 Yeah, American issues take two. I'm J5L. This is Think Tech. We're gonna talk about Trump. We don't like talking about Trump We think maybe it's a good idea not to talk about Trump, but we're gonna talk about Trump and hmm why we shouldn't listen to him Okay, so this is called what future for Trump now And we have my co-host that Tim Apichella We have our special esteemed guest wiki Kaitano and we have Stephanie Stull Dalton. It was a regular contributor here on American issues take two welcome to all of you to the show Tim we're gonna talk about Trump today. I really don't like talking about Trump We've all agreed that it's probably better for the world if we don't say even repeat his name But you know, he's raw meat for the press everybody wants to talk about him and people want to hear about him And there's nobody else they'd rather hear but let me let me ask you if there was somebody else out there Another entertainment person another person, you know, who likes, you know The kind of show that the apprentice was who likes raw meat on television Who likes to follow it day-to-day and see the machinations and all that? Wouldn't that help? Right now He's the only show in town in terms of the fellow who presents, you know This kind of exciting entertainment every day who wants needs and has methods who appear in the headline every bloody day Well two points by the way, good morning, Jay Two points on that is remember Donald Trump's announcement for the 2024 presidency is the earliest in history a candidate has ever put forth We could talk about why he did that. I think it was tried to flummox the pending indictments coming against them but So it's way early in the game. So why would another candidate repeat such a silly mistake? They wouldn't they're gonna wait they're gonna probably wait until March of 2023 or April or whatever but so Donald Trump is way ahead of the game and I think it's gonna work horribly against them because Donald Trump in 2016 we talked about this before the show was the the sideshow of the circus and people were had never seen that before quite like Donald Trump put it out there and They were they were you know enthralled and the media was enthralled and that's what we got and Donald Trump was reluctant as a result of all that immediate tension But now 2024 we've seen this show We've paid the price of entry and I think a lot of Americans are done with it. They're burned out Trump fatigue Whatever you want to call it So the sideshow is no longer learning So do we need another side show to compete with Donald Trump? Maybe not probably not Carrie Lake comes to mind. She's a great sideshow, but she's not but she has not been elected. She's been thrown out She's done. So to answer your question. We don't need a computer Excuse me a competitor when it comes to a sideshow Hmm Vicki, you know, it may be that we just have to wait a little and see Trump do some self-destruction here in the next few months And maybe that will be, you know, the opportunity for somebody else to pop up to emerge and be a competitive entertainment feature Do you have any thoughts on when that might happen and who it might be? You know, Tim, I hear what you're saying and Jay, but I wouldn't put it past him, you know, I think He sees that his base is starting to crumble and I think he's starting early to rebuild that And while Carrie Lake may be out, you still have Marjorie Taylor Greene Okay, and she's very much another one of those Entertainment sideshows. The sad thing I think is that many of the American public today Don't either have the Interests or desire to learn more and talk about the issues. They're distracted with these larger than life or better or worse Personalities that suck up all the energy almost cult-like Cult-like really follow to the to their death kind of a thing and I wouldn't put it past him to find a way to Resurrect himself into another persona, perhaps a victim now I Mean he just it never fails to shock or you know to shock me and how he can find a way to still Gain not maybe a lot, you know the majority but still a good number of our population and voters and that's what's scary Yeah, what's scary is it's not just one thing. It's not just the entertainment aspect of the thing of the things too I got an article from Rolling Stone here. Is it and Very interesting that they are saying not dissimilar from what we're saying is that he is Intimidating people are trying and that was part of his playbook before Once he achieved a certain level of power that he would intimidate everybody around him and demand their loyalty and Threaten them and they I'll just read the first paragraph of this Rolling Stone political article In the day in the days running up to the election Trump made a series of phone calls to GOP lawmakers and other elected officials demanding that they endorse him Before he announced that he's running you love it Or at least right after he announces that according to two sources with knowledge of the conversation The president said he was I don't call him the president Trump said he was tracking who endorsed him early Adding that those who waited too long end quotes were quote not gonna like what happens when he wins And Trump who lost the 2020 election had long operated on the assumption that he'll win back the White House He he also said he was keeping tabs on who jumped ship for Florida governor Ron DeSantis or other potential 2024 political challenges the sources say this much more to it. It's very interesting But I raised it Stephanie because I want to run it by you in terms of in another Weapon in Trump's no playbook and that is intimidating people Apparently he started doing that