 Y First Agenda item today is a decision on taking business in private. It is a committee. I agree to take item 3 in private. Agenda item 2 is the committee is currently conducting an inquiry into the Scottish Government's international work. The aim of this inquiry is to look at how the Scottish Government engages internationally and what it wants to achieve from this work. This includes both its EU and wider international engagement, its support for international development and how its external affairs policies interact with UK Government policies in these areas. The committee's first panel on this topic is delighted to welcome to committee this morning Dr Kirsty Hughes, Fellowship of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, Dr Adam Marks, International Policy Executive of the Law Society of Scotland and Professor Murray Pettock, co-chair of the Scots, Art and Humanities Alliance, the University of Glasgow. I thank you also for your submissions before this morning's meeting. We will move directly to questions and if I could open with a question for everyone, which is around the challenges and risks that the Scottish Parliament faces with the post-Brexit situation and TCA governance structures and political and policy dialogue that might result in fewer opportunities for input for devolved institutions than before Brexit. If I could have your reflections on that and I'll go first to Dr Hughes, please. Thank you, good morning everybody and thank you for asking me to give evidence this morning. I think Brexit is obviously a very big change to how the UK's relations with the EU are scrutinised both here and in the Scottish Parliament and elsewhere. I think that it's certainly true, chair, that it does make it more difficult. It also, to state the obvious but it's an important obvious, means that you have to create potentially new processes and new structures and it also means that it's important that the Scottish Parliament finds a way to have a role in such new structures as are already there or being fleshed out. Obviously, we know that the trade and co-operation agreement has a partnership council that it has a whole range of specialised committees. There's a joint parliamentary assembly. We would expect, I'm not sure of the names of the two or three Scottish MPs who are going to be on the joint parliamentary assembly and known yet but there will be some Scottish ways to input into these things but it's also important that there are Scottish officials where relevant and obviously in devolved areas on those specialised committees and then that the Scottish Parliament itself gets feedback on those meetings and on the Scottish Government strategy to engage with the new relationship with the EU and how the UK Government is doing that and how it's relating to the Scottish Government and where the Scottish Parliament fits in that. I think some of this is still processes that are in the making. We saw that Lord Frost did say some time back that yes certainly Scottish officials and other devolved administration officials should be involved where relevant in specialised committees and in devolved areas but we have to make sure that that actually happens and that it happens on a consistent and fair and equal basis. I think there are also more informal mechanisms that the European Parliament has a Friends of Scotland group and the Secretary for that is provided by the Scottish Government's Brussels office in fact. So I think it's important that the Scottish Parliament should look at both formal and informal ways of being part of that process. There is more than that one could say but I think I'll let my other analysts contribute. Thank you. Dr Marx? Yes, I agree with almost all that. I think it's important to emphasise that the UK Government and the Scottish Government should maintain as much transparency as possible throughout this process and as Dr Hughes has outlined a lot of this is still in flux at the moment. We do now know some of the structures of the UK EU TTA and they are starting to be actually set up and created in a more concrete way well than just on paper. To the extent that they then operate we will have to see how successful they are in the long term and potentially any problems or not that emerge from it. It's worth just going back slightly and thinking about the wide ranges of policy area that will overlap with the devolved settlements and the Cabinet Office by last count to 156 points of areas that we are going to overlap with the devolved areas and how the devolved Governments and devolved legislators interact with the various partnership councils, the domestic advisory groups and the civil society forums all of which Dr Hughes mentioned are what is going to be significant as we go forwards and certainly I think that this committee has a role in scrutinising what those bodies are doing in areas where they impact the devolved settlements. I think that in broader terms we'd look a little bit back to say that some of the structures internally within the UK we now are under significant challenges that the JMC for instance and we're still waiting to see what happens with Lord Dunlop's proposals for a replacement of that with an intergovernmental council and again I think it would be important for MSPs to have a role in how this is structured and certainly in terms of oversight of that body through this committee. In terms of the Scottish Parliament's role more broadly I think I'd draw your attention to the recommendations for the legacy report of the Finance and Constitution Committee which outlined the various areas thematically that the Parliament should be looking at and I think that that was a good start looking at the areas that were previously of EU competence the extent to which there is the ability to scrutinise the future relationship with the EU the keeping pace powers that this Parliament and the Government has, the common frameworks and marked access principles and some of this will of course come back to information and the awareness of policies that's happening and again I think I'd then refer back to some of the comments made about the various institutions the Scottish Government has in Brussels and how much information is going to be fed back fire those institutions to Government and to yourselves so that you can then make decisions about what is happening in terms of EU policy currently and particularly in relation to the keeping pace power as my colleagues pointed out before there is a significant body of EU law that is changing as we speak right now I believe Strasbourg is in session presumably passing more of it and therefore there is a degree to which there is a need to know what is happening before decisions of scrutiny can be made about what has been done or hasn't been done I think I'll hand over at that point Thank you, Professor Pettock Thank you I think it's clearly important for this committee and for the Scottish Parliament and Scottish officials generally to engage in all the areas where the UK Government is engaging as and to press for representation in all devolved areas at the same time looking at the extent of the overlap of the devolved areas with UK Government competences sets up an issue of relevance Lord Frost is quite happy for relevant participation but as you will be at the committees aware the IMA really cuts across a very large number of the areas of devolved competence and so what is or what is not relevant requires persistent scrutiny I think that scrutiny is also important from the point of view of this committee's role in looking at the Scottish legislation's alignment with EU legislation going forward and I think that when it comes to the importance of actually engaging with the EU directly on that and with policymakers obviously the Scottish Government of the Hubs abroad notably the Brussels office has got a very key role to play I would say that more broadly speaking there are areas in education, in climate in wellbeing and in the cultural and digital economy where the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government can engage directly with the EU where there are a lot of ready ears and ready fora in the policy area and to take one example of that is the educational example there are a large number of federal and confederal Europe-wide bodies involving major Scottish universities the Divis EU confederation is meeting tomorrow in Brussels which is the move towards a currently nine but will be 10 strong confederal European university which the University of Glasgow is represented in and although some of the developments recently by the Scottish Government to reinstate student mobility from the EU are very welcome we're still a very long way from the two way mobility which is necessary to support Horizon and other funding bids going forward that two way mobility between students and researchers is actually critical to the future engagement of Scotland with the European Union more generally on a policy and an academic sphere and the links between the two I think should be a particular matter of attention for this committee Thank you very much I'll now move to questions from the committee can I remind members when asking a question to see who is for or select which panel member they would like to answer first and I'll invite Mr Cameron to Thank you, thank you, convener and good morning to the panel thank you for joining us my question I think is to follow up to some of the comments that have been made in relation to our Scotland's relations with the EU and I think we all accept that even after Brexit the EU will be a focus for Scotland's international presence but last week we heard from the Cabinet Secretary that the keeping pace power for example hasn't been used and isn't anticipated to be used in the near future and I just wonder if the panel have any observations about the balance that should be struck between our presence in the EU and more widely and I think Kirsty Hughes and if I could come to you first because I noted that you said you made a comment about this in one of your comments that it's necessary to spread our wings more widely I hope I'm