 So, I'm Gem, although I'm from Southampton, so Make It is our space, our little baby, it's been running for about three years, two to three years now. It came about as an idea back in 2009, my husband and I both worked from home and we found all of our friends from university were all moving back to where they came from and we were left working from home with no friends. And we're quite technical-based people. My husband, Brenda, had heard about Make It Space, it's Hacker Space, it's quite a lot, and decided, yeah, we want to make one. So, the following week we then invited the internet into our flat to hack, basically. I think we had quite a good afternoon of circuit bending and taking apart furbies and lots of things, and it was good fun and we decided yeah, this is something we want to do. So, we started up, first of all, just as an electronics hacking group, which we met in cafes and bars and flats for a number of years, and as we slowly got the interest, we decided it was time to get a space of our own. And we had the Make It Space in mind. So, we sat up in the corner of someone else's warehouse for a while back in 2003. We started off with a small membership and five trustees who could sign on paperwork. And we grew in the middle. And now, this winter just gone, we've moved into a 1,000-foot square foot warehouse on a new laptop, so to say, on our own. So, it's quite good. We're funded mostly by membership subscriptions. We occasionally run big membership drives and Kickstarter campaigns to keep the money coming in. It's obviously not sustainable. We also have several sponsors, Jeremy's company is one. I mean, we're getting there. We're doing good. We've got several groups that our members run, ranging from hardware hacking electronics through to sewing, meeting, baking, costuming. We have a corp-copter group. Lots of things. We now have seven trustees who can sign on paperwork. They're the directors of our company, so we try to incorporate as a charity. We were rejected. We don't have anyone with any knowledge to sort that out. So, we had to become just company limited. We now have 100 members, all paying subscriptions. We have 35 key holders who can just come in and make them space when they really feel like it. We have another 100 or so supporters and friends and sponsors. It's worked out quite well for this little idea five years ago. We obviously have run into some trouble. The biggest one is the knowledge base. We started off just as a pair and eventually five to seven people. We need someone who knows about legal stuff. We need someone who knows about money. Our original treasurer was the one who didn't say no. He happened to be somewhere else in the room doing something else and the other four treasurers went, yeah, you're the treasurer. So, things like that kind of logistics is still quite a problem. Finance is obviously always an issue. Safety and insurance, again, big things that you need to think about. If you're giving people access to big power tools and drills and stuff, then you need to be careful and make sure they know what they're doing. Gender inequality and diversity in general is an issue. We started off from a hydrohacking group. Naturally, there were mostly white men in their 20s to 30s. So, we fought quite hard to bring in other people into that group. I've been running a sewing group down there which has worked out quite well. We've got quite a large number of female members, and then I got asked last week if women were allowed in our wood workshop. So, I think we've still got some work to do, but we're getting there. In total, though, it's been a real success. We've tried to run big group projects, so we've built a life size bigger than a life size. He's remote-controlled. He can do his voice. He just runs around Southampton shooting people, which is good fun. That's brought together, so up to 10 to 15 people with different skills learning new things. I learned how to use circular saw, which is quite good fun. We also run a men's shed, which is this movement out of Australia, so it's all around retired and unemployed men. So, they meet in their daytime in our maker space, which works out quite well for us, because then they pay us to use the space when no-one else is using it. It's basically great. We bring people together and we make awesome things together. Thank you. Gemma is showing her organisational skills spot on five minutes. As part of the live stream, if you tweet with the tag either hashoshud or hashbcsosg, Andy Bennett here will pick up your tweet, so that's a way of getting questions through to the panel if you're not physically in the room. Our second speaker is Laura James from Make Space Cambridge. Laura is one of the founders, and I've heard Laura talk before about some of the challenges of setting up on the legal and health and safety issues. So, knowing her, she's been heavily involved in that. I asked her to particularly cover that issue for us. Your five minutes to talk about whatever you would like to talk about. Who wants to talk about health and safety? I'm one of many. I'm one of three co-tonders, one of 64 founder members who put cash up front to make Make Space Cambridge happen after quite a few years of building community and finding out what people wanted in the region. And now I'm one of 240 members. So, consider me just the representative who happens to be in the room. We are a community-run space, although we do have three directors who look after the non-profit organisation that provides very much a financial and legal framework. For the community-run Make Space in the Middle. We're a 24-7 Make Space. Members have 24-7 access to all of the space and equipment. It's about 350 square metres, and we have quite a lot of equipment. We've got electronics, 3D printing, laser cutting, CNC mill, glasswork, fine-scale metalwork, that's gold and silver smithing, vacuum forming, glasswork, glass kiln, screen printing, computer-controlled knitting, sewing, vinyl cutter, t-shirt press, woodwork, quite a lot of metalwork, lathe, terminal, various other pieces. We have a classroom, which is used for events, hagathons, workshops, talks, all kinds of things. And of course the ever-present kitchen, which we call CakesFace, because cake has always been very important to us. We've been open just over two years now, and we've been stable at about 240 members for the last years. That seems to be our sustainable level. Members will pay us £40 a month for their 24-7 access, and we use that to cover operating expenses, so month-to-month things. For big capital costs, we have a seed funding grant from East England Development Agency that got us off the ground, and we also have industrial sponsors. So most of the big local engineering and IT firms have given us cash to help us buy laser cutters and things, which is a mutual expensive. So odd enough for us, finance actually isn't a problem, cash is not a problem. The main problem we have is that Cambridge does not have many physical spaces in the city centre for such a workshop. So if we do, as our space at some point, it's a block as we develop, which it may at some point in the future, we will struggle to find another space. It's not a cash problem, it's that there is no other decent space. We have a workshop with a concrete floor with three-space power and natural light and venting and all kinds of stuff. It's perfect for us, getting anything else even about the similar isn't possible. So that's one for us, the other is volunteers. We are entirely volunteer run. Everyone who's ever been part of makespace is being a volunteer. And we're not doing too badly. Most of our volunteers, we have some churn in our membership, we have volunteers coming and going. My worst act of volunteers, they were probably a little bit of a distraction, it would be great if we could get some of that off of them. I think to address the point about legal and health and safety, we try to separate our community run bit and the non-profit company bit. So the non-profit company, as I say, provides a framework. We make sure that the bank account is at least as insurance. There are risk assessments that we've dealt with the various bits and pieces and stakeholders we can deal with. The community make decisions about things like shall we get a second laser cutter, what 3D printer should we get, what kind of events do we want to run and so on. And that's been working pretty well for us so far. You do need someone who can do money and who can figure out how to do health and safety and so on. We're actually very lucky. Our space is full of very diverse people, a good range of ages anyway, a good range of ages, gender diversity and racial diversity. We've got a good mix, it's wonderful. But we also have a quality of people who are there for work. We have people who come to the big space as part of their job. We have people who are setting up new businesses and so on. And I think that actually gives us access to quite a few people who are willing to do management type stuff as necessary, which has been good for us. And we've got great advice from local companies and from universities locally when we've needed advice about things like workshop safety. We've had their workshop managers come round and do inspections for us and so on. You can do anything you want in our space, hobby work, make things for a business, start a business and so on. And in our two years we've had some great successes. We've had a couple of businesses start out of make space. Cannybox, which is an awesome 3D printed kind of make your own racing robots start up. They've met at make space and got started in general at prototyping there. And