 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart Van Der Zee and today I am joined by Mr. Rami Anton of A&F Drums. Rami, welcome to the show. Thanks, man. Thanks so much for having me, dude. I've been looking forward to this one for a long time. It's been recommended a bunch. You make some of the most innovative and beautiful drums that are truly on another level. I mean, you are in a league of your own as far as, like your website says, luxury drums. So congrats on that, man. I mean, really, they are amazing. Thanks, man. It's a team of people. I always have to emphasize that because it takes an army over here, man. For sure. It takes an army. Yeah. But thank you. That's very, very, very considerate. Absolutely. And I just remember, like, and I'm going to learn, we're going to learn all the dates here, but it just seemed like you, I know it's, you've been a lifelong drummer and we'll hear about that. Like, you really came out running and, and just it seemed like, you know, over, you know, pretty quickly, period of time, A&F was just like, boom, you guys are dominating and, and are a, you know, a massive player in the game. But you're not like a hundred and whatever year old company like Ludwig. You're, you're relatively new. We're five. Oh, my God. Five years old. Wow. You have. And we did come out running, but I would say we came out chasing because it's felt like chasing since we started. Yeah. Yeah. And I say that with the utmost gratitude because we're chasing because people reacted so quickly and really have been so supportive, man. Yeah, it's unique. It's not, there's, there's a, you've, you know, you've got a niche in the market and you're going for it. But so let's just like jump in here. And I mean, really, you as a person, I'm so interested about your background because I feel like you are really the brand. I know you said it's a team of people, but obviously you're the, you're the man behind A&F. So tell us about your background, how it all started and how you actually got into making luxury drums. Yeah, I'll do the Twitter version, man. Born in Egypt, family migrated to the States. I grew up listening to Eastern music first. So odd rhythms, odd accents. And when I finally kind of got exposed to Western music, 4-4 was an odd thing for me because there wasn't so much variation, at least initially rhythmically. So that's kind of like, you know, my ears gravitated towards this odd space and then 4-4 was odd to me. And very strict parents to a certain degree as far as careers, as long as I did well in school, I could have hobbies as I pleased. And one of my hobbies was playing drums. I loved it. And I started tapping on things when I was three. My father, he plays piano, recognized that I could keep time. And so he would gradually buy me, you know, upgraded a snare drum, a drum kit, you know. And so he supported it that way. But again, as long as it was a hobby, we're good. Don't think about doing this outside of the house type of thing. And then of course, my dad, you know, would book these fun parties with his buddies and be like, well, I mean, come, you're going to play drums with us. So all of a sudden I was playing out just with the family, you know, for fun. The rules are expanding a little bit. It's like, you can play with the family. Totally, man. Yeah. Like my first band for 12 years was playing with my dad. Wow. And I knew nothing else. And it was Eastern music. It was a lot of European music. Very rarely was there any Western music in those sets. Then I get to college, my second year in college. This couple of buddies of mine are writing these songs and they're playing this coffee house. And like, man, it would be so cool to have, you know, drums or percussion. And I was like, well, I could like grab a conga and play. And they're like, you play? I mean, I can bang on stuff. You know, I can keep time. Because again, I had no gauge outside of my dad. Had no gauge if I sucked. If I was any good, if I was, you know, I just had no gauge. And I played this coffee house gig with them. And that turned into my first band. And lo and behold, I could play kit to Western music. And people thought it was great. I don't know, man, it just kind of took from there. Flash forward, graduating college. I got a full-time job as a probation officer. And I'm going to law school. Wow. Nothing to do with music at all. And I get to almost at the end of my first semester of law school. And I totally have like a panic attack. As I'm driving to school, you know, to pick some stuff up and then drive to work. And I just, I remember thinking, there's no way that God gave me these ears to hear music and play music and it not have an avenue. And not have a place in my life. And if I'm going to see about this thing called music in my life, I have to do it now. I can't do it later when I've got family. Because at least I didn't think that way. You know, 21 years old just freaking out in the car. So I drive to school. I drop out of law school. Drive straight to work. I quit my job. Had a great supervisor there who actually encouraged me at that point. Jumped in a van with eight guys and played reggae and ska music, basically. Up and down the California coast, you know, making zero money. That's awesome. But having the time of my life, too. Yeah, for sure. And you know, when you start playing out, again, a lot of musicians learn this early. But this is, this is, I'm 21 at this point. Haven't played out much at all. So for eight months straight, I'm playing out, playing gigs with other bands, opening, you know, lighting, whatever. And I start to realize, oh, okay, cool. I can actually play drums. This is not, you know, I should really, because of course, like you start to understand and people are like, man, you should be doing, where did you cut like this whole thing? Where'd you come from? I was like, man, I just didn't know. I just didn't know. I had no idea. Yeah. You know? And then in that season, ironically, just discovering music, really, really discovering music more and listening more now that it's my career. I almost felt like I just, it was my responsibility to now study this thing that I was doing. And I loved it, man. I just, I listened to so much music and really fell in love with, you know, how do I be the guy that's playing on the music that's recorded? Like, what's that guy called? Yeah. And at the time I took a, or I was playing in a band that got a production deal and it was time to go in the studio and the producer's like, we're only bringing the singers in. We don't, we use studio musicians. I was like, cool. I didn't know anything. So I was like, yeah, that's how it works. That's fine. And then the guys in the band are