 Timmy boy on DS1S6TV Waiting on Jim his headset is charging So he told me to get in here and start talking to people and kill time while his headset Charges to a point that he can turn it on. So there you have it But we're trying something out a little bit different this morning this is Alt space VR it is one of several different apps for the virtual reality headsets that are out there And it's one that allows you kind of like second life kind of Kind of like that situation where you've got friends and you can join them But you know much more immersive because you're in the space and you can talk to people and Do all kinds of interesting stuff And so the idea behind this reclaim today episode is to kind of discuss some of that discuss What does it look like to have spaces like this and you know? To be able to connect with people remotely in a time when that's pretty much one of the only ways that you can socialize So That being said Jim is gonna join us shortly I'm wondering I Don't know if I can take this camera So this is a new setup for me as is usual and you know much to Jim's chagrin I threw a curveball at him this morning and said let's try this happen instead. So I Got an account. He got an account and we set all this up within a Few minutes I've been playing with it for maybe the past 20 minutes just getting things working for this podcast and so I've got the headset on I'm here in my office and I'm waiting on Jim But I've actually got a third account that's looking at me with the camera pointed at me and so I don't know What I can do let me see if I can Control this camera for you and we can kind of move around a little bit I think that's a good idea. You don't need to look at me for this part I can just control the camera and we can kind of Walk around the space that I'm in right now while we wait on Jim and I'll listen for him He'll come in to my quote-unquote virtual house at some point here shortly. So Let me pop my head set up here for just a second and I can come over here and We can kind of Control this I believe Yeah, so I'm gonna leave my avatar over there alone and We will just do a tour of the space right now. So This is considered my quote-unquote home I Didn't do any design work in this. This is I guess a living room. There's a little fireplace I'll go back to where you would typically spawn there's A basketball hoop and stuff This is kind of like a rooftop deck. It's a nice home actually, right? And this is the main room you've got area with like a record player, which is awesome guitars on the wall a Little office space over here That's funny with the VR headset very realistic in that regard and And So the idea behind this app is like I said, you've got friends. They can jump into a space with you There's also events that are held in here And so you can actually see my menu here. So if I open this up, this is pretty wild So if I go to discover here, you can see all the various events that are happening in this place called alt space And there's all kinds of events sing for fun. So people actually do karaoke in here There are live events Work from home Monday sing seems like a co-working space. Maybe which is interesting Different meet-ups that people do Sometimes there's live events with comedians. Here's a educators in VR immersive classroom Not sure what that's about But seems maybe somewhat education related Neighborhood news So I haven't jumped into one of these live events yet You can see by the stars there are people who mark their interest in it So maybe kind of like Facebook events where you can mark where they're interested in the ones that are live You can see how many people are in it. So sing for fun has 10 people And it can host a maximum of 60 people in there so anybody can create their own events and people are doing that and Yeah, so that's that's one aspect of this another would just be meeting up with friends in different spaces and That could be interesting as well And then yeah, like once Jim's headset is charged then he can join in with me and we can actually do a podcast from here, too So you can mark events that you're interested in so for example if I go through here We've got a couple things ready learner one neighborhood news So let's say I'm interested in one of these I'll open it up. It talks about some interesting stuff here The hottest thing to happen in alt space since the campfire come see what's going on with the community Entertainment with the view the rooftop so not sure what this is but I'm gonna say I'm interested I'm gonna start that and Now if I go to my events list here, I can see my Interested events and there it is listed there. I can also see my friends events. I can see Events that I've attended You can see there's this one reclaimed today That's live right now that would be this event that I created a few minutes ago So yeah all kinds of different stuff happening. There's also people in here and like I said you can make requests of people This is my username to me boy. So if you use alt space you could friend me and It's interesting because this actually unlike some of the other apps that are VR only You can join from a PC in alt space So they don't have a Mac app. They don't have a Linux app, which is kind of a bummer It looks like it's PC only it's available on steam and you can download it and your same login gets you in there Oh