we've had Simprints as well, which is developing identity technologies for the developing world. They built their entire prototype and their early production months in make space and say that they would not be where they are today, which is financed and a team growing up to about 8 people if it wasn't for make space. We've also had existing companies reduce their time to market by using make space prototyping facilities in one case of 18 months to 4 months for their new product introduction times. So things like that help us get local support, which has been great. I don't know if I've covered everything, but that's all I can think of to say at the moment. It's been awesome. Thank you, Laura. I was going to say quickly, we had three aims when we set up. We wanted to raise the profile of engineering manufacturing and show people that it's something that can happen outside China. We wanted to increase local skills, start local businesses, and we wanted to have a cool place to hack. We have done less outreach than we wanted, although we've had lots of adults coming through and we've definitely had people coming and learning new skills. We've done much less with kids and young people than we wanted because that does take structured, managed time and we haven't been able to pull it out with volunteers only other than that. John T. Are you sure you're done? John T. Waring is one of the founders of London Hack Space and I asked him to come along because it is the biggest hack space in the country in the world. I've only looked at the UK statistics. The biggest hack space in the world and he can give a perspective of what happens when you're really successful and what happens when you get really big. John T. Over to you in five minutes. Mostly things go wrong. I'm one of two co-founders of London Hack Space. I'm one of eight current trustees. We call them trustees rather than directors because directors make people think that they should make more decisions and they actually do. As of earlier on today when I checked we have 1,198 members I think and they each pay a varying amount between five and about £100 a month. It's pay what you want. We don't link the amount you pay to anything inside the space so someone who pays them all does not get any more than anyone else they do it because they want to and nobody knows how much any of the member pays. This funds everything for us quite comfortably now. In our current space is our third space. I should say we've been around since January 2009 and our growth since we started has been fairly linear but there's been a few bumps now and then. But our funding is entirely from the members. We received one gram of £5,000 when we first started. That was pure luck to be completely honest. We didn't apply for it. They came to us. And since then all the members have funded all our outgoings which has been great apart from we can plan based on a membership growth which is great. But if we have to buy something large we won't go out for funding. We don't go looking for it. We trust that our membership is a stable base that we should build on rather than trying to get money elsewhere. This is quite different than a lot of the other spaces. I think probably every space here has had some sponsorship in equipment elsewhere which is good. Frankly, we're just idiots. We're not going after it. So our workshop now is about 12,000 sqft. That's about 6,000 sqft inside but there are two floors and 6,000 sqft outside. Our workshop is very similar to what we've heard before. We have a mix of facilities, woodwork metalwork, soft work, desk work, a classroom. I think the only thing that we have that no one else has is a fairly large robotics area. Well, and actually outdoor space, that's fairly uncommon as well. But we also have a similar problem in that our space is amazing where it is now but London has been gentrified at such a frightening rate when our lease expires in three and a half years time. We are not going to be able to stay there. The chances of us affording the rent are just not going to happen. Our current outgoings are I think around, you might know this better than I do, so it's about £10,000 a month. About £10,000 a month outgoings. So it's incredibly expensive for us to operate at all. The main issues we've had with the space as it's grown is that the things that people have taken to be the gold and rules of that space has just stopped working. One by one they've failed. The only one I think we're still doing to this day is meeting on a Tuesday night because all the other nights are terrible. Which is a good idea. But all the other ones, your community gets so large that we split into smaller groups and that just doesn't work for us. We've been saying for years that we wanted more than one space in London. In fact we said actually I remember having the conversation before we even started the space that there should be more than one space in London. Which is why when Tom finally got the south London space off the ground we were quite happy and there's been since then a whole plethora of other spaces that have appeared. Looking after different things and that's brilliant and we want more of that. I do not think that it is a good idea to have one really massive space. It is better to have smaller ones. But at the same time it is important to maintain the cross-discipline nature of what we have. Otherwise you lose all the interesting things. That's what I worry about when we end over the really specialist spaces in London. I had something very important to say which I think you could give up. You have plenty of chance to say later. The other thing that is worth mentioning is many years ago we also set up the Hackspace Foundation which has been at some time very active and some time completely dormant. It is a loose organisation of people from all over the UK that help try and set up other spaces and provide advice. We have friendly lawyers, we have good contacts with industry in certain places and recently it has been used a lot for people coming to us who want to give out licenses to software or sponsorship or things like that because we have contacts in all the spaces. It is easier for us to go and talk to all the spaces than someone else. A lot of this will be kicking off in the next two months so all the spaces will be getting some nice free shiny things. Then also off the back of the Hackspace we also run a large Hackermaker Camping Festival now which runs every two years and is about 1,500 people. That's to bring together all the different spaces. It's not explicitly a Hackspace thing but we feel it's important to have meetings between all the spaces. They can become quite into there and people don't talk to each other as much as they should. I'm not even sure that's the right way to approach it but that's what we're trying for now. That will do for me. Thank you very much. Our next speaker is Tony Fish. Tony is the co-founder of FabLab London. I particularly wanted FabLab London involved because FabLab tend to have a more commercial focus and I went and looked up to contact FabLab London and discovered it was founded by someone called Tony Fish who I've known for about 30 years. So it's good excuse for me and Tony to meet up again. Tony, you have five minutes. You'll have to shut me up in five minutes. I'll go over. Are these in the out? Just making sure. FabLab London. It is slightly different and everything you've heard about the lab is absolutely love. I just want to go back 15 years or so on what happened in software. Software changed subtly because software started to write software and the person, the human, wasn't needed and the reason then kids could start writing apps on iPhones and earn millions of dollars is not because they were gifted coders because actually software was writing software and fairly much software is better now than most humans at writing software. Fantastic. Hardware got completely left behind. Give or take a bit, we know from most of the spaces already they cost shed loads of money to put together. What happened five years ago is the laser cutter came from a million down to 50 grand and now is 10. The 3D printer came from stupid money down to 50 grand now to in fact 500 quid and the CNC milling machines came from a million dollars down to now to grand. What you're now starting to see is machines make machines and that's what we're going for. It's not so much come here hack which is absolutely endorse fantastic skills and I love it and we support absolutely everything and we have loads of people coming in. What we're desperately interested in is getting our machines to make other machines and in the summer we've got a pile of interns and people coming in and they have a remit which is you've got to make a machine for yourself and you've got to make a machine we can give away. Now the lossiness of the system is massive at the moment. A bit like software was when it started to write itself it was sort of 30% pretty good and 70% absolutely rubbish and it's now probably the software is as good as you know it kind of replicates itself pretty well. The machines at the moment it's about a 70% loss you go from something quite big to something quite small it's a bit fiddly the software is not great we're expecting in the next 18 months that loss would be 50% and probably in 36 months maybe 48 months it's going to be 80% pretty good 20% loss and 5 years time it's probably going to be the machine producing machine is going to be as good as. So we've got a different type of philosophy absolutely different skills we've managed to get the kids piece love to share with it it's hell on earth we've got teachers