even before the election the midterm election and undoubtedly he's doing it now Is it is it effective? It's it going to be effective. Could it be effective later? I certainly agree on your pointing out critical issue about him But it as as important and integral to his path is his Indefatigability he never stops okay, and he is in his own fantasy world Believing all of these things that's not going to change even in the face of familial Disregard for his his new campaign yet. That was interesting that Yvonne does not Participating and sort of looks like her husband sort of half in half out But nevertheless he will not stop and this is reminding me of all I'm hearing today on and PR about Netanyahu in Israel. It's exactly very similar. It's a similar I don't know if it's exactly not but the point is that Netanyahu has been indefatigable to and stayed on it and stayed on it to the point where now Israel has the most conservative right wing government they have ever had meaning like the two-state Plan is is not going to be useful anymore Anyway, it's such a very very difficult a difficult situation for them. And now we have him doing the same thing here and recall that The The election was narrow margin Okay, I sat there watching that we're down to these itty-bitty increments of point ten It just just just made no sense to me. So that did not inspire me that we're over the hump here We are not over the hump. There's a power base out there powerful base out there That's taking note of that and that's you're saying he can electrify it energize it and Intimidate it and work it to his his best degree J And I don't know what's standing in the way of him doing that now it he may get indicted something I don't know that there's anything that can get in the way of that so that we are fully Fully vulnerable still and we cannot stop for a minute To assume that he's in the box because he's not they're all still out there waiting for him Tim I want to go to where something we've talked about for months really Something that Stephanie just raised and that is the The effect of indictments, you know, I'm not encouraged by the delay over the past two years With the Department of Justice hasn't really found a way to indict him on anything zero Now we have a bunch of cases going on but you don't have an indictment. We don't have a result and So I'm wondering, you know a what effect has that had on his ability to Operate out of his playbook and be how will that affect his playbook if he is indicted and and the number three or C His is what do you think is he going to be indicted or not? Well in the last show I said Expect one in 30 days. We're now probably about day 23 I'm glad I didn't bet you a pizza on it, but I expect within 20 25 days You'll see an indictment roll out. I think you have to wait till the 22nd to see if the The circuit court is going to dismiss the master on the Mar-a-Lago case and if they dismiss the master I think you'll see one shortly thereafter But you know your question is what happens if he is indicted and you know, Donald Trump's Announcement that he is running for the 2024 Presidency he said multiple times. I'm a victim wait till he gets an indictment then he's going to be The victim with the exponential powers of victimhood. Yeah, that's true It's all the victimhood points are connectable There's the look that they're they're making me even more of a victim anything that happens to the Donald Trump He's going to say it's a witch hunt. I'm a victim and you could be a victim too Yeah, he's trying to basically incorporate their their support into his His emotions of victimhood and they have enough grievances on their own They have enough grievances on their own that they can translate those grievances into Donald Trump's victimhood You think it'll work then it does work it had it has worked But remember there's other factors other than you know his base and I think a big factor is money Look at Blackstone. They're pulling out major Republican donors are pulling out now Donald Trump may have a war chest of a hundred million dollars That's a that's nothing to sneeze at but when you start getting the media to pull out Covering for his coverage you get the dollars starting to pull away This is a serious iceberg to his Titanic and Watch out. He he may not get the funding that he thinks he's going to get and all the victimhood in the world is not going to change that Mickey You know what about the base because the base, you know in the absence of evidence of the contrary Although his big funders may be pulling out although the you know the people in liberal cities people like us, you know Are not affected not it is certainly not impressed by what he's doing but the but the base may still be loyal to him and You know when he threw his hat in a ring. I imagine he got a lot of new contributions Over that and if he had no other purpose it was to raise money So what do you think about the base and the money and their loyalty to him? You know, I think the only way to counter a surgeon Trampania, you know is really for the Republicans to find one or two other candidates to rally around and for them internally for that Dedicated base to come to their senses and say well, we have very different views from the Democrats Certainly, we don't need to rally around a lunatic, you know, who wants to be a dictator I think that if they can do that that is probably the better hope Really for the Democrats to have some kind of balanced conversation But the other thing I would say is I think a lot of this is going to hinge on where the economy is How we manage inflation? I think when people are satisfied and happy There's a lot less