Jim are you here? You are here. Look at you nice So I was just giving people You are it actually had a setting for a personal bubble and I turned it off Just for you Yeah, so I don't know how sitting works in here now one thing I need to check and see is whether or not your audio is gonna come Through that will I'll be honest. That's the one thing I didn't test before all this so talk talk for a little bit No, my daughter was an indie blues clues that much Barney Yeah Yeah, it definitely has that that feeling where everything's very cartoonish looking right All right, so yeah, if you back up a little bit now you can come if you want to come beside me The camera is what DS 1 of 6 TV sees so it's kind of like a third-party cameraman I Don't know Now see I Haven't figured out how to sit down So I guess I'll just stand beside here now. I don't think they're getting your audio So that's one thing I've got to figure out and you were able to get further back than I am Maybe because you're a robot and you don't have legs. Yeah I don't think I don't know if you need to but To you You're like so small compared to me I think you just cuz I'm closer or whatever, but I'm like a giant compared to a tiny robot view now The one thing here and this is gonna be a little on-air futzing, but I'm okay with it is we've got to get your audio to work So I want to make sure we can do that Let me see Yeah, see I hear you fine. I'm thinking For this to work the PC needs to be able to hear you I Haven't played with that yet. It kind of came up like a bubble. Yeah pops up out of your head Yeah, that's fine People can't hear you anyway, and I'm gonna figure out Now we get the audio mute External microphone That's the microphone What about speakers let's go windowed for a second I need to make sure Oculus Big screen that may work that may work give me one second one second unplugged things here We're doing all kinds of fuzzing up in here, but then we're gonna get this all go all right check. All right, yeah I think we got it for me So Hopefully there's not too much of an echo now. I'm thinking that My audio is coming through Jim's well Now how well that audio comes through we'll see And I'm sure anyone will be watching this before of us just Cutting around and thinking through So our back look at you That's a pretty good avatar. Thanks a lot. Hi everybody. Can they hear me? I believe they can now. Yeah That's pretty cool. How's everybody doing? Hopefully they get or else this will be a lame podcast It's all experiment. I mean that to me. I mean as we get started that to me has been the funnest part about The last I mean it's been hard the last few months for everyone I'm sure but it's also and it's been worked for a variety of things, but it's also been for me I'm just locked in on the things that I enjoy and tried to like get some things done and also like explore things that I'm interested in and just keep myself occupied and It's not I don't think I'm alone because other people seem to be doing it too And I know there's a lot to balance and some people have more you know Issues than others for a variety of reasons were you know managing But I was in a good situation because I was kind of used to this day at home lifestyle So it kind of just put me in a situation once I got over things to say like, okay Now what can we do in this situation? It'll make it fun? You know, yeah It's funny because I don't know when Yeah, it's funny because like when I think of like virtual environments and stuff and like second life and all that it all seemed Fairly lame before Before before all this hit like I would look at a space like all space VR and I would go. Yeah I'm never using that like I mean I look around I'm just sort of And now I'm just sort of like this is amazing like oh my gosh We could finally like you know to meet up now. I did that's not to be fair I did do some of the watching movies with my dad and VR and that kind of stuff So I've experimented I mean I've obviously played with VR and that kind of stuff But these sort of communal and what you might call social spaces for me social But remote made no sense until now and so now I'm thinking for it and thinking well What does it look like to have spaces in which you can have some sense of socialization in a World where right now you really can't you know you can't I mean You know the closest you can get is maybe like parking cars next to each other and waving from the window But otherwise you're kind of locked down to the house and that'll eventually change I'm sure but for now it's sort of our new reality and so Spaces like this end up being really interesting to me because it's more than just a zoom call or a video chat Like it you know there are some parts that you miss like some expressions But at the same time there's a there's a different level I think of intimacy in this that you don't get From just seeing someone on a screen Hey great. I mean just watching you talk as you're being represented here is really interesting because We're not used to it and that's why it's kind of interesting is because New space for everybody and I agree with you like given the options you probably would say, you know I don't need that right now. I'm not gonna spend hours of my day in this virtual space but Given the limitations, you know new things emerge then you mentioned while I was watching us