like, no, man, you should really get Romney in. Like, he can do this. And they really fought for me, ironically. And so the producer's like one song. He comes in one song, he plays the house kit. You know, it's miked. That's what he gets. And if he can really do it, let him play the record. Wow. Right? So I go in and that was actually Flo and Eddie. So Mark, Mark Volman was the producer and that's who I was going in the studio. Oh. You know, to record for. And not only did I do the song, I did the whole record. And then he hired me to play with the turtles for a gig because their drummer was out of town. Oh, man. And so it started to click like, oh, cool, man. Like, this is, this is my career. Like, I love this. And I think I'm actually good at it. So as long as people will have me, I will play drums. And I did, man. I played drums on anyone and everyone's recording that ass, whether there was zero money or it's massive budget and did it for about seven years straight in LA, just always recording commercials, film records, didn't matter. Just get in the studio. Do the best you can do with whatever gear you got. And at that time I'd collect, started collecting a vintage gear because the sound and the vibe and all the things about these old drums was fascinating to me. And so vintage drums in the studio recording with as many people as possible. And then, you know, I get a call and it's this massive tour with a huge artist. It wasn't even an auditioning. The guy saw me play two days earlier at a local gig and said, you want this gig? Wow. I said, I do want this gig, but I'm leaving a lot of studio work and a lot of like first call producer things to do this. And I've never made this decision before. I don't know about this. I don't know how this works, but I love this artist. I love his music. And I grew up listening to it. So that was sealed by that. I was about to say, can you say who it is? I mean, man, that's awesome too. Yeah. Yeah, it was sealed. And so I did, man. I went on the road for, I went on the road for about, I think about four or five years. Wow. I had no idea. That's awesome. Yeah. Recording, writing. I mean, it was, do you talk about a dream gig? Now, mind you, you know, I hadn't been on a tour like that before. So you go on that tour and you're like, oh man, touring is amazing. Right? Yeah. But that's not how everybody tours. And I learned that after the fact, right? Yeah. What years were the, you know, the session times and then into your time with Seal? Yeah. The session times were 96 to 2002. Okay. And then Seal came right at the, right at the end of 2003. And I was with them through 2000, I want to say 2007. Man, that is awesome. And I left because, yeah, it was amazing, man. It was amazing. I left because I signed a record deal with one of my writing buddies, Universal, and we had to go promote. If you sign a deal as an artist, you are obligated to label. So I couldn't be committed to Seal and that. And so that's, that was my musical journey. I did the, you know, when we, when I left Seal to do the Universal thing that led to a lot of writing songs for movies and TV and film and commercials and stuff and did a lot of that. And that was also in the season where we moved to Austin from LA, got married, moved to Austin, had a studio here, always had a studio here, writing, recording, making, you know, making music basically always producing as well. Wow. And then, so that's my, I mean, that's my musical journey. I've always played, written, produced on it. Wow. You know, and it's interesting because I guess other instruments have this, but you're a prime example of like, I feel like, like a lot of drummers, and it really worked out for you, but like, you know, you need to be that multifaceted, you know, you can engineer yourself, you can, you have a studio, you can produce yourself. And you were kind of ahead of the curve with like the everyone having a home studio because, you know, you need to get it all done. So, I mean, you know, it really worked out for you. It's something special about drummers, you know, being able to step out and do more than just the drums. Yeah, I think the minute you start thinking, man, I want to have a family, but I don't want to give up music. That is such a big statement. And to try and actually make that shift, you've got to, you've got to like figure out, all right, what about all the possible revenue streams that I actually can get excited about? What, how can I work harder at all these revenue streams to make sure that I can keep making music or be around music and support a family, you know, and eventually put kids to college, like all those things that you want to do and... Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think some of that came from my upbringing, like just driving home, you've got to be responsible, you've got to be an attorney or a doctor, like you've got to do these things and support a family. It was traditional upbringing, but the work ethic that that burst in me, I think always stayed with me. And so I always felt, no matter what I did, I had to do the best I can, I had to make sure I, you know, like I, I was able to drive as many directions as possible to create those revenue streams and keep doing what I was doing. So that's kind of a... Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like, like, you know, it's good to have parents and still, I don't want to say like a fear, but like a sense of like, it might not all be okay just out of, you know, if you don't try hard, like there's a chance it might, you know, you need to work hard. Yeah. And that's why they encourage you to do that. But wow, that's awesome. So that's a good journey. I can't believe you were, so you said you were a parole officer? I was, I was interning at the probation office, the probation department, where I was going to college. And then when I was my senior year, I got offered a full-time position as a probation officer. Probation officer, got it. Yeah, which I took because I thought, okay, I knew that going to law school, unless I was number one or number two in my graduating class, I was going to get zero court, like zero time in the courtroom. And that's what I loved about law, is actually getting in and arguing cases. And so litigation wasn't, wasn't possible for a grad, you know, law school grad. But if you worked, if you worked with the DA's office, when you graduated, you could go in and become an assisted DA immediately. So you get immediate courtroom experience. I get it, it's criminal law, but still it's courtroom experience. And so if I was working as a probation officer and going to law school, I had to shoe in at the DA's office as soon as I graduated. Yeah. That