we had 60 teachers in the lab this evening who were coming in to learn not how to code it's how to use the laser cutter how to use the 3D so they can go back not knowing how to use the machine but with an application how do they take it to a history lesson how do they take it to a geography lesson how do they teach maths as part of it and that's what gets them really excited they don't really give a monkeys about computer science and hardware all they care about is the kids and the future of those kids and know they've got our digital skills which can affect them and they need the application not just to piece of coding so we're having lots of fun really encourage anybody to come out of the plate because it's great love everything these guys are doing and this I don't know if you know do they know who you are two inch twos she's the most important person in London she organises like the 30 labs across London and brings them all together and takes them round at once a month and that's massively important she is the goddess of London's labs so happy days yeah bow down she's on the front row as well so it's easy to point out thank you Danny I'm sure questions will come for you as well just because you're that side doesn't mean you won't get asked questions our next speaker panelist Tom Lynch as we've heard founded South London Hat Space and also involved in the open workshop which is this thing and I've carefully written over the word open down South London make a space and the reason I wanted Tom here is particularly to be what's it like being not the biggest hack space or maker space in London you've got five minutes OK I'm not sure I'm going to be able to ask that question right here um this exact moment but I wanted to just talk about where South London make space kind of came from because I kind of got a really weird long history it's actually unfortunately it's history it's almost as long as the hack space has been open which is kind of interesting so it kind of started around September 2011 with a it's not quite clear exactly how it started there's no one that was originally involved in it is still there but it's interesting because it started off with me going to a meeting in a pub where people were just kind of talking about you know we want to have a hack space and I think initially it started its name as Brixton Hack Space and it has interestingly it was connected to Blaine Cook for one of the CTOs XCTL Twitter and people like Brock Kraft and Alex Duchampson so there's quite a few interesting people involved in where we've come from but unfortunately it's not actually that easy setting up these spaces and it requires a lot of commitment and all these people have you know there are other big commitments which is why I guess we know those names but what's interesting is that around that time there was an exhibition called The Power of Making at the Victorian Albert Museum which was curated by Daniel Charney and him and Fidian Warman from the Makers Guild at this meeting it was sorry I'm just looking through our website all of this off the top of my head sorry I think it was around Christmas 2012 dates might be wrong I'm not sure but there was a proposal to have some kind of tinker space is what it was called and that name came from the BNA exhibition where there was a space within that actual exhibition called The Tinker Space and they wanted to kind of have you know kind of like a hack space but for South London it was a distance travelled and also you know as you kind of pointed out the size that it's growing it's just kind of unsustainable and also I guess it gives you a chance to try things in different ways as well to learn from issues that have happened so it kind of just went from there and people started meeting and as these things do they sort of fall apart and stop happening from it and then they come back together and so unfortunately it took a little while before one of the other co-founders of the makerspace Tom Newsom it gets really confusing having so many Tom's in the space but we also have a collection of mighties and other people so it's kind of interesting but yes so myself and Tom Newsom are kind of the main two people we also have a lady called Yulia Tom really is kind of one of those people that really just goes for things and sort of screw the consequences and I'm one of the kind of really conservative like we should really hold back and consider this and have you thought about the consequences but apparently I became a director without really knowing about it when I got a letter through the post saying congratulations from Companies House and then it kind of went from there I did have some foresight that was going to happen so it's just kind of going from there then around this time last year 1st of April we moved into a temporary kind of pop-up makerspace type space which was in a shop front in Hernd Hill which is quite close to where the original pub meeting was in Bricksford and we stayed there for four months just paid the council business rates and nothing else and electric I suppose and it was just really popular we went from zero to about 65 members paying 20 pounds or more a month in that period but then when that ended we needed to find another space and we didn't find one before we had to move out eventually we found one in October last year which is a railway arch literally five metres behind where the shop front was which is convenient and we've been renovating that space since so we're kind of a bit short on cash and it's a really old Victorian railway arch so it has nothing in it so we've been doing quite a lot of work and begging and borrowing from companies thankfully the I'm supposed to mention this but the Greater London Authority which you'd better know as the Merit London's office has kind of donated or sponsored us or whatever you want to call it for further renovation work to complete the second half of it so that's been really fantastic that happened in the last one so that's kind of my little history of making this space and anyone wants to talk about that we can do but definitely on it is mentioned that over at Shop London it's been really useful for us to talk to people and I think it will be interesting to tie that in with the Hack Space Foundation in the future OK, thank you. What I'm going to do is if you want to just say a couple of words for yourself and a workshop because this has come up twice and that would help people and that would take a seat temporarily but it's important to share I've got the thunder, I do My name is Liz Corbyn I am just the organiser of a group called Open Workshop London so I'm very much kind of the facilitator on the ground it spurred out of my PhD which is around Open Access workshops and open source hardware and design which is called Open Workshop Network so the idea is that eventually what we're having in London will be able to go sort of nationwide looking at each different region and trying to find and support the various Hack Spaces fab labs make spaces in general Open Workshop that are within those areas so London is going quite well we have 41 spaces now one just opened so we have 41 spaces that are meeting every month we tour around to a new workshop every month and it's basically we just, it's a physical way that we can all get together and speak about common issues and also ways to support one another Happy days Thank you very much Liz Our last official panellist was going to be Nico's Proneos and I knew Nico's was going to be very tight on making it here he had then found a substitute which is Jonathan Mitchner and looks like Jonathan hasn't made it yet but knowing these things might happen I had a third substitute so Nigel would you come and join us Nigel Rix is from the Knowledge Transfer Network which is charged with basically ensuring knowledge transfers smoothly between universities government and industry and forms part of Innovate UK how many people here know what Innovate UK is one or two it's the government's innovation agency it has a budget of over half of half a billion next year half a billion next year which is used to support the transition of ideas from academic concept into industry stuff and I declare an interest because my company's had several projects funded by them Nigel the reason for asking Innovate UK to be involved was we are very conscious that when we have meetings we get a lot of makerspace and hackspace people coming along and it's surprising how many of our speakers turn out of them had Innovate UK funding so the question is what role does the state have to play in the makerspace and hackspace movement and that's if you've got five minutes to talk about that's why I've asked Innovate UK to take part so I'm third substitute I didn't know I was about to say anything for five minutes Innovate UK Innovate UK is part of the government they were called the technology board they themselves were even heard of that because of the elections so they can't say anything interesting about money but they can answer questions the knowledge transfer network has changed as of last year there used to be 15 knowledge transfer networks they were very much based on various industry sectors or economic challenges so there's knowledge transfer about built environment and energy there's one about materials I particularly work in what's called the applied technologies which are electronics photonics space for some reason is in our area but the technologies are used in other places they're enabling technologies the challenge I've always had with makerspaces it's a nice challenge because I've not solved it but I believe there's something in there somewhere