I was recharging my heads that was All idea of like doing something like karaoke in here or yeah, you know some sort of group watch of some kind or just You know, it's it's what is this we've seen versions of this before when we've done second life And you know second we've had some momentum for a while in 2007 2008 2009 I would put part in yeah quite a few presentations by the new media consortium to be a part of those and Tom Woodward and I and Brian Lam had a lot of fun You know, I remember playing in there with Martha Curtis and the whole DTLT team Before it kind of jumped the shark and people are like, what are we doing in here? There is a sense of like exploration there and like fun and I think Like there's no reason not to approach this in the same way and I think one of the things that interests me is You already Set up for oh, we are 20 a really compelling situation and it wasn't VR per se But just to like karaoke and for me, it's a really interesting thing to think about like What does it look like? To create spaces that feel like inviting and open to come in and do something fun and connect I know my family has been talking about the OER karaoke for you know What was that three weeks ago now and my they're all like, what are we doing karaoke again? So, you know, we're starting even like week I mean Italy is starting to open up a little bit now. Like we're gonna be able to go to the hair get our haircuts again We're gonna be school has been canceled for the year, but like We are gonna get some Kind of space we can take walks with family outside again Things that we haven't been able to do for almost two months. So that's all coming next week So I do think there'll be a subtle reopening which is nice But I do think a lot of us aren't gonna be so quick to jump out And start doing things, you know, even though we can default to a social in a context of the physical and it's good I think a lot of us will be exploring these spaces as a result of I just thinking about it And I know I talk a lot but bear with me I was thinking about it because one of the big questions that universities are facing right now And I'm gonna talk about it is like they're doing a gamble, right? There's a big gamble on the table like do we open up and business as usual in the fall or do we kind of say, you know What we're gonna have the online and then see how things pan out and then if you can we'll let people come back But either way it's a gamble, right? Some folks are gonna win some folks are gonna lose because we don't know if this thing is gonna come back You know in a couple of months Hardcore or if it's gonna always be with us we're gonna modify everything or what? So it's just interesting to think that even though we'll have that first Russia like I'm out I think they'll be in the back of everybody's head this sense of like, you know Maybe I'm gonna limit some of my exposure outside in these social places because you know I don't want to take the risk or I'm just not comfortable or for whatever reason those germ phobias that have already existed Just get like highlighted and you know blown maybe even out of fortune arguably But it's just interesting to think about what the long-term effects of this and why maybe this playing isn't just a short-term Dottle if you will, you know, maybe yeah, well and the karaoke things kind of interesting too because that's one area where I could be Having a little bit of a separation from like having the virtual might actually be a good thing for some folks because you usually find with Karaoke there's like there's a couple of different camps There's obviously the ones like you and I who could care couldn't care less about being on-screen Audiovisual bring it all in person or virtual it doesn't really matter like we're gonna do it But then there's some folks who would love to participate in staying but don't necessarily like being in front of a camera And so this could be the perfect opportunity For someone to feel like maybe they could dip their toes in and even be a part of something in a way beyond Just like joining a zoom call, but maybe keeping their video off and feeling like I can't do that And so I just won't do it at all And so that might be an area where this environment actually allows people to Unnecessarily come out of their shell but to allow them a safer way You know for them a more natural way to be a part of something without feeling like gotta have a camera Gotta have a good microphone gotta have all that like you've got a whole equipment set up at home Just to be able to participate in some meaningful way So now you do need a VR headset Yeah, well, although I say that but I did mention this earlier alt space does allow you to connect on it on a Windows PC so So you don't necessarily need to be in VR to join now obviously It's a little different in terms of the feeling of it if you are In virtual reality, but it's not necessarily a requirement if you want the 2D 2-dimensional version of it You could join on a PC and have that same experience So which is also cool to think about bringing guests in on this like you could be in VR talking to someone But they could just join on a PC which is kind of fun, too So that isn't that does yeah, so that does open up but another element point there With though we are in karaoke and just karaoke in general whether in VR or even