 Good afternoon appreciate everybody showing up, you know, I remember the last time we were in a tent It was about a hundred fourteen degrees, but it was on the roof and the air conditioning did work so well So this is pretty good This is I guess the the sixth meet-the-pad fed panel we actually were fed pretty well anyway meet the fed panel love that I participated in and This year we went international so we have a representative from the Royal Canadian Mountain Police with us this year So appreciate it. I'm Jim Christie. I'm a criminal investigator with the Air Force Office special investigations And I'm the director of the defense cyber crime Institute What we're going to do this morning this afternoon is I'm going to do a quick bio on each of our members of the panel Then I'm going to let them have a one to two minute opening statement And I know Keith Rhodes will have to cut him off because he can't say anything in one to two minutes And then at that point we're just going to open it up to questions from the floor So let me start out with They're not in any particular order. It might be an alphabetical order Don Blumenthal if you'd raise your hand on Don is the internet lab coordinator for the Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection Mr. Blumenthal established the overseas labs managing consumer protection technical support group and provides technical expertise to investigations that involve system issues His career also includes time with another federal agency, and I don't know what that means Don. What does that mean? No comment. Okay. It's one that nobody's heard of. It's not that it's sacred He's also had time in the private sector and as a legislative director for a member of the House of Representatives Who? Louis Stokes Northeast Ohio And his alternate universe mr. Blumenthal is about to start his 23rd year as a part-time scout for the Oakland Raiders So that's an interesting background OV Carroll raise your hand OV Okay OV Carroll is a special agent in charge of the computer crime unit for the United States Postal Service Office of Inspector General the computer crime unit is responsible for all computer intrusions investigations analysis and support Technical computer surveillance equipment and support to other criminal investigative organizations OV was also he's a retired Air Force Office Special Investigations agent where he had 20 years Law enforcement experience with the Air Force before going into retirement with the Postal Service Okay, Gory you're gonna have to pronounce your name for us RCMP My name is Gary DeNorm with the Royal Canadian Mount of Police in Ottawa, Canada And I guess I'll let Jim do the rest of the talking on my bio He was scared that he was gonna bastardize my name. So you glad to be here. Hey Okay, Andy freed I don't have a bio wand because he doesn't answer emails He doesn't know how to do internet stuff But I've known Andy for he's with the IRS I've known Andy from since about 1986 and I got to tell you in 1986 through probably 1992 All the investigative software used by any computer crime investigator worldwide was written by Andy free 1992 we found out it didn't work Mike Jacobs Wow, we got a lot of NSA is here. All right Okay, if you're in to say raise your hand Why okay? Mike is the vice president of SRA international director of the cyber and national security program Prior to SRA. Mr. Jacobs was the information assurance director at the national security agency responsible for development and Provisioning of information security products service services operations for the federal government Also, Mike was the mayor of College Park, Maryland So whenever University of Maryland won a basketball game or lost a basketball game and they burned down the the city You know Mike would be on them on the news. I'm sure that made NSA happy Rich Marshall Esquire also known rich for a long time senior information assurance representative Office of legislative affairs national security agency NSA's Legislative Affairs office the agency point of contact for all NSA matters concerning Congress is Committing to maintaining in relationship with Congress built on trust Their operating principles are the five C's. Oh my god. I can't believe you put this in there Candor completeness correctness consistency and corporateness I I never You got more shit with you than a Christmas turkey He was the former principal deputy director of the critical infrastructure Assurance office the chow Bureau of Industry and Security Department of Commerce Before joining the chow. Mr. Marshall served with distinction. You wrote this didn't you? Okay? Served with distinction as the associate general counsel for information systems System security for the information assurance office of the general counsel's national security agency for over eight years Mr. Marshall also represented the United States before the High Court of Justice in London and has addressed various international Department of Defense Army Navy and Air Force legal Conferences and and now he has DEF CON on his resume Mr. Keith Rhodes No clapping you notice Keith Rhodes is the chief technologist and Director of the Center for Technology and Engineering for the US GAO Anybody