not mischaracterising you but I just wondered about balance particularly because also I think I'm right in saying that the two new international offices that are proposed are in Warsaw and Copenhagen which is obviously within the EU and I suppose I'm asking is how we got the balance right here I certainly agree with you that it's important that there is a strong focus on Scotland-EU relations your comment on keeping pace not being used I think takes us on to another issue that maybe we'll come back to later but I think as you know there are other ways than the keeping pace powers to actually stay abreast of some EU laws and it's extremely important that that's done in a transparent way in that the Scottish Parliament can scrutinise that a couple of comments on the heart of your question though about the EU international balance Firstly I think one of the challenges post Brexit and it's a challenge at UK as well as at Scotland level is politicians and officials are no longer in the room and there were very very many rooms you know if you try to count how many council working groups and European Parliament meetings there were in any week you know there are dozens in Brussels, Strasbourg and elsewhere so we're not just thinking of not being at big European summits and of course there's also lots of informal networking and discussion around those meetings so we're outside the room looking in and that means we have to work harder to maintain contacts to get some but not as much information as we had before and to try and be influential when that's in our interests so of course there are limited resources and the question is how you prioritise them but in terms of that impact of Brexit that in itself would make a case for more focus I think on Europe and then of course we will come on to this and it's in the evidence and in the questions but could the EU and the EEA remain Scotland's biggest trade partner if you include just over 50% of Scotland's trade with the EU and after countries and there are also geographically close and in many ways sympathetic if that's the right word or reasonably closely aligned to some of Scottish and UK policy interests and priorities for instance in the area of climate and you know if you look at the plans you have in Copenhagen for instance as I understand it that's meant to also have a regional focus not only meant to focus on Denmark so to me that one particularly makes sense in terms of trying to increase the geographical range in the EU I also think and it's not clear to me that this is the view of the Scottish Government or not the Scottish Government has a so-called international relations strategy I think it needs a new assessment it's not very strategic, it's not very coherent and I'm not quite sure how long it's been there I would say that Europe probably needs to be at the heart of that international strategy but then you need to in a sense put your policy priorities across your geographical priorities and then see where that takes you in terms of whether your other international offices that obviously already are there need to be further expanded or whether they can be adequately serviced from the small number that already exists I think that there is obviously a problem or a risk of being too thinly read but I also think we see it everywhere we see cities engage internationally we see regions engage internationally we see substates engage internationally so certainly there's a case also to be international but I think it makes perfect sense to put Europe at the core of that and I think that's not what the UK Government has done so in terms of potential differences between Scottish Government and UK Government approaches that might be one to look at but I would personally my view would be that the UK Government should put the EU more despite Brexit more at the heart of its international and so-called global Britain policies Do any of the other panellists want to come in on that? Yes I wouldn't mind and I think that's an excellent question Deputy convener because what lies behind it is a question about strategy and I think that if you look at the overall footprint of the Scottish Government overseas among sub-state actors the budget devoted to its overseas representation is not particularly high so comparatively speaking it's a relatively modest overseas presence but I think one of the questions you're raising is that of a strategic and if they're in Kirsty's answer too is that of the strategic priorities and obviously the EU and interaction with the EU for the reasons that cross the outland is a strategic priority there are other strategic areas like diaspora connections where there's actually a significant overlap with the UK's global Britain agenda and there are trade priority areas too and I think what we don't yet see is a strategy which clearly marks the key EU diasporic and trade partners and there's also within the EU particularly areas where that element of Scottish branding I alluded to in my first response is also critical for example the climate strategies linked to Nordic and Arctic policy whereas which is where the hub in Copenhagen makes particular sense so I think that it's it's not a particularly heavily funded international terms strategy it's not perhaps absolutely yet a completely clear strategy but it's focal points of what it should focus on are I think very clear and some of them are extremely well-served by the existing and planned hubs thank you Dr Mark stupid thanks thank you that question I think it's an important one and as the previous answers have alluded to there is an overall strategy question here to be looked at I think it is worth thinking about how the UK and the Scottish Government work together in terms of wider UK trade strategy and how Scotland fits into that strategy in particular I'm thinking about that the UK has moved towards things like CPTPP and it's looking at Wales out with Australia and New Zealand and how that is going to fit I also think that there has to be a realism about what can be achieved with as people say relatively limited resources and the reality is that I would suggest that the smaller countries and parts of countries that have been quite successful with their engagement abroad have picked topics and you know focused on those I think the keeping pace power it's an interesting question how much it will be and won't be used at how much time that is going to take but there is an inevitability that working with the EU is going to remain important I would also emphasise some of the EEA countries in Switzerland are as well useful to be working with since they share again some of the similar issues to which the UK and Scotland will in terms of their relations with the EU Norway in particular has been very good at working out how to engage in Brussels and even looking slightly more broadly at the importance of being aware of policy developments areas like Bavaria have done very well in informing both people within Germany and in Bavaria itself and indeed in Brussels as well about what it is that matters to them organisations such as Scotland House can seek to emulate such models as they go forwards Thank you for those answers Can I just pick up on something that Dr Mark said in his last comments which is how does Scottish Government policy interact with UK Government policy which is in fact one of the issues at the heart of this inquiry As we know international relations is a reserved matter under the Scotland Act and yet I think we all accept that it's important Scotland has an international presence Most of the international offices I think I'm right in saying are located within UK embassies Can I ask the panel what's best practice here how does Scottish Government policy best interact with UK Government policy when it comes to international relations what are the pitfalls what are the flashpoints and if I could go to Dr Mark's first Again thank you for the question I would sort of following on from what I was saying I think the importance here is going to be transparency between both sides I think the importance is going to be identifying areas where there can be work done together and as you say whilst it's important to acknowledge the limitations of what can be done by the Scottish Government under the devolution settlement it's also important to acknowledge that Scottish ministers will be responsible for the implementation of international agreements just as they will be responsible for the implementation of EU law in the past I think this is one where the challenges at the moment politically between the various Governments and the various devolved legislatures make this perhaps a little difficult to see but as we move forward I would hope that more formal structures can come back into the forth and again I think some of this comes down to sort of more broader intergovernmental structures in which foreign affairs and international affairs will inevitably become a part I think the Scottish Government's work out with those structures should take into account the framework of what the UK is doing and again there should be transparency about what that is to both this committee and indeed the UK Government things like the Friends of Scotland group for instance that the Scottish Government could meet with to try and influence the European Parliament and again Norwegians have done very effectively trying to influence the European Parliament I think that that's the sort of good work that should be done I also think that it needs to be done in a way that is co-ordinated with a whole UK approach a process which has to cut both ways both the UK has to take into account the evolution settlement and the devolved Governments must take into account what UK Government and wider policy is and I think I'll hand over to others at that point Do Professor Pitter or Kirsty Hughes want to come in here Professor Pitter? To ask your question directly I think that the great advantage here is to extend the range of the team as it were because there is a very strong resonance for the Scottish voice abroad and that in many cases aids the UK voice and pitfalls and I think