with the video setup is You eliminated another could possible two obstacles Alcohol right because a lot of times that's associated with a bar setup And like one of the things that was funnest about me is for me was not that apple is a bad thing But like, you know, sometimes that can be a You can't get your kids in Some people don't comfortable for whatever reason, but the other thing is that Having my kids in the karaoke was a blast Yeah, and they loved it and like I wouldn't feel necessarily as comfortable in a different context and everything depends upon context But I am super interested in the idea of trying to push out whether through VR or just through cameras or some Combination hybrid these little kind of karaoke rooms or even events that Reclaim hosting kind of sponsors and puts on and just you know, or we do or ES 106 TV and just runs because I just think that Yeah, well, it'll be fun and like you were getting at a little bit like People and businesses and Organizations like everybody's perspective is gonna have to change it's already changing our world Has changed and so, you know, I don't think anybody has a good sense of what that looks like going forward So the best thing we can do right now is to put everything on the table and experiment, you know I mean the worst thing you could do is just be either Defeat us and say well this sucks and so I'm just gonna crawl in a hole and just you know Hope that normal comes in the future, you know, and and then it never does or you know Vice versa you can say let's try anything and everything to Maintain some sense of life, right to maintain some sense that like, you know, we can be social We can be active we can we can do stuff to keep going and so it'll be interesting to see and various interested I know this morning. We were talking about the idea the arcade And whether or not that's even still gonna be a thing when this is over, of course arcades right now all completely closed much like any kind of entertainment Type venue and I and one could arguably say before this that was like a growing industry this idea of like entertainment space is you had escape rooms you had throwing axes and things you had you know Wrecking rooms where you could take like a chainsaw to a car or something I mean There was all kinds of like Anybody who could figure out some type of entertainment and then they would add alcohol into the mix And that would be a business model for someone and so we were going for yeah We were going for the classic arcade in the arcade bar idea that was so popular And now all of that has sort of a different frame Because it's like wow you're in Yeah, you've got groups of people together with an arcade Everybody's hands are on everything and so you're sort of like oh wow how often would you have to wipe these things down? Like every three minutes. I mean, it's just not practical And so what does it look like? to To give that same sense because I think the interest is still there people still want to get out they still want to Socialize they still want to play the games, but how do you do that in a safe way? It's you know for the next foreseeable future, which could be you know at least two years And so what does that look like now? Yeah, one of the things I was thinking about as we were talking about that this morning Did I watch that movie contagion? Which I know you've seen to and it kind of really does an interesting job based on SARS in the early 2000s I'm talking about this and my projecting one of the funny parts of that movie is there's two people who work at the CDC and the Center for Disease and Disease Control or I forget the exact and what it translates you but that anyway They basically are sitting in these two hazmat to Looking at these viruses talking about what you do for Thanksgiving or what you do for Christmas And it was like they were having this social conversation, but they were completely isolated from one another By the suits and so my idea for the arcade was to create a kind of speakeasy space where we Create like we have like hazmat suits for people they come in they dress in the hazmat suits And then they can go about and play the game drink the beer and it's not viable as a Long-term solution Someone else is stood on right Who wore this dude before me? But the thing about it, and I have to think you're thinking along similar lines is me the thing about it is that like I'm still very much Imagining what it looks like in some fashion when we were doing reclaim video We weren't like oh, we're gonna open up a video store and make money We were more like we are gonna try and make this thing into place with the web in an interesting way And I know you've been playing with the pinballs with DS106 TV already I've been playing with some of the old-school consoles and name games still in process But I'm very interested in where those two can coincide and if there's a space that we still have and still have the games which I want and still have all that stuff How does all of that kind of? Overlapped and I think the only way we'll know is by keep doing what you said is remain interested Not suggest that this is the end be defeatist and say we'll wait for everything goes away because this could happen again This could be long term and we're not trying to scale this as a solution for an institute Or a solution for a you know a