know what GAO stands for? Wrong wrong they changed their name. It's a government accountability office as a y'all failed. Okay For the past 10 years he's led that team and has tested the information security of US government You know as the investigative arm of Congress, you know, everybody else up here on the panel just loves Keith and his folks He regularly testifies before the US Congress and has addressed foreign governments speaks publicly about the results of the tests and On the off chance that something might improve David Thomas No clapping for you either David Thomas was designated a special agent of the FBI in 1989 after completing training He was assigned to the Tampa Division where he worked violent crime matters. So that's why he's here In October 1996 special agent Thomas was promoted to the position of supervisory special agent in charge of violent crimes and domestic terrorism Upon completion completing that assignment with the Tampa Division. He was transferred to FBI headquarters. Who'd you piss off? I Did two years down there in July of 2004 Mr. Thomas was promoted to the position of section chief the cyber counterterrorism counterintelligence and computer criminal computer intrusion investigations Additionally is responsible for the development of the FBI cyber intelligence unit and cyber action teams which deploy domestically and internationally in response to major cyber events Dr. Linton Wells a lot of you heard him speak Who's who's sucking up over there? Actually dr. Wells was my boss when I was down the FBI so I'm a little pissed at you, sir Dr. Wells assumed duties as the acting assistant secretary on 8 March 2004 and be gained the principal deputy assistant secretary of defense for network and information integration on August 20th 1998 Prior to assignment. He was served in the night in the office of the under secretary of defense for policy since July of 1991 most recently as the deputy under secretary of defense policy support since 1998 in 26 years of naval service dr. Wells served in a variety of surface ships including command of a destroyer squadron and a guided missile destroyer in addition he Required he acquired a wide range of experience in operations analysis Pacific Indian Ocean Middle East affairs network and information integration and special access program oversight Wow dr. Wells was born in Angola, we won't tell him the year He was he was graduated from the US Naval Academy in 1967 and holds a bachelor's science degree in physics and oceanography He attended graduate school at Johns Hopkins University received a master's of science of engineering degree in mathematics Mathematical sciences and PhD and international relations He's also a 1983 graduate of the Japanese National Institute for defense studies in Tokyo the first naval officer to attend their Dr. Wells was written widely has written why Widely on security studies in English Jap and Japanese journals He's co-authored Japanese cruisers of the Pacific War, which was published in 1997 and his hobbies include history The relationship between policy technology scuba diving and flying so I read his whole bio because he's my boss We have one one other person on the far end And you can't see him. It's raise your hand Andy the seat on your left on your right that's the CIA and But they're actually he's the individual is actually sitting among you, okay? So, oh, I forgot Robert because Robert we just added Robert Mars, Sr. I Met Robert last year officially chief scientist for for NSA and the way I met him was through his son so So pretty good panel, so I'm hoping the questions are going to be pretty good Before we start the questions the panel asked me to do a thing asked me for a favor and asked they wanted to do a survey They would like they'd like to know we tried could everybody please stand up for a second Okay, if you're with NSA, please sit down Couple a couple wobbles there, okay If you've never broken the law by breaking into somebody else's system, please sit down a couple of the cameras weren't working Could you guys please stand up again? Okay Those of you we did this five years ago, and you know, I can't believe you guys fell for it again I hope you have clean underwear and a toothbrush because we got the patty wagons lined up out back So with that what we're gonna do is we're gonna start with rich and go right down the line and let everybody Make a one to two minute opening statement, and then we'll just open it up to you guys. So rich I'm gonna be real quick couple of things. This is a legitimate deadhead shirt. I am first-generation dad Spent a lot of time partying spent a lot of time partying with Jerry when he was alive and loved it Never did or never have been caught doing the drugs. I've been Tested 17 times at NSA. I mean they recognized me when I walked in I Can't remember what year a couple other things you know about Jim mentioned that I'm a lawyer. I was the legal architect for eligible receiver 97 that was an important event in The United States history because that demonstrated to senior leadership that information warfare was not a theory It was a reality and that was the time that Dick Clark decided he wanted to be a cyber security expert