 Council, would the clerk please read the quote for this evening? Yes, dear. Hey, I don't think so. I've learned that people may forget what you said, people may forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. Thank you very much. Please stand and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. The next item on the agenda is approval of the minutes from our meeting on October 17th, older person Donahue. Thank you, Mayor. I move to approve. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on the minutes? Seeing none, all those in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion passes. Next, we'll move on to resignations. City Attorney. First resignation is from Pete Streisich, who is resigning from the Board of Appeals, the Architectural Review Board, and the Contractors Examining Board. The other resignation is from Jake Toman, who is resigning from the Business Improvement District Board. Thank you very much, older person Donahue. Thank you. I move to accept and file. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. All those in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion passes. Next, move on to Mayor's Appointments. City Attorney. First, submitting the following appointment for your consideration. Paul Rudnick to be considered for appointment to the Schwoigensquared Bid Board to fill the unexpired term of Jake Toman, whose term expires on December 31, 2016. Second, submitting the following appointment for your consideration. Michael van der Steen and Chad Peleshek to be considered for appointment to the Schwoigens Area Tourism Commission for the term January 1, 2017 to 12, 3117. And third, submitting the following appointment for your consideration. Alec Bartoli to be considered for appointment to the Sustainable Schwoigens Task Force, whose term expires on April 23, 2017. It says 16, but I'm sure it means 17. Thank you. And those will lie over until the next meeting. There's no other appointments to be confirmed at this meeting. Next, we'll move on to a presentation of the community survey that was done recently by City Administrator Darryl Hoffland. Thank you, Mayor. Included in your packet for this week. The Alders received a narrative summary of the 2016 community questionnaire. Tonight I put together a PowerPoint presentation so that you can maybe understand some of the fine points of the survey and ultimately for the folks that are seeing this over cable or on demand. Again, the purpose for the community survey was to gain an understanding of the views and preferences of the citizens. Survey was completed using SurveyMonk and online survey instrument. Of the citizens who are 18 or older, we receive a response of 717 or roughly 2%, assuming randomness. The responses equate to 95% certainty with a 4% plus or minus error, a margin of error. For an outreach plan for the community survey, again, this is the first survey done in many years. Community message boards, cable studio, city websites, social media, shoreline metro buses, private billboards, local newspaper articles, local radio station promotion. Public library had paper copies in case residents did not have access to the internet and then a booth at the Hmong Festival at Kiwanis Park. To summarize the typical 2016 community survey respondent, it was a female, it was a homeowner, it was someone who had lived in the city of Sheboygan for 25 plus years. I think good news for all of us, 74% of the survey participants indicated that their quality of life in Sheboygan was either good or excellent. As far as the direction of the city, 57% identified that it was improving or holding steady. When asked what was the best thing about living in Sheboygan, Lake Michigan was identified by 43%, a wide margin. SurveyMonkey has what's called a response cloud, and so this one we're visually showing some of the key words that were used and some of the responses. But when asked, one thing that was of most concern to the survey takers or participants, the top three responses were 25% identified drugs, 24% identified crime, and 9% identified streets, street related matters. Regarding the city's performance, overall performance, either good or excellent, 62% responded with either of those two answers. Other performance related questions, managing taxpayer dollars, again, as you can see on the bar charts, somewhere between fair and good on keeping citizens informed, pretty close to good on average, delivering services efficiently. Again, good would be the average response, and then focusing on priorities between fair and good was the average answer. Another city performance related issue was named the top five important city services, police services, number one, and then the rest of the top five, street maintenance, paving, fire services, snow plowing and ice control, and emergency medical services. In regards to the top city services, the top five were fire services, EMS, police services, library services, and finally quality of water. In rating the top five city departments, me library came out number one, then the fire department, police department, number four was water utility, and five coming in was senior activity center. A question was included in the survey in regards to how satisfied are you with your shopping options. Unfortunately, only 40% identified very satisfied or satisfied. 60% identified dissatisfied or very dissatisfied. Personal safety was another category that was discussed. 92% of the survey participants responded that they felt very safe or safe in their neighborhoods during the day. 59% responded they felt very safe or safe in their neighborhoods after dark. When asked for their reasons of concern after dark, drugs, crime, and streets were the top three common words that were included in this open-ended question. Infrastructure, how satisfied are they with their neighborhoods, streets, sidewalks, or landscaping? 54% responded very satisfied or somewhat satisfied. Communication. We asked what are the top five ways in which you receive information about the city of Sheboygan? Number one was Sheboygan Press, 76%. Next was the website, 66. Sheboygan Sun, 46. WHBL Radio, 43. And the social media next door, 30%. Based on the survey responses, the top five reasons residents chose Sheboygan as a place to live. Number one was they're native of Sheboygan, or family and friends are here. Near employment, number three was low crime rate, four was the cost of housing or their apartment, and five is proximity to Lake Michigan. We had a couple more questions. The next one is funding sources for services. How best to raise funds associated with rising costs in the city? And the number one response was use a combination of increased property taxes and user fees. That came in at 41%. The second highest response was increase user fees and charges, but do not increase property taxes. The third highest response was increase property taxes, do not increase user fees, and the last option or lowest response given was to actually to cut services. We had an opening to question, asking people to share anything with us. Again, this is one of those survey clouds. The larger the font, the more often that word was used. If you can sort of see it, parks, taxes, streets and roads were the largest. Again, if anyone