was the plan. I got interrupted. Yeah, it's all who you know. My wife is an attorney, and I think there's a little bit of it where she loves her job. But I think sometimes it's like you even said where it's like, it's a safe thing to go to law school. Like it was like, well, I'm going to go to law school because that's what you do. I can then keep going to school, which is safe, which she does love the law. I shouldn't, you know what I mean, but like, and then you're in law school, but there's sometimes there's a bubble where everyone did that and you get out and there's not as many jobs. But she was a juvenile public defender for about five or six years and some serious stuff like in the courtroom defending kids who have done some pretty bad things and you have to get them the best, you know, situation that they can possibly get. But it's a little more serious than what I do. Well, yeah, man. I saw it all. I saw all the cases and there were certain divisions that I just within a week I was like, I'm not handling those cases. Get me out of that. And we don't have to get into that. But yeah, that's a tough job. Scary stuff. No, it is. But all right. So you're in Austin. You're off the road. You are married at that point. Not that that really matters, but it does. Obviously you're married at that point. You've got, you know, you're building your, you've got a home studio. So you're working on a lot of film and television stuff you said and just recording, writing music. Take it away from there. What happened after that? My wife and I were going to a church here in Austin, a pretty big church. And one of the pastors and I, we lived on a golf course at the time. I love golf. And so I'd go golfing with one of the pastors there and one thing led to another and somehow I took a role overseeing all the arts at this mega church. Lots of beautiful things in that season. It's not all, it's not all great, but some of the most beautiful things that came from that season was the ability to share with other young artists my journey and hope that from the things that I've done and decisions that I made that were good and decisions that made that were horrible they could glean some wisdom and take that and go. My wife and I opened our home daily to people that were struggling artists. You know, it was all focused on artists, but artists going through addictions and breakups and financial hardship like the list is long, right? And we just found ourselves really comfortable and peaceful just being there for people especially in the artist community. So that part I love. We did it for five years together. That's awesome. And then towards the end of that I felt a pull. I was actually getting some calls to do some more touring and I really wanted to work with this one artist specifically that called and we had done a record together and then a few months later he said, man, put together a band with me and let's go tour this thing. So that was Ed Koalczyk from the band Live. Yeah. So we went out. Yeah, we toured together and played and just had a ball for about I'd say for about three years or so. And also during that time there was a Japanese artist that I was and this ties into A&F. There was a Japanese artist that I was working that I had recorded his records, played drums on his records in LA for many years. And he called or his management team called and said, hey, this artist, the artist wants you to come to Japan for two and a half months and do his 50th reunion tour. But he wants you because you played on the records he wants you to do it. And at first I said, man, I can't leave my family for two and a half months. He's like, no, no, no. Your family, everybody. We got you a flat. We'll take care of everything because I had my wife and my two kids, a nine month old and a two year old. Oh, man, I can totally understand that is insanity. Yeah, like the diapers and the formula that luggage alone was three times everything else we took. Cause we didn't know what was out there. We had no idea. Yeah. Yeah, man. So I spent, I spent that time in Japan. And so before I left for that, I kind of made this like decision of my wife, hey honey, I've been playing drums for a long time. I will. And I've always bought vintage gear. Right. So I want to buy like two amazing snare drums. I want to spend what we would never think of spending, but just to commemorate, you know, kind of like all this playing I've done in my career. Yeah. And she was like, yeah, absolutely. Do it. So I spent a lot of money on two snare drums. I don't want to say what they are. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And it took them with me on this, like excitedly taking them with me on this nine, you know, nine or 10 week tour in Japan with this artist. And these are, you know, these are 40,000 seater arenas that we're playing. Indeed, within, within, I don't know, the first three songs of the first show, I'd gone through both snares and they weren't, they weren't doing what I wanted them to do. Interesting. They were doing what they were built to do. They weren't doing what I wanted them to do. So it was a very personal thing that I wanted. And I realized, okay, I'm going to have to figure out did I buy the wrong drums or like what? Anyway, so I come back from that and kind of with a little bit of a vengeance, like I got to, I have to figure this out for myself. It's nobody else's responsibility. I want a certain sound. I should be able to figure it out and kind of went on that journey. And that journey was, you know, it was about a, I would say maybe two years of kind of discovery, if you would. And then six months of, you know, I know exactly what I want now. I know how it has to be made. I know exactly what it needs to sound like. I got to find someone to help me make it because I don't make drums. Well, I was going to say, so are you in the garage, you know, with like a lot of your drums are metal, obviously. So you're like hammering metal or are you more just like trying different drums that you like? I like this size. I like this metal. I like this, you know, kind of hoop. So you're just experimenting. Yeah. I'm taking everything that I loved about vintage drums and dissecting it at this point. In the studio, every single snare drum that I own, like the vintage stuff, listening, looking at the way they're made, trying to figure out, man, why is this drum that I bought for $40 that, you know, looks like somebody's garbage made in 1890. Why does this sound so good? What is it about this drum? You know, and this drum, I know Ludwig is a popular company and they've done so many great vintage drums. Why this snare? Why is this snare so special and so soft after? Why do I