And the two of the people that really were instrumental in helping make that program work are on the panel with us today Dr. Lin Wells we work very closely putting that together and my former boss and great friend Mike Jacobs Just absolutely awesome guys And my association with Bob Morris we can't talk about but it was through him not his son. He's an absolutely awesome guy Tremendous respect for him Last thing I want to talk about is we would love to have your resumes if you're clean Not talking drug. Well, yeah, we are but For you slip But particularly in today's environment, it's very critical that we have the best and brightest working on solutions and Work with us on those solutions come and join the team. Send me a resume. We'll make sure it gets the appropriate consideration Fair enough. Thanks. Dr. Wills You don't hear me in the back As I mentioned earlier for those of our chance to hear a DoD is moving toward this concept of network centric operations Which really puts a greatly increased premium on the importance of the network and thus protecting the network We've got a very sort of worldwide homogene or heterogeneous complex set of missions which don't necessarily map to the private sector security concerns and so we certainly don't have all the answers and I second The point here of we need to need to work with you. We need address new resumes the point I would ask though specifically is What concerns me is not the kind of casual hacker for recreation or thrills I'm really concerned about people who are trying to get into DoD's networks to steal the information or Conduct attacks that disrupt what we're doing. We have people out there today from Afghanistan to Iraq to Darford or whatever these people's lives are on the line They depend on these networks and it's not just a casual thing for them. So what I'd ask is you know a little less noise in the system the intrusions the the The probing the whatever basically moves our resources away from things that really need to be Addressed and there clearly are people out there who are trying to do us harm and harm to the kind of values I think that most of us share about the value of information being shared so I'd ask for your cooperation and Look forward very much to working with you and getting your ideas. Thanks very much I promise not to give a speech I'm sorry. My whole speech is no comment. I will very likely before the end of this break that promise But there's something substantive. I want to say The smartest and brightest of you we need you guys Two things one is if you're reasonably good do consider Seriously coming to the government including my organization that also badly needs brightest and best There is one Side issue though that you need to take care of We would like to hire the best of you and We will if we possibly if you can apply and do apply But There's a line don't cross the line Others will say that to you also. Hey, it's okay to smoke pot. I'm sorry Okay, thank you Bob But don't get caught otherwise no comment just a little bit of a bio on my on myself here I'm in charge of the network and information operations team in Ottawa and basically our team is Composed of civilian members and regular members and we are also looking for some talent to come to the RCMP and It's an honor being in front of some of the brightest guys and people ladies and men in the tents here today We investigate he's talking about the panel You to a gym We investigate unauthorized use of computers mischief to date anything to relate it to computer crime Incidents and also where the the tech crime branch is the contact for any international agency We're 24-7 and so if anybody's any incident regarding Computer-related incidents they call us and then we'll disseminate to the right agency within Canada Thanks, right Mike after three years in the private sector a couple of observations On my career at NSA I work predominantly with the Department of Defense And now in the private sector most of my clients are in the civil governmental side of the government The conditions there are perhaps what the Department of Defense experienced 25 years ago But they are improving So too is the product space most of the failures that we're seeing today is in the human domain Stupidity in many cases Your skills and the activity that you're engaged in help us learn every day But as Bob said don't cross the line. We do need you both in the government We need you in the private sector There's an awful lot to be done our near total dependency on the network today as a nation Requires us to do the very best that we can In terms of improving the security and the integrity of those networks Now last year when I was here I Had the opportunity to auction off to a single purchaser an NSA t-shirt And that purchaser bit gave me $60 for an NSA t-shirt that I didn't pay anything for That all went to charity of course now this year I have two NSA t-shirts Is the guy here who bought it for 60 bucks last year because these are different On the other hand, I'm willing to trade both of these t-shirts one each for a legitimate resume of someone I can hire Thank you David Thank you Dave Thomas with the FBI and on behalf of the FBI. I appreciate you