wants to see those results, contact Chad's office if you want more details. Again, the survey, if you recall, was done in July. In August, you participated in a retreat along with the management team. This survey information was provided prior to that retreat. The results of the retreat, as staff has been working hard on developing some of the concepts identified, if you recall, we had little stickers. And the most frequently identified areas or issues, they will be discussed within the next month. And again, you'll be back along with the management team. Citizens will be invited to attend as well. And so we look forward to a community of the whole, possibly the second Monday in the month of December. For the survey itself, in order to maybe entice some folks to participate, we offered a $100 gift certificate, a chamber cash gift certificate. Lisa Welton was the lucky winner. Van der Steen had a chance to meet her. She identified that she's going to be donating $100 to a local food pantry, so very, very fitting. So congratulations, Lisa. With that, it concludes my PowerPoint slides. Any questions or comments? One person, Trester. Can you tell me from the amount of people that entered the survey or used the survey in comparison to the population explain? You know, we're close to 50,000, of which identified roughly 39, I'm sorry, 38,500 are 18 or older. That's what our audience was geared toward. Again, we received 717. So a low response. The hope is that in the future it will continue to build, but the first time around was low. Other person, Schneider? Anyone else? Thank you very much. Thank you. Next item on the agenda is the public forum. First on our list this evening is Dane Shaper. Dane, are you here? Dane, if you could give me your home address, please. Yes, it's 3728 South 13th Street. Thank you, and you will have five minutes. All right. Thank you. Hello, my name is Dane Shaper. I'm here today to talk, sorry, here today to talk to you guys about the proposed ordinance regarding paraphernalia and shabuigan. I'm the owner of the Epicure Lounge, the Hookah Bar on Michigan Avenue. I've been assured that my business will be safe in regards to this law. However, I still have some concerns about this ordinance and its language in general that I'm hoping to have cleared up before it is adopted. This ordinance has been presented to myself and the public as a moving of the language from the Wisconsin state statutes to shabuigan's books. I've read both the state law as well as the proposed ordinance side by side, and while they are in fact similar, there have been changes made and omissions in the language. I brought a copy of both the Wisconsin statutes and the proposed ordinance with changes between them highlighted. I'd read them for you, but I really don't want to put you guys to sleep. I'd rather you hear what I have to say. So I'll start here with Alderperson Herman and if you guys want to take a look and pass me on. One change that I will point out directly is that in the Wisconsin statutes there's an exemption for, and this is now a quote, any items including pipes, papers, and accessories that are designed for the use or primarily intended for use with tobacco products. As far as I can tell, that language is completely omitted from the proposed ordinance. I've asked for clarification about these changes and I've only been told that the law will not affect my business and that we are just moving the language from the state to the city, but I've never had the changes acknowledged nor have I had my concerns about them addressed. We've been told this change is being made to clarify the law and make it easier to follow. I understand the desire to clarify laws, however it seems that state laws being adopted by Sheboygan seems to be common practice. In fact with a quick search of our ordinances here in Sheboygan I found at least 13 other places where we straight up adopt a Wisconsin statue regarding a specific subject. Why then have we decided to start to put everything in one place now and why with this law specifically? Why even go through all of this trouble for something that we've been told won't really have an effect at all? The ordinance has also been presented as something that will not affect policing since the language is the same as what we are currently governed by and it's just being relocated. However I have had conversations with other local business owners that claim their businesses have been visited recently by officers who have told them that once this ordinance passes they will be issuing citations for the glass pipes that these places were selling. If the law changes and nothing, if the law changes nothing and policing will be the same why does it seem that our local law enforcement thinks otherwise? I'm here today to simply seek clarification. I'm asking that the city be open and transparent with its citizens the way that this ordinance has been presented and what seems to be the case do not line up. If our goal is to mirror the language from the state then the language should be the exact same, yet it isn't. If on the other hand the language changes are necessary to serve a purpose I'm simply asking what that purpose is. Why has the language changed? If you know the answer to this simple question please share it with the public so that we may be more clear on what is being accomplished with this ordinance. If however like me you're unsure why these changes were necessary because it has been presented to you as a copy and paste from the Wisconsin law it should go without saying that this ordinance cannot be passed in its current state without first addressing the reason for the language changes. Thank you very much for your time and I hope you can help me clarify the purpose of the ordinance and the changes in the language. Thank you, Dean. Next on the list is Tobi Watson. Tobi, can I have your home address please? Sure. It's 403 Lakewood Court in Kohler, Wisconsin. You'll have five minutes. Hi. For those of you that don't know me my name is Dr. Tobi Watson. I've been in business here in Sheboygan specifically down here on A Street for the past 20, about 25 years now. I occupy about 17 of the storefronts on downtown A Street. We have numerous properties you know throughout that we've worked with the city on successfully. The last gentleman that just came up and asked the question why is this being proposed and the proposal as discussed at certain meetings and within certain crowds was because they wanted to combine ordinances and keep them into one place. If that was the case I would be maybe supportive of that combining the ordinances and keeping them together I think that makes a lot of sense. Other reasons why we often put ordinances here in the city is to have tax dollars stay here locally in Sheboygan. Sometimes we do that to help the court system in the circuit court if they're overburdened with court and we want to use our municipal court we can do that as well. Certain communities have decriminalized marijuana usage ordinances to what we have which would be another purpose to keep it again more local. However, this ordinance was not presented and proposed for any of those reasons. This ordinance was proposed for one reason and one reason only. When one of my