anger, which is what Trump is feeling, you know off of right the border They're taking our jobs. We just had this conversation with some folks the other night Nobody's taking any jobs without Hispanics Filipinos the immigrants in our country the economy would come to a standstill you couldn't function There'd be no restaurants. No hotel cleaners, you know But he's feeling off this because he knows it resonates with people who are not happy with their situation So I think a lot of it also depends on how our economy is You know, we were very impressed, Stephanie, with the fact that the box news, you know, has pulled their You know, support for him and that's an understatement of it And you know, and maybe other media will follow and certainly MSNBC and CNN are going to keep on pointing out that how off the wall he is But but the problem I started with is He's he's the guy. He's the Bonnie and Clyde. He's the anti-hero for the American people Nobody nobody presents them the same way. How can the media actually If they want to slow him down Well, I don't think they're going to be In control necessarily because the as I understand of the commentary on prospects For congressional people to do their work. It's going to it's going to be about investigations and again, this this Goes into Tim's point about the victimization So depending on how it is that the the republicans are going to spend their time In the house and how successful they're going to be with with those investigations and getting back at all of these ridiculous considerations and controversies and their conspiracy theories They're being they're being encouraged to not go that route. But nevertheless, I was very Encouraged that the White House Biden they've been preparing for this Eventuality which they thought was going to happen. So they're ready to go to to to fight back on on this I don't like using fight because I think that really they're trying to do everything to get into position to take advantage of any opportunity they're going to have with the Republicans to be bipartisan But they're they know the reality of it is they're going to have to get through this Jim Jordan stuff And if McCarthy is going to be able to control any of it So again going back to the point of the victimization Then he's got all of that agenda to work with And that is going to draw the base and that's going to feed the base and they may not be able to get past that So quite frankly over the next year. I think it's likely we're going to see a lot of him We're going to hear a lot of him. We're going to have the base lit up But but I think other factors will occur as he says we're going to have an economic situation improved, etc So the multifactorial here and it might get better, but it couldn't stay bad for a long time Here we are tim and We have we have to recognize that um as Stephanie does that this is dynamic And what we have today is you know, and this has been the case from our first coverage of trump Is it changes and all kinds of new factors move in Factors pro factors con it's part of you this This apprentice show You never know what's going to happen from day to day. It's like reality, isn't it? I mean, I'm wondering if you could help us understand What factors what changes coming forward going forward would help him and would hurt him If for example, you know, we teeter-totter on what's going on in ukraine With putin we teeter-totter on the economy. We teeter-totter on the southern border right now She has so many things that that could change dramatically. I mean to the point of you know, taking the headlines Um, I might add that the new york times yesterday Had a an editorial board article the likes of which I have never seen before They really let him have it Um, they it was a long article It probably occupied in the print in the print version the whole left hand column in the editorial page And it was it no holds barred. Uh, he's incompetent and he is not worthy Um, that's that was the principle of it. And if the press does that, uh, maybe maybe that's another element You know in all of this mix, but I want to know from you What what events what dynamics could change this this recipe going forward? Of question, um factors Well, we've already talked about some of the factors and that is one money campaign donation monies from the big the big the big funders Uh, number two is media coverage Number three though is the candidates themselves. We may see a spoiler candidate We may see a list cheney break out and say for the good of the country I'm going to run as an independent and she could pull the reasonable g lp out away from trump should he be the nominee um Also, you know jay remember a year ago We are fantasizing if you will you want to use that word fantasizing about a candidate who has standing and that candidate and standing would say Donald trump should be removed from the field under the article article 14 of the The constitution paragraph three And an indictment would go a long way into proving to a court that that candidate and standing no matter who it may be Has a good point So there's so many factors that are unknown. Um, but I think just a quality candidate to distract Away from the tired worn out trump fatigue issue that we're all experienced And and even the g lp base, I think are getting tired of them some of them And we're waiting for a quality candidate, but it's way too early I mean if ron to santas were to say sure i'm gonna run he just got elected governor That would really hurt him that he was you know His his run for it being governor of florida was all a sham because he never really wanted to be a governor of Of florida for a second term. So he