coming This being from the great state of Tennessee this somewhat reminds me of an old-time tent revival and If any of you feel the power coming over you I Just want you to know that we're authorized to take confession 24 hours a day I'm living proof that the FBI doesn't always hire the best and the brightest so For all of you the rest of you out there you there is a chance stay with it Keith Hello, my name is Keith Rhodes. I'm with the GA L speak up. We can't hear you. Okay What I would like to say is that five years ago when I sat on this panel I Said the following statement we always get in Five years hence. We always get in Is that short enough for you? If you would like you still going to the legislative branch and test the security in the executive branch Give me your resume I'm OV Carol with the postal inspector general's office. We respond to the incidents involving the 35,000 Postal networks as well as do is all the computer crime computer forensics for criminal investigations Investigated by the postal inspector general's office. We have an announcement out on USA jobs at opm.gov or Dallas Denver LA and Washington DC right now, so Don a little too quick. I wasn't quite ready there I Know a lot of people a lot of people here have been at a number of these sessions before but the FTC is new To meet the feds, so I wanted to talk a little bit about what we do and what our involvement is closer. Okay It I've known about DEF CON for years really appreciate the opportunity to come because I wanted to and now Since I'm on the panel I could get the agency to pay for it We're we're an independent agency and we're a civil law enforcement agency only We've been in internet and online activity law enforcement for I think our first case was 1994 and because of the wording of our mandate I Which is one of the broadest in the federal sector? We can dabble in just about anything we think might affect consumers So in the internet world we have dealt with good old scams, you know the things that used to be in the back of the magazines But are not on now on websites We have dealt with mousetrapping page-jacking a lot of technical things that really are techniques new to the internet couldn't have been done before One of our biggest areas right now best known program I think of my division I'm not mad the division that my groups in is you do not call list which is Prop yeah, I think it's the thing we're best known for these days But the other thing that we have going is our spam law enforcement. We were one of the earliest we have the spam database spam at uce.gov Forward your messages to that address they're indexed within an hour and there for us and now other law enforcement agencies to use to find Raw evidence in spam investigations We on the law enforcement side we come at this from a little bit different angle we are civil I can't threaten anybody with jail but on the other hand My burden of proof is a lot lower than in a criminal side, and I don't have to prove intent So very often we can make the cases that the creams can't and frequently we work with them We will if we decide it's crossed the line will hand it over that's happened in some fishing matters We've brought fishing, but some of them are even beyond what we should be doing The other thing is we do security cases We have kind of marked ourselves out as big in the whole area of consumer privacy Consumer security But the difference with us is when we brought a security case. We have not gone against the people doing the breaches Our defendants have been the companies who have allowed themselves to be breached with idiotically Maybe that's a bad word with with weak security systems on for example online ordering systems or a wireless per Point of sale system that case just hit about six weeks ago So our view is more toward the consumer and as a result where the consumer has heard is more by the companies That are breached rather than the folks who do that work We've got some ideas for some other things, but at least that's the types of case we brought so far Thanks, Tom Hi, my name is Andrew freed with the Treasury Department been there 17 years For those of you that were not caught because my software didn't work you can thank me later When Jim Christie and I first got involved in computer security, there was no internet publicly available It's been very interesting seeing how a lot of people have come up to the ranks and And put together programs that were just amazing. Can't hear you Like the mess with the sound guys Basically, you know, we want to say to all of you that if you're interested in law enforcement and you have a computer background It's a really good lifestyle. It's a lot of fun Sometimes people don't like you showing up with your doorstep, but For the most part it's very challenging and rewarding and I would once again Invite all of you that are interested in law enforcement to pursue it try and stay as clean as you can And see us after the show Thanks guys What I wanted to say before we just we're going to open up to questions in a second I need you to speak up because got the fans going, you know, it's hard to hear up here And this mainly for the media After every DEF CON meet the fed panel, you