that all the hubs are very aware of these issues are policy discussions overseas in those areas and particularly the discussion of anything explicitly political which might occur within the context of a British Embassy I have to say that even those hubs that are not in British embassies are very diplomatic when it comes to the British Government for example the Scotland in Europe document launched at the Scotland House in London I was very carefully included Caroline Wilson at that stage head of European affairs now of course UK Ambassador to China and other UK Government representatives so I think that practice here is often very secure and more secure than sometimes the way in which it's discussed and there's a good awareness in the hubs that do work inside British embassies particularly for example in until recently I'm not saying anything's really a declined at all but John Webster's role as a UK diplomat moving to the Scottish hub in Dublin made relations particularly good there an example of good practice I think currently is the work that the Scottish Government and the Department of International Trade are doing on the Dubai Expo with five separate Scottish days the first of the Scottish space day and the launch of the Scottish space strategy very effective, good coverage in CNN and a really a high level of global recognition coming from that and the DIT and the Scottish Government working very well together there so I think the issue is here that informally the flash points are very well recognised on both sides and it's actually getting a wider formal understanding of that because I'm not aware that any Scottish Government hub has any interest and particularly warns people off if they should think about it explicit political events or policy discussions which touch on reserved business and Kirsty Hughes I think you talk about you know formal relations or foreign policy yes is reserved but a wider acceptance Scotland has an external affairs policy and a committee of course interesting if you look bluntly at where the UK Government and Scottish Government disagree if I was writing a comment piece or even a research paper you can make that look quite stark obviously the UK Government was in favour of Brexit Brexit has happened the Scottish Government was opposed to it it wanted a softer Brexit as a compromise in the single market that didn't happen I think the First Minister said the other day that the UK Government shouldn't trigger article 16 in the discussions over the northern island protocol the longer name of the Scottish Government is independence in the EU and the UK Government wants to keep pace with EU law and involved areas and clearly that's not a name of the UK Government but actually I think it's worth setting that out those political differences because then when you say well but how does that actually impact on the UK or Scotland international relations strategy policy behaviour I think we'd have to say not that much whether it's helpful or unhelpful to the First Minister from the UK Government point of view to say don't trigger article 16 I think Brussels knows who it's negotiating with on that whether or not and how much Scotland does keep pace with EU laws whether that clashes with the internal market act is more a question of internal UK debate and disputes so in a way I see some of the differences that are obviously in starkly there are just part of the fact of having devolved structures administrations, parliaments and so forth and then if you look one more contrast here at the moment relations between the EU and UK are in a pretty bad place trust in the UK Government from the EU side is extremely low I did a paper on this a year ago doing a lot of off the record so-called elite interviews looking at how different EU actors and member states viewed the UK and also viewed Scotland and Scotland was viewed much more positively seems to me in a period of bad UK EU relations and we all have our views on what that looks like and why it's there it's not bad that Scotland and perhaps other devolved administrations have better relations with the EU it's like a multi-track paradigmatic process and when we get to the nitty gritty as my fellow panellists have been talking about this morning when you think about climate change or wanting overall good relations with the EU or wanting good trade relations with the EU the barriers of Brexit wanting to do joint research with the EU I think when you get on to the nitty gritty or also on to the big principles around human rights, multilateralism democracy you are actually going to find a similarity so I don't think interestingly despite those differences I don't think there are necessarily big caches I think as both Dr Marks and Professor Cook have said we need to sort out better the structures for inter-governmental relations if you look at the 2013 memo of understanding the Concordat I think a lot of what it says on why and how devolved administrations in Scotland can and should engage in international relations and through and with UK government is very good but it obviously needs updating and it was drawn up at a time when we were still in the EU and my last brief comment I've been to the hubs in Berlin in Paris the Berlin one sits directly in the embassy my impression from talking to people both in the hubs and in the embassy I didn't get any sense of friction as a lot as you know a lot of cultural work going on some very interesting work around economy, technology things like hydrogen those relations over time that the huge value of having even a small number of people on the ground because these hubs are very small and I think it is already clearly demonstrable so I think the questions are acute and important and I'm not trying to say there won't ever be flash points when you look at what I've outlined as the differences but equally when you try and pin it down and say well does the UK government want good or bad relations with the EU obviously it wants good relations one assumes and therefore there's not a problem that actually at the moment the Scottish Government does have those good relations thank you it's very much and welcome to the witnesses this morning very keen to follow up the comments that we've received from lots of organisations and writing about the Scottish government's international development strategy by yourselves this morning about they need to be more coherent and more strategic so I would be keen to get your views on what the priority should be EU's important both economically and culturally given our relations historically and the issue of international trade its importance but I was wondering if you would want to talk about how we prioritise across the range of issues that you've all mentioned culture, our economic interests and then the post-cop challenge in terms of acting on climate change so and the point just made there by Kirsty Hughes about human rights so just thinking through what you think more needs to be done to be focusing on priorities that should be there for the Scottish Government given that the resources are relatively limited in terms of the overall budget and maybe come to you, Kirsty Hughes first I think it's a good question and it's always an extremely hard one to answer when you are talking about limited resources but of course when we're looking at the Scottish Government's European strategy we're not only talking about the hubs and the Brussels office you've got groups or units or whatever the correct term is of officials in the civil service here in Scotland who are obviously working on and co-ordinating European affairs so my impression is that there is a fairly coherent structure at the moment in terms of fitting the hubs into those wider European strategy bodies and the overall European strategy being coordinated jointly out of Edinburgh and Brussels at that senior level I think that's good but I think what you need more of and it's easy to say and it's never easy to do but I mean one thing that policy experts and academics will always tell you is that there's no clear dividing line between domestic and international policy and that's pretty obvious in terms of things like climate change and trade but the question is how do you mainstream your international European strategy across all your departments all your cabinet all your officials and I'm not sure how well that's being done and that comes back to my sense that there is a better European strategy at the moment than there is an international strategy and as I said in answer to an earlier question you need to go together so I think that's I think that's one issue I think the right it's easy to come up with a list of maybe ten priorities but actually listening to the committee's questions and to my fellow witnesses this morning some of the most obvious and biggest are coming up again and again that's climate change and trade and education and research and one thing that hasn't come up that we should add in here is EU citizens in Scotland you know the contributions they're making and how they fit into relate to the importance of good relations with the EU international development obviously Scotland's a small player and international development UK is larger and the EU is extremely large so I think the question there it comes back to what something Dr Mark said in an earlier question about focus if you focus is there a way where you can actually develop particular expertise particular best practice and so although you're a relatively small actor that you do make a contribution I also think to my last point here you're then you have to think about principles and priorities or if you like principles and interests so it's not that human rights and materialism should just be one of your 10 priorities that should surely be the framework within which you then do whether it's climate change, trade international development, youth education or other issues as your priorities so I also think it doesn't have to be identical and this is the advantage of hubs you want to clear strategic guide for Scottish Government's work as a whole but there may be very specific things