like this so much? Why do I like this sound so much? You know, just those kind of things. And then finally kind of going, all right, I think I know exactly what I want. Who could I find to help me build it and not and be okay not offering creative input? Because at this point I'm like, man, I just need the brain dump exactly what's up here into a drum. And if someone could do that for me, I mean, I'll pay whatever, but if someone could do that for me and be okay not offering creativity just yet, like creative opinion, it sounds weird. That's interesting. It was a very selfish project, you know? No, but sometimes with any creative endeavor, it's like, sometimes you don't want people's input. Like, on anything really, where like, even if you're like, I don't know, it's like someone will come in, if you're mixing something with music, say like halfway through, like, oh, that snare is too loud. And it's like, I know, I'm not mixing the drums yet. And it's like, just get out. Yeah, there was, I think there was a pocket, or not a podcast, it was a TED talk. I'm trying to remember who it was. It won't come to me right now, but the gist of it was, you know, the minute you start editing, creativity stops. Yeah. I thought that was an interesting, like, if you want to have a creative session, with not editing in that session. Yeah. Just get it all out. Get it realized the way that you see it, and then start to edit and go, okay, these are the things that work, these are the things that don't work. But if you don't get it out, that's going to be extremely frustrating. Yeah. And so I did, man, I found a guy, a local guy, really sweet, honest dude, and he was making drums at a wine barrel, like, that was really cool. Hadn't worked with metal before, but just a really good guy, you know, and this was a hobby for him. He had a dig egg, you know, and a beautiful family and everything. And he lived a mile from my house, and so he was like, hey, man, I'll pay, pay for your time, I pay for all the material, if you're willing to, like, conquer this with me. And he did, man, we did it, and it was about six months of back and forth, and I was one of them crazy. I was on this, like, hell-bent mission to, you know, accomplish this thing. But at the end, you know, we, like, we hit the snare, and it was, I say it a lot, but it was definitely, like, a little tear came down, like, oh my God. A single tear. Exactly. So, let me say this, I did not design our drum initially to be this what looks like a relic, you know, it wasn't an intentional design for aesthetic. My mission was, I love Rob Brass, I love the sound of brass. I don't want to worry about sweating, bleeding, dropping the drum, like, I want to build a tank. Yeah. But I want to build a tank that's a workhorse that I don't have to think about. And so, that's a really concise direct, you know, statement. But man, to accomplish that, because you start to think about, well, what kind of lug is going to be the most simple design, but not restrict the resonance of the shell. Like, why don't you start to get, it's like the iPhone. So easy to use, man, but if you take that thing apart, the complexity is insane. Yes. So that's where it got really detail focused on how to do it. And so, Rob Brass continues to age. The sweat, the blood, all that stuff just adds to the character. So you don't have to clean it. Yeah, no, really. Man, you said it, like a relic is a great way to put it but there's something about it that just looks like I don't know. They're almost like cinematic. You know what I mean? They look like they could be in a cool, like old, like almost like a sci-fi movie or something that's in a not too distant future. And they've been in a few. Since we've created the company, Dumbo was the biggest one, but yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. I've seen that watching it with my son and I don't think I noticed that. That's awesome. This is the drum kit in all the circus scenes. That's awesome. Yeah, you'll see it. Yeah, I will. But that was the heart behind the design. It wasn't this like, we weren't trying to be intentional about, you know, an art deco era design. It was like, no, man, make it so that I think it happened to it that I worry about. Yeah, well, I mean art deco, boom, obviously that's you, that is it. This episode is brought to you by dream symbols. I want to talk a little bit about the dream symbols recycling program. The recycling program is simple. Bring your broken or unwanted symbols, all brands accepted into your local dream dealer and you can earn $1 for every inch of symbol you bring in towards the purchase of a new dream symbol. For example, bring in two 20 inch symbols for recycling and receive $40 off the price of a new dream symbol. It's that easy. They, in turn, take the symbols recycled like the re-effects crop circles and the naughty saucers. Check them out online at dream symbols.com and follow them on social media at dream symbols. Do you consider yourself like a design minded person where you pay attention to those little like minute details? Yeah, my wife prior to A&F would say, man, you're like a lifestyle curator. Like everything is details with you when it comes to food or aesthetic, you know, metrosexual, like she'd say that. My sister would too. But yeah, I've always loved design and aesthetics, but I never thought of myself in that role or in that way. Of course, until A&F and I realized, oh man, I love designing you know, colors but designing with purpose and with a historical merit. So every color that we release has some kind of story attached to history. You know, the hardware even there's in-depth historical research that went into where we got to with our hardware. So I definitely look somebody said this John Aldridge said this once and I've used it ever since. You know, we look back to move forward. And I feel like my design aesthetic is I look back to move forward all the time. Especially with drums. I mean, we look back to our you know, our forefathers and it just kind of like you know, things haven't changed that much, but we're really working with the blueprint that they've laid out for us. Absolutely. But all right, so you didn't just create this drum with that guy you worked with there. Do you want to say his name? Yeah, Steve Fertinetti and he was the original F in A&F. I was going to say, okay, cool. Yeah, so we started well, we didn't start anything. We just created this A&F thing and decided let's sell like 25 of these we won't even sell anything. We made one for me, made one for him. I posted some videos and pictures on Instagram producer, engineer friends, drummer friends were like, dude, how old is that thing? Where'd you get it? And I was like, no, I made it man. This is my take anywhere play as much as I want beat around drum is amazing. And I have to think about it. And then like, great, well, I'll take two and I'll take one. I can start it. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not what this is. Nice. This is my drum. You know. So then we're like, well, let's make 25 since we've got people that want to buy it that right now. And then that became 50 and then it became 75 and then a friend of mine called and said, hey, man, I'm doing this thing for South by Southwest and I want to use you playing drums in different areas of Austin on the street as bumpers between segments for this series that we're doing. And I was like, okay, I show up by snare and it's like other weird drum kit that's going to be a little bit odd. Let's make a drum kit. Well, that's like, that's very loaded because you're like, wait. Yeah. I'm sure Steve was like, what? Yeah. He's like, no, man, I made a snare with you. I'm not a nightmare. I'm not going. You know, no, man, he was really supportive. I think he fell in love with it too. You know, just like his work was being obviously recognized and celebrated and people were buying it and excited about it. So there's just a sense of pride that goes into that. But yeah, the minute it turned into like massive orders and renting, you know, leasing a shop and hiring people, you know, he was kind of stuck in that, man this doesn't pay me to do like enough to do full time and absolutely right. And I have a family and I really don't want to do this full time. I want to be of, you know, family I want to have my nice job and just thing. And so I'm out and you know, and it was totally understand and I was definitely going at this point. I want to do this. I want to keep doing this. I want to make as many things in my head as I can. If people want to buy, I'm great. If they don't, I'm cool with that. But I'm putting money into this and I'm going. And so that's when it clicked. And my wife was also sitting right behind me going dude, what is this money in our account and what are you selling? Like what's going on? Yeah, what are you doing? Well, you've got such a demand right off the bat where it's almost like one of those, you know, you like, it's natural. It just like was okay, this is a cool drum. Oh, you want one? Okay, I'll sell one. I know you know, hearing the big fat snare drum guys, it was like a similar story where it was like, oh, I made one. Oh, they wanted, they want two. Oh, you want 20. So it's it's just like a, you know, you're doing something right when it naturally picks up there. But correct me if I'm wrong, you are out your builder at that point. So what did you do then to find a builder and that's the thing, man. And I really I'm so grateful that I fell in love with vintage drums early and was able to study how they were made and and just because what what we figured out when we designed our lug concept is, you know, there, this was a unique thing and hadn't been done this specific way before we were able to patent, you know, our first first patent I've ever had, you know, on on our lugs and our aesthetic, the look of everything. And so we made it simple. Once we figured it all out, we simplified process. This is where my business thing comes in. It's like it's great, but if it's complicated, you can't duplicate it enough to make a business out of it. It's got to be simple. There's got to be a way to streamline without affecting quality, right. There's all these things you've got to balance out. And I started doing that early. And so when we hired our first guy, Steve was still there. He trained him, right. And then from there it just kind of went, went, went, went. So our processes are really simple. The hard part was getting the design right so that it could be simple in process. Does that make sense? Yeah, because you like so many things in life, if you're redoing, mainly in music or, you know, in production, whatever, if you're redoing from scratch every time, you're going to, you're setting yourself up for failure. It's almost like you template it out and you, you know, you make it easier on yourself. So that makes, makes perfect sense. So you were, I don't know if incorporated is the right word, but at that point, A&F was a business. You guys, you were a full-on, you know, you're a drum company at that point, right. So yeah, well, that was my wife. So my wife was like you have to form a company and pay taxes on all this stuff to your company because if you pay through personal, it's going way more and you are actually, this is a company. So you've got to treat this for what it really is. Don't try to force it into our personal income. That's weird. Yeah. And so we formed LSE and at that time also one of my good buddies who was with me through that season where I was working at the church and also, you know, a sponsor of AA and NA, you know, men, right, going through that. So like we did a lot of life together. He at the time was also entrepreneur and saw the opportunity and said, man, let me partner with you on this. Let me come in on this and I'll do these parts of the business and, you know, kind of break it up you, me, you and Steve. And so he came in and so May 1st we formed the company May 1st of 2016 was the official forming of ANF. By then we had already made snares. We had made drum kits and so we were just catching up. We were racing to catch up. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I mean, and like you said, making a drum set is a little bit different than just making a snare, but I mean, you're not just making regular drum sets though is the thing, which I mean, it's not like let's get some Keller shells and let's just put them together. I mean, they are from a design standpoint from the sizes that you've used are just I mean, you've got the like giant pancake snares. You've got the huge bass drums. You've got the kind of single you know, tension rod construction on a lot of drums. I mean, it's just unbelievable. I mean, what would be I don't know, maybe without giving away your secrets, but like what would be if you're going to come out with a new drum set, does it start with you like putting pen to paper and kind of just like writing down your ideas and drawing something out like what some of these really cool designs is that all coming from you? It starts with me and finishes with the team. That's how it works. And so a lot of the stuff up until now for the most part. These were things that I would make shift in the studio to get sounds for a record. So it's like, man, I really want as fat snare. Let me grab, make glad this old floor tom that I have and cut it down and put some wires