know, there are headlines that we all have to go back and answer for that says We're here recruiting hackers, which means to our bosses criminals. That's not why we're here Like everybody here on the panel said we're looking for the folks who haven't crossed that line yet If you cross the line, we want you to stop because you're adding that noise to our networks Where we're trying to prevent and catch the real bad guys the nation states, etc So, uh, but uh, if you've crossed over that line, we're not hiring hackers That's just for the media because you guys don't get it right very often That was the press booing Um, so at that point, um, I also have t-shirts that are for trade Okay At the defense cyber crime center, we do have jobs available. You don't have to be a law enforcement agent We have forensic examiner positions and programmers and engineers to do Development research and development of digital forensic and investigative tools So lots of opportunities for those who are interested. Okay, let's open this up to questions and be loud That are hung up on somebody Thank you. How many of these agencies here are hung up on the applicant requires to have a bachelor's degree As opposed to just experience certifications, etc I'll start that at the defense cyber crime center You have to compete but if you have experience You don't have to have a degree to be a forensic examiner nor an engineer to develop a tools so Um, anybody else on the panel want to take that? I have no hang-ups nor does the organization Louder I have no hang-ups. So this is whether or not you have a degree Uh, yeah, as jim said though, uh, within within any service, whether it's the government service or a large contractor Now your competitive position relative to promotion other things does depend upon the degree sometimes Now but in terms of your ability to perform the work whether or not you have a degree And that's what i'm looking for Is there any reason why you don't have women on your panel? No No Next question I'd just like to say that three of my deputy assistant secretaries are women so Boss is a woman as well as we have a one of our females out in the audience right now just doesn't want to come up She's very shy gentlemen, um, this is not a uh attack against any one of you or your individual departments However, I would like to know why the federal government Especially some of the law enforcement agencies are destroying this country and to clarify this position I would like to read uh Two paragraphs from the july can I see your badge? Can I see your badge? Why is it in your pocket? You hiding? No, sir. Oh, okay. Okay. Is that a press pass? No, sir. Okay Okay The fbi is now under the full control of the executive office so that our president now has his own Good stop out. Then we have the national security service. They forgot to tell me that i'm sorry form Without congressional approval as part of the new anti-terrorism legislation This new group has already been dubbed the ss. It operates under the okay. Can we cut him off because? Okay Anybody want to take that let's go back to that best and brightest scenario I think if we had those capabilities we'd brag about it But we don't we don't use microwave. We're pretty uh on the up and up I'd just like to know briefly from each of the members of the panel I'm sure you're aware of the the big sisco thing that happened this week I'd like to hear what the the various agencies have to think about that I think that um if you're If you have a fundamental flaw Starting in the operating system That's what we are fighting against. I mean that's why I can get in that's why you can get in There's a trade being made all the time And that trade is between operational whatever and security and I don't know anyone and Part of me revels in this idea because that means I'm going to be employed forever But I don't know anyone who's getting Any corporate organization that's building software right now to do it right Richard Powers in the audience and he and I spoke at a software development conference. I guess it was in 2000 And I talked about how it was the fault of the people in that room That I could do what I can do Because if I can utilize a buffer overflow Because everybody's writing to the same address space in memory Then that software is crap And it should be fixed But I don't know that anything Has happened enough To get anybody's attention except a bunch of people sitting in the tent in Las Vegas I mean, you know How many years ago did you lose 80,000 credit cards? Now you got 42 million Anybody go to jail? Anybody get shot dead in the street over that? Anybody get hung from a tree? No So I guess I have to turn it Back to you if you're expecting You know, I'm not a law enforcement person I'm just a tester like you all Except the ones who are working for the folks up here on the panel But I mean the other folks on this panel have credentials right That but they can't execute laws that don't exist. They can't they can't enforce something That's not there So if the infrastructure is broken Or as peter neumann says so clearly the infrastructure stinks and it just stinks more and more and more Because it becomes more complicated Then yeah, you