field of you know anything just as a way for us to remain Focused and moving towards something we like, you know, and I think that's where I think a lot of the stuff goes from 0 to 60 so fast these people like that can't be good or it can be if we're not Claiming this is a solution for everything and this is the only way to do it and you know, this is the right way Oh This is a whole way to think through things we like in a virtual environment to understand how physical and virtual Connect I mean that's what's interesting about the arms. So throw everything out as a result of it's just beyond this It just it just seems to me very useless, you know as useless the same VR is the solution to education That's my thing Well, and I remember when we were first designing out what dark cave would be we had a space That's an aside for virtual reality and as we got to designing it That was kind of one of the things that we were sort of I don't know if people will be into that or not Is there a business model there? Maybe maybe not and we frankly just ran out of space because we wanted more physical games in there Hey, which is really funny to say out loud now It's like I'll get rid of the VR because we need more space for physical games and now What if it's the opposite and what if it's sort of like What if what if now creating spaces for people to privately in a safe and Sanitized environment come in and get into a space like this when they couldn't do it in their homes for example That would be really interesting, right? I mean or for a group of people to each be in separate spaces within a building and be able to put these Headstets on and get together like this. So I don't know There's a vision of that have you ever seen Spielberg's minority report Yes, yeah, absolutely member there's that guy. It's a sleazy place, but there is that whole VR Virtual world where you would go into your little cubicle and they they would feed you a fantasy and some fantasies were bizarre and twisted but this idea of being in this place and then Having an experience that then could link you to all these other places like I've been thinking a lot about that just to think about like it's also associated with alienation and Kind of this darker sense of like oh here. We are but like how do you take something like that and make it? almost Connect yeah positive Exactly like something you want to do something you're excited and that's why I keep on coming back to the carrier Because although we were isolated it didn't feel that way. It felt like a bridge You know, yeah, and so that was important I think a lot of the Hollywood type that tends to be or towards the dystopian with that even like ready Ready player one the whole idea was that everybody's in their VR heads That's because the actual world has gone to shit Like that's always the narrative right it's like like anybody who would put on a headset is doing it because the real-life world stocks And I don't I don't want to believe that that's the case right now I mean yes this virus stocks, but it's more a sentence of like we have been given Obstacles right now in terms of our ability to be social and so what do we do with those obstacles? And how do we overcome it and what are the different ways in this being just one of many in how we could do that? And so, you know for me, it's it's an exciting time I guess, you know, I'd every day when I wake up I'm trying to think through on the arcade side like like what's gonna be that drive for me like Innovate and change and it you know, like you've already got some ideas For me like it's always I was trying to look up like the different stages of grief because there's there's this like It's true like there's this trajectory right where like first you're just like crestfallen and you know I mean that was me. That was me a month ago when I when I realized like wow This everything is shut down. Everything's on pause. This whole thing has come to a complete screeching halt And so now like I'm slowly coming out of that hole and going Okay Now it's like, you know, we we're starting to come to the realization that it's not just on Pause for a month or two like there is it's things have changed, right? And so you come out of the hole and realize wow like things look vastly different than they did a month ago And so now I'm starting to come around to like so what now, right? like now I can finally with myself have that conversation where as before was just sort of like this ox the world's over Screw it all or or vice versa lying to myself and thinking this is all gonna pass Right, like just let's wait for this to pass and then we'll get back to normal, right? You know, whatever normal was and so it's finally coming around to that idea of like, okay Normal is not a thing anymore. So Let's just deal with it And let's do the best thing that we can do is to not again not be defeatist But think like what the hell can we do to innovate? Like we've been given an opportunity here to to basically go back to a blank slate and say what do you want to do? And luckily for us, I think, you know, some of these businesses had to change on the fly like restaurants around town here I mean They were given no notice at all. I mean within a week It was just sort of like your clothes you can do delivery and carry out only and some of these restaurants had never done that