tenants wanted to come into the downtown area a phone call was made once city development realized that this tenant was going to operate illegal business but a business where certain products could be used for certain purposes. And it was for that reason that a call was made to one of the alderman to propose this ordinance and to say we need to have this ordinance. That is why we're concerned because we're hearing a different story now that we're just combining laws or ordinances together. If that was the case we wouldn't be so concerned and you wouldn't have shop owners coming. But when a shop owner then sees that the proposed ordinance is a different language but is being told it's the same we get concerned because we know that in other communities they adopted similar ordinances in order to do selective policing where they had some vague laws which is the statute in Wisconsin it's very vague on what constitutes drug paraphernalia and how they interpret that law. I don't believe that we should adopt an ordinance that already is based on Wisconsin law that is vague. There are concerns about that Wisconsin statute I think we should address those at the state level first get those clarified and then maybe adopt an ordinance that makes much more reasonable sense. My concern is that if we adopt this ordinance in its form with the omissions that have been omitted from the actual state statute it could open up Pandora's box where we will have selective policing where they make an educated guess of what they think drug paraphernalia will not be. Certain shop owners may be allowed to sell certain items where other shops won't be able to. Hudson Wisconsin did something very similar and they ended up having cases there cost their community over $50,000 according to the attorney that was involved in that case. I'd hate to see my tax dollars which I'm paying a lot of for a lot of these downtown businesses and property used to deter business from coming to downtown. The shops already open and they haven't had any police involvement, they haven't had anybody come down there to even look at their store yet but the concern that at least a lot of shop owners have that sell similar products and people that are libertarians like myself is that we are adopting an ordinance which could be used to criminalize or at least cite people who are selling a legal product and they're going to be told that they're selling an illegal product even though they don't really know what a customer may or may not do in the future. I appreciate the time. Thank you. And last on our list is Tammy Wood. Tammy, if you want to come on up. Tammy, could you give us your home address please? It's W-10880 Creechy Road in Elroy, Wisconsin. Okay, and you will have five minutes. Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity for me to stand here and strongly urge you not to adopt this ordinance. I am a smoke shop owner from Reedsburg, Wisconsin and Baraboo, Wisconsin just recently attempted to enact this ordinance. And when they did, I did a lot of research. I, as Dr. Watson, looked into the Hudson case when they enacted the same ordinance. It's verbatim, the same ordinance that they enacted in Hudson. The day after they enacted it, they raided that smoke shop and then a month after that they raided that smoke shop. This did cost the city money. Now during the municipal court hearings, both smoke shops were found guilty. However, in circuit court all these cases were dismissed. This cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for the city of Hudson. In Manitowoc, Wisconsin, this ordinance, this same ordinance was adopted, this redraft. And the next day they went into the smoke shops, the businesses that donate to your communities. They employ people. They are vital. And they're here because there's also your citizens are shopping there. They patronize these businesses. And within 30 days, the smoke shop in Manitowoc has to get rid of all of its inventory. You're closing legitimate businesses for an unnecessary change. What we have right now with the Wisconsin State Law says that if these pipes are used criminally then they're against the law. But what this is doing is this is turning rebuttable presumption on its head and it's requiring that the citizens now have to provide proof that they're innocent instead of the burden being on the officer having to provide proof that this is being used for illegal purposes. What you're doing is you're preemptively deciding that the citizens of your city have intent to commit crimes. And that's just not the case. These pieces of art are first of all protected underneath the U.S. patents. You're not going to grant a United States patent to something that is illegal. They are pieces of art that people collect. And the way these ordinances read is it kind of arbitrarily gives the police leeway to decide whether you're breaking the law or you're not. Some of the examples that is used is past drug possession. How far away is that? Is it a 20-year past drug possession? Because in Wisconsin, second offense cannabis possession is a felony regardless of what was 20 years prior. So if someone 20 years ago had a possession and has a clean pipe that they can use for a plethora of legal herbal smoking blends, then they're guilty. What you're doing is you're criminalizing citizens before that they've committed any law. You're putting the taxpayer citizens on notice that they're going to have to litigate these things because they're violating citizens. When I'm fined for something that I haven't broken the law for, I'm going to take that to court. And in fact, many of the smoke shops that have found these ordinances coming and have spoke with the ACLU, you don't want an ordinance that isn't necessary taking the city of Chicago again and putting its name on a Supreme Court ruling. This is a violation of citizens' rights. It is a violation of citizens' rights. I would ask you respectfully not to enact this redraft. Thank you. Thank you, Tammy. That's it. Thank you very much. Next item is Mayor's announcements. Tonight I have the pleasure of recognizing one of our local businesses that's been in operation for 125 years. I'd like to ask Matt Quaschus and Steve Woods to come over to the presentation. Whereas the Quaschus Construction Company was formed in 1891 by Patriarch George Quaschus. And whereas the genesis of the business was founded upon residential services through the building of many of Sheboygan's quality homes of the era. And whereas over the years George refocused the business building upon the company's vast experience with commercial and industrial construction services. And whereas in the 1930s Quaschus Sons, Arthur Raymond and Leslie joined the firm which was renamed Quaschus and Sons and initiated the construction of light commercial and industrial buildings. And whereas later as the Quaschus Brothers the company broadened into a regional construction company responding to the challenges of the retail market. Quaschus constructed 40 retail stores for the H.C. Prange Company over a three-state area while as completing extensive renovation of the American Club. And whereas the third generation took the reins as Raymond Quaschus Jr. and David Quaschus headed the company. Under the leadership