that we do Innovate UK is charged with being responsible for innovation within the UK innovation is a driver for economic growth it is seen as important for industry, for economy that innovation is great the UK has a wonderful position that it's fantastic at invention it is lousy at making any money out of it and I've got a slide which I have which is something like 30 great inventions everyone will recognise where the UK made no money because someone else picked it up so one of the challenges we've got is innovation itself the UK is great at it how do we convert that to economic benefit the life transfer network now is about 170 people strong so it's moved from being national from organisations focused on industry now to a complete cross sector and across the whole of the UK organisation trying to help industry say we look at businesses education is not within our scope of work I'm afraid but we try and help businesses look at ways in which they innovate and generate economic growth I'm afraid it is state aid money being spent by the government the nice thing is they don't take any IP based on what it is it's just very clean money you get a grant to offset the risk of a project and the idea is it will make companies more comfortable and grow so our job is to provide the connections between industry and Innovate UK itself we also by trying to understand what is happening both from the technology side but also from the charge area be able to advise Innovate UK on what projects what funding areas it should be how could IoT be moved forward in the UK my challenge has always been that make a space that are fascinating they remind me so I'm not one of the 20 to 30 or one of the demographic was earlier I'm one of the 60 to 70 year old old folks who remembers the radio when I was at school and I built my first PC having imported the boards from the states and sold them all together there was a motor that was 60 other than 9 and it was a great fun Raspberry Pi for some way is a great throwback those early days where you didn't get it all in a box it all worked you had to do some work before you could get it but how do we work alongside how do we help to make spaces throwing money at make spaces and we have not got any money ourselves but what is the thing that we could do that is of interest we've worked with Andrew and we've funded teas and coffees for various things so that they have just offset the cost of running a weekend type stuff we've worked with some of the Liverpool groups where they have had hack weekends that were focused on trying to bring together say the medical community with the hackers to look at how they could work together and drive a product and that has gone to the point now where they take those into involving VCs and after a bit the top product gets out of support from the space or gets introduced to VCs and moves it forward and that's fantastic because that brings a challenge that's not part of the maker space movement with the maker space experts and a route where it could go forward for greater deployments there are schemes for fees lists that's one of the things about invading UK is it tries to look at areas of funding which are too risky for either venture capitalists or for a bank where most of them are physical real companies I'm afraid rather than individuals because it has to have things that can actually make money but there are feasibility studies which they give money for where it really is you've got a bright idea you haven't got all the money for what you're doing but they will fund take some of the cost when addressing these that can be 60% of the funding cost of just taking the same amount of ideas but it is how can we help do we just stay out of the way don't do anything we've got enough to do elsewhere but the thing I have is the maker space and probably the companies that people represent in the maker space the people in the maker space your innovative people that will help your company make sure they do more innovation themselves that may be one of the areas we're really friendly and honest detail I'm so afraid of learning I can confirm all three of those thank you Nigel thank you for the five minute introductions now we move to discussion if you're again if you're listening online tweet your questions I've got a number of topics that I think we want to cover tonight but before we go down I'll just say any first initial questions or comments out of the audience Mark just on the just on the aspects of a little greater innovation but we're not going to keep it hold with basically I was watching a photograph a few weeks ago about how easy it is where our listing companies have taken over and I'm sure you know what I'm going to come for but basically in America for example if you issue a rights issue it doesn't mean that you've given away control and indeed American companies can maintain only about 5% of the shares but they still maintain control whereas in this country what I'm looking at is once you get beyond the certain size and you want to go that route to raise money you've got problems out here and I just wonder what would you do is that an issue that you've got? it's where you've overfunded basically you're doing a down round within the equity I'm a venture capitalist, I've been for 15 years I invested 68 million last year so it's capital structure stuff if somebody has 5% equity in his own company that's because they've given a preference share and it's an AV difference in this country there are different roles but share ownership is what they're on the stage I think it's so off-topic I'm going to cut in here I've had a conversation with Tony and aren't having the pub afterwards but we've got a lot to cover and I think we're outside direction I'll take two more questions You mentioned that you've broke the rules the five rules the golden rules What are the five? I would have to refer to a wiki on a website somewhere there is a sort of established set of what is known as the hackspace design patterns built on over the years so just for anyone who doesn't know hackspace has been around in a long time they originated in Germany into the late 80s and they've been growing ever since they didn't make it outside Germany until the early 2000 they went to the American and they can't be here much later it's been a long growth but over that time people have documented things they've learned things that you should do some of those things hold true when you're small but as you grow bigger they start to break down and figuring out how to continue those things is an ongoing thing at this point I would say that the London hackspace is as much a social experiment as it is in anything else so it's very hard to figure this stuff out but we figure that us figuring it out means that people can learn from our experience hopefully document it better if you can perhaps talk a bit about it in the part after this To answer the question is your Google hackspace design patterns Some of you mentioned the links that you have with the universities and I've worked in education all my career and in a sense working in an engineering department you have your own kind of hackspace but it isn't public Do you think there is more scope for collaboration between hackspace and their local university because after all the universities are of resources for everyone in the community There is a direct relationship between the universities now at least in some cases not all of them but everyone wants to do it and a lot of the cases now the university has gone this is a great idea we want that too and they've opened up to all the other students so UCL, King's there's at least four or five in London alone and they have essentially gone and tell me you'll have the full list anyway a lot of the members of the hackspaces have been up Oh right UK universities are outside of London as well I was just saying there are some elsewhere in the country as well Jen can I just ask you from Southamptons Southamptons has been interesting because we have two universities one very science and technology based one very media based and our science based university I think several times now has approached us and said what you're doing is fantastic can we have one of what you've got please and we've said well your students are welcome to come now you're welcome to come and have a look please give us some money that would be great but they kind of we've talked back and forth and then what usually transpires is that they want something like we have but purely to their staff and students which then obviously we're not interested in so it's been I went to a lot of meetings with Southampton University to talk about them supporting us as a mega space I think possibly before we even got started and also after then and there was a lot of discussions with lots of people around the table and nothing really came of it what the general conclusion I got after I think six or seven meetings was they wanted to make their own one in the students union building so that potentially people from the public could go to it but as kind of second class citizens and that they wanted it to be extremely well funded with like millions of pounds worth of equipment and dedicated people there all the time to make sure that the machines were used properly and various all sorts of bureaucracy and stuff oh they wanted staff we don't have staff, we remember right so it was a very different thing that they were proposing and we've not had any luck in trying to get them to support us so one of the things that may come out this evening is the ability of shared experience of how you approach universities because one way to