, I was doing an open, an open mic. And I did it. I think I was making fun of someone who would gone on earlier who was like horrible. Like I was just making joke. And the woman who it was like these hippie-ish women running the open mic and they grabbed the mic from me. They were like, we don't like that. And I was like, what? Like, you can't like not like, you can't like tell me not to take, make jokes about something. And then people were mad at me like in the audience and I sat down and this girl was like yelling, clapping and she was like, whatever. And I was right next to her and she was like, whatever. He's not funny anyway. And all my friends were there because they were at the show. And I go, what did you say? And she goes, you're not funny. And so now everyone in the room is staring at me. And I turned and I, you know, I'm having that moment and I go, well, you're not attracted. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And I'm not trying to be sure, but I mean, and everyone in the room died laughing when I said that. And I go, I go, you know, but I'm not just going to say that to you on provoked. Like that's really rude. And again, like she, and she wasn't even that unattractive, but that wasn't the point. It was like, I was in a situation that if I had not done stand up and been in those like trenches, I never would have been able to handle. And so I've been in situations. I mean, you've probably had it too. You get in situations of people like just in the everyday world and they don't know that you're a comedian and they try and like challenge you. And then you kind of like come back and they're like, whoa. Well, what you did is what you did is I have to say to you this, I don't agree with you. First, I have three quick questions I want to ask you. I don't agree with you, by the way, on some things. However, about that, well, yeah, in a way, because here's what I thought when you said that if a woman humiliated me in public and said, you're not funny. In the back of my mind, my primal instinct is you telling me I'm not funny is as hurtful as me calling you ugly or fat. That's that. So when you said that, I started laughing because that's where, you know, my evil head went, well, if I want to get even with her, I'll call her ugly because that's that's just as bad as saying I'm not funny. I mean, because they do, you know, people people know, I was yeah, yeah, go ahead. And I'm not different. That's not like a really clever. I'm not saying like I was I'm not defending it really. But I will say like, even because I've been doing comedy for a little while, then it wasn't like I just was like, well, you're ugly. I turned it into like phrasing that she had used against me. But in a, you know, a way to be mean to her, you know, you're not funny. And I was like, well, you're not this, you're not blank. And I'm not saying again, like, I'm just saying like something had happened where I wasn't afraid to defend myself. And I, you know, I know I told the story of him that you really mean, and I'm like, look, dude, I didn't provoke this. Someone said something really insulting to me that if they could have just not been rude and yelled at a stranger, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like if you start yelling at strangers insults, you're kind of opening yourself up to things. I'm playing with an idea here. Let me ask you a question. If you say to a woman, I may be getting myself into trouble here. I'm just thinking out loud. Okay. It always sounds like trouble. If you say to a woman, I think you're hideous. I think you're the ugliest person I've ever seen in my life. That is one of the worst things, especially now that a man could say to a woman, right? Yeah. I mean, it's pretty, it's horrible. Yeah. And I think in this day and age, it's even worse. But if you said to the woman, let me explain to you what I meant by your being hideous, a humunculus, somebody who I can't even look at because you're so grotesque. Your ugliness comes from within. You are a seething cauldron of neuroses and bitterness, and it just flows from your insides to your epidermis, to your skin, to your outer layers. Your ugliness is so dense and thick inside of you can't help but show itself through your personality. It's just like on a first Tinder date or something. If you said, you know, if somebody saw a picture of you, they wouldn't know how ugly you are because they didn't hear you talk. She'd go, oh. Right. Is there ugly on the inside? And I have a feeling she'd go, oh, in that case, then it's not an insult. Right. It wouldn't be an insult. Who cares what you're like on the inside? That's not what I think. Right? Now, again, I'm probably going to get a lot of pushback. But if you told somebody they're ugly on the inside, they'd be okay with it. But if you say they're ugly on the outside, you might as well be Robert Blake, Phil Speck, you're an OJ Simpson combined. Well, it's