can say okay, just go this and microsoft that and blah blah blah and you can say well, it's fine I run whoppings, you know, well great. That's got problems too Everything has problems. So where's Where's the result that's coming? from you folks I mean Yeah, you're out doing your thing and you know, you're breaking in which is kind of trivial because if you can't break a Wi-Fi connection with two ten cans in a string you better go home But the point is that you're doing what you're doing But where's the result? When does it get to the board room? That's my question to you and to all of you Because we can only do what we can do That's it. Dr. Wells. Did you do want to respond on it? I just say from defense's perspective the u.s. Surge has issued a vulnerability alert and we're taking action response to the vulnerability alert Next question. Yes, sir. This is a question repeated from five years ago. I think just following up Hey It's so each of the agencies as a parent and a teacher What do your agencies now offer as far as internships scholarships and things like that to bring people to the good side to have them Work in your professions to train them to be in your fields I'll take first shot at that. We have four interns at the defense cyber crime institute today I was at black hat talking to several uh institutions Working with jack hollerin jack hollerin hooked us up with a local university in baltimore where we're going to Kind of mentor the students that are doing digital forensics and offer internships and absolutely but but the problem is We had a a series of There's cyber core, which is a scholarship for service Uh, uh, uh, cool And yeah, how you doing? How you doing? And what what what we were doing is all these institutions came to to meet with us And they wanted to know what they should be teaching students. So we would hire them and and my my Mine was real simple You got to teach them not to do drugs and break into other people's systems if you teach that You know the technology there's plenty of technologists out there So you got to give us folks with the right morals and the right value set Uh, and yeah, absolutely anybody else All right, let's follow up a bit on the cyber core The cyber court Okay now All right following up a bit on the cyber core. There are 52 universities in the united states today that are Uh capable of distributing scholarships and fellowships through the cyber core program Now those 52 universities are universities that have been designated and as nsa centers of excellence in information security education What comes with a cyber core scholarship or fellowship? Is essentially an internship and a job within a federal agency It's an obligation of the student when they take the cyber core scholarship or fellowship It's essentially a service for for fee situation There are some 400 450 cyber core students in the system today And there are several hundred that have already joined federal agencies Now that program has been quite a success on the um On the canadian side of it, uh, we also have co-op students who come within the agency And we see how they perform. They're there for either up to four months or eight months or it could be a year and We we monitored or monitored their progress and eventually later on if if they do want to come back to the government agency And if their positions are available, they may get hired So we do have a co-op program in place within the rcmp Dave as the fbi has an extensive program of scholarships tuition reimbursements It's a lot detailed information is available on the fbi website We have tuition reimbursement and we've also brought in cyber core students and we have summer intern programs We also have summer intern programs We've got summer intern programs, um tuition reimbursement and um I appreciate the question because it reminded me to ask some folks around here about us taking advantage of the cyber core program and I Not sure I would remember to do that without it The irs does have summer intern programs as well So we've come some way in five years, huh? Eight Line up over here, uh, actually this is uh addressing the gentleman from the gao a G gao gao gao About your response to the question earlier With uh what michael did and uh sisco And his own company trying to sue him for what he was doing Uh to be a responsible action trying to let the community know that this problem was there Even though sisco didn't want the information released um I'd like to know what the uh the organizations that you all represent are doing To change the laws in this country to quit holding accountable the individuals that are releasing this information trying to improve things rather than make the The vendors responsible for Taking appropriate actions and releasing the information One one real quick thing ladies and gentlemen um You can't spot these guys Sorry Please do not approach me after the panel and go I spotted a fed and then drag one of these poor gentlemen up That's just not fair It's kind of like sleeping with your sister, you know You slept with his sister Your sister Actually, yeah, your sister was pretty good Better that than my mother though and by the way, roy, would you stand up? Contrary to