 Hi everybody, I'm David Martins, I'm the Director of the Vermont Affordable Housing Coalition and welcome back to our June installment of In the House Live where we speak with different members of our communities to talk about housing from a variety of different perspectives. This month is, the month of June is Pride Month and so this week I, well this month and for a couple of reasons actually, I have invited Representative Taylor Small to join us, one fierce advocate for LGBTQ issues and also which happens to be my representative and I'm hoping that as we talk today, I kind of want to touch on a little bit about the importance of civic involvement, the importance of folks being involved in the process and so I thought you would be the perfect example of that. Well thank you so much for having me David, I'm happy to be here. Yeah, so welcome and this was your first, this was your first biennium right? My first biennium, the COVID biennium, well I don't know if I get to claim that one, at least we started online. You started, you did start online, yeah. Our first year, yeah. And so what's sort of your first, someone says to you, well what did you think of your first round in this? Oh, what a complicated question. The first round was, you know, really amazing. I feel like I got a very warm welcome into this space, especially in a time where you felt so disconnected with the first year being online, it's hard to make those connections and relationships but I came in with a fierce first class of folks who I think it was because of being online and having that displacement of being on Zoom that allowed us to speak up more and be more active in the process rather than what's usually accustomed for a first term member is to be quiet and listen and learn and not speak up as much. And we did plenty of listening and learning but we also got to the speak up point as well. You did, you did some speaking too, that's for sure. We did, we did. I put in my legislative wrap up for the coalition, the first line said, Joe, you're on mute because how many of us in Zoom meetings, you know, so used to having to tell someone, so you're on mute, someone says you're on mute. And despite being on Zoom, the legislature was certainly not on mute. It certainly was not. I think we were asked to mute more often than being asked to unmute. Many of your thoughts about just some, some two major pieces of housing legislation were passed were sort of those just in the housing world are, were a little bit nervous about one of them, but we're pretty confident in the other and the mental health and safety bill. I was at a groundbreaking event today though that Governor Scott was at and he plainly said when I signed these two housing bills next week, so hopefully that's a good sign. But two big pieces, right, the rent housing safety bill and the omnibus housing bill. Some other pieces kind of, or some other bills sort of showed up in the first few weeks and then got picked apart and re-added and so on just caused eviction. Of course it was vetoed ultimately. But kind of any thoughts about the housing bills? Yeah. I think we had an easy year when it came to doing housing work. You know, I think across the nation we've been understanding that there's a housing crisis and in Vermont in particular our issue is having an old housing stock and a lot of folks using rental homes are having second homes which reduces the availability for others who are living here in the state. And so I think we were able to make some really massive investments into infrastructure and new building and I think the trouble will come in the next biennium when we don't have this overflow of cash and really need to start looking at our policies and I think there are a lot of policy updates that we need to make especially when it comes to protecting renters' rights. You highlighted the bill that was near and dear to my heart, which was really fighting for just cause eviction in Burlington, knowing that it really should be a statewide initiative. Vermont is a leader when it comes to tenant rights, but no cause eviction is just a modern-day form of discrimination in the housing world. It allows folks to evict someone just because it wasn't the right fit. And how often have we heard that in marginalized communities where we're not the right fit because our identities aren't showing up right or because they don't agree with our lifestyle or how we're living? I would never want to lose housing over that, especially as a trans person I think that comes really clearly, but also recognizing the reckoning that we're having around racial justice and how that impacts housing access and what we've seen even in my city in Wenewski. Yeah, absolutely. So do you think, I would say off the record, but we're on television so I guess it's kind of on the record. It's on. But you think that I've heard from many that the same sentiment about that at a statewide level this is really what, you know, we even heard it from a couple legislators in committees, right, as it was being discussed, and I'm sure that someone will suggest that for, do you anticipate that it would have the same outcome though at the state level as it did with the charter change? You know, the question really is about who we elect in this upcoming year. We're seeing some massive turnover in the House and Senate and a lot of leaders, a lot of committee chairs are moving either into higher positions or just getting exhausted from the work. So I think with new energy there might be this buildup and desire to have just cause on the state level, but I know of various municipalities that are going to be working in this off-session to pass charter changes similarly to Burlington's to enact a just cause eviction. And that's how it seems to start, just like what we did with Wenewski and Montpelier last year in doing all-resident voting, something we would love to see on the statewide level but are just not at that point yet. We don't have the buy-in yet, but for the communities where it really counts, I think it's important to have those protections and the participation in civics available. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that the, it was funny you heard in, I don't know how much you watch, you're busy enough in your own committees, so I don't know how much you watch the other committees, but when Just Cause was in the Senate GovOps committee, the sentiment was kind of, you know, some changes, as I'm sure you heard, some changes were made in the House GovOps committee that advocates were kind of, were not really in favor of, you know, and then, and then I think it was Senator Clarkson in Government Ops in the Senate, that's one of her committees? I believe so, yes. Someone said, I think it was her, said, let's just put it the way that, the way that it passed Burlington, it's, you know, this impacts the people of that town, they, this is what they want, this is what they passed, let's just, and they were all kind of like, yeah, I agree. I said, well, this, well, this is great. Just kind of, and I think for me, that was one of the most frustrating parts of the whole thing was that like, this is, this is something that this community has already made clear that they, that they want to move forward, you know, but. And it's a sentiment we hear time and time again when it comes to charter changes, is wanting to follow the will of the voters. It is a, it feels like a duplicative process when we have folks already voting on what they want to see enacted for their city and town, and then having to have it go through both chambers and be signed by the governor for it actually to go into effect. I think, I know Vermont League of Cities and Towns has been advocating for an update of, of the rules and whether it's, if you're able to enact it in one city or town, if it gets passed through both chambers and signed by the governor, then the same legislation or the same charter change should be able to be put in place in any town across Vermont. Why would it be different town to town or city to city? So I think it's an important question to ask as to how, what is our responsibility as a legislature when it comes to charter changes, and should we be making edits when it isn't following the will of the voters? Yeah, yeah. I think that it's a, you know, when the, after the incidents of July 6th in Washington there a couple years ago, we heard people talk about the, refer to the capital as these hallowed halls, and I think that's so beautiful because there really is something hallowed about it. There's something really, the responsibility, I know I was always struck sitting in the balcony watching all of you in the chamber and think to myself, these people all have full-time jobs, and this ain't it. Which is bad. You know, and they, I mean, it's a real, it's a real sacrifice and a real commitment that for little to no reward, right? I mean, I would imagine, I would hope that you get thank you letters and stuff from constituents, but I'm sure you also get the comments from the other side, and I just thought to myself, this really is not only are these hallowed halls, but these are people who are doing, who are doing hallowed work, you know, for, that steers the course of so many communities as a statewide community, but really just out of a love for Vermont and Vermonters, and that was really profound to me, coming from a state where the, you know, where it was their full-time job, it does make for some different dynamics, and so if no one else has said thank you, I'll say thank you, both as a constituent and as someone who works in advocacy. You've just been a wonderful advocate for housing, and so many of you in the chamber have, it's been wonderful. I appreciate it, and I think you address a really key issue there, and having a part-time citizen legislature is that it is a work of love. It's loving your community, it's loving your state, and wanting to enact policies that are really going to better Vermont. And I think it is a privilege on my end in being a legislator that is in a state house where that is the case. It's not the case across the nation and most definitely not at the federal level where we're seeing this fighting that happens through the media. It's not these conversations that are happening in the state house itself, where you're sitting down either at lunch or across the table from someone who's from a completely different party than you are, and they see the issue in a very different light. But what you know at the base of the conversation is that you're both working in the best interest of Vermonters. But the other piece is having to have a full-time job is that who's excluded and who's not able to run, even if they have that passion and love for Vermont, to be able to come in and serve and have those really great ideas and new approaches to the work such as housing. And I think that's a barrier that we're running into with a lot of legislators in this past biennium and previous being landlords themselves and taking a lot of these bills on a personal level of, as a landlord, I would never do this. So why would you put these policies in place? Instead of recognizing the larger issue is that not all landlords are acting in the same fashion, and we really need to be protecting the most vulnerable Vermonters, which are folks who are dependent on someone else for housing when they're not building their own equity. They're not creating a pathway to home ownership, but instead are paying someone else's livelihood at the end of the day. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One more, kind of for your thoughts about a directly housing issue. And before we kind of change gears, I would guess that you hear from members of the LGBTQ plus community between your work in the legislature and in your day job. Can we tell them your day job? Of course, it's public. Representative Small works at the Pride Center. You just had a job change too, right? I did. Moved from being the director of our health and wellness program to now managing our education program, which is really the heart of the work that I love, which is getting out there and improving access to services for LGBTQ and just marginalized Vermonters. Yeah, super. And what do you think, we're talking about housing and housing for vulnerable Vermonters. I don't know about your experience, but my experience has been that sometimes people, I think, feel like that we've moved past the era of LGBTQ discrimination, you know, like I remember, I think that it's a safe bet that I'm a little bit older than you. And I remember like when marriage equality passed, there was a lot of discussion and I was in Rhode Island at the time, and we had a lot of discussion about how this isn't because it was a sentiment of like, we did it. We're here, you know, and people kind of like, there's a lot of these other, you know, not even like other issues that if they get, it could end up impacting this, like there's just more to do within LGBTQ rights and within just the way that we are, we engage with the larger community, right? And that I think some people sort of thought like, wow, you know, Will and Grace, like I'm all, you know, you're gay, that's great. I'm all for it. Like that was really kind of the sentiment and I think even in Vermont to a certain degree because we think, well, Vermont is so accepting and so welcoming and there's rainbow flags all over, all over Burlington. There's, you know, well, that's all very true, but the Pride Center was vandalized, so obviously not everybody is hanging those flags, right? So what have you heard in terms of how the housing issue is impacting our community specifically? Well, I think you bring up a really great point that the issues are still very much there and I think a few issues come to mind. One is thinking of no cause eviction again and knowing that that is a way of ending leases with LGBTQ people and moving them out of more urban areas. What we see traditionally in our community is that folks tend to migrate towards more urban and more diverse areas where you're able to be around community, you're able to participate in queer events, you're able to not feel alone out in rural parts of Vermont. And yet what we're seeing is that with the increase in housing costs and rental costs, it's pushing LGBTQ folks farther and farther out into rural parts of Vermont. And don't get me wrong, there are plenty of rural queers who are living their best life out in the woods and there are plenty of folks who want to be closer to community and want to be involved in the urban scene and just aren't able to afford it. And then it brings in transportation. If you don't have reliable transportation and you're out in Vermont, how are you connecting back to community? So I think the pandemic really opened up a lot of opportunities for Pride Center to be able to hear more about the issues and connect with folks outside of Chittenden County. What was really impactful is in 2020, we did a virtual Town Hall series where we did a Zoom meetings with LGBTQ folks around the state of Vermont and they were focused on various issues, whether it was health justice, racial justice, housing was a big one that we talked about. And folks named all of the pieces that we already know. There's not a lot of housing available, housing is getting way more expensive, it's unaffordable for most folks. And what we're seeing is a lot of young queer folks are leaving Vermont at the end of the day. Luckily, they come back. There's a cycle. There's this magic with Vermont where you leave for a bit, but you always come back to it. But it is, it's still really sad to know that the opportunities don't feel available for young LGBTQ people in Vermont, where they need to go to these major cities or other areas where they can get better paying jobs, more affordable housing. They build their families up and then they come back when they're able to settle and afford Vermont. Yeah, I think that for a long time, there was a sort of sentiment that people in the LGBTQ community, that like we had more money, you know, there's that, that old because we didn't have no kids. Yeah, exactly. So we must have, we must just be just swimming and loaded and money. But first of all, many of us do choose to have kids, right? And not for anything, but like, we're all paying the same rents. Absolutely are. You know, so that notion is really sort of absurd. And at least for us in, you know, in these times that, that we're in, I personally think it was always sort of an absurd notion. But and, and I think that it's that exact housing crisis that, that just in fact perpetuates the unfortunate truth of the exact opposite of that. Exactly. Exactly. Because we also recognize that LGBTQ folks, especially trans women and trans women of color are put into positions that are not typically high