kind of like that Seinfeld where I think George finds out that his girlfriend thinks he's ugly or something. She's like, oh, I like George, but looks aren't that important to me. They're like, what does it matter? She doesn't think you're attractive. She likes you. He's like, I'd rather she hated me. I thought I was attractive. And I mean, that's a really good like, because it's very true. That is how people think. It's kind of like they'd rather have people think they're attractive but like hated them. You know what I mean? Because it doesn't really matter. Like when someone's like, oh, well, they're, you know, it's like, oh, well, they're really beautiful on the inside. It's kind of like, yeah, big deal. Yeah. But with that story, with, I guess the point of the story when I said to that, that girl is like, I was saying that like I had stand up and I had gotten better at like defending myself in situations where I had been in the situations a lot where people said insulting things that I didn't, you know, I was too scared to say anything because it's a but All right, so so answer some quick, answer some quick questions here. As a comedian on the road, have you ever had a heckler who was heckling you and you were able to shut that person up and you won and they were embarrassed? Yeah, I have and I and to be honest, it didn't make me feel that good. Like I felt bad. Why? Because I don't like making people feel bad, you know what I mean? But I've done it if I've been in a situation where I'm cornered and someone's like challenging me. But the only problem with that is I've done that. But then like when you do that with hecklers and they lose, they don't stop, you know what I mean? Because they don't care that they lose. Now they feel like they have to like ruin the show, you know, even though they're not saying anything clever, you know, it's very rare that someone heckles you and then you just Okay, hang on. Hang on. So you're not answering my question. So answer my questions. Okay. Okay, I'm deposing you now. Okay. Yeah. All right. Have you ever been in a situation on stage where somebody was heckling you and you got the best of that person you won and they were quiet for the rest of the show without management having to throw them out or they're making a scene or demanding their money back? Yeah, yeah. Okay. That's the answer. Were you able to then get back to your act and get laughs? Did you find that shutting up a heckler was more entertaining to the audience? The blood sport of decapitating a heckler was more entertainment than your act. No, I feel like a lot of times the rest of the crowd just wants to hear your act. You know, most of the time the hecklers don't. I mean, the rest of the crowd, they don't like the hecklers. They're just ruining it for everyone. Okay, so you shut the heckler up and it felt good? Yeah, I've had it where I've shut a heckler down, but usually it's like a heckler that isn't like an evil person. They're just maybe saying things and then you'll kind of say something that's funnier than them and it means to build up and then they kind of like accept it, you know. And then... Did it feel like justice? Did it feel like justice? It felt like being chat... I wouldn't say justice, like being challenged and and stepping up to the plate and showing that you could like... That you, that they shouldn't have... It's kind of like showing someone like you should not have messed with me, which I like that feeling of power of like... All right, okay. ...of being like, oh wow, that guy really is not someone to mess with. Yes, okay. Have you ever had a female heckler? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Have you ever... Bad. Have you ever won with a female heckler? And by winning, I mean, you were being heckled by a woman in the audience, you gave a couple of rejoinders, the audience laughed because you were shutting her up, and then she decided to sit quietly for the rest of the evening and not complain. Yeah, I've had, I've had that. But are female hecklers... Are female hecklers different than male? I've had... One of the worst heckling experiences I ever had with a female, and it was... I didn't say anything mean, they just were like... They were talking really loudly, and I kind of asked them not to talk, and then they started getting really mad. And again, this was like two years ago, and I was trying not to get mad on stage, like about things, and the girl kept talking. And I was like, why are you so angry? I was like, look, you're like a good-looking woman. Like, you should be, you know, you should be in a better mood. And then she got really mad at that. Like, that became an insult, like... That she said that... She was like, I can't believe you have... I can't believe you just said I'm good-looking. And I was like, why is that a bad... I don't know why that... Well, that is bad. Taking that... I learned that the hard way, but apparently... But