on it. Nobody made 18 inch wires at the time. So let me get 16 inch wires and let's let me take let me have this, you know, in my arsenal and the pancake was like, let me take this banjo apart in the middle of a session actually took a banjo apart makeshift snare and go. And so I was drawing a lot from all these things in the studio that I think drummers at the time, I think drummers would want to actually buy something like this that's already done if they heard what it does and engineers and producers would love it too. So let's just make it. I mean, we can make it. Let's make it. So that's that's how those things happen. It's like drawing from my years in the studio and sounds and soundscapes and just creating vibes and turning it into drum. And then the other side is kind of my rebellious like, man, everybody's programming beats now and pop songs like there's some great drummers that can play that stuff. And I remember when I was doing session work, I mean my first big session was playing live beats for the first Black Eyed Peas record. So I was in there, had all my vintage drums and kick snare hat, different variations of kick snare hat playing down beats, you know, they'd sample eight bars of it on the MPC, but it was still a live drummer. And then you started to see that kind of go away where people are just sampling sounds and creating and it kind of broke my heart. I was like, man, there's drummers out there. Yeah, I can play this stuff way better than that program and faster. They just need sound. They need more arsenal sonic arsenals because that's what you have with program. You can start tweaking sounds and stuff. And so the pancake, the gunshot, the rude boys, like all these things were sounds that the drummers can now take back, you know, the groove. Like take back, man, fight the computer. Yeah, no, for real. I mean, it's kind of like I mean, I've heard other people say but it parallels, you know, when like, you know the computers coming in and taking jobs away from drummers obviously kind of parallels like the silent movie thing when those drummers were losing their jobs and stuff. But yeah, man, I mean, you have on that note too of, yes, you've created a bunch of really cool, unique equipment that is just like, you know, one of a kind. But because of that, you've created like die hard fans. I mean, there are the A&Fers, people who just really, really, really, and I've played a few kits. I played one at the last PASIC that happened in person and they're not just like you've been saying this entire time. They're not just pretty drums. They also sound awesome. They serve a function. They like, you know, they don't just talk the talk. They walk the walk. I mean, they're worth the money. I feel like people just and it seems like they're like a it's like a showpiece in your you put it in like your living room or something. Functional art is what my wife calls it. Yeah. For sure. I mean, so all right, on the timeline here though, it I mean, it seems like you're five years old, so it's not even been that long really, but you really hit the ground running like it seems like you just out of the gate. Boom, you've been just killing it has have things from what from what I can see as an outsider things have just progressively been going up and up and up. Is that fair to say? Yeah, man, you know, 2020 leaving Nam January 2020 was position to be one of the biggest growth years for us ever enter covid and this is such a secondary thing because the primary thing was people's lives and health and jobs like the mess that covid brought we were somewhat insulated large largely because we are a very conservative financial model of a company I chose to do that very early and you know, we have very little if no debt and everything we do is we can pay for it. We do it if we can't we wait type of thing. And so that sustain this so March April May of last year you know really tough because covid just had started to do its thing and then around June started to swing back up and then July exploded and we're back on growth track into this year. Nice. And I think next year is going to be explosive with all the tours and the shows and everything coming back in full swing you know so probably this year too but you know you're really going to feel it I think next year so yeah just on the growth path trying to be as responsible as we can covid definitely you know again very secondary this is like third world first world problem but it's your life I mean it's your livelihood so it's like yeah it's important. It kicked us in the balls man. Yeah. Mainly for getting supplies like getting raw brass getting wood for our shells like getting materials and then shipping you know the shipping companies have just been they're having a restructure everything because it was painful so delays man I hated up until covid rarely would we be late on making a drum from our lead time you know and it used to be 8 weeks on snares 12 weeks on kits and after covid you know we've fallen almost 2 months behind sometimes so we you know we were and I will say like it wasn't that we weren't doing the work here and able to keep up it was like it was just getting materials like for example Remo had closed during covid for at least 2 months. Yeah I heard that. So we couldn't get heads like drums are all sitting in the shop ready to get heads on them and we couldn't get heads I started calling all of our retail partners who you know their shops were only online at the time and just buying as many heads as we could but also they needed you know because for their customers and these wouldn't be logo heads right and so I had to ship had the ship drums out with whatever heads we could get with a note saying as soon as we get logo heads I'll send you replacements don't worry like we're going to make this alright but man it was a cluster mess yeah so everyone's in that position though and in covid there's so many things where like it affected so many things where like like I had to buy longer screws to hang like a shutter on my house that blew off and it's like oh you can't get them nope can't get a 5 inch screw or whatever it's just like things like or there's something like at a grocery store it was like yeah we're out of cream cheese we couldn't get it. Yeah because we've got A's, Lowe's and Home Depot all you know within 3 miles and same thing you go in there to get just any materials that we just haven't been able to get try to get it from there and some of the shelves are cleaned out and they're like oh yeah man we're a 2-3 month back order we have no idea when stuff's coming in because you know and here's the thing you start to learn that I mean man like 80-90% of some of the stuff