meet up universities is here's another university that's done it better Nigel sorry there's eight fab labs in the UK of which five of them are already university based there will be 20 fab labs by the end of the year there's nox 12 coming online at all university based fab labs can we also add to that so I work at a space called the Institute of Making which is that UCL and it's an open access workshop for UCL staff and students so you're completely right I think academia is very conventional the way that they think is if there's a core funded space then it should be able to go first and foremost to the students and staff I think there's new models coming out where they will kind of akin to an open access day that fab lab has on a Saturday so there'll be a model where some days are for university members and then another half of the week is for open access public membership and in terms of outside of London so there's advanced Imperial Hackspace and Institute of Making here in London but also Sheffield Cranfield is trying to open one Open University is exploring the idea so it's Dundee is exploring the idea there's a lot of interest in academia but they want it for themselves there's one thing to say UCL does have open days as you well know they do have public open days but it's a bit weird because you can go along and see it's like this is great you can't come here which is a shame I know early on in the discussions it was there will be hopefully some depending on who hurts themselves depends if they lock down or they open up as they forget that somebody hurt themselves they open up again and somebody gets hurt and they shut the alley you've got very strong relations with the university we're totally independent of them you are totally independent but you have a good boss constructive relationship we have a good relationship with the university I think however there is a fundamental conflict of interest the university has its own goals and one of the things they want from us is they want our amazing interdisciplinary network that's the value they see in us it's not the kit, it's not the space it's the people but they're not willing to create space in the university that they would actually open up on the kind of terms that we're open 247 from members with open events as well within the structure one of the reasons that we're an independent organisation is because Cambridge has more than one university and we want to be open to everybody town, gown, both universities people from outside the region everything so we have to be independent for that reason there's a question about that I'll come to you in a moment Nigel, is this something you, your whole job is networking universities and other organisations is this something where Katie Evans could it yes if someone came to us and said look we'd like some help we want to try and draw these links across we have got national coverage not even one person nor none but let us know we're interested in how to do that I think there is a thing that is philosophically a makers space or hackspaces about the individuals doing something because they enjoy it and profit is not the biggest motivation directly I did hear the airspace people setting up what they call the maker lab but it was almost like a prototyping workshop for the local companies and what they were trying to do is if we get this kit together it provides something that's a useful resource for local companies to come in and use and we'll call it a makers space I don't know how far that's got but this has kind of been building a lab for it but it wasn't the same thing as people funding it to help each other and I have one working example of this actually being at the university working well which I must have just chaffed it with the back of the room is that our biohacking group has really good ties with which university is that? I can't actually remember it's not UCL, I always think it's UCL it's not is it King's but they actually fund they have funded our groups to go out to the US they go to these lab so they come to our lab and work together they enter competitions together there is a lot of strong ties there and that's something that I can see happening more often but they're not putting many into the space directly it's into the members which is interesting I think that's more because of the members the group actually has some influence over it well actually they approach this independently I've got a question but I want to move on I'll come back to you I want to move on and address one particular issue because talking before the meeting it's a common theme that comes up which is the challenge of actually maintaining a community particularly when you are a member run Jen, would you kick us off on that because I know that's something that's been dear to your heart and a big challenge down in Southampton yeah, it helps me to speak to me first again yes so we sort of the initial group people I think that we had together we were all very much enthusiasts about making making but we didn't have much knowledge in how to run groups a couple of us were scout leaders but nothing big I guess I wish you all along has been how to get volunteers first of all in to run parts of the make space and then to get people to volunteer basically we always want to do outreach get into the community spread the word that we're here and support the doing and we have a membership of volunteers and we have found that on the whole it's the same six to ten people always doing the same events and because of the dialect we've built for example we keep getting invited to these conventions and it's always the same five people going to these events and these conventions have like a season so from I don't know October through to April every couple of weekends we have people doing the same thing in a different hall which has been quite hard work and we want to do we want to get out there and do these things but it would be nice if we could encourage more people to take on some of that I don't think we'll try anything Tom can I bring you in here because one of the things that struck me when you talked was the fact that none of your original founders are still in South London which is a bit different from the other and that strikes me that you may have got some experience of building and maintaining and keeping a community that's worth understanding why have you had that over in Chile? I think it's because it was such a long period of time as I said before because people had such a focus on other things mainly work commitments and things like that whereas I suppose some of us more gullible people have ended up being broke into looking up I think we have currently we call them trustees as well five directors of the company at the moment I think we're going to go back to three we're not firing on, they're just people moving away but I think it's interesting that it does always seem to default back to us so I don't think that we've got it right I just think it's just what happens but we have become a bit more wise to things so for example public events we signed up we were the only place in all of the south of England that signed up for the recent Arduino Day and we signed up for it coincidentally on the same day as another event that we had so we had all committed trustees had committed to go to one event and the members had to pull together and it worked out really well but it is difficult and I definitely agree with that 10% rule where about 10% of people really commit and help out as the rest of them it's just they're using the space rather than necessarily putting in a great amount to it I think I think that's just the way it is people didn't sign up I suppose for volunteering and if they want to make it better they can take it and bought by the horns if you like and make it better if they don't then it kind of stays the way it is so as a local Lambeth Country Fair is an event that is locally to us soon and we've decided if no one else is going to organise it then we're just going to not do it because it's a lot of work and we're still building our space right now so we're still kind of organising all that and having all the kind of deadlines for that to kind of go through at the same time so I think one of the challenges described as the number of people who come up and say you really ought to do this and turning it round and saying no you do it, we're here to enable it you've talked about the whole problem of maintaining community, breaking down when you get to your size have you got anything that you that you could pass on to others coming up through that route? There's the opposite of what you described when you say we've always thought we're well volunteered I think you should do that because we're well volunteered and that works really well when you're very small but what turns out of that you have a weird social change that comes with that and won't suggest anything that they can't do and they might have a great idea but they're too scared to say anything so we've banned that phrase now we just stopped doing it because it became so harmful in certain situations it was not worth doing but at the same time we do have an issue with getting people to do stuff there's something that I learned a couple of years ago which is talking to a lot of people from space all around the world and I know it doesn't entirely hold true all over the UK but once you go over about 100 members you start seeing about 30% in the space in any given month and that doesn't mean active in terms of maintaining the space it means active is incoming to the space and then off that you're going to get a subset which is about 