can't put his hat in the ring for at least I say at least seven or eight months Um, so we're gonna be looking at other candidates. Who knows Yeah You know what do you think of mike pence? Do you think he's going to run? Oh, of course He said so if not explicitly certainly implicitly with his interview Mike pence, um, will be a nice Calm kind of like joe biden a nice soothing effect on the republicans saying. Oh, yeah I remember when it was kind of like to be normal as a party and mike pence would really represent that um When he throws his hat in the ring vicki, that's a great question Vicki who else do you think might you know emerge here? and uh and be the The person who could I don't want to say challenge, but I will say challenge trump at least for the headlines You know, I think that uh, the republicans Who so want to win you know in two years? Are going to look at it differently from the last election and I think that they recognize donald trump Uh, hopefully they're not going to be the base supporting him and with that said I think they may rally around One other candidate and go all in to support them. I uh, I don't think it will be a list cheney I think it's going to be more like a Uh, a pence or a desantis both of of whom will invoke the Religious issues and self-anointed, you know that it's providence I'm anointed by god to be the next president And energize that religious base to really get behind them That that's just my own feeling that that is something that could happen You know, stephanie, it's entirely possible that with trump sandberg a diet um, he may not have the health to last through 2024 or thereafter and I just wonder what you think will happen in the country That's going to create a you know, if it happened right now Um, it would create a big vacuum. Uh, we'll call it a political social Beyond all those things, uh a vacuum in the country in the news and in our public attention But what what would happen if trump disappeared off the stage? Uh, right now or in six months or in a year, what would happen to the country? Where are we? What would we be doing missing? um yearning for Would we survive as a democracy? I think it would be a welcome situation To to the large degree because recall that there are many secret republicans and others that Just can't take it either and there there is negative towards him as uh as democrats, uh, and liberals are but I think it would be fine. We move on, right? We have done jfk and we have done we've lost a lot of people and we keep on going and there's always someone competent to pick it up if we can um manage it I don't know that that's desantis given his extreme stance on freedoms and how many he's taken away and I'm just appalled at these people that are are getting so much acclaim And winning elections when they've done nothing to help their people and in particular ron desantis I mean even went after the mouse for crying out loud. I mean, I how can anybody forget that? So, um, I'm just uh Yeah, I think yes, it it raises In a question about what's going to happen, but it won't be but a heartbeat before The next person is going to step up. We'll find out who that is I I don't know if that pens his light in any fires and uh, he's just not going out much for the constitution or the country He's all about selling his book. So we've got some players here. It's just like the person that's going to be perhaps the next house Leader, so I'm there's somebody that's been running under the radar Maybe to me he's been under the radar. Maybe you all know about him but uh, so there's somebody out there that can do this and uh, I think the democrats have some fabulous Possibilities to draw on And we'll mention the california governor. He's doing quite well And I think would be eager to support america in some dire circumstance like that Or on his own volition So that that's uh, what I'm thinking american is resilient And uh, we come back and uh, we're gonna get over trump and the sooner the better and I think everybody's ready That's interesting. You put it that way in america America needs to come back and trump at the same time is trying to come back Where are we that we have to come back? Everybody has to come back Well, we just go forward He reinserted himself. I mean he was supposed to be gone two years ago So he inserted himself In the whole thing and he's going to continue to do that And we're going to have to endure it until he runs out of steam or hamburgers getting or some other issues Come up and he chooses to proceed. Well, it's worth it's worth watching although I I hate to use his name It's we have to watch it All the media has to watch it. Yes, you know, tim I wanted to ask you probably the most difficult question of the day and that's this In terms of the dynamic, um, you know, we have been following trump since Pretty much the beginning of his term in 2017 Um, and you know, we've called and so by various names and we've tried to connect the dots on it and And we've seen the country change Okay, we've seen all his machinations the machinations people around him Uh, you know who we merged as his loyal and faithful We've seen the base change if we were watching Um, and and I've seen the democracy change um, and and the people who were say 12 years old At the time you and I started to do this Um are now voting They didn't know anything. You know when they were 12 Most of them. Um now presumably they're you know, they're entrusted with the vote Um, so my question to you tim is How has our country changed? Since you and I started talking about this How has our democracy our view of the rule of law our view of government Our view of government officials How