I was doing it only to like appease, like I wanted to stop the situation, but I didn't want to be like, hey, should have you... I was trying to be like, hey, like, come on, like... Yeah. If you're... I was trying to be cool about it. And then they just kept... It was the thing where then they took that and ran with that I was being insulting. Oh, I learned the hard way. I learned the hard way, you know, that I'm a dinosaur and I better change. I, a couple of years ago... I'm ashamed to tell you this, but somebody brought me up on stage. I said, how about a hand for Diane? Isn't she great? And very pretty. And I said, you know, you're very pretty. And she said to me, rather you think I'm funny. And it was as though somebody... It was like a gut punch. And I couldn't recover from it. And I realized, yeah, it's kind of wrong. It made me look old is what it did. Because I'm from a generation where, and I think you are too, where telling a woman she's pretty is a compliment. In many ways, these women perceive it. And rightfully so, as patronizing, as dominating them. They don't care if you think they're pretty or not. That's a form of control. And I, I get that. And if I, but in this situation, it was, it was women who were being insanely overtly rude in a situation where I was trying to like handle the situation in a very polite way. And they were just over and over being rude. It wasn't like I was just like, hey, baby, you're really hot. I was like, hey, you know, you're like an attractive woman. Like you should know, because she was like mad at me and like scowling at me. Yeah. And I'm like, why are you so angry? Like, you know, it's just, I was like, you're young, attractive. Like, you know, just enjoy your life. And it wasn't just, I don't think... I would say as a feminist, I would say you're young and attractive. As a feminist, I would say, oh, you're saying because in a few years, I'll be old and unattractive. I think I did finally get mad and say something like that. I finally go, hey, you know what? Like, why don't you call it like, you know, you're going to really, things are really going to change in about 15 years. I think I started to get mean. Like, you know, because I, you know, people don't understand me. We knew, you know, like when you're up there, it's like, and people are attacking you. I mean, it comes to a point, you have to defend yourself, you know? Like, I never got, I never had that, in all honesty, I've never had that problem because my, I'm being serious. My act is so horrific. When people get upset, I agree with them. I have, you have, you're witty and my act is just my being a repulsive human being. So when I cross a line and people let me know, I go, yeah, I kind of agree with you on that. But I do find that when I was starting out, female hecklers always got under my skin. Most comics, if you ask them, describe your worst show when you snapped and you couldn't finish, it's usually a female heckler who got under their skin for obvious reasons. I think, yeah, I think the worst one I ever had was a male. I had a guy start a fight with me. A fist fight? No, but just like it got really bad. Like he started saying really insulting things. And you know, again, I had this, this, I had this with a guy once, he was talking the whole time and he was like 24, he was a good looking guy. And I said the same thing. I'm like, dude, you're like, he was like yelling on like, dude, you're like a young, good looking guy. Like, why are you so angry? So like, I would do with either, you know what I mean? I did it on both ends. I wasn't like, hey, honey, you should take a pretty, I was in both situations. I was trying, this is what I would do in the past is like, and I started doing more. I would kind of like try, if someone was being shitty, I would kind of like give them some chances. I would try not to be nice. I try to be nice. And then when they stopped, I was like, Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse, just be nice until it's time not to be nice anymore. Like sometimes people just, you kind of try to be nice and they won't let you be nice. And then you have to like get me. And the unfortunate thing with me is like, I can be really nice, but I can be really mean if I, and I think comedy trains you, because you know in comedy, you know how to size people up fast and you know what's going to hurt them. So you know what I mean? So I can get really mean and I don't like to, but sometimes. Have you ever won an argument? Have you ever been at a party? And gotten into a political discussion or just a discussion? No. And have you ever won an argument? No. I mean, that, Louis CK has a bit about that, right? He's like, you know, whatever wins an argument. No one's ever like, okay, yeah, you're right. That's the end of the argument. You win. Like in my mind, I'm like, it's clear that I'm, that I'm right and they aren't admitting it, but. And is that an