10% which is what you've seen already which will actually do anything and it seems to just hold true it's just the size of the groups that have roughly set things So those are kind of an interesting empirical rule with collaborative groups which says that 1% are creators to have genesis of activities and ideas 9% are curators and the rest of the 90% are consumers and things like that What extent do you find that 9% is useful and how do you get them to kind of engage your wider community It's difficult to judge how much that would actually line up with our numbers without running the stats in it Also how roughly does that line up with different people and different sides I don't know with other people I'm curious to see Actually there's one thing also and 30% numbers from spaces where they have enough people that people will keep paying even if they don't use the space very often If you have a high entry, bar to entry that will not be true for you at all 40 pounds is exactly So it's it, they'll all stop paying that whereas people for us will just drop it down to 5 Nigel I suppose one of the things that when we start any activity we start a new group because of something you've been through you can often in case it dies and we kill it off and you start to get something else Or you can get up to 100 people signing up on websites and start to get active Once you get above a certain bit it's best to start to fragment it down with members of Cambridge Wireless which is a loose association of people One thing they did, they started very much as around mobile telecoms whereas now they've actually fragmented it down into lots of different groups and it's like it goes where the makerspaces do as they get bigger do you form subgroups which say look at different things In terms of someone's going to kill me In terms of hell I suppose the KKN now runs a battle an event every day By that it means that we've got the back office capability of putting it up on event prime, collecting things We can even supply the badges and if you're really interested in that or so that The connections to industry if you want those either directly within the particularly from external to that we are very interested to see what we can do to help The thing that I would love to be able to try and tap into is things like 3D printing is a great hype Half the industry believes that with a 3D printer you can not only make your chocolate cake but you can also print your ear and it will make anything you could possibly think of and within industry there is a great misunderstanding almost of what you actually can and what you can't do That's a big challenge because we get people saying I would love to 3D print the case and you look at saying let me find someone who can help you just say what is practical what isn't practical If it was trying to tap into that knowledge and connect companies locally with it or get to it A making space open day for the local industry would be fantastic We would really support that very, very actively So just on that Barclays have just given us a stack load of cash for taking through every single Barclays branch manager in London at first through the Fab Lab to train them on a 3D printer on a laser cutter so when they go to their businesses and the business is saying we want to buy one of these things they actually start to understand it We've just taken through all the partners Byrd and Burth doing exactly the same We've got two on the law firms doing exactly the same We've got a completely different model We don't charge members not interested It's just a madness of trying to do tiny little things for us We want to try and disseminate the information and get people as many people through the lab playing with the machines We're not going for anybody trying to make products You just haven't got enough time You can't need your own machines It's trying to introduce people into those machines and get them to understand the implications and actually see where it's going to go and suddenly start to understand that all Formula One engines are 3D printed If you come to our lab I'll print you a chocolate No problem at all, I'll then print you a conductive t-shirt We'll show you at work in We did the cradian for one of the skulls at the Harley Street guys We bother what people come and use the machines for One of the guys printed it yesterday they're doing a Formula One engine so we're actually this evening it's a 65 hour print that's started which is studded off so they're going to be in on Monday to pick it up and take it off to a show Happy days because it starts to show what's possible I love it I think that's a very good lead into one of the other areas we want to cover tonight where is the boundary between this is my hobby, it's free, it's fun it's open Laura talked for example about the two businesses that you've had come out and the fact that some people this is their job in the space Tony explicitly It's interesting because volunteers, what we say to them is you're going to build a business so the people coming in to run the education groups they're building a business that they're going to build into an education they're just using our space as the mechanism to build it, build your own community show people how it works and build a business out of it we've got fire tech camp coming in a six-week programme through the summer getting kids in again, it's a business built within the business totally enabled by getting access to machinery I love it We don't draw lines in fact I think that's going to be an important thing for us I get asked a lot, by the way if you set up a hagg space or make space you'll have more people calling you to try to research you that you can build but I don't ask because a lot of people don't know that people doing the most interesting things cannot say it's a hobby if it might be a business or a business they don't know they're doing something because it's challenging or they have an idea or they have a problem or they've just met someone and they want to try doing something together they don't know what it is and we don't ask because asking would stop some of that creativity It's limitations which we find incredible some people are coming with an idea and it pushes the machines to the very edge and they actually get beyond the edge and we start hacking the machines to make things work I have a quick question I've actually had the chance to meet the tech shop CEO so he seems to have a slightly different model do you see any of that happening over here? No I can't remember his name the guy based in the valley they wanted to actually start one here it was like a 20-30 man I met him and he said he's going to start one here I've never seen anything here so it's kind of curious he's been trying for about 3-4 years I was just curious why hasn't that happened yet do you have any insights because if you go there it's brilliant it has compared to hackers based on other places it's awesome even at the one in the valley it's awesome but the thing is like that if you want to use anything they charge you if there is a model that ever exists here why doesn't that happen here what are your thoughts on that? step back a little bit into site's background so he was at 177 University if anybody knows that it's a place where Google was founded LinkedIn was founded, PayPal was founded and a number of other famous valley based companies went through them and what he did very clearly his family owns the building and they said ok we'll give you a tiny amount of rent and give us 1% of the company he does exactly the same model and that's exactly their model which is come in here, we'll give you cheap desks we'll take per cent of your company, happy day so it's a funding model they are interested at all in the people the interesting community it's a straight financial plan and it's brilliant, I love it it's a very different model but it works very well question do you have a link really? yes definitely Lauren you've worked with our companies to make things I mean there isn't informal links so we try to get pointers to our members to companies that will help to scale up so you make 1 or 2 or 4 you even make maybe 50 or 100 in the space but then if you're scaling up you need to go out so we do have links with local manufacturing companies who will be able to find themselves a scale and we have links to local groups that help you with manufacturing and vice service we're not really a suitable space for a scale manufacturer and everyone understands that do you do small batch production we're a space where people can do whatever they want so yes people do do very small batch production but sooner or later they find that there's too much content from the machines or whatever and they want extra specialisation our kit is prototype in kit it's not manufacturing kit so if you happen to be doing something like candy box which luckily is like the car most of it then you can sort of do it and you'll go perhaps sooner or later one thing to add to that briefly and it's broad enough so we have a rule that if you are running your business from the space we ask you to try and find somewhere else because we just cannot deal with that number of people the number of people we get getting in touch saying well you've got really cheap desks it's not the way it works you can say that the space is sort of like a third space it's not your house, it's not your office it's somewhere in the middle you go there to play and you don't go there to start your business you don't go there to do these things you go there and play and if the business falls out the side or you change career or something that's