on the ground and if the Berlin hub is talking to German businesses and researchers about hydrogen technology it doesn't automatically mean that that would make sense for the Copenhagen and Paris hubs as well so I think within any strategy you're always going to be mixing the specific and the priorities but that's why the more it's very clearly structured across these different components of values, interests priorities and specific areas within that that not only helps to have more impact it also helps coordination it helps reporting back it's ought to help if there's a clear strategy accountability and transparency back to the Scottish Parliament Thank you Professor Pittock you made some points about both culture and education I was wondering how you saw that fitting into the priorities in terms of the Scottish Government's work on international development Thank you I think that what I call overall brand and I have called that in the response is very important and by brand I certainly mean things like the Scottish Government's reputation and Scotland's reputation in climate, digital progressive and humanitarian legislation and the digital and cultural economy in particular where I lead the work stream for the Scottish Arts Humanities Alliance but also I mean that Scotland's Scotland's got a strong brand abroad its brand is very nostalgic it's principally a couple of hundred years old in terms of its perception and there's very poor recognition both in the anhalt and the British Council data of Scotland's cutting edge position in science as one of the most cited countries in the world per capita one of the things that was really useful in the hubs in recent years was the presentation in Scotland House London which supported the Strength in Places funding for translational medicine in Scotland and by putting the bid in front of some of the major players in a context, a London context who could be reached there in the British and Scottish context so I think actually promoting cutting edge research is a key element in what should be done because that's part of actually building a very different vision of Scotland from praiseworthy as it is in a castle, mountains, heather and whisky so brand is really important thought of as a complete entity including contemporary research trade is very important and the matrix of both of those things is the EU and the diaspora where are the strongest links that cross over between brand and trade EU and the diaspora locations so those out of that I think it's pretty clear to make a set, a very clear overarching set of strategic priorities those will have operational variations in different countries that's very useful I'm thinking also about the forward development partner countries how do they fit into that strategy where maybe it's more climate support particularly post-cop and thinking about supporting civic groups that's one of the issues raised by the groups from Malawi so I think that the research sector fits there very well to take Malawi as an example Scottish universities for example this goes back more than 20-25 years to our Clyde but other universities too have been engaged in infrastructure development in education opportunity in Malawi and I think the issue is that some of these developments with the development target countries could take place across government in the higher education sector more formally and with a greater publicity of a co-operative effort but I think that they fit in very nicely to one aspect of what I've been discussing and of course the more one engages at this kind of level the more soft power and a positive sentiment towards the relationship develops Thanks Doctor Marx, do you have a comment about the issue of priorities and the strategic approach to be effective across thinking about both the European connection but how you prioritise the rest of the world and where the four partner countries fit in there I think in the broader strategic approach I'd have to have some thoughts for the moment at least the issue is that we are very much in a state of transition I guess that the Brexit process has ended formally but in the wider sense it seems like we've all been talking about Brexit for a long time we are still explaining to the rest of the world where they fit into it and I think that is a UK and a Scottish project and I think that fits with a post-cop trying to explain what the UK's priorities are in that and indeed where Scotland is going to fit within that with other partner countries I think in broader terms but also emphasise that the rise in prominence of trade policy and where trade policy fits and how trade policy fits into the work of almost every committee within Scottish Parliament and certainly almost all the ones in the UK Parliament as well this is an issue which although it is sometimes rather difficult and close and technical to explain it's also an issue that can become very high level and high profile even before 2016 things like a TTIP an actor definitely motivated a number of people as I'm sure elected representatives will remember and state of their inboxes at the time so I think there is an active interest out there which can be used perhaps for more useful reasons in terms of focus I think there's an issue and it was one of the other questions that was asked about sort of geography versus thematically and I think the again from our side-side I would say thematically to a degree makes more sense because you have to pick the sort of topics that you want be they climate change be they whatever it is that you choose those are areas then you can work across multiple places and then this is again where coordination with the UK government and Scottish Government becomes quite important which as other panellists have pointed out can work quite well soft power for instance burns night suffers despite what has just been said are highly effective ways of area for all of its reputation of being a high tech hub still does Oktoberfest events the world over and we'd really love to have burns suffers as well I'm sure so I think it's about picking the focus and then working effectively as we can across that thank you can bring in Mr Ruskell please yeah thanks convener I was just listening to all those comments and I was struck by what Sir Hughes was saying about this sort of multi-track paradigmatic process and where perhaps sub-state legislatures, Governments can kind of fit with that alongside the actions of states as well I wonder if you had more sort of examples of that and one which sprung to my mind was I understood from a discussion with a Canadian mission in Brussels that there'd been quite a lot of bilateral discussions between Beck and Wallonia during the talks on the CETA trade agreement but I wondered if you had examples of where those kind of sub-state actors can be involved in a wider multilateral discussion that might point to how Scotland could be involved with the UK you want to answer first well could I start with Dr Hughes on that one and if others would like to comment on that then I'll move on to another question thank you it's another good question you've already given the example of Quebec which does have an office in Brussels I actually think we've already mentioned Bavaria and most of the, if not all of the German regions or lender have offices in Brussels and they're very important and powerful Norway is not a sub-state it's a state but you know it's a very big office in Brussels so I think I think in fact we could look at various examples but I would urge you not to only look at sub-state examples because you may be able to learn from what's going on with city networks you may be able to learn from what's happening with states like Norway and I think what's also very interesting is actually there's a lot to be learnt from small states within the EU a research project produced a paper on small states within the EU a year and a half ago and that may seem quite a long way from Scotland as a sub-state outside the EU but what's fascinating about what the smaller states in the EU do is apart from that they are in the room and they have a seat at all the tables they do an enormous amount of informal networking and lobbying building long run alliances whether it's on climate or trade or tech or something else when you ask diplomats and others from those countries what their priorities and tactics are they talk about getting in early when a new and important policy issue is being discussed looking for compromises being very aware of other allies interests and needs so that if you're in the EU and maybe your island you may not be as worried about the EU's eastern frontier as Poland is but there's a bit of reciprocity in give and take so not all those lessons will go across but I think quite a lot of those lessons will go across so I mean I think that's one point yes there's a lot of this at sub-state level and it could be interesting to investigate that more though there's been some research papers done on that I think the other thing that could be very helpful it's come up again and again this morning that there are a whole range of Scottish civil society networks and participation in networks that maybe universities it's business it's NGOs it's all sorts of groups and by definition those are not governmental bodies but is the Scottish Government and is the Scottish Parliament sure it's across all those networks very dense and it's easy to pick out some of the big and main ones but it could potentially be a really useful piece of work to try and elaborate in greater detail what that full range of networks are so I've gone a bit more broadly than just your question but I think that point about there are so many layers and levels that could be engaged with and again of course it will come back to the question of priorities well here's 200 ways but what are your top four and what are the most you know are the most interesting substates for Scotland ones inside the EU even though we no longer are is it ones in the after countries so Geneva or North Norway or what is there to learn from something like Quebec also what is there to learn if you