of David the company was renamed Quaschus Construction Incorporated. And whereas the success of Quaschus Construction building relationships since 1891 is what has poised current President Matt Quaschus here. I now therefore Mike Van der Steen is mayor of the city of Shboygan to hereby proclaim that the city of Shboygan expresses its best wishes to Quaschus Construction Incorporated on the occasion of its 125th anniversary. And we also look forward to Matt's current project of remodeling and restoring the old Keekley furniture store on A Street into their new corporate offices. Matt, happy to present this to you. I'd like to say a few words. I'd be happy to. When you asked me to speak about each year in our company history I was kind of surprised and I thought I'd maybe shrink that down a little bit. Again, thank you very much. It's really a privilege to be part of a 125 year legacy in a family business. When I first came back to Shboygan in 2003 one of the interesting things they learned about Quaschus Construction was our general contractors license number was number six. I had to take the general contractors exam and I got 2018 was my number. So a couple of things have changed since then. Our first shop actually was on 15th Street just north of Superior and that shop housed a horse named Daisy and a foot-powered saw on the second floor with no running water and no electricity. We've come a long way since that and in 125 years our move down to 8th Street the old Keekley building will actually be only our third office for that whole time. It's really a privilege to be part of this history. Steve's been with me with the company for 31 years and me for 13 since I've been back in Shboygan and we just want to say thank you very much for everything the city is doing to encourage development. We're excited to be part of it moving downtown and look forward to things to come. So thank you again. And I also like to thank Matt for stepping up and serving as a member of our Shboygan redevelopment authority. You may have noticed Chad sent out a lot of emails recently about the Leavitt amp concert program. The John Michael Kohler Art Center is again applying for a Leavitt amp grant so we can continue our Thursday night concerts in downtown Shboygan. So please go online and vote for us as many times as you can. I think it's limited to email addresses so if you have more than one email address feel free. Very important day is coming up tomorrow our election day. Our city clerk has worked very hard with her staff and all the volunteers to prepare for this. So please everybody get out there and vote. We appreciate those that came in early and early voted to reduce some of the lines at the polls and just so everybody remembers you have to bring an ID card with a photo ID. We need that in order to vote. And I also left a few copies of the articles that were written for the Shboygan press on your desk and also I was pleased to write a budget support letter for the budget that Administrator Darrell Hofflin put together and will be on the agenda for you to vote on tonight. The next item on the agenda is the hearing. Item 2.1 is the hearing on the vacation and discontinuance version of a paved alley between Sibley Court on the north Seaman Avenue on the south Calumet Drive on the east and Wyman on the west. Is there anyone who wishes to be heard? Is there anyone who wishes to be heard? Is there anyone who wishes to be heard? Alderperson Donahue. I would move to close the hearing. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. All those in favor of closing the hearing please signify by saying aye. Opposed? Motion passes. Next move on the consent agenda that will include items 3.2 through 3.31. Alderperson Donahue. I move to accept and file all reports of officers accept and adopt all reports of committees and pass all resolutions and ordinances. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on any of the items in the consent agenda? Seeing none will the clerk please call the roll for passage. 15 ayes. Motion passes. Item 4 is reports of officers. Items 4.1 through 4.3 will be referred to various committees. Next section. Alderperson Bellinger. Thank you. I've just got a question mayor on 4.1 should that not be going to public protection and safety rather than public works? Just wondering why it's going to public work. Yes that sounds fine. We'll make that adjustment. Thank you. Okay so number 4.1 we'll go to public protection and safety. Alderperson John. That's fine mayor I was just going to make a comment but that's fine. Alderperson Robbie. This matter has already been taken up with David Bebel signs that will be installed that will be flashing and we've already discussed with attorney Chuck Adams the next steps after this. Okay well it's still going to go to the committee and I'll have to come back and be referred but it's good to hear that that's been addressed early. Next under resolutions items 5.1 and 5.2 will be referred to various committees under reports of committees. Item 6.1 is an RC by Alderperson Bellinger. The room was referred general ordinance number 24 of 1617 by Alderperson Bellinger repealing and recreating article 4 of chapter 30 in the municipal code relating to the sales of drugs paraphernalia and repealing and recreating section 70-8 of the municipal code entitled adoption of state law regarding controlled substances and recommends that the ordinance be passed. Alderperson Holschew. Committee be accepted and adopted. Second. We have a motion and a second. Under discussion. We had a meeting and had a number of people that came and chatted and one of the purposes they had asked why do we do this and one of the purposes was that on not our last Hold the mic up. Not our last meeting but two previous meetings we had had a fellow coming in to get bartender's license and he had exhibited some major concerns of there being some drug paraphernalia in the different convenience stores. So trying to understand that whole mythology and why that was all happening this transpired according to our city attorney. This ordinance that we are creating does no more or no less than our state statute already says. So if we didn't pass it the same laws would be in place at this time. We're just trying to get all the different areas seems to be all over the board in one place in one ordinance. I'm assured that our statute that we're going to be hopefully adopting this evening mirrors the state statute and I can refer to city attorney to validate that but our whole committee agreed that we should be passing this and I'm hoping that we have the support of everyone here. Thank you. Thank you for those comments. Turn to the city attorney if you can validate that for the group. I reviewed the ordinance. I didn't draft this particular ordinance. It did come from Ligo Wisconsin Municipalities a number of other municipalities that believe that it is in essence adopting the state statute as we already do that there are no changes. I do not believe in fact we have the authority to make changes to the state law and I can tell you that our policy as far as prosecuting these things will not change as a result of whether you pass or do not pass this tonight. Thank you very much. Next Alderman is Alderperson