great go and do that we will support you all the way and we have the contacts for you to go to these places afterwards but that's not where you do it's not fair to take to run your business and profit off it when other people are doing this for free other people are going there just to play so that's it I would say that she's very similar so for instance one of the businesses that has reduced its production time to produce I think it makes space it's staff member, one of them is one of our most active volunteers so we get back from that but generally we do also have a similar thing someone is running a serious level of production and it's interfering with the communal use of the space that we tell them to take it somewhere else Sal I was a member of a space for a year so it was very interesting community that I noticed how things were running particularly that's my question to all of you what is your approach in regards to acquiring new equipment because there are different kinds do you buy based on what would attract the most amount of members what would be the most useful for most amount of existing members do you buy it based on whoever is the loudest champion the type of equipment that is going to be and what would you decide to buy do you buy the most expensive one or the one that you can afford that is expensive that members wouldn't have access to otherwise or you buy something that is new range or cheap just to have that piece of equipment there I think all of those are valid because between all of you whether you have the same approach I am going to take a sample because we ask everyone to take a look at Tom how do you go about trying to decide what to buy some of it is donated stuff some of it is like the bandsaw we kind of put money together which is kind of an active basis approach we've kind of been I've been given the type of gift of the guy I suppose trying not to brag trying to get companies to give us stuff is not easy but some of them have seen the benefit that we've got a kind of troatech which you guys are working with and not to make a hitachi we're going to kind of announce some news through Open Workshop next week about that so I can't remember them all bitfolk and I can't remember them all but sorry to those that I missed but there's plenty of companies that are willing to help and it's possible to find them all the time but I think forming into these groups like UK Hacksmith Foundation and Open Workshop London will allow us to go to those companies and say this is how many members we have with how many Facebook or whatever it is that they're particularly interested in and how many people we can reach and give those tools to and try and use that as a way to try and get more things for us the same way that we have to do John T at the other end of the spectrum we have done it and always have done it as a pledge system so we'll get equipment donated by members sometimes we've never had equipment from sponsors or anything but we will ask that the members put in 50% of the cost of whatever it is and any member can say I want something random and if enough people are willing to put in enough money to go with it then that's fine this generally works really well because people are willing to put in money and they've got enough interest for it so things like buying a new laser cuts me trying to buy an x-ray machine I still haven't found enough people to back that one but I would love an x-ray machine if you would get rid of one but that works really well for us oh yeah that was just about the manufacturing connection because I read about China is trying to build 100 megaspaces in the air trying to connect megaspaces to manufacturing and there's a kind of yeah I guess there's a kind of dodgy connection where you get rid of the kind of young people and do stuff and then people coming in producing that stuff on a big scale and you know they're calling it that and I just wanted to do something more about that what I'm going to say we finished with the previous thing because I actually wanted to hear what they had to say I just want you to have time running out I want to take you a couple of you will speak, Thomas Smaller if you were Laura and do you have anything particular to say about buying the kit? Most of our kit so far has been donations I think we're quite lucky in that we've got a few members who perhaps they've outgrown their garden shed so we take whatever big tools they've got we sticker on loan from sticker on under the sort of acknowledgement that it might get damaged that that's okay so I think that's where most of our stuff has come from so far we did win a 3D printer though which is quite cool our first 3D printer was in we generally look for more than one person wanting it so if it's a larger group and we look for consensus to build on what it is exactly that's wanted but we also look for people to pledge their time it's not money things you do and money in the bank to play stuff we look for a group of people who's vision-sized to say to pledge that they will look after this kit they will maintain it, they will train people and so on and if there is consensus around what the model is that we should get then generally we go ahead but we kind of volunteer times the most guess results so we kind of try to buy us a little bit towards that and also we do ask the people who want that piece of kit to take on the task of things like writing a risk assessment for it and that fills the sheets and goes pretty quickly we do review this and stuff as well we'll be able to help but we make people put a bit of effort there okay thank you for doing that let's turn to the question about China Tony I'm fascinated with China because America are leading the way on this everyone says manufacture is going to China manufacture is going to China what most people have woken up is China is incredibly good at making components so go buy the components and it could be actually a board so it could be a driver board you buy the driver boards in but you manufacture locally and it's the difference of the machines once you've got the machines on site you don't have to send off your complete production run you go and buy the things in local sourcing and local manufacture this whole idea that you're going to just bring in a load of air and a box and packaging from another part of the world it's an old model, it's a really old model which is being broken at every single level America is leading the way and China is finding that trade relationship we're trying very very frustrating and they are building up local manufacture massively and the rest of Europe is starting to follow it by fast it's not me, that's what we're doing community follow up question for you one of the things that's been noticed in the start up scene is the hardware manufacturing and one of the things that seems to be intersectional factory space kind of thing and hardware incubators coming up do you see that happening in the UK hardware yes it's manufacturing it's kind of following up on what he just said the challenge is like I totally agree with what John did what he's done which is you're not allowed to build a commercial product through our lab we allow you to build one we've got two floors above us with 120 desks that's an incubator going to there you don't need to be in a hackspace to make your product you need to be in there for four hours do an iteration, go back, do your design work, come back you don't need to be in the lab to build so it's getting a different mentality desks, it's a waste of time you want utilisation of machines to be near 100% because that means you're building stuff I want to, we're near again for time we're going to finish at 8 sharp 2 minutes before the end or so I'm going to ask you for one sentence that you want for people to take away from this meeting so you've got things to think about one issue that we sort of just touched on here is what we might call the issue of discipline how do you manage people going off the rails whether it's, I'm taking over that they make a space to print thousands from my business or occasion you have destructive members and this is all part of how you maintain a community and you may want to spread the question out a bit further but how do you deal with, if you're going to be open to everyone how do you deal with when you get someone who can potentially wreck a community in there and how do you manage that and I think I'm going to actually look to Laura because she's so first of all community management is a discipline, it's a profession now so if you don't know how to do it it's hard for someone who knows what they're doing I think this we try to handle it by having a very lightweight framework but we do have a framework so we're sort of open to everyone everyone can come and try to be a member but if we get someone who looks at induction like they're going to be extremely disruptive we won't let them in we've only actually had to do that once but we have that there and we will get and if we have problems we'll deal with it so we have a framework which lets us manage things and which so far touch wood it's working right, that's a framework which means that we do a fairly heavy induction which includes quite a lot of stuff about community we have guidelines to what the community behaviours should look like, they're very lightweight but they're there and we do try to enforce that so that the space is accessible for everybody, not just a core set of classic hack space people and I think we probably diverged a little bit from some of the hack space design patterns in that but also I would say we are we have a great diversity of membership