before in their life Oh, and you know, even still it's not going to replace the income that they had before and so people are having to very quickly change up Every aspect of their business and some of them are handling it better than others and the ones that are handling it best I see are just like screw it. We're just gonna go. We're just gonna figure things out There's a there's a place in town called one more taco They have a brick and mortar place, but they started as a food truck Now they have a brick and mortar spot small staff and As soon as this thing hit they were like, all right. Well, here we go So instead of using our kitchen for food We'll still do delivery and carry up and now we're gonna start making meals for hospital workers If you want to pay for those you can do it and they've been delivering hundreds of Meals to the elderly to the hospitals to everything and it's just like they doubled down on Charity work in the midst of a virus when everybody else is just sort of panicking like how do I keep jobs? And they're like we need to keep busy, you know, I've seen breweries creating Hand sanitizer with their equipment. I've seen all kinds of different folks just changing up everything I saw one brewery not here in town But one that I read online that had been using their massive equipment to create a huge soup kitchen To deliver soup for the homeless because they don't need to brew beer right now But they have the ability to do a massive amount of soup in the same equipment and they're just like why wouldn't we do that? Because we can and so I think that's amazing to have that kind of mentality to just say here We have the space we have the equipment and the whole world is very different. So what do we do now? You know, and let's let's not take the handbook from a month ago Let's let's just rewrite it right now So we we luckily have the time I think to think through what that might look like in the coming months And so what does that look like for us with the arcade? You know and you know God forbid the hosting the hosting is still good You know luckily higher-end hasn't completely shut the bed yet. So But you know on the arcade side, I think it's a really it's a it's an interesting thought experiment And I'm just finally I think mentally coming around to okay. I can start out to have those conversations with myself. I Agree with you, too. I agree with you about the grieving part It's funny to think about but think about how locked in we've been to the arcade the last month Probably for the last month and a half. We haven't talked about it We just stopped talking about it That was our only way to deal with kind of grief is it's over right? You know where we would luckily like you said we weren't so deep in them and walk away from some of our commitment But at the same time it was like we were looking at you know a very optimistic Open date of next week That's crazy to think about now, but that's next that's that's Friday Just yeah clear. So I think we are We are kind of in the situation I still believe that it can happen and it can happen in some form like not the same form like you said But I do think that we can really start to sit down think about some of the stuff We've already started like between media like the radio, which is a very different beast But for me like it always shows to me the need to like communicate through this media to connect through this media Around the culture and that's what all of these folks are doing with the gaming Barcades with the karaoke all of them have that in common They're all bringing people together around this kind of shared object of culture that then becomes a social event and I think there's a lot of kind of very instructive Possibilities within that idea it doesn't matter if it's growing axes doesn't matter if it's singing songs Doesn't matter if it's playing games watching movies the shared sense of like we said at the faculty academy there was a presenter who talked about This idea of the shared object of desire that I keep on coming back for again and again talking about all of our pursuits in some ways come Physically and socially not necessarily physically, but socially through Keeping our kind of sense And saying like how we still and body and encapsulate that sense of a shared purpose around And make it feel genuine and not just an exchange in a transit Is what we're looking for having Right now and like you said it was pretty clear to us a month and a half ago how we would do it You get the space we put the game in there. We've had some beer We have some food it would all be good and they would come right that's not the case so much anymore and so like I think It's keep doing Yeah, playing with stuff like this talking to the TV that no one's watching like Video on YouTube that no one cares about like I think there is something there to that sense of a persistence of Through Right now, I'm looking Atari 5200 games on an emulator emulator game playing pie so that Experience and then Tommy and I can play doubles on DS 106 TV to demonstrate and talk through a bit of that It's education. It's educated educating for him because these are all games. He's interested but doesn't really know the long history of It's just fun for me and I like the challenge of trying to do that kind of stuff And I think I have to believe just like with our with our