Boren. Thank you, Mayor. Any questions? I don't know if they came up at the committee or not. Have these types of devices been a problem in Sheboygan? Have there been a lot of citations issued? And did the police department give their opinion on this proposed ordinance at the meeting? Alderperson Halshew. Thank you. We did have discussion regarding different pieces of artwork but I would like to call upon if I could open the floor to our Chief of Police. Sure. Chief Domigolski, would you like to come forward and respond to that question? The Chief did attend that last law and licensing committee meeting. Sure. I didn't share an opinion at the meeting. I don't think it matters. We already adopt the state statute. This is just spelling out what it says in the ordinance. We're going to enforce it the same way as we have in the past. As the city attorney said, if we try to enforce it and he doesn't want to prosecute it, it's not going to get prosecuted. Anything else, Alderperson Boren? If I could just follow up, Chief. Have you had a problem in Sheboygan with this type of product? Have there been any citations and have they been prosecuted? I would say that we arrest people quite frequently for possession of drug paraphernalia. We haven't had a big problem with it in our shops. Mostly because of the way that we do things in that we're looking for voluntary compliance with drug paraphernalia laws just like we are for everything else. If we get a complaint like we did at the law and licensing meeting about a month ago, we go out and inspect the shops. We don't want to get a complaint that they shouldn't have in there. We explain to them they shouldn't have in there. Give them a chance to comply with the law and if they don't, then we enforce it. Thank you. Next, Alderperson Jose? Thank you, Mayor. I'm going to vote against this ordinance for several reasons. But, you know, I have a fancy pipe that I bought in Mexico. It's not one of the glass ones. If I smoked out of the glass pipe, it might crack or I might drop it or something like that. I got a nice ceramic pipe I bought in Mexico in Acapulco that I used to smoke tobacco. Those who are my close friends know that on the Monday nights we don't have council about this time you'd find me at the Olive and Ashen Collar either smoking a pipe or smoking a cigar. But smoking things that are very legal to smoke out of a pipe. I think that this ordinance is necessary and Dr. Watson did mention two reasons that we adopt the local ordinance that's similar to the state ordinance. It can lower the burden on the circuit court by shifting some of the caseload to the administrative court, the municipal court and it can raise revenues for the city by the city collecting those fines instead of the county or the state fines that go through the circuit court. But I have to Mr. Schaefer I have to agree with him they're not the same. The city attorney says but I can read and what's proposed in the ordinance is not the same as what's in the state statute. There have been additional words added and if the purpose is truly to mirror the state statute then that's what should be done. So I'm in favor of voting this ordinance down tonight and if Alderman Belger or someone else wants to, if it truly the purpose is to mirror the state statute, if they want to resubmit an ordinance that exactly mirrors the state statute I would support that ordinance relying on the promise of the chief of police that there's not going to be some new kind of enforcement against these businessmen that are selling the products legitimately and making at least a portion of their livelihood on it. Thank you for those comments. Other person holds you. Thank you Mays from here. Well with that being said and with there being question whether or not our ordinance is word by word verbiage to the state I'm wondering if it is at all possible I can refer this back to committee to make certain that this ordinance is a mirror image of the state statute and for the purpose that it's intended to encapsulate and close in all the pieces you certainly can make that motion I would like to make that motion to send it back to committee. We have a motion in a second to refer this back to the law and licensing committee is there any discussion on that motion All the person wolf did you have one no okay Seeing none all those in favor please signify by saying aye. Opposed. Motion passes this will be referred back to the law and licensing committee next is item 6.2 which is an RC by the finance committee who is referred resolution number 119 of 1617 by Alderman Wolfe establishing a debt management policy to maintain the city's outstanding general obligation debt at 60% of the city's debt limit and recommends that the resolution be passed all the person wolf Thank you mayor and make a motion to accept and adopt and pass resolution. Thank you for that motion second and the support that's before you now for discussion seeing no discussion with a clerk please call the roll. Motion passes item 6.3 is an RC by finance to whom was referred resolution number 118 of 1617 by Alderman Wolfe amending the capital improvement program for the program period 2017 through 2021 and adopting the program for implementation and recommends that the resolution be passed along with the amendment to the capital improvements program all the person wolf thank you mayor make a motion to accept and adopt and pass resolution second thank you for that motion and support is there any discussion on the motion all the person bellinger. Thank you mayor I'm going to oppose this I think again as I stated earlier I'm here to review the resolution. I'm here to review the resolution both irresponsible and reckless of this level of borrowing if you look at the document the document says that we're going to originally we were going to borrow 6.3 million dollars and now we are looking at borrowing 5 million dollars but if you look further in the included documents it's got on to the general obligation that the borrowing for that so if you were to take the just the five million dollar borrowing that's a 66 percent increase over what we're used to spending annually and if you take the nine million dollars that's a 200 percent increase over what we're used to spending and if you look at the five-year plan five-year capital plan it's got some kind of staggering figures here it looks like the five-year capital plan has 31 million dollars worth of borrowing in the next five years under the last five years the previous five years we had a city administrator in Jim Motio and president of the council Don Hammond who kind of led us down a direction in a fiscally responsible manner to get our debt down from 67 million dollars down to 33 or 34 million dollars where it's at today taking and adopting this plan is going to bring us right back into the 60 million dollar you know high 50s you know low 60 million dollar debt that we just are trying to recover from so that's why I'm against it I think it's again reckless and irresponsible and I would encourage my fellow alderman to support me in not passing this thank you thank you for those comments Alder person down to you thank you mayor I if appropriate I think if the city administrator could respond to some of those