American trait? I thought it was just like a New York trait. Well, I look at what's going on with Hillary and Trump and stolen a lot and nobody admits any, nobody ever admits that they're wrong. And I know, well, especially now, not him, but, but at least with the Kathy Griffin thing, at least like the left and liberals were like, owned up, like, well, that was not, she should not have done that. You don't see that on the other end, like whatever Trump did the right, the right, he doesn't ever like, yeah, he shouldn't have done that. Or it's like, well, what? Yeah, that's fine. At least with the Kathy Griffin thing, she admitted it was wrong. A lot of people on the left admitted it was wrong. Nobody. I feel like that. That's so easy to just go after Kathy Griffin. She held up his severed head with blood coming out. So what? That wasn't a death threat. Everybody, it's so easy to say, oh my God, that's terrible. She wasn't saying, let's do that to Donald Trump. She was making some kind of artistic point. He's a despicable human being. She wasn't calling for the guillotine. She was just holding up his head and this, it's an easy thing. It's a knee jerk response. She crossed a line. We can all agree that that's crossing a line. Meanwhile, he's pulling out of the Paris climate accords. No, I agree. I didn't like, I wasn't angry at that at all. I mean, I, I mean, I kind of what annoyed me the most about it was how quickly she apologized so profusely. I think that must have come from some kind of like government kind of scared her or like secret service or something. No. She apologized so fast. It was a kabuki move. It was a kabuki move. We all, really, I'm curious because to me it was, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. CNN just fired me. I'm so sorry that they fired me. Maybe I can get my job back if I say I'm so sorry. And we all watched knowing that she really wasn't sorry and she would do it again if she could. But because it cost her money and it got the wrong reaction, she's sorry, but she's not sorry if she hurt Trump's feelings. We all know that she's not a threat to Donald Trump. We all know that some, that nobody is going to sneak over the fence with a guillotine and drag Donald Trump out of his office and behead him. This is a kabuki move. No, I know. And it was ridiculous that they were like, oh, my son thought it was really me. I mean, that was kind of like really your son thinks like that you got beheaded by this comedian. Second to last question. And you don't have to answer this. You don't have to answer this question. Have you ever body slammed another man? Have you ever punched another man? You don't have to answer that question. After the age of 18, have you ever punched a man? After the, because I was about to say when I was young, like, you know, I was younger, I got into fights with. Yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to answer that. I got into like couples, but nothing really hard. You got into a couple. Right. I've got to like some scuffles, you know, like situations, but nothing really hardcore. Were you do you think? I feel like I've acted my way out of a lot of fights. Have you ever been in a fight? A fist fight where it was a decisive victory for somebody? Now there was no, you know, somebody went down and it was Ali standing over Sunny List and saying, get up, get up, come on, get up. Have you ever been in a fight? No, no, never. I've never been in a fight where it's like, oh, that guy got his ass kicked or that guy kicked his ass. So you've never been in a fight where you kick somebody's ass or you got your ass kicked? No. I can't say. Do you think there's any value? I'm just throwing this out there because older generations have been in fist fights. Now everybody has a gun. Now, you know, the whole thing. But is there any value to men getting into fist fights and there's a decisive victory? Well, I think that's what the whole like, like fight club was exploring that notion because they that was kind of, they were saying that that generation of men had never experienced, had never gotten in a fight. So it was a generation of men who had kind of all been emasculated and never really experienced something that that men had experienced for years as part of being a man, you know. So I think in fight club, they were saying, I need to get punched and punched because it's the only way I can feel alive the same way women cut themselves. That's the only way they can feel alive. Right. But it was it was commenting like the consumer culture where it was all about just men like buying things and they weren't really men. They weren't truly men anymore. Before you go. I don't know. I don't know how much I agree with that. I mean, like I like that movie and I like that book. See, I think there's a problem with millennials all getting this prize to show up where nobody loses. So then if nobody loses, nobody's wrong. How are you going to