is coming from overseas and specifically China right and China is shut down and they're really tightening up on all the shipping out because they're trying to be safe for the right reasons you know yeah so that's what was happening it's like you just couldn't get stuff yeah well but I mean it seems like that's kind of well I want to say that seems like it's kind of coming to an end but honestly I mean you see these like home builders and things like if you want something done in your house I mean prices have tripled and lumber I mean it's it's insane now how are you guys let's kind of transition into what A&F is going to be doing in the future I know you said 2021 is looking like a great you know year so far all you know albeit with the price of things expanding you know of like materials and things being hard to get but what can the A&Fers out there look forward to yeah man I do want to say to the the statement that you said things are getting seem to be getting better it's gonna get worse before it gets better unfortunately yeah because the other thing that Texas got hit with was a snowstorm and a grid you know that that basically broke down so that was an additional added time but anyway what we did is we hired two more people as of last week and now we're on this like mad dash to catch up but again we're just running in issues getting materials so what we did was we are buying materials in massive bulk we're basically putting a lot of money in right now so we're buying a year's worth of materials whether it be metal or wood and it's going to take longer to get those materials but once we get out of them we'll be able to catch up at like rocket speed pace because two more people in the shop means three times as much work done at the same quality right that's where we're at there we're continuing right now what I'm focusing on as far as design is concerned I want to finish out our hardware series our drum sound is done and that's hopefully we'll be landing in the next couple of weeks like the first batch of those they're already sold but that's great and then I'm finishing our kick pedal I'm finishing our drum thrown I'm finishing our hardware bag and a full a full line of drum bags and then you know ANF hardware is going to be making other areas of music including guitar stands and microphone stands things like that that we've been designing same aesthetic same approach sitting with the mic stand we have the luxury of having Rupert Neve designs here in Austin wow that's nice so we've been working with them just gathering information in their wisdom and their knowledge to try and make a full studio mic stands bags for microphones making those making bags for guitars and a few other instruments so we're just using what we've done and the method that we've done it and applying it in other areas where we see a need I should say yeah and I mean you're a drum company for sure you've almost created a lifestyle brand where it's a very certain aesthetic where like you said where you're very detailed a lot of attention to detail and there's a lot of people like that who want their gear to be kind of a work of art so it makes perfect sense that you're expanding into those other markets just as many microphone you know nerds out there and guitar guys and girls and people who love all this stuff who want to put their gear in a nice case or spend that little extra to have a guitar stand that is really kind of a work of art so it makes perfect sense you're not overstepping you're not stepping too far out yeah and trying to stand behind it too so let's have a lifetime warranty on manufacturing if it breaks or tweaks or whatever and it's because of something that we made not because you dropped the kit off of a two-story building we can still fix that by the way and we have we fixed a completely demolished brass kit in an accident that nobody got hurt thank god but the drums were squashed but you know on the manufacturing side we'll replace it fix it and replace it right away and get it out to you as quickly as possible on the hardware it's a little bit different the hardware's got a two-year warranty which is consistent with most of the hardware that's made out there today the bags are a five-year warranty consistent with a lot of the bags that are out there today the high-end bags like B&B, Briggs and Raleigh that come stuff yeah sure but yeah man it's taking what we've done and applying it in other areas where we see there's a need an opportunity for us to actually fill that need with pride like with integrity I should say and like most pro drum sets and pro gear they're you know you get what you pay for so these are not you're not selling beginner drum sets so I think people have a lot more pride in something that they've had to maybe save up a little bit for or you know you feel it more like it's an investment into your career and your studies as a drummer when you buy these because again they're not the cheapest drums in the world and I think you get what you pay for and if you want quality you gotta pay for it that's for sure the tough part for any company right now but you're gonna start seeing it across the board not just instruments anybody who's making anything um prices are gonna go up because commodities are going up the price of wood the price of metal all that stuff is rising and so we're we're trying to hold back as much as we can to see what you know what we can do to cushion that blow but um you know we haven't raised our prices since 2017 and we only raised them in 2017 because in 2016 we were making stuff out of our garage or a small shop and it was a small quantity in a minute and things took off were like whoa we're not making any money on this overhead goes up and yeah you just start to think it through you're like well I don't want I hate raising prices but if it if you absolutely have to I hate more the idea of closing our company right so yeah I think we all want you to be around and not go out of business you didn't raise less of two evils right but yeah so we're trying to assess that now and figure out what it's gonna look like we we honestly won't know until we start looking at the new prices of commodities once they're landed here and you know whether they're coming from Colorado or San Antonio or many have like wherever we just we got to look at the pricing and make an assessment but you're gonna start seeing it across the board man I'm a cigar guy I love cigars and this year I saw cigars take a hike about 30% so we're not we're not I don't see that kind of hike anywhere in our future yeah but we do have to figure out what what it's gonna look like unfortunately yeah but you know you just gotta chug through it and