paying. There isn't a lot of ascension that happens within corporations or within businesses. And so we still see folks in minimum wage jobs trying to pay rent and again, not building that equity up. So where are those robust supports for folks who are feeling that impact of, of not being able to get into the job market and not being able to see those opportunities for themselves? Absolutely. So I think that for anyone who's watching that the one message that we can really drive home is that this issue, I say it every time we have one of these shows that this housing situation truly impacts every Vermont or does, you know, shift gears a little bit, that it's Pride Month, which we, we know is about more than just the parties that, right, that Pride Month recognizes the Stonewall, we began with the Stonewall riots and recognizes all the incredible things that have happened since then. And, you know, we're sitting here, you know, talking about the, the way the crisis impacts our community right now. Reality of it is we do have to recognize, though, that we have come an awful long way. We have since Stonewall, right? And, and that that's an important thing for us to remember during Pride Month, I think. And to remember, though, that Pride Stonewall was a bunch of people who said, we're not doing this anymore. Enough is enough. Enough is enough. And we have to, we're going to do something. Have you ever seen the, the docuseries when we rise? I have, yes. Oh my God, I love it. It is fantastic. And that whole notion that Cleve puts forward about like one fight. This is one struggle, one fight. This is line, right? And, and he has the girl whose name, everybody else's name escapes me right now, but who worked in the women's center. And then the, the sailor, the part of the BIPOC community. And they're all talking, and we see the roots of all of these different movements, all being born out of Harvey Milk's office. And I think that it just, it's a very powerful reminder of that, of that reality that it is, it's one struggle, one fight. It's important that, that we remember that, I think. Oh, especially in a time of such division where we're seeing that across various communities and even within our own, where there's this, this separation that I don't think should ever exist, but we've seen cycle through, which is the LGB and the T being separate, as if, as sexuality and gender are two very separate things instead of this one fight mentality that we are all in this together, that if we're fighting for equal rights and equal representation, why would we pick off one by one based on identity? Why wouldn't we want this inclusive movement that's looking at the holistic view of who we are and what we want the world to be? Absolutely. Right. We've made significant strides from Harvey Milk serving in office and sadly being assassinated in office to now having trans representation here in Vermont in, in politics. We see Sarah McBride as a senator in Delaware and even our commissioner of health on the, on the US scene is also a trans woman who is leading the way. Dr. Well, Rachel Levine, not to be confused with our own Dr. Of course, of course. Yeah. And I think, you know, I always think of, there's that scene when this, the sailor who's, do you remember his name? Jones. I'm also bad with names. Well, he, his partner dies in the, in the beginnings of the AIDS pandemic and they've been living together for a number of years. I want to say it was something like a decade that they had been, because they got together when it was the younger guy playing him and they were still together in the later and the partner dies, but the house was in his name and the family shows up and just put, they put the guy right out in the street, completely lost his housing with no recourse, nothing to, nothing to lean on, you know. And so I think it's sort of a twofold thing of like, thank God, that's not where we are anymore. But by the same token, something like no cause of fiction could put someone in the same, in the same boat. So I just think it's a, it's a delicate dance between, yes, it's great how far we've come, but to remember that we still have a long way to go. Yeah. And that policies can do a lot to support folks, that we have policies in place around housing, employment and health care discrimination on the state and national level. But policies only go so far because we do, I think there's two policies in housing that really come to mind when it comes to renters and being able to know that they have housing as a human right. I think as you've addressed in this show many times, and as we need to keep talking about, housing is, is health care, housing is how we keep our community safe and with no cause of eviction, and then also the eviction process where if the landlord lives in the same building, they can legally discriminate against who's living there because it's they're a boat. And so it does put us in this very tricky situation where the power dynamics are, you are the person providing me housing that I need to sustain and to live. And what, what is that payoff? What happens? Am I able to speak up if there are code violations? If there's black mold, if there's infestations of rats or mice, or is that going to jeopardize my opportunity of staying in housing? And that's what we saw in Winooski. Yeah, we saw in Winooski where folks who finally stood up and said, our housing conditions are terrible. We have black mold, we have cockroaches in our building, and we haven't felt safe to speak up about it. It got news coverage. And then what happened a few months later, they were all given an eviction