look at Ireland which is a core EU member state it's in the euro it's very committed to its European relationships but it also has a clear and distinct global foreign policy despite being a smaller country how does it interact that foreign policy with its EU policy and how does it for instance make choices internationally when it's small so I think not to be too nervous at learning from states as well as substates it's obviously a complex landscape many many different rooms in Brussels to be in or out of can I ask then Doctor Marx and then Professor Pitex same question I'd echo a lot of this I think the key point I'd make is that the UK and Scottish governments work can very much complement each other and I think that that's important to emphasise throughout this you know Quebec, Wallonia, Bavaria for example, they do their own work they do their own policies but it very much complements what else is being done Quebec for instance picked the priorities it was particularly interested in which was CETA as a trade deal for obvious reasons also it was part of the negotiating sense of how Canada is federally set up but beyond that they had then also chosen other priorities so for example particularly AI was one that they identified earlier on and they've been observers of various high-level expert groups from the European Commission which is the sort of thing that could be looked at as strategies which would then complement well with what the UK government is doing. I would emphasise that for this to work this needs a sort of an atmosphere of trust and cooperation which we've already discussed at some length but I think transparency goes some ways to helping this and I think this is where conversations needs to be had in public and through the various bodies that exist for that to happen and possibly some others to enable everybody to be aware of what everyone's doing and this then also feeds into the broader points of civil society but if civil society know what is happening then they too can engage which have even put further broadens the pool of people who are looking to contribute and help and focus on these objectives. Again it's the picking the objectives which I accept is going to be the very difficult part of this. Thank you. Professor Pettit. Thank you. I think that for example at the UK Canada annual colloquium this year there was very full representation from the Canadian provinces not just Quebec in terms of the discussion of policy formulation within Canada. I think that other states are very well aware of this kind of balance and obviously the Scottish Government represented from the UK. If we were to look there are a whole range of issues in the sub-state area here from the extent of Flanders comprehensive range of domestic institutions and a great deal of discussion in terms of developing or augmenting current Scottish institutions could usefully take place in a Flemish context to the fact that Bavaria while very geared towards the overall and alignment of the overall aspects of the Federal Republic has for many years for over 50 years put pressure on the Federal Republic for example on immigration in the 1960s and 70s when it felt that the alignment was not working in its interest. The alignment is not a one-way street. Alignment is also a negotiation. I would also stress that I mentioned the EU civis network or already a confederal network that has to focus on large cities. The EU is very aware itself that large cities global cities and often the institutions that are not least higher education institutions are the major drivers of economic growth. We cannot overlook the large city here. In terms of joint working with states, I have not mentioned yet the bilateral review with Ireland the implementation in which stretches to the next Irish Government review on the national strategy in 2025. Clearly, that bilateral review showed that there were significant areas of commonality in the diaspora and elsewhere between the Scottish Government and the State Government and the same applies in the Arctic with Iceland and elsewhere. It is a three-layer level of engagement. There is a state engagement which is transparent and does not constitutionally show powers but is where their common interests. There is a sub-state agreement level engagement but that also means that there has to be a greater transparency and understanding about how sub-state and state relationships work elsewhere in global terms. That came to some extent out of the Canadian colloquium this year but could profitably come out of a number of the EU sub-state organisations. There is also the global cities issue and I do not think that the Scottish Government representational policy can afford to lose sight of any of those three interlocutors. Okay, thank you very much. Just one question convener and I was reading the law society's submission and you know you're making the point about there needs to be some formal mechanisms for monitoring our international engagement. Given that very potentially quite complex picture you've just outlined what do you think that should look like and I think you'd suggested Dr Marks a memorand of understanding between the Scottish Government and ourselves in the Scottish Parliament and I guess it's this sense of how can we get a grip of what that work looks like I'm not suggesting a list of every single burn supper that's taken place every single hub there might be a bit too much but in terms of scrutiny do you think those formal mechanisms should look like so I can go to Dr Marks and if the other panellists have got anything to add on that that would be useful Yeah, absolutely I think the important thing to emphasise this is as we've discussed something that would have to evolve as time went on and evolve to the needs and response to policy as it happens but I think at the minimum looking for some sort of commitment to regular and scheduled evidence sessions to this committee and other relevant committees from ministers where they have actually engaged abroad and what are relevant to the Scottish Parliament some sort of commitment to reporting I mean I agree every single burn supper may not be necessarily the requirements that align and threshold of what needs to be reported is one that would require careful thought but reporting of meetings reporting of what is being done again this would have to take into account some confidentiality and commercial reasons if nothing else potentially again I would refer back to my previous statements that the transparency is the friend of much of this process but there will always be some limits I think also as I've said before some sort of commitment to keeping the Parliament up to date on EU law developments as they are happening would be useful particularly to this committee so it can assess what is happening and obviously the wider things the budget process would presumably take care of what we currently have now in terms of paying for the forum of that as it has done by the Scottish Government but again scrutiny of that is always welcome potentially and again that the final most difficult part of this is part of it would be something to acknowledge how it would fit with the other intergovernmental structures within the UK which obviously accept a moment would be a challenging part to write but I think that would be a starting point as far as I could see thank you the other panellists have got a reflection on that Dr Hughes thank you just briefly I agree with what Dr Marx has said I think scrutiny is important both in and of itself we need transparency and accountability but I think it's come up repeatedly this morning that we do need more coherence in international policy more clarity both in itself of Scotland and in how that relates to UK Government actions and so on so I think for a regular and I think for reasonably detailed reporting agreement of some sort would be beneficial and we can we can smile at whether we want to know how many burn suppers there are but frankly one assumes that the hubs are indeed reporting back to the European directors so actually if we know whether there were 5 or 55 burn suppers that's actually perfectly easy to or ought to be to put on a list of reporting I think we've not spent too much time on the keeping pace process this morning but it is nonetheless an aim of the Scottish Government to align in devolved areas to EU laws and as I said earlier that doesn't have to be done through keeping pace legislation it can be done through other legislative routes but since it's actually a rather important strategic I'd say aim I would be asking and trying to agree with the Scottish Government that all aspects of aligning with EU laws so it encompasses other ways of doing this but there is proper and full reporting on that and also what I understand is that where there have been so far some efforts to align with EU laws it's not necessarily complete alignment so there may be a new EU law and there's agreement on well the goal is X in some specific environment goal for instance but we don't have to achieve it in exactly the way they are doing so in the EU because we're no longer in the EU and because businesses might find it easier to do it in another way that raises some very interesting questions is the aim to stay as aligned as possible because perhaps at some future point Scotland and the rest of the UK might rejoin even the single market there are benefits of being exactly aligned so you can minimise some of the Brexit regulatory barriers or is it just a kind of general general good intention now we could have multiple reports and evidence sessions on that but I think it's a fundamental question and so that should be there when considering what sort of agreement might be feasible what the Scottish Government should indeed be really making clear to the Scottish Parliament okay thanks thank you can you move on to questions from Ms Binto please thank you convener and thank you panel I'd like to explore a bit more the education side and the connections both across Europe and also the diaspora Professor Pittock you talked about the two way movement of students and I was very