has the country's view changed and how has the view of those Informally 12 year olds How have how how is their view changed? Well, Joe, you know, you're right. We've been doing these shows for over five years. Uh, trump week That was a long running title for our show Um, I like to think those 12 year olds. We're watching our show and they're savvy voters I'm sure To answer your question. Um I think Democracy actually has sprung forward Look how many people are engaged in voting process Like we are seeing numbers like never before across the country. This is a good thing Even if they vote for Donald Trump, we have engaged voters And before we had a lot of apathy and you know, I hate to say but hawaii is probably the number one state for Low voter turnout, but my god look at how many people are engaged with politics And the topic of the day. So I think this is a good thing for democracy Um, I think also people realize How fragile democracy is and it doesn't take much to really Weaken its foundations and they've seen the you like to use that word machinations And that's a great word the machinations of donald trump to uh, basically chisel And detract from those foundations of democracy and it's not that difficult And so I think that's a real learning lesson for a lot of americans And I think the midterm elections prove that I think people were concerned about What direction election deniers are taking our politics and how they fall and lock step with donald trump And I think they said i'm going to vote differently I'm not going with the flow. So donald trump and his influence lost the independence And lost moderate republicans. That's what the difference was in this midterm election So I think many positive things have come forward in the last five years I also think that on the negative side that americans have become desensitized to outrageous words and behavior And donald trump still has that what I would call a hypnotic influence upon voters Basically to follow his words to the nth degree and donald trump as i've Former governor john wyhey said donald trump has given permission to a certain population to follow and like and Replicate his poor words and actions. So those are the negative things that I think we've seen in the last five years But I'm hopeful. I I'm really I'm really energized and very positive that Fox media is pulling away donors are pulling away and I think these are positive signs. So More more more hope for the future Vicki, I have a question this Just as challenging for you You know, how how has this whole trump experience? And you've been at the point of it as a as a candidate for governor How is this trump experience affected? Hawaii the voters in hawaii and the legislature in hawaii the government in general in hawaii And we are now at another, you know, one of our many inflection points Um, how do the midterms affect our voters and our government in hawaii? Oh, are we I'm put it this way. Are we closer? Um to what's going on in the mainland now than we were A few years ago and will we be closer still? Well, I think there's no question that hawaii is different from it from a decade ago And I I do think that's why I I like this show because what happens on the mainland Does impact hawaii and you can't deny that and sometimes just because of our location people here think Oh, that's the you know, the mainland. This is hawaii, but it does we're all connected together One of the things for me as an immigrant Asian that was very concerning with donald trump is there's no question that he fueled a lot of the anti asian You know the hate feeling Blame covet on china You know and and that definitely has Created more of that anger in our country And I think you're seeing some of that here In hawaii, although of course we're strongly democratic But there's there is more polarization than there was 10 years ago It's not a bad thing to have differing opinions. I think that's important to have differing views But how we come together to work through that for the good of the majority of the people That is what's at stake and I I hope that Trump's setting aside that we can have more balance in this country And that the 2024 elections will build well as the midterm has overall been I think for democrats It partly relates to the the conversation that's had with kim That one thing you can't deny none of us can deny is that there's been more hate We have grown to have more divisiveness and more hate and we still have it So let me go back to tim and say let's assume that let's assume that my perception of it is right That we do have more you know per vicki's thought We do have more hate more bigotry going on in the country and it happened during trump's watch and and in my view It's because of trump he just as he incited that January 16th insurrection. He also incited the hate How does the country recover from that because it could be that we have we have found our own devil here That we have found this kind of satanic Thing in our culture. How do you put the genie that the satanic culture back in the bottle? Um, you know what jay? I was I can't believe you brought that up because I was thinking of making that point So um, can I just jump in here and then go to tim because I wanted to make the point that What we have from trump is his base and he has incited or resurrected or Brought up a base of people into a power structure that we have not been very cognizant of before That is not going to change because those people are not going to give up their power So it's how is that those people are going to be managed are going to be influenced are going to be led That is going to make for um our devilment in the future