allegations city administrator thank you the the five-year cap improvement plan before you does as Alder Bellinger identified does increase annually the amount of general obligation debt to be issued on the floor of the Common Council approximately I think a month ago there was a compromise identified by Alder feel to cap it at five million dollars from the six point three that previously was recommended by finance the amount correctly as Alder Bellinger identified the document before you does identify an additional four million for half the cost associated with a new City Hall in 17 and another four million in 18 you should subtract out that eight million dollars the average amount over the five years is roughly is roughly four point seven so it does stay under the five million dollars that was discussed here a month ago the city does have a low level of current general obligation debt even better the the repayment period in most of the debt is roughly ten years or less so the repayment period is very aggressive because of that aggressiveness even though the city is issuing new debt a lot of debt is being paid off so the result is a lower net cost at the end of the five years so even though roughly 31 million of new debt is identified at the at that same period of time the actual amount of debt is not going to be as high as as Alder Bellinger identified that the city at one point was up to six point was up to 67 million the borrowing again represents funding many projects that were recommended by each of the committee commissions or boards again they've been consolidated into this five-year cap improvement it was also supported by the finance committee thank you very much is there any other discussion all their person down to you I just I'm going to support this for a variety of reasons and I've spoken on this a number of times on the floor I I guess I'm I'm needing to challenge the perspective that what we are doing is reckless I do think that we can disagree about the amount of money that the city should borrow in order to keep its house in order but I don't think that there is anything about that this about this that is reckless so I understand that there is a four million dollar charge for City Hall in this coming year's budget another four million we can subtract all of that and we can just continue to let City Hall disintegrate like we have year after year after year because we're not willing to take the responsibility and sometimes the political heat for making improvements we need to make improvements as we go along I looked at that you know what's been pushed off into 2018 and 2019 and 2020 and I understand why we're doing that but we need to understand this going to cost more when we get around to it interest rates are historic lows and for us not to be taking advantage of that and to be putting off needed repairs until another time and another time and I suppose some of us are thinking maybe another council and I won't have to be responsible for voting for that I just don't think that we should do that so I I do I understand that people can certainly degree disagree about debt levels I'm just this is not reckless and irresponsible it really isn't in fact I think it's really quite the opposite thank you for those comments alder person wolf thank you mayor I hate to beat the drum of you know pretty much the same subject that we've been talking about for for many many months I'm tired of hearing about the reckless and was irresponsible because I think as good stewards the older persons here and in the past have done a great job trying to watch money trying to watch our budgets and we do try to keep the house fiscally sound but I also want to point out if if anybody hasn't realized that that in several of our meetings capital improvements it was defined that we had a three million dollar cap and with cost of living since 1997 we should be spending five million dollars so it's been since 1997 correct me if I'm wrong that we have been not spending what we should be to keep the city and keep our infrastructure from deteriorating so when we talk about roads and we drive around and wonder what's rattling and it's our teeth and when we drive around and we look at buildings that the city owns that are falling apart and we wonder why the finance department has buckets collecting water from the rain we can say that we're being fiscally sound or we can say we're being reckless because we're not taking care of things so I'm going to be voting for this this is a plan it's a budget doesn't mean that it's not going to change next year or the year after but like older person Donahue said money is cheap right now and it would be fiscally irresponsible to not borrow when the when the interest rate is good we have a good bond rating we have a good bond issue going on with our with our double a to and we have a lot of things to fix in the city of Sheboygan to be fiscally sound that's all thank you for those comments older person Bellinger thank you mayor I just like to correct something that Alderman Wolf just spoke to and that is if you index for inflation we should not be borrowing five million dollars I think it was stated at the finance committee meeting that if you take into account that ordinance and you index for inflation it should be four point five million dollars so we're in excess of what we should be borrowing if you use that logic and in my other point is is that we also have 18 million dollars in the general fund that is unassigned and can be used to pay for part of city hall or all of city hall we've got money we haven't turned it back to the taxpayers it you know we've been good stewards of in the past but now we're looking at you know in five years doubling our debt normally we borrow three million dollars a year five years that's 15 million dollars under this plan we're going over you know over you know double that 31 million dollars so I do think it's reckless and irresponsible and I do think there's other ways to pay for things within the city using the unassigned fund balances that we have you know already existing thank you for those comments all the person Jose thank you mr. mayor I'm gonna join Alderman Belliger and voting against this I think a wonderful thing happened after Governor Walker came on the scene and past act 10 I'm sure a lot of city officials and city administrators a lot of politicians at different levels of the government all over the state don't like act 10 because it forced me to force municipalities to tighten their belts it forced it forced many of us to find different ways to create fees or because we can't raise taxes as much as we want to but I think it's a fantastic thing and I think a lot of the a lot of the politicians or spend thrifts they think there's a magic money tree and and the at the root of it is the American taxpayer and we can just we can just leech more and leech more every year leech more off of the American taxpayer and quite frankly with the economy which has not recovered in the last eight years people have not got the money to to spend more for for pet projects and things like that I know what I know what the spin spin thrift people think is they're opening they're hoping that the next election is gonna come along another governor and