struck when I visited SAMS about ten days ago about the impact of their student numbers also the law society talked about broadening horizons of our own students and then also the research side as well so I'd just like to hear some further thoughts and reflections on how the Scottish Government can work to improve that these links perhaps Dr Mark to start with you Jess Jess, I have to I think to some extent it's a little bit difficult to comment too much on where we're going because the Turing scheme isn't particularly bedded in but we welcome efforts to try to replace the Erasmus scheme as was which certainly we know that a large number of lawyers did take advantage of it over its existence we also welcome the Soul Tire scheme which is trying to very much support people inside there I think I would also feed your question into some of the general networks which have been alluded to elsewhere in terms of how we coordinate with the profession across Europe so for instance in our case the Law Society of Scotland is maintaining an affiliate membership with the Council of Fars and Law Society of Europe this was negotiated after the Brexit process and this was very much reached alongside the rest of the UK delegation so that we have some voting rights on issues of importance but not voting rights to us but not voting rights on issues relevant to EU law and I think that sort of networking will feed into the wider sort of educational aspects where lawyers work where lawyers will liaise with and work with and those sort of networks that we need to now work harder than ever to maintain those parts of the networks which as with much of it is bedding in at the moment it is a very new status for all of us and will require close attention and work and potentially will have more idea about how successful much of this is in 5 years time 10 years time than we do now Thank you It's positive to hear that that works going ahead and I think it's very important not only from a legislation perspective but also understanding the legal side and the human rights side of things as well and from my own previous background as an accountant as well keeping consistency of policies across that area Doctor Hughes could you comment please I only have a little to add I think it was extremely disappointing that the UK Government shows not to continue to participate in the Erasmus programme when you look at the decision to stay associated with the horizon research programme but not with the Erasmus programme it looks to my mind rather ideological and it clearly restricts opportunities for young people and I think everything we said this morning in a sense is about how do we preserve, protect, develop create our European and international networks and Scotland is a European country you don't have to be in the EU to be a European country so I think all the things that Doctor Marx has just talked about the Sulta scheme we'll see how the Turing scheme works but it's clearly not the same as the Erasmus scheme it may be that the UK Government in the future might change its mind on Erasmus but for the moment we are where we are so we can be done to mitigate the impacts of Brexit and keep those sorts of opportunities open is important and maybe it links back to what I was saying before about the better and more detailed picture there is of the range of civil society including business participation and networking and all the city and sub-state networks we've been talking about across Europe may also give rise to new ideas of building on the basics as offered by the Sultaer insurance scheme Thank you Doctor Pita, have you anything to add I know you've already expanded on education but you may have something further to add I think I do have something further to add actually as the sole representative of the higher education sector here which is that Scotland was the number one recipient to the Erasmus students there were 2,904 in 2019 67% of those students studied arts and humanities those data from the British academies report in 2021 so we've got a very large chunk of people who are not being replaced by welcome as it is the current Sultaer schemes we've also got a situation where the Welsh Government are currently investing a very substantial sum of money over £100 million over the period of 2025 in replicating a two-way Erasmus scheme with European partners and what I would stress is that welcome as it is to bring students from the EU to Scotland and that's a very important part of our dialogue if we don't send people out if we do not have a two-way exchange process then we are not getting the benefits which the Erasmus scheme introduced in 1987 originally set up and particularly we're not getting the dialogue with European civic institutions, with European research institutions, with European universities and with the horizon network if indeed we fully affiliate, the UK fully affiliates to it in an appropriate way which can develop research funding our research capacity and also the understandings through the very significant proportion of the Erasmus bilateralism that went to internships work placements and so forth so currently it's great we've made some progress it's rather remarkable that more progress has been made in Cardiff than Edinburgh significantly more progress and the lack of bilateralism is a real problem and cheering is not a bilateral scheme either so without bilateralism we don't get exchanges and we've already seen that the current regulations on European ID cards are keeping 80% plus of school trips out of the UK and that includes Scotland from continental Europe so that all these things from European pen piles to friends to students to business to research exchanges all these things are being adversely affected in a way which is of course entirely retrievable but which will tend to a decay in appropriate bilateral relationships over time and a sustained bilateral support for educational movement is a significant part of that Thank you very much Professor Pittock Can I move on to a slightly different subject completely different subject two weeks ago Glasgow hosted COP26 really the centre of the international world I'd just be interested on your thoughts and reflections of the impact of COP26 on Scottish international development perhaps start with Dr Hughes Sorry but when you say Scottish international development you mean Scotland international relations Yes absolutely sorry Yes exactly I mean I think well done such big and vital global events can obviously be very positive to the host country and I think from what I saw Scotland and the Scottish Government but also a whole range of other actors and NGOs, civil society and so on business too all took great advantage of that and I think as I've mentioned earlier today there are more positive views especially in the EU but to some extent internationally of the Scottish Government at the moment than there are of the UK Government and I think we can all see why that is why the Brexit process has unfolded so I think I don't think it's good that UK and international views of the UK Government are where they are but I think wherever views of the UK Government are it's obviously in Scotland's interests that it's Government even if you're an opposition politician that it's Government has good international relations and that reflects positively on the country as a whole so I mean obviously there's more serious issues here in terms of what COP didn't achieve the climate emergency and what happens next I think that does again no underline the importance of European relations for all some of the weaknesses in the EU's climate positions it's one of relatively speaking the climate leaders in the world and Scotland has its own challenges around climate policy and a just transition from North Sewell and gas but also much to offer in terms of sustainable renewable energy so I think whether one's thinking of it in terms of soft-para diplomacy or actual engagement with the crucial issue of in that sense I think it reflected well on Scotland I was thinking I was kind of building on the ideas from Professor Pittock about relationships and the sharing of knowledge and that side of things as well so I don't know if the other two panellists would like to comment at all Professor Pittock, no? I just think I simply agree but I think one of the things that came out of it was that actually although it appeared that the UK and Scottish Governments might not work well together and the run-up to COP they did work well together at COP and that actually perhaps even more could have been achieved if there had been less politics earlier on though I know politics is inevitable but actually it was a success for co-operation in the end Thank you Thank you Can I move to questions from Dr Alwyn, please? Thank you very much Again, questions for Professor Pittock You mentioned today a couple of times about soft power and the role that presenting Scotland's culture to the world can play not just as a good in itself but in the exercise of soft power I wonder can you say a bit more about how others see us how that's developed over the last generation in terms of how Scotland is seen culturally and also to what ends that soft power you think might usefully be exercised So Thank you very much for that I think that first of all Scotland's international brand is very well recognised but it has remained duck to some extent that is that both the anhalt brand and previously anhalt GFK Roper branding and the British Council research indicate no real particular movement in perception there's some slight areas of improvement or change but basically it's a fairly nostalgic view of Scottish culture Now there are opportunities in that view and Baron Supper's mentioned a few times already but actually of course there are quite a few big Baron Suppers in Europe and North America which have very significant business and trade presence and they do represent opportunities and of course I'm very supportive as the author of the relevant report of Barnes and the Scottish Economy but I think also that the inquire which is currently being taken on local food production