hosting or with anything we've done if you do something with the tech if you do something for long enough and You kind of do have a sense of it and you believe in it and you believe in what you're doing and it's not scummy And sometimes in the scummy it's still successful, but if it's not scummy It's like you can still get up every day and do it and feel good about it And everything we've done to lead up to the arcade. I still feel good about I still stand behind It's not like we were just doing that to make a million dollars In fact, we were doing it because we wanted to and now it's changed, but it doesn't mean we're gonna walk away Just gonna double down Yeah, no, definitely. I feel like And I feel like all these experiments are useful, right? Like these experiments have helped us and it and it's weird because like you never know that it's gonna be useful right out the gate like I mean people like thought it was really weird that we're Remotely from a robot and then we were streaming south You know to figure out how to stream things to the web without YouTube because of all the copyright issues And then some of that it always kind of circles back and Become the way I work is I never have that sense of like but is it useful because I know like maybe it's not But maybe it is or maybe it'll be useful in a different context entirely to the point where now You know the VR headset that I bought two years ago in the video streaming server that I set up You know two years ago is all of a sudden all coming together in a very different way And maybe even this isn't useful, but it doesn't matter because little pieces of it get Get used in different contexts and ways to where suddenly you feel like We can do this. We have the technology. We have the ability to do it So, you know, it becomes less of a burden. So I'm excited by all this stuff and it's really cool especially especially in in 2020 like the the amount of technology and the ability for what we have to do We have so much at our fingertips where I think we couldn't have asked for a better time for a situation like this to to occur You know exactly in between bandwidth between Technology and the devices that we have and everything else. So to me, it's fun to experiment and to play. I Agree and I have to say on that point Like What they learned I And you have been kind of exploring and expressed some of, hopefully, this stuff that when you turn it, it's going to be researched about the software that a video, VR, et cetera, all turns out the way now. And then the next, the food is completely in the bagel. I didn't think about like the show, right? The provost put money into this thing to allow for these people to do various kind of operations like the classroom, like domains, like gaming and learning. And a lot of people said, oh, look at this research happening in there. You know, it's so divorced from what we're doing. At this point, like they are the people that that administration is turning to for advice, right, for ideas, like for an informed, concerted, intellectual kind of notion of what's possible. Same thing that happened at ETLT with UMW when the MOOCs came. Yeah. You know, the president luckily came to us and we're like, here's what we think. And we know we've been doing stuff like this. And I just think the problem is the folks who have disinvested from that kind of sense of it's got to be useful. I got to be able to link it to the numbers. I got to be able to kind of match it with my ledger. Those are the first people who are going to be selling out their core infrastructure, the OPMs, and have nothing to fall back on. And kind of completely brings into a larger question around this notion of, you know, what's the value then of the experience? If you're selling out your core curriculum to a bunch of companies who are basically doing the same thing forever. So what am I doing for? And when you've always, when you've always got to have to have that one, which administrators do that one to one connection between the work you're doing and the value. And there's like, like, and not, not just this value in terms of, well, this is a useful for experimentation, but value in terms of like, this is bringing in revenue, this bringing in students, tuition dollars, all this kind of stuff, everything. It always has to have that one to one connection instead of saying, hey, the work that I'm doing in this experimentation may be used in the future. And then, you know, like, again, you know, administrators just don't think that way. Everything's just very, you know, nuts and nuts. You know, everything's very, very particular. And it's just sort of like, you know, if you can't just buy a PlayStation because there's no value for that. It's like, well, you know, if we were experimenting with gaming in this and then, you know, and all of a sudden PlayStation comes out with the VR headset and you're playing with that. And it's like, well, I can just buy toys for you. You know, like, there's always these conversations around where it's a very narrow focus of like that one particular thing you're doing right now may or may not have used. And it's like, yeah, okay, but, you know, if you can take little pieces of those things and build out an experience, then yeah, it actually can. So, yeah. That's interesting too. And I know there's a longer history there about, you