popular belief torrenra. This man is not a fat. Okay mystery solved Thanks guys. I forgot I stepped on you. Thank you Yes, I'm I'm with the mic now sir We are doing the men of defcon calendar We ask the women and the women only please if there is a man you would like to see on the website in terms of the men of Defcon Since we we've exploited you guys women that is uh for the last god how many years now A lot of the women from the uh women in hacking talk have asked if if they could exploit you guys So the answer is yes women. You are now able to objectify the man If if if you find a man that you find would be a good addition Be he a geek and fat ass like I am or incredibly in shape like the gentleman behind me That you would you like big butt sir. Congratulations I think there's a song about that for you sir Please have them see q You can find q through the information booth. Please make sure your subject is willing Okay, we don't want you kidding them over the head and raping them. Oh, I'm sorry. Wait, let's see. I'm sorry Yes, sir just bear with me here. Okay. I realize you're not getting any but some guys are And it's not naked. It's shirt optional and it's nothing nasty. It's just a picture of you on the web page nothing identifying It's just for the girls to vote on who's the sexiest guy at Defcon. So thank you Well since I I think the question was directed to me. I'll respond to it We report what we find to the congress and we report What we find to the congress in a way of saying this is open and this is closed So what's closed information? We're telling them that the general public doesn't have it and what's open information We're saying this is what the public does have So we make the distinction It's up to the lawmakers To make the law All we can do is tell them Just like all the law enforcement people up on this panel can do is enforce the laws that exist Next question I'm really glad that I had the HR department prepped everyone. Sorry. I did have a question And that was that that you know when department of Homeland Security talks about You know Very big concepts that can be boiled down to three words like critical infrastructure protection How do you Conceptually, you know protect the nation's critical infrastructure from a grassroots roots effort i.e Infraguard By doing something like this. I mean, it's very difficult. You can you can protect the planes You can you can make it look good on the news But in terms of uh affecting terror and things like that There are many many easier ways to do this that we know that we just cannot protect against But what kind of grassroots efforts are you cultivating uh to try to To at least reduce the risk exposure I'm not sure I understand exactly the question But there are and you did mention infraguard and I'll answer because it is an FBI program But infraguard is a cooperation between the FBI and industry There's over 14 000 members and we expect those members to come forward We share information with them on vulnerabilities and assessments and things that you don't get into public Because they're part of that and uh, and I know the secret service. They're not here, but I'll speak for them They have a there are new york crimes like like chronic crime crimes task forces Which are similar to infraguard So there are a lot of efforts out there between us and private industry to share information Okay, do we have time for one last I'm part of the Maryland infraguard. The big thing we've discussed is how to build better education awareness to everybody First they have to understand the problem before we can give them solutions One more time for one more question here By the way, I teach security awareness courses for dummies with win short top My question is back to the centers for excellence that you were talking about mr. Jacobs And three or four years ago. I was at syracuse university as a reporter for computer world And I was covering the masters program as they were undergoing the criteria exchange become a center for excellence In the masters program and I wrote about this There are 32 students one of them was american The rest of them were from the pacific rim and the middle east And I was wondering what we can do to protect our educational outreach so that it goes to the right people To be a member of the cyber core You are looking we are they're looking for americans that are clearable for the most part at the end of the day To suggest that our educational system, however Should restrict its offerings only to americans generally Are there any academics in the room? I think you'd have a real serious problem with that Your observation at syracuse is no different than mine when I used to visit NSA centers of excellence At some of the earlier schools. I was struck By the composition of the classes that I was addressing Perhaps better than 60 percent of them were not americans That's just the price you pay for having a premier educational system And the education we dispense is helping people globally anybody else want to take a shot at that Okay, oh yeah, absolutely bob Hey too soon We would like to hire you Please don't cross the line That that concludes the meet the fed panel. Thank you guys got t-shirts Thank you