they're gonna reverse act 10 and those restraints are gonna come off but I hope they don't I hope that was restraints stay in place and we're forced to continue tightening our belts and I have to agree it we it's a colossal increase in spending if we got some money in the funds we should go there first and I'm gonna vote against this budget thank you for those comments Alderperson Donahue I need to disagree on a variety of levels first of all here in the city of Sheboygan we are not spend thrift politicians I will note for the record and we can say this over and over again basically the tax levy rate in this city has not increased since 2005 in other words most of our taxpayers are paying the same levy rate that they paid in 2005 there are very few entities where you can go and say gee my cost of living hasn't gone up to we are not increasing the tax levy in any way whatsoever because of this proposed capital improvements budget we really need to get that into our heads now maybe there are spend thrift politicians in in Madison depends on your definition of spendthrift you know what the real spendthrift thing and we went through this in a previous administration is when you start talking about rating reserve funds Alder Bellinger would have difficulty with that I believe because that is a key piece of our AA bond rating we have very healthy reserves now this is not to say that those reserves should never be looked at in the poor purposes of the city hall for example we may want to we may want to responsibly withdraw some money from the reserves in order to reduce our borrowing for city hall but if we start going down the road of saying let's just empty out our savings account we are not being fiscally responsible we're being spendthrift it's like if we were at home and saying you know let's just empty out our savings account and and instead of you know doing this or doing that and we can't do that so I so I reject the the label of reckless and I'm also rejecting the label of of losing my earring and I am rejecting the label of spendthrift not true not true so I think I think we just need to get this done it's it's reasonable I think we can go forward with it I just I think it's the responsible thing to do thank you for those additional comments Alderperson Jose well the the Alderperson Donahue's comments are a little bit disingenuous because it's a little bit of the shell game they're gonna tell the taxpayers we're not increasing the levy so per dollar you're not gonna pay any more in taxes but everybody knows if you borrow money eventually the mortgage has to be paid so you the the the the debt being put upon the taxpayers is gonna either have to be paid by those that are paying taxes now or their children or their grandchildren so it's if you're if you're spending money more money you're spending more money and to say that it's it's it's there's not a magic money tree this money that's borrowed someday has to be paid back and to say that you're that you're not increasing the tax we it's it makes you look like oh good we're not gonna spend anything we're not increasing you the taxpayers burden but you put your pushing it down the road and everybody knows it's it's it's it's the spending shell game thank you for those comments seeing no other lights the clerk please call the roll for passage on six point three correct yes thank you eight eyes seven nose motion passes item six point four is RC by finance to whom was referred resolution number 117 of 1617 by Alder person Wolf establishing the 2017 budget appropriations and the 2016 tax levy for use in the calendar year and recommends approving the resolution with the attached amended 2017 budgets summary Alder person Wolf thank you mayor I make a motion to accept and adopt second thanks for that motion in support under discussion all the person boring thank you mayor I've got a I've got some problems with the with the budget and the ones that the two that I talked about at the finance committee meeting where were the the collections for the municipal court which are being I believe budgeted about $80,000 less and my understanding is that's because there are less citations and possibly a difference in philosophy in the judge that we have now compared to the last judge for those of you I've been around a long time and I was here when we before we had the municipal court and before we had the municipal court the city of Sheboygan received approximately four hundred and four hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a year from the county for doing nothing I understand the the advantages to having a municipal court on cutting back on police over time having to sit over at the at the county court and expediting some of our municipal citations but we're we're downgrading those collections and as I said at one time we were getting four hundred and twenty five thousand dollars to doing nothing and now we have this bureaucracy of a municipal court where our collections are not even coming close to what we used to get from the county for doing nothing and I understand the citations the municipal citations would be on the bottom of the pile over there at at the circuit court we do still get some dollars for the county from the county on some of these citations that are not adjudicated at the municipal court and they end up over at the circuit court my other concern is that the ambulance collections for next year are being reduced from the original budget by about two hundred and twenty five thousand dollars the ambulance services I believe grossing about three point three million dollars a year in calls and the collections are being downgraded next year to one point two million dollars a reduction of of two hundred and twenty five thousand dollars it's kind of ironic that the that in the budget that the the three new firefighter paramedics that are proposed to be hired those come in at about seventy five thousand dollars a person per firefighter paramedic or around two hundred and twenty five thousand dollars the chief also wants a new battalion chief and I would imagine that person is going to come in at around ninety five thousand dollars all in with salary and benefits you know had not had not the municipal court collections been downgraded or the or the ambulance service collections be downgraded that would have probably been enough to cover the salaries and benefits of those three people but as a result of those collection downgrades that money of the two hundred and twenty five for the three new firefighters and the new battalion chief are going to have to come out of out of general fund revenues and that money could have been used for something else so those are those are my biggest beast of this budget and I guess we have to ask ourselves the question and I understand the revenue the revenue that we are getting from the ambulance service is helpful we've been waiting for 18 months for this fire chief and his administration to come through with a plan that was ordered by our former city administrator and it seems like waiting us out and waiting for the new city administrator he's getting everything he asked for and more and I guess the bucks the buck has to stop somewhere on the on these revenue producing things that the city has in