win a debate? How are you going to win an argument? How are you going to have a relationship? Part of a relationship is forgiveness, understanding and saying, I'm sorry, I'm wrong. If you are a millennial, I'm not saying they're all like this. I'm just saying the cliche is everybody gets a prize for showing up and don't damage this kid's ego. Yeah, what? Everyone's a winner. Everybody's a winner. Well, if everybody's a winner, then how do you? How do you succeed if everybody's a winner? How do you arrive at a truth in a debate? In a courtroom, if everybody's right, it's going to be great. Well, I think what happens is they, I think that's what's happening now. They're growing, they're getting a certain age where the world doesn't operate like that. And they, not all of them, but some of them that have been raised that way don't know how to handle it. So they think they're preparing them for the world by building up their self-esteem. But in reality, they've never dealt with adversity. So the world is hard. And they do kind of like, there is a lot of times like winners and losers. So when they're experiencing that after the real world, they're kind of like, why don't I understand this doesn't make any sense to me? Because I mean, everyone experiences, I experience that when I got in the world, I had an idea of the world. And the world didn't care about my idea of what I wanted the world to be. I call it millennial psychosis because when they came of age, we had the Great Recession. We had 911, the terrorist attack. We had the war in Iraq. They did grow up with a lot of adversity, but somehow they were trained to believe that the world is gentle and I call it the millennial psychosis where they don't see the horror that surrounds them. And like that comic who criticized you, she doesn't understand that the audience loathes her and that she's not entertaining. It's psychotic that she can't hear the silence. Yeah. Well, that also might be a young thing too, no matter what. Because I remember when I was my, you know, I'm a generation X, we were in our 20s, we were just- I'm a generation X-Lex. It's a target. Oh, okay. Generation X-Lex. Nice. Because I'm old, see. Let everybody, let's just pause, acknowledge that I made that joke. People now can roll their eyes and shake their head and bewilderment and continue. So your generation X-Lex. But I just remember when we were in our 20s, we were kind of the target of the slackers and what are you guys doing? But I feel like in your 20s, it's just kind of a fit. It's different for, you know, it changes because of like technology and what people experience. But a lot of people in their 20s kind of get black no matter what. Because they're turned to be kind of the whipping boys of like- Because I remember Gen X. I was like, oh, Gen X. You guys, what are you guys doing? You're just so lazy and tiled. And I just, it just seems like that's what's happening with millennials. Yeah. Yeah. They're just getting, it's just their turn to get it. What kind of- You know, people are jealous. They're young. They're young. Yeah. So what kind of law do you want to practice? Well, I think I, you know, when I first went into it, I wanted to do intellectual property, you know, because I kind of wanted to maybe work in entertainment since I had worked in entertainment for so long. So I'm still, I'm still like on that path, like trademark law. Next year I'm taking, they have this like clinic for the whole year that I'm taking for trademark law. So I'm interested in that. Right. The only thing is that those are kind of hard to get, those jobs, but we'll see. All right. I'm working for the government. I'm working for the, this will be the last, I'm working for the government this summer and they have like a trademark department. So maybe I'll do that. Well, this has been fantastic. It really has been. It's been fun and it's- Has it been interesting? Oh, yeah. Well, you're living my fantasy. Tom McCaffrey is a comedian and a law school student and you're going to be performing at the Broadway. Where are you performing next? Tomorrow I'm at this place, Black Cat. It's this like place down in the East Village on Ludwell, I believe, and then Broadway Saturday, like in the upstairs room. Well, you're a great comedian and I'll tell you what. Thank you. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to rob a liquor store when you graduate from law school and pass the bar, just to be your first client. Oh, perfect. And maybe I'll even commit a hate crime. Just to get you some business. That'll be perfect. This was great. The tape will have to be destroyed. Is there anything such as a comedian client privilege? I don't know. Thank you. Thank you so much. A comedian client. Now there isn't. Okay. Thanks a lot, man. Thank you. This was great. Come back. Come back. Come back. Yeah, please. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Tom. Bye, man. Bye, bye. Bye, bye.