know, not everyone had to go to school and to get a college degree previously. That's more and more the demand. But then again, with that demand, you know, you've gotten rid of a lot of your core tenure faculty, got rid of a lot of the kind of impulse to do research and you've offloaded a lot of that. And so you kind of put yourself in this tenuous situation, right? So, I mean, I understand the struggle is real and it's bigger than, you know, any kind of quit I might make about it. But I mean, in a moment like that, you certainly realize how valuable it is to kind of have kept a certain amount of open mind about possible alternatives. Even if it's something as simple as online learning is possibly sustainable and could be really useful to invest in, I mean, even something as basic right now as that, like you don't even have to go to the craziness of VR. Like, hey, maybe online courses, you know, could be a thing. No, it's funny, but it's a weird moment where now like it is the thing, you know, and I think I just believe that a lot of faculty now, given that the circumstances and the need has brought it to bear, you know, of figuring out cool things that a bunch of practitioners who want to imagine or a country theorist want to imagine it never could. Right? The practice has to be, you know, shared and passionately appreciated for it to grow. And so in that regard, this could be a really big boon for all of this kind. You know, and I know right now we're in a very difficult transitional period, but I don't think we're going to look back, just like I was saying in Slack earlier. I don't think we're going to be looking back at online commerce in the same way we do about malls and all that, right? Like for me, the mall and that whole idea of shopping at these stores and stuff is just they're going to be the first line to go. I personally believe like our idea of the mall and that sense of shopping in the wake of this is not long. And so that brings us back to the whole idea of the reclaim arcade and how we reimagine it with certain possible changes. And I could be wrong, I've been wrong a million times before, but like what does that mean as we go forward with some of this stuff? Like what does that mean for us and our passions and what we want to share and how will they look different in this age just like teaching is going to look somewhat different or at least the different media, you know? It still could be good teaching and good learning, but the media is changing. So it's compelling. And it's a good time for those conversations because I feel like, you know, a lot of, you know, Italy is probably at the peak and is on their way downward. USA is still going up, but, you know, hopefully in the next couple of weeks we're going to start to turn that peak as well. So you're going to have a summer time where hopefully most countries are on a downward swing, hopefully, you know, at some point over the summer. And so like these next couple of months are the time to figure this out, you know, as people start to think about what does it look like for certain places to start to open up for people to kind of like come up for a breath of fresh air and think, OK, what is the quote unquote the new normal, you know? And so I think this is the exact right time to be thinking through this and to say, all right, we've been given this time. We think we have this stuff. What are we going to do with this? I'm excited to have those conversations. You know what, you're right. And when you're right, you're right. You're right. I think that's I think that's the right note to end this episode on. This was probably the trippiest reclaim today. We've done crazy. I love it in a while. You know, that's what I love about reframing. And that's the other thing about reclaim today and BLT today and the long history of that. It's like when you're doing the things, you're always like, why are we doing this again? But then when you go back and look at it and you provide some of that contact for the moment you were going to like among what we're going to right now, it's kind of weird. And like nothing you say, you know, none of it. We're not pretending like this is the book of Job and read the Bible and study it and take the word. This is just basically two idiots trying to deal with the world as it's changing. And I mean, I don't want to speak to you, Tim, but I appreciate that about those videos. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. No, two idiots hanging out together in Steve. And what was it called? Blues Clues. This is our blues. That's right. What was it? I was just I was very briefly looking on Twitter and let's hold on. I see that's cool that you can barely even get up here. Paul Bond said it looks like Timmy and Twiggy from the old Buck Rogers show. That's right. Twiggy. Twiggy was the robot. Oh, gotcha. Yeah, the Buck Rogers is before my time. Yeah, that's right about a verge of my time at the beginning. I saw Twiggy going to Buck Rogers. Well, I'm going to sign off here at least for the video up here to close this out, but thanks to everybody who is maybe watching live as well as the folks who will probably catch this on the archive. We appreciate it and more experimentation to come, right? That's right. Always and forever for me. Bye, everybody. That was kisses I blew, but you can't see it because it's virtual.