for example has got a good tourist and international markets link in terms of the demand for provenance and story attached to food and drink which is again very much part of the traditional brand so I think that that said there are things to be done with the traditional brand, a great deal you can't ignore it, you must utilise it but it is rather stuck and I think that the extension as I've suggested to research and to the cutting edge nature of I think that Scottish space strategy was a good example at WBiExpo the cutting edge nature of work in Scotland in industry, in SMEs in universities is an important part of soft power what are the ends of that soft power the ends of that soft power are to not just not change, not transform but to alter the way to extend the way in which Scotland is perceived and to marry up more clearly Scotland's clear commitment to a modern society to the climate emergency and to the digital and cultural economy with the way in which the country in general is perceived so it will modernise the Scottish brand without losing the essence of its underpinning appeal and I think that's important because it simply makes Scotland and the Scottish brand more influential in the world and the more influential the Scottish brand is in the world the more it can contribute as in terms of having every player on the team can contribute to the UK's position internationally also Can I ask also the role that the hubs play in that and other activities how cost effective you feel they are I mean there's been some political discussion and debate about whether more hubs can be justified or not I mean I feel they can how does their cost effectiveness or frugalness or otherwise compare to some other diplomatic actors who perhaps found their entertaining and architectural traditions more on the conference of Vienna I think that others can give chapter and verse here but certainly Scotland is a very low spender in international sub-state actor terms certainly in absolute terms and depending on the state possibly also per capita in terms of its representation so I think what we need to ensure is the greater transparency over what the hubs do how they do it and their success I think there's some success stories from the hubs that I know of that haven't yet got through into general circulation and that's part of what we're discussing this morning but others may have chapter and verse on the numbers which are certainly available but Scotland is a relatively low outlier so finally do you see or when you have a view about whether or not there should be more hubs in the future and is the model of co-location you've said it's a helpful one but is it a necessary one well I think it depends what you want to do I mean there could be more hubs in the future and there's certainly I can certainly think of the top of my head of areas where there could be hubs that would fit in with the grade and EU prioritise do they have to be in the British Embassy I think there are sometimes issues currently if they are not when I used to trade very carefully there but if for example a model was taken I talked about large city relationships whereby there was a hub in a major city which I'm talking about very large cities but which are not state capitals in which a British Embassy was not cited then clearly there would be a case for the Scottish Government having a separate hub there if that was the decision if that was the decision taken thank you thank you I can move to questions from Mr Golden thank you convener and perhaps initially start with Dr Adam Marks just in his submission from the Lost Society of Scotland they emphasised that they would welcome the Scottish Parliament having oversight of the decision not to align with EU law would you be able to expand on this issue and what parliamentary oversight you feel would be welcome and what form this would take absolutely it's a good question and I think it's also a very challenging question I think really the starting point is as Kirsty has alluded to you can use the keeping pace power or not to follow EU law and really as I'd like to point out the scale of what is happening in EU law on a year to year basis last year I've just done it out there's 1,356 legal acts were adopted in 2020 across the EU many of these will not be relevant to Scotland trying to keep pace with EU law and there are questions about what the objects are within that the initial scoping point must be what is the purpose of this and what are we looking to but what I would like to see is more information given particularly about the sort of nature of policy in EU to parliamentarians and therefore there is more obvious questions that can emerge from parliamentarians that are interested in why decisions have been made because the decision to follow something could be as significant as the decision not to follow something so I think that that is more particularly starting to dig at in terms of the processes this could be part of the memorandum of understanding I referred to earlier it may be that it's not particularly for this committee because it could be something that is particularly relevant to a different committee if it is an environmental piece of legislation or something so I think it is that sort of scale and scope across the parliament is this sort of thing that every committee is going to have to be thinking about in the background of its work going forward thank you thank you would any of the other panel members like to comment yes, I'm happy to um I mean I think as Dr Marx has said you know first of all if you're going to do this then there's a huge amount of information gathering potentially to be done and obviously it's a unilateral Scottish Government decision to do that you don't have any Scottish Government EU body to discuss that or to discuss what appropriate laws and devolved areas would be however there is in fact one short cut on that despite all the controversy around the Northern Ireland protocol at the moment obviously Northern Ireland under the protocol stays in the EU single market for goods but either already is or is going to be a process by which all relevant laws EU laws that need to go into Northern Ireland laws or regulations are clearly listed so there may be a short cut for both the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government but I mean I think this real issue is around in terms of transparency and accountability Dr Marx talked about what is it for what choices are being made because in this huge range of legislation some of it's not actually going to be feasible given where outside the EU and it's not only not going to be feasible for instance because of the internal market actually maybe to do with regulatory structures non-participation in various EU bodies that are relevant to overseeing EU law so there may be therefore specific technical institutional reasons not to follow but there may be a whole series of political policy and strategic choices being made both in terms of which laws to align with and as I've said before how closely to align and that's not something that should just be being done in the background you know by the Scottish Government and officials so I think that's very important to have to have a full and comprehensive view of if different issues will go to different committees I think to get a sense of the overall balance is one that I would think is for your committee and is extremely important Thank you Doctor Hughes Does Professor Pittock like to come in with any additional comments? No? Okay I'd like to just move on to a slightly different subject area just around how Scottish elected representatives engage with the EU The Committee of the Regions is an EU advisory body composed of locally and regional elected representatives I would just like the panel's views and I'll think I'll start with Doctor Hughes of how and should Scottish elected representatives engage with the Committee of the Regions To be honest I'm not sure what's feasible but I think if and the other panelist may know better than me so I won't dwell on it if there are existing examples of non-EU member states or sub-states or regions engaging with the Committee of the Regions then I think that would be welcome and a good idea and if you look at for instance the way Scotland and the Scottish Government are engaged with the Arctic Council with Nordic Governments it's not a full member of relevant regional bodies but nonetheless it has managed to engage with meetings and events and so forth and I think that is well recognised it does have some impact so I would to some extent disagree with the view that Scotland is only viewed through a traditional there's obviously a question of balance there but I think some of those interaction with regional bodies and not only the EU Committee of the Regions but that is obviously one and we've mentioned before the Friends of Scotland group and the Scottish and the European Parliament so I'm not sure of the detail of that but I think definitely worth exploring Thank you for that contribution and the other panellists like to come in on that Yes Doctor Marks I'd just like to echo Kirsty's comments I think it would be welcome to have any engagement possible I think as we've sort of discussed at length before there will be elements of prioritisation within this that will to some extent come down to this the Committee of Regions is a that covers a diverse body of opinion and this is one where you can raise issues away from some of the sort of political heat of some of the other institutions which can be useful particularly if you're looking to raise issues earlier in the processes I would also echo the comments about the Friends of Scotland group I think engaging with MEPs themselves is important on issues that are of mutual interest to both this committee and the Scottish Government and the MEPs where possible I think it would be a body that is going to help fill some of the gaps that is there so I would recommend that as well Thanks Thank you Professor Pittock Thank you Just to say that very much in favour of engaging with informal groups and relevant groups such as the