municipal court and the and the ambulance service and don't get me wrong we're providing an excellent ambulance service that's never been the question it's always been the finances and I think it's time for our fire chief and his management team to step up to the plate and give us a plan of a long-term plan for the fire department that we requested 18 months ago we got a very good product out of the union and I appreciate that but that's only one side of the story when are we going to get this plan that we asked for 18 months ago from the fire chief and his administration it's about time thank you for those comments older person Donahue thank you mayor I would suggest that the place to talk about long-term to consider whether or not municipal court is a good fit for us would be apart from the budget process I think there are pluses and minuses to municipal court and I think we can look at it in a little more detail I've wanted to do that for quite a long time just to really examine what the real costs are and what the benefits are and so forth and I think it's a complicated question it's a good thing to talk about but I think for the purposes of our budget today it it it's not a reason to vote against the budget in terms of ambulance services I think we just need to realize that fire services are one of the basic services we do provide and we need to do a good job of it whether we make a profit at it or not it's certainly consideration but it can't be the only those are just two responses that I would make and then I just want to say and I don't know how all of you feel but I want to just a personal thank you to our chief administrator Darryl Hofflin and of course to Nancy bus and the people in finance I've always felt kind of apart from the budget process you know we get 30 pages and we vote yay or nay so it's been I was just very pleased to get to get a three-ring binder but I I really learned a lot through the whole process and was really able to look deep into things not that we become micromanagers but we don't become a rubber stamp and I think that this new process has been very very helpful and I know that Darryl and Nancy and staff worked on it like crazy and so I just want to say I think we're in a really good position in a positive way to move forward as to how we do one of the most important things we do which is look at the budget thank you for those comments or any other comments on the budget other person Bellinger thank you mayor I'm disappointed in the budget and I don't want to take away for any of the work that any of the people did in the department heads but the overall final product you know I'm disappointed for some of the same reasons that alderman-born has previously mentioned and in the excessive borrowing binge that we're about to go and undertake for the next five years so you know that's why I'm disappointed I'm also disappointed that there hasn't been any additional cost savings brought forth last year we outsourced the assessor's office and received some significant cost savings you know with that due to early retirement I know that the town of Wilson's having issues with their fire department that we thought about doing a regional fire service you know offering that something similar to the North Shore of Milwaukee where they're saving millions of dollars every year on something like that you know we looked in the past at outsourcing garbage and in doing some different things I just think there needs to be some additional creative whether it's shared services doing something with the county or outsourcing you know privatizing you know things that we're already doing I'm trying to reduce our costs I think is what needs to be looked at and I don't really see any of that in this budget so and again it's not to downgrade any of the people that did all the work on it obviously there was a great deal of time and effort put into it but I wish there was a you know a better outcome and we saw some more significant savings than what we're seeing it seems like it's a status quo thank you any other discussion seeing none with a clerk please call the roll for passage eight eyes seven nose motion passes under ordinances items seven point one through seven point three will be referred to the public protection and safety committee under matters laid over eight point one is an RO number 125 of 1617 by the city planning commission to whom is referred general ordinance number 19 of 1617 by Alderman drone and Robbie and RO number 113 of 1617 by the city clerk for the vacation of a portion of the paved alley between Sibley court on the north Salmon Avenue on the south Calumet Drive on the east and Wyman Avenue on the west and recommends that the ordinance be passed all the person bellinger I move to accept and file and pass your ordinance second thank you for that motion and support is there any discussion on the motion seeing no discussion with a clerk please call the roll 15 eyes motion passes next we'll go on to other matters city attorney Adams nine point one is an RO by the fire chief submitting a quarterly report for the period commencing July 1 2016 ending September 30 2016 that will be referred to public protection and safety nine point two is an RO by the city clerks submitting a communication from Jared Raymond probation and parole agent on behalf of inmate Christopher Riley requesting a waiver to the sex offender residency restrictions that will be referred to public protection and safety nine point three is a resolution by all the person Donahue authorizing the creation of a shabuigan area room tax commission and tourism zone among the city of shabuigan town of shabuigan and town of Wilson that would be referred to the finance committee nine point four is an RO by the city clerk submitting a communication from the shabuigan area school district submitting the approved tax levy for the 2016 2017 school year that will lie over nine point five is an ordinance by all the person Donahue repealing and recreating article two of chapter 114 of the municipal code relating to rooms or lodgings that will be referred to the finance committee nine point six is an RO by the city clerk submitting a claim from Wilson Mutual Insurance Company on behalf of their insured LC and RLLC for alleged damages to their property due to sewer backup that'll be referred to the finance committee nine point seven is an RO by the city clerk submitting various license applications for the period ending December 31 2016 December 31 2017 June 30 2017 and June 30 2018 that'll be referred to the law and licensing committee I'm going to take a short recess just got to look something up okay item number 10 is a contemplated cold closed session older person Donahue move under the move to convene in closed session under the exemption provided in section 1981 sub one sub e of the Wisconsin statutes were competitive and bargaining reasons require a closed session related to the redevelopment opportunities for the founders club LLC and a development opportunity in the 600 block of North A Street second thank you for that motion and support would the clerk please call the roll for closed session 14 eyes 1 no motion passes again we'll take a short recess while we clear the chambers and reconvene in just a few minutes