or our way of somehow moving forward So tim I I just had that already was in my head. Yeah, no, I think you're spot on I think you're spot on and again I think donald trump brought out the underbelly of what's been in america for hundreds of years and that is um our inner racist feelings And until the last 10 years, um, I think there's been a white male Fear factor that's been unspoken And donald trump for lack of a better term has released those demons And until we can assure americans, especially white male americans that no your role in society is not being pushed in the back of the room You're an equal player just like everybody else But um right now kind of like Vicki's comment about immigration and how the immigrants are going to take away your jobs Well, that's a false flag. That's not true Just like um the the stoking of white male fear. It's not true replacement theory. It's not true So until we get a leader that can coalesce all parties and we need it It's I think it comes down to a leader that can that can is charismatic Can you communicate effectively and is seen as a bipartisan leader for all of america? I don't think we get to that point in which you've suggested jay. I think we continue to struggle long I think it comes up to a leader that it is not a polarizing uh leader Who who who tries to separate and divide americans? It's a leader that tries to bring them all together Yet at the same time has the support and following of both independence republicans and democrats Yeah, amen to that. Okay. We're time. We're time for final comments Vicki, can you go first? One thing we haven't covered is the dynamics in congress right now, you know with the result of the midterms And you might discuss that I leave it to you, but can you give us your final thoughts today? Yeah, I I'm encouraged by the midterm elections I think what it said was that no no one party can can take that role of dominating the country We need to work together And I think it also showed that for the republican base Donald trump may not necessarily be the one in 2024. So I think all around It's encouraging. I hope that we can move forward and media and Should give equal time to other candidates so that the public can get to know others and not just keep hearing the name because sometimes that in itself Encourages people just to vote for them because of familiarity, even if it's a bad one So I'm encouraged and thank you all for having me today Stephanie what are your final comments you'd like to leave with our audience? I would like to leave my comment about my concern that uh, hawaii turn out in our election Was uh 41 percent I was utterly astounded that that and I think that as all the things vicki has said and and and tim too We have got to be actively involved in our democracy and whatever we can do To encourage That higher rate and it was higher across the nation I don't actually have the figures, but it wasn't higher than the last election But it was high. So, uh, we hawaii's behind the Behind on this and I I think we need to address that and and remind our leaders to get let's get excited about it and get out There and and do our special thing which is to vote Yeah, the mainland could learn a lot from us on honestly accepting turnout So the republicans are getting active in like to have more than one opinion of course we want that but we still want to make sure we're managing our Our portion of the conversation and and the activity definitely So let's go hawaii get out and vote crying out loud. Okay So tim, uh, you know your turn, but maybe you could among other things address the notion Uh that one of these days And it's wishful thinking that trump is off the radar and off the headlines And uh, what what are we going to do here on think tank? What are we going to do for news and comment? Will we talk about flowers rainbows and unicorns? Let's go with the unicorn More happy things j. I'm burned out man. It's been five years It's aloha time. Yeah, let's talk about why we live here How about a movie tonight? I um, I may share I may hold the minority opinion here from all the experts, but um, you remember the title of my show yesterday was Trump is no longer kingmaker and if I were to put a subtitle to that title it would be Trump is toast not all the orange marmalade is going to help him so, um Look, I'd like to think that as the indictments come down the path As money rolls away from him as media attention rolls away from him Donald trump will continue to spark off like a disgruntled nine-year-old bully on the playground But he diminishes over time he starts to fade and god that would be the most wonderful thing And if it takes a mike pence to do that because he's a calming Sort of personality fine. Let's let's bring on mike pence Or a democrat if you don't mind if you don't mind. Yeah So, um, I suppose, you know, you go home today and some 12 year old kid Says to you, uh, tim What did you guys talk about on american issues take two today and your answer as well among other things we We talked about orange marmalade. That's right and stay tuned little kiddies because in five years you're gonna be voting Yes, we're gonna get them out next time and vicky. That's another issue with the the whole turnout who won I'm just so shocked at that this time Yeah, so we all right tim tim up and shallow Vicky Caetano, Stephanie Stolton. Thank you so much for joining us today. Great discussion Thank you so much for watching think tech hawaii If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on youtube and the follow button on vimeo You can also follow us on facebook instagram and linked in and donate to us at think tech hawaii dot com Mahalo