and quite a lot of hack spaces do as well so yeah, a lightweight framework and a few people who are willing to enforce it and a culture of shared responsibility so far, via community management in that sense, do you go check out I can send some book references from it but it's something which is better known now than it was I'd like to pull Jim in Jim, I'd like to pull you in because I'm very conscious as a member myself that so make it is going through that transition where it's just getting a bit bigger and the so make it rule used to just be a hey, just be awesome that was the rule and now I actually had to put a few more sort of bit of shape around to be awesome we might just talk about where so make it is going through the transition we are in a very interesting place where we used to be a group of 10 to 20 friends and now we're moving to actually, if I'm the key holder for the night I might not recognise one person in the room which has been a bit of a shock to the system and yeah we're going through this phase where we have to start thinking actually it's not a group of friends it's a group of people with very dangerous equipment and some of these people might be a bit big headed and take up too much room or they might spray paint the floor or it's something that might not matter to them but to us, if they're not looking out for the space currently we need to think about it so it's we've moved into our new larger space in January, it's been something we've been looking at a lot more and we are having problems with it we do have a set of rules like I say, it used to be awesome which I think comes from noise bridge in San Francisco but we have had to sit down and look at our rules, we have a list of maybe 10 maybe a bit more so first rule is don't be on fire these are now actually are a piece of paper in the maker space which we haven't had to have before was that first rule based on a problem that you had? it came from like this, normally called rule zero it's on this point so we've had to put these rules on a piece of paper in the actual space which we've not had to do before we have to make people be aware of a way to behave when they sign up as a member which again we've not really done too much of before so yeah, it's something we're definitely exploring and having to think about literally when I in my experience of running our space it's been the drafting of a key set of principles sort of not many and to be quite raw but eight principles is really really fundamentally important and then during an induction we have quite a lengthy induction process that is really only 50% about how to operate a belt sander safely and 50% of it is hammering home the idea that if you're going to be a member here it's a shared responsibility to work within and be a positive part of this shared ethoson of these principles and really beyond that it's been self-policing and we've scaled up over the past year we've doubled in membership size and I think in that doubling we've only had one instance where we felt someone wasn't self-regulating themselves properly so it's about creating and agreeing to those principles yeah, we've instigated two things which is the experience of running an innovation warehouse for eight years which is the coffee cup and toilets number one if you're seeing putting a coffee cup down you don't wash it up any member goes up to them taps on the shoulder wash it up if you're cool doing it basically your license drops you can't get on access to the machines second one is the toilets if the toilet is dirty don't come and tell me that dirty wash it up and if you're not prepared to be one of the members doing that reality is the rest of the stuff cleaning machines is the easy bit after you get those bits and we've gone through the absolute basics coffee cups and toilets if you're not prepared don't bother joining I'd be interested to know what the induction processes for the different places are I can't join in Friday because I've heard that someone quite lengthy I've been asked Liz probably John T because you've been there a lot of time when you've got a huge Mac space what are the key things you're trying to achieve during your induction induction induction we are a lot more radically open than most spaces to become a member of the Mac space you can sign up online you can register a card online if you're lucky and you can come to the space and you can start using the space without being inducted by anyone you will get a list of rules and things and that's about it however the heavier machinery the things that you might damage or might damage you they get turned away by a member card and you must be trained on those things we are actually probably going to be rolling out a very lightweight induction fairly soon but that's actually worked remarkably well for us as long as you make sure that people understand what they should be telling other people not to be doing these things it does become somewhat self-policing but that's quite loudly there so I would suggest that you have an induction and I would suggest more strongly that you have a code of conduct to start with it's great to have some rules about simple things but a code of conduct that the trustees or directors or whatever they are can call people out on and get rid of them is very important not many spaces have had to ban people I know I think in the UK I think four have actually had to ban people you've had to ban people not that bad but the ones that need to be banned need to be banned that has been discussed a lot of people are very uncomfortable with that if some of these guys turn up in your space you'll be blacklisting Laura do you want to add anything to the common demand dungeon? induction is about 90 minutes it is about 50% in fact about community that you might not get that impression we insist on a credit card we check a mailing address for you to check that you actually have a physical address we take first graph and we file it we also give the inductors the chance to change their mind they have a 24 hour kind of reflection period so if they had anyone in the induction that they feel unable to tell in the light sorry you're not coming in they can still actually stop themselves when the person is in the room they don't want to let that person in yeah so it's pretty intense how often do you do your inductions? as often as volunteers are able to it's usually about one a week probably on average it might be better more than one every 10 days I probably should say that we do say that people should at least come on a tour but it's not the forced thing so people do slip through I think there's lots more we could discuss we're coming to the end of our time thank you all for listening our panellists each one sentence they want people to take away from here and I'm going to start to start because I can feel the laser eyes hitting me Nigel we start this way and go the other way as a general being that have the last word Nigel what would you like one sentence what would you like people to take away? we are winning and keen to help we don't want to to kill off anything from within the major spaces so when we are offering to help ask for something that we want it's no good us turning up on a doorstep we're here to help, I did that just part of my job one sentence that you're out about lots of clauses promise not full stops can I just have one personal request? yes electronics within the UK is all pervasive it is actually invisible now the UK has a great strength in electronics there is no government policy for electronics there is aerospace there is automotive electronics is not considered as an area that needs tons and tons of help one of the things that would help me is anything that you know of which is fantastic makes up why UK electronics is fantastic those facts that you'll know from your members these people too ok that's it everyone's going to have to have a very short sentence Tom your short sentence you want people to go away I just wanted to say I come from an art design background and I know that this is not necessarily that for them but these spaces do have a border than just technology programming but that's obviously clear but that's where some of the spaces really thrive or are differentiating and I think it's interesting to see how that across London and across the UK is allowing there to be 41 spaces or whatever it is great thank you Tom it wasn't 27 but it was more than one sentence Tony we're at bank station it's four minutes from Margate it's 90 seconds from Exit 9 at bank station and about three minute walk from mansion house it's open all day Friday come join in Liz I just want to highlight the importance of I think there's a huge importance for all of our spaces to better link up and communicate with one another because we can learn a huge amount from each other and about what we're experiencing and how we're doing things Johnty starting a hackerspace is not as hard as we've made it seem and you shouldn't do it and also if you'd like to give some I know this is the fourth sentence now if you would like to contribute to hackspaces across the country come talk to me or any of these people we can help you out Laura most of these spaces are run by volunteers if you're going to ask something of those volunteers think about what you're giving back to the community Jen last one we're makerspaces so we're a community of makers and we come together and make all sorts of things thank you thank you to all our speakers to those who thought they were speakers before they got here and to the two who actually got wrote in thank you very much I hope you all found this a very useful panel