Arctic Council on a technicality the regions the regions grouping is limited my understanding to EU member states and therefore the most that could happen surely would be informal observer status there is no EU member state represented in the European Committee of the Region non EU member state Thank you panel Thank you I have a couple of additional questions but I'm at that point where I have to ask for concise questions and answers if possible please Can I go first Mr Cameron Thank you convener I've got two questions I'll ask them as concisely as possible The first is to ask how do we measure success I think that's one of the hardest things about Scotland's international footprint how do we practically measure success and the second question is are the panel satisfied that there is enough co-ordination particularly on thematic issues between the various international offices and hubs that exist as well as I think the Scotland development international offices which are also in place Let's start with Professor Pitter Yes on your second question I think that there is good co-ordination but I don't think it's altogether visible so I think that's an issue for the issues of transparency around this committee I'm not clear actually that in many of the events I've been to abroad where SDI are being represented and where sometimes the UK Government is being represented the alignment between SDI and Scottish Government representation is absolutely clear and perfect On the first point I do that success always has many parents but I do think that we need some measures of activity which has led to successful outcomes KPIs if you like about hub activity and success in driving forward trade relationships positive research funding that kind of thing Kirsty Hughes I think on success you obviously have to have multiple indicators if you're going to ask two or three people in a hub to have an immediate obvious impact on trade growth with Germany or something that's not going to be reasonable or realistic but I think that's why the more clarity and to some extent detail there is in European and international structures and strategies then the easier it is to also evaluate for success if you know what they're doing there or what they're meant to be doing there and then you can see where it's going relationship building is a crucial part of all this and that's not for the short term it's for the longer term as Professor Pittock just said you can to some extent monitor that in terms of range of meetings where they've got government with business with civil society what areas they were in how much do those areas match to stated priorities and so forth and it's not really being mentioned much today but perhaps that's telling in itself one of the two new client hubs is in Poland you can see more reasons for the one in Copenhagen perhaps less so at first glance in terms of Poland but again that depends on your strategy how closely is your strategy focused on trade or is it focused on having a good spread across the EU or is it about some of the more diaspora relationships which of the priorities are driving this and how does that fit in the overall strategy co-ordination across hubs in the EU as I said earlier I think from what I understand current and relatively newly restructured structures looks good I don't know if that's working as well internationally but in the absence in my view of a clear and well thought through international strategy then those offices will by definition to some extent be struggling if I'm right on the need for a renewed international strategy and lastly of course Scottish Development International shares office space with the Scottish Government Brussels office improvements have been made and changes to that in the last year or two I think it is so I don't know if that would be seen as a model or as a considerable improvement but again if you're getting regular reporting on how these things are working and whether for instance is the Brussels shared space working better than some other examples around the world as they're learning going on from that and so on so I think questions raise more questions and answers that can perhaps come from some of those who are actually running running these offices and Dr Mark do you have any observations yeah yes just just briefly I would say again I'm struck that in the previous panelist answers to both of your questions transparency is the sort of word that's mentioned more times than anything I'd echo the comments that if we had a clear strategy that is laid out in detail it would be easier to judge what in fact is going to be the outcomes and what can be delivered I would also suggest as a way of perhaps helping to move forward rather than just giving questions to questions is that in terms of looking at sort of the activities of SCDI and the success of the hubs and things again reporting back to you with measures would perhaps be useful and that of course could perhaps be something you'd look at including in a memorandum that would go that way thank you miss Boyack just to follow up the question Morris Golden asked earlier about interparliamentary work and transparency Dr Mark you commented on the need for greater transparency and accountability in interparliamentary relations so just to think through what should our priorities be as a Scottish Parliament in developing those relations I think that we've mentioned earlier soft power coming up all the time but I'm thinking in terms of common interest post-cop and particularly for our committee to understand where the EU is going Scottish Governments keeping pace aspirations what would be your advice on where we start to make recommendations as a committee to our parliamentary colleagues I would start very much with the areas of common interest I think that is the way to proceed in terms of particularly liaising and working with other parliaments trying to find things that both EU Parliament are interested in and they are interested in will usually produce the most amount of dialogue and I think certainly at this stage that's what it's looking for in terms of the keeping pace power that's slightly different in that there's a need there to know what it is the Scottish Government is also doing so that there's a transparency aspect away from just inter-parliamentary relations in the UK there are also wider questions about inter-parliamentary relations which are perhaps slightly different considering we're short of time I'll have to leave for now I was thinking about both of those issues because an issue that came up in our own scrutiny was the challenge of people knowing what's coming next in Europe because we're no longer at the table there we have huge numbers of pieces of European legislation being developed and it's to have a sense about where they're going so that it's not a surprise when issues finally go through the European Parliament so we're just thinking about how we do a bit of forward-looking ourselves I don't know if any of the other witnesses have a comment on that and Kirsty Hughes in terms of inter-parliamentary foresight I think firstly that the Brussels hub is very important and I think it does really good work in Brussels and has throughout the very difficult Brexit years of maintaining relationships building relationships as the UK mission has to in general post-Brexit finding out what's going on, sharing intelligence obviously with UK colleagues but as I said earlier in terms of the Northern Ireland protocol despite the current fractious discussion that can cut through some of the work and help the officials and Government see what's coming up but because there's so much you nonetheless as a Parliament I would say need to be very clear from the Scottish Government how they are sifting that what the priority areas are what the overall balance looks like not only and it mustn't be simply through technically whether that's being done through the keeping case legislation if there's a general Scottish Government aimed to align with a rolling amount of EU legislation through whatever means they should be reporting to you on that overall with full transparency but to me your question raises a wider question that's not only a question of aligning with or keeping pace with legislation where is the big strategic direction of the EU going what from your point of view or Scottish Government's point of view are the top 5 or 10 issues and if we're trying to think about having the best possible European strategy which of those top 5 or 10 issues can the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament through the inter-parliamentary relations best deal with so I think there's issues around the aligning there are big issues around the general Scotland, Europe and Scotland international relations and then there's the question of the Scottish Government, UK Government and inter-parliamentary relations in the context of this rather brave new post Brexit world and the world of the trade and co-operation agreement I think the message again today is that much more needs to be done there needs to be new or reformed or revised structures to improve that UK Scotland Scotland co-ordination and to ensure Scotland whether parliamentary or Government has a real voice and real appropriate access to different bodies and that's not a small thing it's a rather big thing that's a really helpful answer thanks very much can I say thank you very much to our panel this morning Dr Hughes, Dr Marats and Professor Pitta that's been a really informative session by way of information we will be taking evidence on the 16th of December from the Scotland House in Brussels, London and Berlin hubs to add to our consideration of this inquiry and also as a committee we have undertaken to continue a committee engagement with the presidency of the EU as it changes as the committee has done when we were a member state going forward but that concludes our session or an inquiry into Scottish Government's international work this morning we now move to consideration of the draft report on the continuity act draft policy statement I close the public session of this meeting