it is what it is I think everyone's in the same boat so well as we finish up I think we can tell people where they can you know find you and order drums and all that stuff but before we do that I want to give a couple shout outs here so I had I've had multiple people suggest this episode but originally Rob Andre who works with you obviously who's a team member he suggested you like last year and was like man it would be a great episode and so thanks to Rob and then more recently Brian M Johnson reached out via Instagram and sent me a picture of his awesome set in his like cool looking I think like apartment and and it's just a beautiful you know it's just like I said it's he's got a cool plant next to it and it's just a nice it's like a piece of furniture yeah so so thanks to those guys and then I want to give a shout out to Corey strange who did some great work with you guys designing the box for your hardware Corey's amazing man I I wanted our packaging to have a personal touch and I asked Corey if he wouldn't mind hand drawing every you know piece of hardware that we're releasing to scale so we could put it on the box that way yeah he took every stand made a hand drawing and we created it we created digital versions of it and it's on all of our packaging and he's he's just incredible man I love that guy yeah he's awesome his his art is phenomenal and and just that idea alone of doing like a true to life illustration of the hardware and I think it's so cool and it kind of goes back to early early early early you know forties drum catalogs where they wouldn't have pictures they'd actually have illustrations and I think it's awesome about looking back to move forward I loved that those old catalogs we do have something that is in the works around that and I'll talk about that in a feature date once it's getting closer to but yeah we looked at catalogs and that was a huge inspiration and you know the other thing was the practical aspect of when you have hardware and boxes sitting in shops most of the time you know your retail guys got to take it out for someone to at least see it and mind you you know we encourage all the dealers to have it on the floor and so that people can try it but there's also the fact that just walking through you can look at the box and know exactly what's in the box just with the drawing so there's a practical component to that as well but yeah really awesome and again I didn't get to say this but Rob came on as our sales director and he said he was one of the three people that recommended that we do this together and he's been an incredible incredible value add to our company man he brings so much so I can't say enough good things about all those guys yeah for sure and then I wanted to also I think we've talked but I always see on Facebook Brandon Bogle I just wanted to mention because he runs the I think the A&F appreciation the A&F page on Facebook and I just think it's so cool when someone is so passionate about it I just wanted to kind of give him a mention of like you know it's cool Brandon it's cool that you're doing that and love the company so much to represent it and just you know spread the gospel of A&F that guy's a rockstar man such a rockstar yeah for sure so all right on that note you know it's pretty obvious usually people can just find your website but why don't you tell people where they can you know go and order A&F you know where they can find them where they can try them all that good stuff yeah yeah so our web page is AM is in the NCF is in frank drum code dot com on our web page if you're looking for dealers you can go you can go in the and pick the I think it's retailers page and it has all the dealers globally that have A&F drums in the shops if there's not a dealer in your city that that sells A&F you know we sell direct as well only to places where we don't have representation because you know we're still small we're not everywhere but we're trying and then the other thing I want to encourage everybody to do is subscribe to our YouTube channel because we we just launched something called A&F live and it's a basically it's a live cast where we showcase some gear we have some interviews but you can you know you can ask questions in real time and we'll answer them live there's there like 45 minute episodes and then you know they'll they'll live on our YouTube channel after the fact as well but that's we're trying to create a resource where we can continue to answer and educate and do everything we can to inform people of you know the who why where what of A&F yeah man that's awesome it's good to be community based and reaching out to people and you know and obviously drummers like being listened to and talking to their companies and just doing what you're doing right now of talking to me about this and people can listen is an important thing because I didn't know any of this stuff so it's cool to know the man behind A&F has such a cool background in you know drumming and touring and production and really it's born A&F is born out of your own necessity that really like hey everyone else can take advantage of your you know desire to make a great drum for yourself and now five years later it's just such a happy birthday I mean this will be out in May 2021 I'll release this you know this month and you made it you're the big you're halfway to a decade thanks man yeah big celebration super super grateful for the support really can't can't say enough praise for just everybody's support in this in this journey it's been incredible absolutely cool well Rami show and for everyone listening Rami's gonna hang out for a couple more minutes and we're gonna do one of the Patreon bonus episodes that we've been doing recently and I want to hear Rami about these just like the far out kind of like symbols that you that are in the crazy shapes and stuff and and just sourcing them and who's making them and all that stuff so if you want to hear that conversation you can go to drumhistorypodcast.com click the Patreon button and I'm sure we'll talk about some other stuff as we do it kind of spirals off into other things but yeah you can donate a little bit of money and you'll you know be involved in that so anyway Rami thank you so much for coming on the show and spending time with us and again it's a and is in Nancy fdrumco.com for everyone out there who can check out ANF but I think everyone knows a lot about ANF because you're there man you're a very popular drum company thanks man thank you thank you for doing this too with us this is awesome if you like this podcast find me on social media at drumhistory and please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future until next time keep on learning