notice and told that they had to move out because they were going to make those renovations and upgrade the whole space. Luckily, city officials and community members were able to step in and say, this is unacceptable. These are community members. These are folks who are multi lingual. These are students who are about to lose the resources because there was no other housing available in Winooski. They would be pushed into a completely different school district who weren't and would not be set up in time for multi-lingual students. So it is the crux of the issue time and time again. And I think there's, as I said earlier on, there are some significant policy updates that we need to do on a state level that go beyond putting money into it, though the money aspect is very important. Definitely, definitely. But it's definitely not all of it. You're absolutely right. What do you think, just sort of as some kind of closing thoughts, the power of the people, not to use a cliche, somewhat cliche term, I guess, but the power of the people we saw at Stonewall, I think that, I think in a way we saw it a bit during the legislative session, people kind of really, as one thing I was really struck by was just the accessibility to, you know, to all of you. I tried to not take advantage of it by pestering you too much, but I definitely shat a text your way a few times. But like, but there is some real kind of power in the people that civic involvement, primaries are coming up. Yes. Right. And then, and then, of course, November a word or two about the importance of of voting, the importance of being part of that process. It's super easy here. It is super easy. You can get registered online. You can register when you get your new license or ID card at the DMV. Everyone should be registered to vote and should vote in both the primary election on August 9th. And of course, again, in the general election in November. And we don't pick a party. You do have to pick a party in the primary. But you never have to stick to that party. We're very liberal in that respect of it is just when you are filling out the primary ballot because it is for the major party candidates. But general election, you don't pick a party. It's the same ballot for every single person. And again, with all of this turnover this year, I think there needs to be some significant conversations with candidates about what their plans are when they come in around advocating for housing policy or what we need to do to change. And there are some big ticket items that are on the ballot this year, including amending our constitution, which I can't help but highlight. Proposition two and five will be on the ballot for folks to vote on. One is officially abolishing slavery here in the state of Vermont, taking it out of our constitution. Luckily, slavery is illegal in the state, but this feels like a much needed update to our state constitution. And of course, in the face of Roe versus Wade being overturned on the federal level, we really need to enshrine reproductive liberties in our state constitution. And the reproductive liberty amendment will also be on the ballot in November. And similar to well, similar to different to the charter change, this has gone through a thorough. This isn't like four years. You know, someone gets an idea and it goes on. I mean, this has gone through two full bienniums. So it's two two different batches of legislators and now goes to the people and if the people all vote in favor of either either change, the governor cannot veto it. Is that correct? It cannot be vetoed. It would go into that into the Constitution. And luckily, our governor is in support of both of these propositions and has come out with very clear support on them. So. So that means it's up to it's up to you. The voters to do this. You can. It's up to Vermonters. So go online, get registered. It's very easy to do. I did it myself. Not. I've been here less than a year. So I had to do the Vermont registration process. I was really struck by how easy it is. And and and yes, to get out there and vote. I think that and I was also struck by how involved people are at the statehouse just by how we really can like those email addresses that you all have on the on the website. They're really your email addresses. It's not like it goes to a staffer. It goes to you. We do. We do not have any staff. It's all all us. And I think another piece in talking about civic participation is is really messaging and reaching out to your legislators when there is an issue coming up and when you want to see that change happen. But my one note is please don't do the copy and paste emails. They are so much better when we know that it's an actual person on the other end. And we want to hear your feedback. We want to hear your perspective on the legislation that's coming before us. So please reach out by any means necessary. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for taking time to to be here. I know that you probably were hoping to catch a breath or two with the session done and with Pride Month starting. I'm sure you have a million in one event. You have to be probably have a couple of seconds for you to plug one of them. Oh, upcoming events. Well, I think the upcoming event for this weekend would be highlighting pride Montpelier Pride on the State House lawn is happening this Saturday, June 4th from noon to five p.m. Full slate of activities throughout the weekend. Super. Representative Small, thank you very much. Once again, 12 of you will see you or you'll see me at least in two months and in August. So thank you again and we'll see you then.